I dont get it.

[_LiveFree_]

21 hours ago, DaVinci said:

Then leave? Let him respond how he wants to. 

You're retarded. Stop responding to me. 

[D.D.]

17 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

You're retarded. Stop responding to me. 

That's not an argument.

Try again without your verbal abuse.

[neeeel]

18 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

You're absolutely right that there can't be any progress until that emotional connection to what happened to you is made. If you were to make a whole "my parents were terrible" speech, how would it go?

lack of love or care, lack of help to get me through problems ( actually, they often made things harder/worse). Emotionally distant, physical punishment for first few years of life, scapegoating, fundamental us v them ( parents v children) mentality when it came to child rearing

[DaVinci]

6 minutes ago, neeeel said:

lack of love or care, lack of help to get me through problems ( actually, they often made things harder/worse). Emotionally distant, physical punishment for first few years of life, scapegoating, fundamental us v them ( parents v children) mentality when it came to child rearing

I'm sorry those things happened to you. When you think about those things is there still an emotional component to them? Does talking about them bring back the same emotions you had as a child during those situations.

[neeeel]

Just now, DaVinci said:

I'm sorry those things happened to you. When you think about those things is there still an emotional component to them? Does talking about them bring back the same emotions you had as a child during those situations.

Thats the thing. Not really. A bit of anger maybe,if I think about particular incidents. In therapy I am very dispassionate, speak in a monotone, rarely show emotion about anything, I have cried about twice in 2 years. 

[DaVinci]

5 minutes ago, neeeel said:

Thats the thing. Not really. A bit of anger maybe,if I think about particular incidents. In therapy I am very dispassionate, speak in a monotone, rarely show emotion about anything, I have cried about twice in 2 years. 

What incidents still elicit anger? You don't have to tell me here, but it's something worth exploring. 

Why is the conversation in therapy so monotone? Because you've already worked through the issues? If that was the case, then would you still need to go to therapy at the rate that you do? Or is the conversation monotone because you haven't touched the heart of the matter in regards to your parents? 

[neeeel]

Just now, DaVinci said:

What incidents still elicit anger? You don't have to tell me here, but it's something worth exploring. 

Why is the conversation in therapy so monotone? Because you've already worked through the issues? If that was the case, then would you still need to go to therapy at the rate that you do? Or is the conversation monotone because you haven't touched the heart of the matter in regards to your parents? 

Good questions. Its monotone because thats the way I maintain control, I think. As long as I keep everything distant and unemotional, I dont have to confront anything or anyone. I guess its safer that way. And I dont know how to get past that.

[DaVinci]

23 minutes ago, neeeel said:

Good questions. Its monotone because thats the way I maintain control, I think. As long as I keep everything distant and unemotional, I dont have to confront anything or anyone. I guess its safer that way. And I dont know how to get past that.

What would happen if you didn't maintain control? You mentioned there are still areas where you feel angry. Would you blow up if you stopped trying to maintain control? Is it possible that you don't feel comfortable getting really angry at the therapists office?

[neeeel]

Just now, DaVinci said:

What would happen if you didn't maintain control? You mentioned there are still areas where you feel angry. Would you blow up if you stopped trying to maintain control? Is it possible that you don't feel comfortable getting really angry at the therapists office?

no, I dont feel comfortable getting emotional at all in the therapists office.

 

[_LiveFree_]

Just now, neeeel said:

no, I dont feel comfortable getting emotional at all in the therapists office.

 

Next time you're in therapy, talk about that.

[neeeel]

1 minute ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Next time you're in therapy, talk about that.

yes i will, thank you

[_LiveFree_]

2 hours ago, D.D. said:

That's not an argument.

Try again without your verbal abuse.

don't join in on the retardation. He has a problem with me and was being passive aggressive. I wasn't making an argument. I was making it clear I have no desire whatsoever to engage with him at this point. It's also why I've put him on ignore. 

Don't use #NotAnArgument unless you have bigboy panties on. You'll ruin it for the rest of us.

Interesting how you didn't pick up on the passive aggression.

[_LiveFree_]

Just now, neeeel said:

yes i will, thank you

You have a lot still going on. The reason you have lot's of knowledge plus intelligence yet no results is because you are still emotionally detached from what has happened to you. Make that connection and you'll start to see things change. It's extremely scary, but you have to.  I'd spend all of your time in therapy trying to reattach yourself to your emotions. They are not irrational.

[neeeel]

Just now, _LiveFree_ said:

You have a lot still going on. The reason you have lot's of knowledge plus intelligence yet no results is because you are still emotionally detached from what has happened to you. Make that connection and you'll start to see things change. It's extremely scary, but you have to. 

i think this is what my therapist is pointing to as well. 

[_LiveFree_]

25 minutes ago, neeeel said:

i think this is what my therapist is pointing to as well. 

Then you know what to do.  Get to it. 

[DaVinci]

59 minutes ago, _LiveFree_ said:

don't join in on the retardation. He has a problem with me and was being passive aggressive. I wasn't making an argument. I was making it clear I have no desire whatsoever to engage with him at this point. It's also why I've put him on ignore. 

Don't use #NotAnArgument unless you have bigboy panties on. You'll ruin it for the rest of us.

Interesting how you didn't pick up on the passive aggression.

My comment to you was about the way you were approaching Neeeel. You were concluding he wasn't putting in effort when he clearly is. You made a claim about him you couldn't support and I told you to not engage him if you didn't like the way he was responding. 

Ironic then that you put me on ignore when you don't like the way I'm responding. 

[Spenc]

I'm curious if you are an introvert or an extrovert?

 

I'm also wondering, was it always this way?  Were you able to make friends in kindergarten, intermediate, high school?  When did it become an issue for you?

 

I'm also curious, assuming you had friends in high school that you hung out with, or in college, what happened to those relationships that they are no longer around?

 

Also, of the few people you said you spend time with, what do you think of the other friendships (or perhaps marriages/romantic relationships) that they have, to the extent that you are knowledgeable about their other relationships?  As an example, when I first met a co-worker, he wanted to engage me socially, which was fine.  One thing I noticed shortly after overhearing some calls he made with friends during work hours, was that a lot of his friendships were kind of based on getting something out of the other person, which put up red flags and demotivated me to hang out with him much.  For example, he had a friend who worked at a major sports retail store, and called his friend to inquire about having that friend use his discount to purchase him something.  He also suggested "we should get together for drinks or something" as if to imply that the call was not motivated purely for asking the favour, but to also be social. These types of calls and conversations were common for him, so needless to say, I didn't see friendship with him as this overwhelmingly positive prospect for me. And as such, I put out some negative vibes and eventually we just kind of went our separate ways in terms of a social relationship outside of work.

[D.D.]

3 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

don't join in on the retardation.

Don't use #NotAnArgument unless you have bigboy panties on. You'll ruin it for the rest of us.

Claiming that I'm joining in on the "retardation" or that I don't wear "bigboy panties" is passive aggressive behaviour - indirect expression of hostility.

You do not have the authority nor my respect to tell me what I can join in on or what phrases I cannot use - that's the kind of authoritarianism we fight against.

Please note that your statements are also not arguments.

 

3 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

He has a problem with me and was being passive aggressive. I wasn't making an argument. I was making it clear I have no desire whatsoever to engage with him at this point. It's also why I've put him on ignore.

You claim to "have no desire whatsoever to engage with [DaVinci]", yet you communicated to him using verbal abuse.  Your logic has failed.  If you're not going to communicate with him, why insult him then try to block him?  I suspect it's because you knew your behaviour is inappropriate.

You also claim "I wasn't making an argument" when you insulted DaVinci - then it is true that your statement was "not an argument" and people are correct to point this out to you.

 

 

Here's where the problem originally started:

On 2017-05-18 at 0:55 AM, _LiveFree_ said:

This doesn't make any sense to me. And are you going to actually give an effort here or not? These short posts are a waste of time. 

You were dissatisfied with how neeeel was responding in his thread.  You were first confused, then claim he wasn't putting effort into this thread, and finally claiming the short posts are a waste of time - all without defining:

• what you were confused about
• what constitutes "effort"
• why short posts are a waste of time

This is neeels thread and if you're dissatisfied with it, you're impatience is not going to help neeeel communicate what is clearly a difficult subject for him - this is why DaVinci recommended you to leave and allow neeel to respond how he wants to.  He was direct with you about the problem he had with you - that's quite the opposite of the passive aggression that you claim he was behaving like.  He was being assertive with you - this does not give you the privilege of calling him names.

 

Where is the freedom in Freedomain Radio in you're behaviour?  I hope you take the time to understand my arguments - the evidence is clear.

[Spenc]

On 2017-05-15 at 4:32 PM, neeeel said:

For some reason I am reluctant to answer this.

I would think that he was probably right, that I was just a whiny pussy, and stupid to get worked up about it.

 

If he reacted with curiosity, I dont know, I think I would feel awkward and unsure. 

 

 

First, I just want to point out a contradiction between your title and the content of your first post, as it does relate to this post as well.

Title: "I don't get it"

First post:  " I am just sort of wierd and needy and have a fucked up idea of what being friends means. "

So isn't the real question, then, how you've come to perceive friendship in a "fucked up" way?  Even the way you've formulated your discussion has focused on a negative perception of yourself that is untrue (that you don't get it).  Instead of a curiosity about the nature of friendship, to better educate and prepare yourself for obtaining these relationships, you've targeted yourself as deficient.

 

Now onto the quoted post:

A friend, to you, is someone who betrays you (however minor the infraction) and then calls you whiny and a pussy for calling him on it and feeling betrayed?

If a friend acted like--well, a friend--and actually took an interest in resolving the issue stemming from his thoughtlessness toward you, then that would be awkward and make you unsure?  Unsure of what?  How to respond and act like a friend toward him in kind? Unsure of why someone is being considerate of your feelings?

 

 

[_LiveFree_]

3 hours ago, D.D. said:

Claiming that I'm joining in on the "retardation" or that I don't wear "bigboy panties" is passive aggressive behaviour - indirect expression of hostility.

You do not have the authority nor my respect to tell me what I can join in on or what phrases I cannot use - that's the kind of authoritarianism we fight against.

Please note that your statements are also not arguments.

 

You claim to "have no desire whatsoever to engage with [DaVinci]", yet you communicated to him using verbal abuse.  Your logic has failed.  If you're not going to communicate with him, why insult him then try to block him?  I suspect it's because you knew your behaviour is inappropriate.

You also claim "I wasn't making an argument" when you insulted DaVinci - then it is true that your statement was "not an argument" and people are correct to point this out to you.

 

 

Here's where the problem originally started:

You were dissatisfied with how neeeel was responding in his thread.  You were first confused, then claim he wasn't putting effort into this thread, and finally claiming the short posts are a waste of time - all without defining:

• what you were confused about
• what constitutes "effort"
• why short posts are a waste of time

This is neeels thread and if you're dissatisfied with it, you're impatience is not going to help neeeel communicate what is clearly a difficult subject for him - this is why DaVinci recommended you to leave and allow neeel to respond how he wants to.  He was direct with you about the problem he had with you - that's quite the opposite of the passive aggression that you claim he was behaving like.  He was being assertive with you - this does not give you the privilege of calling him names.

 

Where is the freedom in Freedomain Radio in you're behaviour?  I hope you take the time to understand my arguments - the evidence is clear.

Holy crap man get over yourself

[D.D.]

8 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Holy crap man get over yourself

Not an argument.

Try again.

[_LiveFree_]

2 hours ago, D.D. said:

Not an argument.

Try again.

Figure it out. I wasn't making one. You're not doing this right. Stop hijacking the thread.

 

EDIT: You know what? If you actually want to have this conversation with me, then I will engage you over private message. Send me a message and I will respond to you there.  

Edited May 20, 2017 by _LiveFree_

[D.D.]

1 hour ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Figure it out. I wasn't making one.

Finally you agree that you are not providing an argument.  Congratulations, the first step in solving the problem is acknowledging the problem.

This is a philosophy forum.  Provide arguments, logic, reason, and facts - not verbal abuse, meaningless statements like "get over yourself", or telling other people what to do.  Your user name (_LiveFree_) is an oxymoron - it's a self-contradictory effect when you tell others how to live.  Funny because it reminds me of a 90's movie called "I Come In Peace" where the villain would say "I come in peace" to make people drop their guard just before he proceeded to kill them.  I guess peace for the villain meant death to others.

 

1 hour ago, _LiveFree_ said:

You're not doing this right.

What is "this" and how do we determine "doing...right"?  You're building the case against you being capable of practising philosophy.  Just because you say it is doesn't make it so.  Again, where's your argument?

 

1 hour ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Stop hijacking the thread. 

You hijacked neeeel's thread when you started to complain about his short posts and that he was apparently wasting time.  I'm here to show you, and others who will see this in the future, of your insulting behaviour towards others here including how you ignore evidence with even more insults!

 

1 hour ago, _LiveFree_ said:

EDIT: You know what? If you actually want to have this conversation with me, then I will engage you over private message. Send me a message and I will respond to you there.  

No.  Calling people "retards" and ordering them what to do in a public arena only makes me wonder how you will behave with the doors closed.

You want to hide the evidence and logic supporting your abusive and insulting behaviour.  Let's be transparent to Neeeel and others by showing the world how _LiveFree_ reacts when an argument with empirical evidence is built against you.

 

I've done some homework.  You have a trend of being certain about how others ought to behave while failing to take your own advice.  Here's what you said regarding newspeak on April 27, 2017 in this thread:

Quote

Omg. This isn't complicated. You TELL THE TRUTH. No matter how uncomfortable or unpopular. The answer to all this is courage, not some philosophical word play or psychological mind game. 

Here's what you said about philosophy on May 8, 2017 in this thread:

Quote

Philosophy asks questions to look for answers that are correct. Screw what helps or feels nice or whatever the hell. Philosophy is for discovering what is correct. People don't like listening to nutrition because it says eat stuff that doesn't taste as good as this other stuff that will harm you. People don't like real action based philosophy because it says these actions will lead to lasting joy even though they might not feel good right now. Philosophy doesn't taste good when you first starting eating it.

Philosophy is about turning the light onto yourself!! Everything can be achieved by turning the light on yourself.

Philosophy is the most powerful weapon this world has ever seen and you're treating it like some plastic gun to be waved around as party favor. And I've read that thread. You haven't found dick, believe me. The only thing you've exposed is your willingness to mess with people to satisfy your own personal ends.

No, I'm challenging your assumption that you know what the hell you're doing. I'm challenging your assumption that you know what putting philosophy in action really means.

I've shined the light on the problem and pointed it out for you. You continue to delude yourself into thinking it is something outside yourself. The very fact, FACT, that you are as resistent to this as you are is a crystal clear indicator that I am 100% right about it. What? You think you're the first one to go through this?

The following is your statement supporting your hypocrisy regarding the proper use of "not an argument":

Quote

Also, I don't know if I've mentioned this but calling something "cynical" is #NotAnArgument

So you're telling me that when you call some one a "retard" and I point out that it's not an argument, you think you have the credibility to correct me that I'm doing it wrong.

You have little to no integrity and are clearly hypocritical.

 

I hope these posts help shine some light on who _LiveFree_ is, so that when some one like neeeel is sharing something personal and difficult, that they recognize having a discussion with some one like _LiveFree_ is not a safe person.  I recommend seeking out a good professional therapist who is trained to provide safe interactions within a safe place.

[neeeel]

On 2017-5-20 at 3:33 AM, Spenc said:

I'm curious if you are an introvert or an extrovert?

 

I'm also wondering, was it always this way?  Were you able to make friends in kindergarten, intermediate, high school?  When did it become an issue for you?

 

I'm also curious, assuming you had friends in high school that you hung out with, or in college, what happened to those relationships that they are no longer around?

 

Also, of the few people you said you spend time with, what do you think of the other friendships (or perhaps marriages/romantic relationships) that they have, to the extent that you are knowledgeable about their other relationships?  As an example, when I first met a co-worker, he wanted to engage me socially, which was fine.  One thing I noticed shortly after overhearing some calls he made with friends during work hours, was that a lot of his friendships were kind of based on getting something out of the other person, which put up red flags and demotivated me to hang out with him much.  For example, he had a friend who worked at a major sports retail store, and called his friend to inquire about having that friend use his discount to purchase him something.  He also suggested "we should get together for drinks or something" as if to imply that the call was not motivated purely for asking the favour, but to also be social. These types of calls and conversations were common for him, so needless to say, I didn't see friendship with him as this overwhelmingly positive prospect for me. And as such, I put out some negative vibes and eventually we just kind of went our separate ways in terms of a social relationship outside of work.

 

I would say I am introvert.

It wasnt always this way, no. Although I didnt really have friends when I was growing up, when I was at primary school there were people I would play with, I was involved in the outside world and the community and the social sphere of being outside and playing and interacting, if that makes sense. I dont think there was even 1 time where I ever asked someone to come to my house, I dont think the idea even crossed my mind as a possibility. I didnt have a "best friend"

In secondary school I was pretty much alone, similar at college.

 

With regard to my friends other friends, I think I am jealous. My impression is that he talks to them all the time, on twitter, discord , etc. Even when hes with me hes chatting to them, it seems. And when I have engaged him on chat or whatever, I get minimal response. It seems that he holds them in higher regard than he does me.  Thats just my impression though. As to what those relationships are really like, I dont have any knowledge of that, except from a few exchanges that I have seen on twitter.

 

 

On 2017-5-20 at 5:48 AM, Spenc said:

First, I just want to point out a contradiction between your title and the content of your first post, as it does relate to this post as well.

Title: "I don't get it"

First post:  " I am just sort of wierd and needy and have a fucked up idea of what being friends means. "

So isn't the real question, then, how you've come to perceive friendship in a "fucked up" way?  Even the way you've formulated your discussion has focused on a negative perception of yourself that is untrue (that you don't get it).  Instead of a curiosity about the nature of friendship, to better educate and prepare yourself for obtaining these relationships, you've targeted yourself as deficient.

 

Yes, you are right in a way. Its just that "I dont get it" is the overall feeling. Just confusion and incomprehension ( or something along those lines). Is it that I DO have a fucked up idea of what friends is? Or am I correct? maybe I AM being whiny? What does it all mean? How can I know? Why do people act the way they do? the thought going round my head when these sort of things happen is "I dont understand"

 

Quote

 

Now onto the quoted post:

A friend, to you, is someone who betrays you (however minor the infraction) and then calls you whiny and a pussy for calling him on it and feeling betrayed?

If a friend acted like--well, a friend--and actually took an interest in resolving the issue stemming from his thoughtlessness toward you, then that would be awkward and make you unsure?  Unsure of what?  How to respond and act like a friend toward him in kind? Unsure of why someone is being considerate of your feelings?

 

 

Perhaps friend is a label to me, rather than an action. that is, if I have labelled someone a friend, then they get that label whatever they do.

I dont know why it would be awkward. Perhaps because I am not used to being treated like that. I would be unsure that they were being honest.

 

 

On 2017-5-20 at 0:28 AM, _LiveFree_ said:

Then you know what to do.  Get to it. 

Yes, but HOW? 

[_LiveFree_]

3 hours ago, neeeel said:

Yes, but HOW? 

Short answer: be honest. You're not being honest with yourself about what you are experiencing. You're self-censoring. Stop. 

Longer answer: www.selfleadership.org

YOU have to do the work. No one else. This is on you. If you don't care enough to do it, no will be able to help you. There are lots of resources on that website. Buy books, YouTube internal family systems therapy and watch videos. Print this thread out and take it to your therapist. Ask your therapist what emotions she/he sees you expressing. Maybe you're not aware of them. I see frustration from you. I feel frustration reading your responses. Frustration is the result of anger arising out of a denied desire. Stop being frustrated.  Stop denying that you are worth the effort to fix this and cultivate a feeling of panic! This is your #1 job in your life right now, not some side interest you sometimes think about. 

Go buy Internal Family Systems Therapy by Richard Schwartz. Read it cover to cover in a couple of days to get familiar with it. Then go back through it again slowly. Go buy cheap notebooks and pens from Walmart. Write write write. PRACTICE writing how you feel. Get to know your parts. Be honest. Keep a daily journal. If you don't know what to write, then write, "I don't know what to write." Then write how you feel about not knowing what to write. You have a muscle called self-expression that has atrophied because it has been tied up unable to move your whole life. You must go through the agony of rebuilding it BY USING IT.

 

There is no HOW for you anymore. Only choice of whether you will or will not. Posting on a message board won't do it. Listening to podcasts won't do it. Simply thinking about it won't do it. And complaining to others won't do it. 

 

Questions?

[D.D.]

44 minutes ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Short answer: be honest. You're not being honest with yourself about what you are experiencing. You're self-censoring. Stop. 

Longer answer: www.selfleadership.org

YOU have to do the work. No one else. This is on you. If you don't care enough to do it, no will be able to help you. There are lots of resources on that website. Buy books, YouTube internal family systems therapy and watch videos. Print this thread out and take it to your therapist. Ask your therapist what emotions she/he sees you expressing. Maybe you're not aware of them. I see frustration from you. I feel frustration reading your responses. Frustration is the result of anger arising out of a denied desire. Stop being frustrated.  Stop denying that you are worth the effort to fix this and cultivate a feeling of panic! This is your #1 job in your life right now, not some side interest you sometimes think about. 

Go buy Internal Family Systems Therapy by Richard Schwartz. Read it cover to cover in a couple of days to get familiar with it. Then go back through it again slowly. Go buy cheap notebooks and pens from Walmart. Write write write. PRACTICE writing how you feel. Get to know your parts. Be honest. Keep a daily journal. If you don't know what to write, then write, "I don't know what to write." Then write how you feel about not knowing what to write. You have a muscle called self-expression that has atrophied because it has been tied up unable to move your whole life. You must go through the agony of rebuilding it BY USING IT.

 

There is no HOW for you anymore. Only choice of whether you will or will not. Posting on a message board won't do it. Listening to podcasts won't do it. Simply thinking about it won't do it. And complaining to others won't do it. 

 

Questions?

Hypocritical advice for someone who can't be honest about your own insulting behaviour.

 

53 minutes ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Frustration is the result of anger arising out of a denied desire. Stop being frustrated.  Stop denying that you are worth the effort to fix this and cultivate a feeling of panic! This is your #1 job in your life right now, not some side interest you sometimes think about. 

Hypocritical advice for someone who insults board members when you feel frustrated that the conversation isn't going the way you want it to.

 

Hypocritical advice for someone who calls a board member "retarded".

Remember the following statement which you have yet to apologize for?

On 2017-05-18 at 10:37 PM, _LiveFree_ said:

You're retarded. Stop responding to me. 

 

Remember how you justified the above verbal insult with this non-factual statement while insulting another board member?

On 2017-05-19 at 6:39 PM, _LiveFree_ said:

don't join in on the retardation. He has a problem with me and was being passive aggressive. I wasn't making an argument. I was making it clear I have no desire whatsoever to engage with him at this point. It's also why I've put him on ignore.

 

Where's your empirical evidence that you practice what you preach?

Where's your empirical evidence that you have integrity?

The empirical evidence says you have neither of these.  Why should people take your sage advice?

[DaVinci]

13 hours ago, neeeel said:

With regard to my friends other friends, I think I am jealous. My impression is that he talks to them all the time, on twitter, discord , etc. Even when hes with me hes chatting to them, it seems. And when I have engaged him on chat or whatever, I get minimal response. It seems that he holds them in higher regard than he does me.  Thats just my impression though. As to what those relationships are really like, I dont have any knowledge of that, except from a few exchanges that I have seen on twitter.

 

Yes, you are right in a way. Its just that "I dont get it" is the overall feeling. Just confusion and incomprehension ( or something along those lines). Is it that I DO have a fucked up idea of what friends is? Or am I correct? maybe I AM being whiny? What does it all mean? How can I know? Why do people act the way they do? the thought going round my head when these sort of things happen is "I dont understand"

 

You have to remember the human species is very tribalistic. If you aren't in the tribe you are probably an enemy. Tribes start from the self, and then extend out to blood family(or the equivalent in regards to a spouse), extended family/close friends, acquaintances, and other similar looking tribe members you might interact with on a minimal basis. Everyone outside of that is, well, an outsider. 

Where are you on this spectrum in regards to your "friend" you've been talking about? You aren't related by blood. You aren't his spouse. You aren't extended family. What does that leave? 

Your source of conflict seems to be that you aren't as close to him as other people appear to be. So you don't think you are in the close friend category. But I would say he hangs out with you enough to where you aren't just random tribe member #5427. So then are you just an acquaintance? Someone he knows only slightly? 

You say his interactions with you are short versus everyone else. That fits that you are acquaintances. Maybe it didn't start that way, and maybe that's not the way you intended it to go, but that's the way it is. 

What would it take to go from being just an acquaintance to being in the "close friend" category? Is that what you really want? Is there a bunch of bad blood and old unresolved arguments in the way? Do you really want to be this guy's friend, or is it that you don't want to be alone? If you do want to be be close friends with this guy then why? How would you feel if you became his friend and he found a Neeel acquaintance replacement who he treated like he used to treat you? If it's just because you don't want to be alone then why not? Yeah, there is a biological drive to seek out companionship. But you should also have a drive to not let assholes in your life. 

 

You asked "Why do people act the way they do?". Biology. Millions and millions of years of development. Tens of thousands of years of human society. It's calendar year 2017, but there is recorded history for at least 5000 years. This might as well be the year 5017 as far as recorded history goes, and in a sense it gives you a better understanding of where you are in time. 

People are tribalistic. That's how we survived all this time. That's why you're alive to read this. The downside with our modern world is even with this amazing computer technology most people are cut off from making connections, and most connections, as I discussed earlier in the thread, are just about using others. "I feel lonely" "I know, I'll get a bunch of "friends" so I don't feel that way"  or  "I want sex" "I know, I'll convince a girl I'm into her so that I get to have sex". Most people are solely driven by this type of thinking. 

From my own personal experience I don't have much of a drive to go looking for friends anymore. I'm not a loneliness removal tool. Nor do I want to treat anyone like that. 

What if you embraced that you are alone to the point where there wasn't an emotional component to it anymore? 

Think about it like this: Have you ever had someone in your life die? Were you sad? Did you cry? Were you depressed? At some point did you stop crying? Stop feeling depressed? Did you wake up one day and  realized that you had pushed past the sadness? That what you felt was more like "clarity". Perhaps that's what is happening with your friendships. Could it be that you are still in the "mourning phase" not wanting to let go of sad relationships with rotting people? 

[Spenc]

16 hours ago, neeeel said:

 

I would say I am introvert.

It wasnt always this way, no. Although I didnt really have friends when I was growing up, when I was at primary school there were people I would play with, I was involved in the outside world and the community and the social sphere of being outside and playing and interacting, if that makes sense. I dont think there was even 1 time where I ever asked someone to come to my house, I dont think the idea even crossed my mind as a possibility. I didnt have a "best friend"

In secondary school I was pretty much alone, similar at college.

 

With regard to my friends other friends, I think I am jealous. My impression is that he talks to them all the time, on twitter, discord , etc. Even when hes with me hes chatting to them, it seems. And when I have engaged him on chat or whatever, I get minimal response. It seems that he holds them in higher regard than he does me.  Thats just my impression though. As to what those relationships are really like, I dont have any knowledge of that, except from a few exchanges that I have seen on twitter.

 

 

Yes, you are right in a way. Its just that "I dont get it" is the overall feeling. Just confusion and incomprehension ( or something along those lines). Is it that I DO have a fucked up idea of what friends is? Or am I correct? maybe I AM being whiny? What does it all mean? How can I know? Why do people act the way they do? the thought going round my head when these sort of things happen is "I dont understand"

 

 

Perhaps friend is a label to me, rather than an action. that is, if I have labelled someone a friend, then they get that label whatever they do.

I dont know why it would be awkward. Perhaps because I am not used to being treated like that. I would be unsure that they were being honest.

 

So I think your perception of your friends valuing your friendship less than others is tied in to your introversion and your circumstances, especially if they are extroverts.  As an extrovert, your friend would value social status and wider social circles, which you do not offer.  All else being equal,  a friend of mine would value my friendship less than another friend's if he is an extrovert, because I am introverted and offer him less social capital than his other friends might.  Now I can overcome this particular deficit in other ways, by being more valuable in other ways, as a person to share thoughts and ideas with or whatever else he might value.

 

So would you have not wanted people coming over to your house as a kid because you had shame about your home or family or perceived other kids' homes and parents to be 'better'?

 

You mentioned having terrible parents and are confused about how friendships work, so I don't think the "I don't get it" vibe is associated with why you don't have friends, but rather how healthy functioning relationships work.  You didn't pick up on it from your own parents, and now you're kind of thrown in the deep end and you find that yourself lacking in social abilities and you don't get it.  Like, you're on the same social media as your friend's other friends are and you have a mutual interest in a movie, so your friend should see the value in chatting with you and seeing the movie with you.  But your friend has some totally other measure for determining the value of your friendship vs. his other friend and is acting accordingly.

 

There is a lot of danger in applying a label of friend to someone in that manner.  You're now choosing to erase your own needs and expression in order to accommodate your 'friend' and 'friendship' instead of just finding someone who can be your friend and allow you to express yourself at the same time.

 

And tying back to your parents and how you "don't get it" how normal healthy relationships work, you would find it to be honest and correct if your friend called you a pussy, but you would question his honesty and motives if he was apologetic and curious about your feelings......

 

To go one step further, you say you don't want to bring up the movie because you don't want to seem whiny or needy, and then that would present an obstacle to your friendship.  But what if I told you, the only obstacle to you gaining real friendship was that you won't be whiny or needy, or more accurately, that you won't express yourself honestly and hold people accountable when they betray and lie to you?

[neeeel]

On 2017-5-22 at 3:40 AM, Spenc said:

So would you have not wanted people coming over to your house as a kid because you had shame about your home or family or perceived other kids' homes and parents to be 'better'?

 

 

I dont think the idea even crossed my mind. Which seems strange, but I dont remember even thinking or wishing it. I suppose it could be an unconscious embarrassment of my parents, I was certainly embarrassed of them as a teenager.

 

 

Quote

You mentioned having terrible parents and are confused about how friendships work, so I don't think the "I don't get it" vibe is associated with why you don't have friends, but rather how healthy functioning relationships work.  You didn't pick up on it from your own parents, and now you're kind of thrown in the deep end and you find that yourself lacking in social abilities and you don't get it. 

right, and I am wondering if its something that you get in the pre verbal stage, because it seems like such a natural fundamental thing to most people, and it does seem like I have something missing.

 

Quote

 

To go one step further, you say you don't want to bring up the movie because you don't want to seem whiny or needy, and then that would present an obstacle to your friendship.  But what if I told you, the only obstacle to you gaining real friendship was that you won't be whiny or needy, or more accurately, that you won't express yourself honestly and hold people accountable when they betray and lie to you?

 

Ye, I have realised that I am always wrong. If I do X to someone, I am wrong for doing X and upsetting them or hurting them. If they do the same X to me, I am wrong for getting upset or feeling hurt. 

 

On 2017-5-21 at 11:19 PM, DaVinci said:

You have to remember the human species is very tribalistic. If you aren't in the tribe you are probably an enemy. Tribes start from the self, and then extend out to blood family(or the equivalent in regards to a spouse), extended family/close friends, acquaintances, and other similar looking tribe members you might interact with on a minimal basis. Everyone outside of that is, well, an outsider. 

Where are you on this spectrum in regards to your "friend" you've been talking about? You aren't related by blood. You aren't his spouse. You aren't extended family. What does that leave? 

Your source of conflict seems to be that you aren't as close to him as other people appear to be. So you don't think you are in the close friend category. But I would say he hangs out with you enough to where you aren't just random tribe member #5427. So then are you just an acquaintance? Someone he knows only slightly? 

You say his interactions with you are short versus everyone else. That fits that you are acquaintances. Maybe it didn't start that way, and maybe that's not the way you intended it to go, but that's the way it is. 

What would it take to go from being just an acquaintance to being in the "close friend" category? Is that what you really want? Is there a bunch of bad blood and old unresolved arguments in the way? Do you really want to be this guy's friend, or is it that you don't want to be alone? If you do want to be be close friends with this guy then why? How would you feel if you became his friend and he found a Neeel acquaintance replacement who he treated like he used to treat you? If it's just because you don't want to be alone then why not? Yeah, there is a biological drive to seek out companionship. But you should also have a drive to not let assholes in your life. 

 

You asked "Why do people act the way they do?". Biology. Millions and millions of years of development. Tens of thousands of years of human society. It's calendar year 2017, but there is recorded history for at least 5000 years. This might as well be the year 5017 as far as recorded history goes, and in a sense it gives you a better understanding of where you are in time. 

People are tribalistic. That's how we survived all this time. That's why you're alive to read this. The downside with our modern world is even with this amazing computer technology most people are cut off from making connections, and most connections, as I discussed earlier in the thread, are just about using others. "I feel lonely" "I know, I'll get a bunch of "friends" so I don't feel that way"  or  "I want sex" "I know, I'll convince a girl I'm into her so that I get to have sex". Most people are solely driven by this type of thinking. 

From my own personal experience I don't have much of a drive to go looking for friends anymore. I'm not a loneliness removal tool. Nor do I want to treat anyone like that. 

What if you embraced that you are alone to the point where there wasn't an emotional component to it anymore? 

Think about it like this: Have you ever had someone in your life die? Were you sad? Did you cry? Were you depressed? At some point did you stop crying? Stop feeling depressed? Did you wake up one day and  realized that you had pushed past the sadness? That what you felt was more like "clarity". Perhaps that's what is happening with your friendships. Could it be that you are still in the "mourning phase" not wanting to let go of sad relationships with rotting people? 

I havent really anything to add, just wanted to say I appreciate your thoughts. 

[DaVinci]

14 hours ago, neeeel said:

I havent really anything to add, just wanted to say I appreciate your thoughts. 

Sure. I hope something I've said will be of some use to you. If you ever want to talk about anything let me know. Send a PM, or @ me in a topic. 

 

[Spenc]

On 2017-05-23 at 2:45 PM, neeeel said:

 

I dont think the idea even crossed my mind. Which seems strange, but I dont remember even thinking or wishing it. I suppose it could be an unconscious embarrassment of my parents, I was certainly embarrassed of them as a teenager.

 

That doesn't just seem strange, it's virtually unimaginable.  It would take Orwellian levels of proletarian doublethink to not even have the thought or consideration of having a sleepover or a friend over.  Like, you must have heard about other kids doing it, seen it in movies, etc. and been totally aware that it was a normal thing for most kids, so to not have the thought yourself is incredible.

[neeeel]

4 hours ago, Spenc said:

That doesn't just seem strange, it's virtually unimaginable.  It would take Orwellian levels of proletarian doublethink to not even have the thought or consideration of having a sleepover or a friend over.  Like, you must have heard about other kids doing it, seen it in movies, etc. and been totally aware that it was a normal thing for most kids, so to not have the thought yourself is incredible.

Perhaps I am misremembering, but thats the way it seems to me when I think back, I think I was also unaware that it was a normal thing for most kids, or that other kids were doing it. Do you remember this from when you were a child? You remember wanting friends to come over, and you remember times when you were aware that other kids were having sleepovers etc?

 

 

[Spenc]

20 hours ago, neeeel said:

Perhaps I am misremembering, but thats the way it seems to me when I think back, I think I was also unaware that it was a normal thing for most kids, or that other kids were doing it. Do you remember this from when you were a child? You remember wanting friends to come over, and you remember times when you were aware that other kids were having sleepovers etc?

 

 

Yes, I remember, although that isn't really an apt comparison for me.  I remember having lots of sleepovers at other kids' houses and them staying at mine as well.  Probably starting around grade 2 or maybe 3.

 

A better comparison for me would be other things kids/friends were doing that didn't include me.  I lived in a rural area, the school was in the small town, where most of my friends lived but I lived further out into the farming area of the rural land.  So a lot of times, they were doing things that I wasn't included in because when you're a kid you are kind of confined to the distance you are able and allowed to bike to for the most part and friendships and play are often based on proximity.

 

So I was very aware of hearing about things that the kids inside the town were doing which I was not able to join in on, and very much wished to also be involved and be able to do the same things.   Like, being able to bike over to the tennis courts after school to play ball hockey with a group of kids, or living on a paved street where you could get a group together and put nets out on the street to play, or whatever else.

 

[meetjoeblack]

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 4:35 PM, neeeel said:

I have no friends. No one seems interested in me, in spending time with me. To be fair, I suppose I am not interested in other people or spending time with them, but the few people that I do spend time with, I seem to be disposable and not at all valued. I dont understand what is wrong with me. I dont seem to have a proper understanding of what being friends is. Other people seem to find value in each other, to spend time with each other, to care for each other, and I just dont get it. I dont know if its because I am just sort of wierd and needy and have a fucked up idea of what being friends means. I have no idea how to change anything. 

 

I am in therapy and I like my therapist and generally think hes good. 

 

( I realise that this is really whiny and teenagery, but its where I am right now)

 

I am interested in people and I find it difficult.

It is the law of attraction. LIKE ATTRACTS LIKE. If you aren't interested in people, people wont be interested in you, and it will bleed into other areas of life. If you take a approach to meet new people, they will feel your inauthenticity, and this hollow attempt to interact but, it will go to deaf ears because at your baseline, it coming from scarcity.

As I get older, I make it a priority to interact with new people, and to talk to a few new girls everyday. As a single male, I think it is a ideal option rather then pursuing the leftist liberal internet passive dating approach. Talking to people, I can meet new guy friends, and with women, I can date, have a LTR or make a friend. She knows more girls and if she is not friend zoning, a actual friend, the likelihood she actually introduces me to girls is pretty high otherwise, you cut all ties to avoid being 'emo tampon.'

 

Watch the secret or read the book man. If you take away anything, you can learn about universal laws; law of attraction and the law of state transference; basically, what you feel, other people will feel it too. Go first. Put positive energy forward. Be enthusiastic. Talk. Interact. Build rapport. I am hopeful this will help me in business and public speaking.

[Frederik]

On 5.7.2017 at 3:25 AM, meetjoeblack said:

As I get older, I make it a priority to interact with new people, and to talk to a few new girls everyday. As a single male, I think it is a ideal option rather then pursuing the leftist liberal internet passive dating approach. Talking to people, I can meet new guy friends, and with women, I can date, have a LTR or make a friend. She knows more girls and if she is not friend zoning, a actual friend, the likelihood she actually introduces me to girls is pretty high otherwise, you cut all ties to avoid being 'emo tampon.'

Watch the secret or read the book man. If you take away anything, you can learn about universal laws; law of attraction and the law of state transference; basically, what you feel, other people will feel it too. Go first. Put positive energy forward. Be enthusiastic. Talk. Interact. Build rapport. I am hopeful this will help me in business and public speaking.

You are trying to take the shortcut. Which is fine, if that works for you.

The wise and philosophical way of changing behaviour is to be curious and ask "I wonder why I have no friends." (or the like)

You’re trying the quick-fix which is to just make yourself do stuff. You think because you are talking to people you have solved whatever problem that keeps people out of your life, yet you have not explored the actual true reason for why any problem existed in the first place.

And for people like myself or OP, I can tell you, this does not work. Some people need the truth, which is hard to get by, but what we get is the greatest potential for happiness