Eudaimonic Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Donnadogsoth said: All this is a dodge by Eudaimonic who maintains that free will is compatible with materialism. Not an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 minute ago, neeeel said: ye, ok, sure you werent trying to prove free will, just invalidate determinism. If free will is true, and I have a choice, then debating with me can change my mind( of course, this isnt invalidated by determinism, but you conveniently ignore that). You obviously dont believe in free will if you dont answer questions, because you dont believe that answering my questions can change my mind. I wasn't attempting to invalidate determinism either. All I said was that if determinism was true it wouldn't make sense to try to change a mind who was determined to believe what it believes. I've already explained why I'm not going further with you on the free will debate. By your tone, this doesn't seem to me to be about free will vs determinism anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neeeel Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Just now, Eudaimonic said: I wasn't attempting to invalidate determinism either. All I said was that if determinism was true it wouldn't make sense to try to change a mind who was determined to believe what it believes. I've already explained why I'm not going further with you on the free will debate. By your tone, this doesn't seem to me to be about free will vs determinism anymore. It is pretty annoying to be challenged on something, and then when you ask for clarification, the other person goes "well, actually, Im not going to clarify" . pretty dishonest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofd Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Quote Knowledge is justified true belief. Well then you run into a whole bunch of problems. The most important is how do you justify your true beliefs? If you observe natural phenomena you can't use deduction. Then there is the problem of induction. With abduction you have the problem of induction in addition to a weak version of deduction (you don't know if the general rule is correct). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Just now, ofd said: Well then you run into a whole bunch of problems. The most important is how do you justify your true beliefs? If you observe natural phenomena you can't use deduction. Then there is the problem of induction. With abduction you have the problem of induction in addition to a weak version of deduction (you don't know if the general rule is correct). Read Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology to learn how knowledge is obtained, justified and how the emperical/rationalist dichotomy is false. You can't even due a slim over of the concept in one post alone. This doesn't change that knowledge is justified true belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, neeeel said: It is pretty annoying to be challenged on something, and then when you ask for clarification, the other person goes "well, actually, Im not going to clarify" . pretty dishonest. If you believe I'm being dishonest, then it doesn't make much sense to debate me. I don't think I'm being dishonest and I'll let my credibility rest on my previous posts here and in other threads. I think it's insulting to so quickly label me dishonest and I don't assume anything like that about you. I think it would be appropriate to apologise for that allegation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neeeel Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Eudaimonic said: If you believe I'm being dishonest, then it doesn't make much sense to debate me. I don't think I'm being dishonest and I'll let my credibility rest on my previous posts here and in other threads. I think it's insulting to so quickly label me dishonest and I don't assume anything like that about you. I think it would be appropriate to apologise for that allegation. You - youre wrong me - why? you - Im not going to tell you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, neeeel said: You - youre wrong me - why? you - Im not going to tell you I'm disengaging further debate/conversation with you until I receive an apology for that insulting assumption. I will point to my previous posts if the community is curious as to the validity of his allegation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neeeel Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Just now, Eudaimonic said: I'm disengaging further debate/conversation with you until I receive an apology for that insulting assumption. I will point to my previous posts if the community is curious as to the validity of his allegation. I think my portrayal of our exchange is accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnadogsoth Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 56 minutes ago, Eudaimonic said: Not an argument. I wasn't talking to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofd Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Objectivisim was outdated with regards to knowledge and justification when Ayn Rand came up with it and it has remained so ever since. There are only two factions, the Bayesians and the people following Popper when it comes to the scientific method and epistemology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4E Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 8 hours ago, Eudaimonic said: If you think free will is an illusion, you should stop debating me because you have no control over what I believe anyway. For every post, he is influencing your brain. Which in a deterministic universe was already determined to happen. Influencing, or controlling other people will happen all the time in a deterministic universe. Just that it is in a movie format. A movie can not change, but there is still a lot going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenages Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 The experiments of Libet suggest that the conscious mind holds a controlling function about subconciousness. It was criticized that such simple actions like bending a finger hardly tells something about free will. A group of scientists claims that it works also the other way round (just a summary, but the best I could find) Willfully intentions establish networks in those areas of the brain that regulate unconscious information flow, at least for a certain time. This indicates that we are not slaves of the unconscious, more or less controlled by our willfull and conscious mind, but that willpower can influence the unconscious. regards Andi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardY Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Ace post. (Not sarcastic, looked at "Poe's Law") On 5/19/2017 at 2:17 AM, HasMat said: Looking for proof of mind in objects cannot be satisfied. Our on-going subjective experience is not measureable to outsiders. No one can conclusively pass a Turing test. This is intractable. You can't know the internal experience of another without inhabiting another (for B, thus ending distinction of A=A, B=B, and not A=B). At the level of freewill, you can't know someone without being someone (A=A). Once that happens the evidence is ever-present. We have subjective experience. But as long as you don't "be someone" you can't measure their freewill. Mind and matter, subject and object, freewill and biomechanical expression of freewill, are all the same dichotomy. You will never be able to disassociate quantum probability and immaterial intentionality (mind/freewill) within biological choice systems (like brains). To the most precise empiric methodology, freewill will feature as a probability. That's the closest empircs get to subjects. This probability is interesting because a confidence interval is also the most accurate way to represent someone passing a Turing Test (or Solipsism being false). I think this section is good. After reading Ayn Rand "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology" a while a go and just finishing Nietzsche "Will to Power" I think Nietzsche is correct on the Law of Identity not being the truth. "Be someone" kind of the question from Hamlet. Maybe the lie is more sacred then the Truth. How to effectively lie to yourself (Nietzsche Will to Ignorance) and what to lie about seem to be important questions. I'm reminded of a distinction of the different manifestations of a Will to Power towards the end of the book. 1) Desiring or wishing, 2)Wanting 3)I am or Being (As the Greek Gods). On 5/19/2017 at 2:17 AM, HasMat said: The stack of mental gymnastics to predict agency is just getting started with Poe's Law (inability to disambiguate satire from genuine). It's just another path along Solipsism's road. Ultimately we can't know others mind in direct observation, although with enough science we could know their brain state. Mind and brain are not the same thing. Kind of mind rending, considering dualism. "Better to Reign in Hell than serve in Heaven". On 5/19/2017 at 2:17 AM, HasMat said: Externals cannot directly measure internals. That's a schematic feature of a reality where A=A. If there is any part of us that is non-physical in being (like freewill or subjective experience), science will be unable to document it. If there is no part of our being that is non-physical than freewill is not possible. All matter-originating causes are known by science. None of these causes is an exclusive or unique property of you and you only, insofar as legitimizing rewarding/punishing you for your behavior. Chaos works on all. If chaos is the totality of "freewill", then we share a universal and communal source of agency (and thus praise and culpability is mutual for all and every act--kind of how liberals see white guilt). Individual action and moral responsibility are impossible in this type of universe. If freewill is true, this worldview is necessarily false. So a kind of Entropy(Chaos)? "Freewill"(choice) not being the thing in itself. Some form of Power differential as expressed in "Will to Power". Physicalism as believed by Nietzsche, I think he said somewhere substance theory being influenced by genetic predispositions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 3 hours ago, A4E said: For every post, he is influencing your brain. Which in a deterministic universe was already determined to happen. Influencing, or controlling other people will happen all the time in a deterministic universe. Just that it is in a movie format. A movie can not change, but there is still a lot going on. This doesn't address that it doesn't make sense to try to change someone's mind in a deterministic universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 4 hours ago, ofd said: Objectivisim was outdated with regards to knowledge and justification when Ayn Rand came up with it and it has remained so ever since. There are only two factions, the Bayesians and the people following Popper when it comes to the scientific method and epistemology. This is not an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Goldenages said: The experiments of Libet suggest that the conscious mind holds a controlling function about subconciousness. It was criticized that such simple actions like bending a finger hardly tells something about free will. A group of scientists claims that it works also the other way round (just a summary, but the best I could find) Willfully intentions establish networks in those areas of the brain that regulate unconscious information flow, at least for a certain time. This indicates that we are not slaves of the unconscious, more or less controlled by our willfull and conscious mind, but that willpower can influence the unconscious. regards Andi Libet's experiments also couldn't predict behavior...and this is the argument that Sam Harris rests his hat on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofd Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Quote This is not an argument. It is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4E Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 48 minutes ago, Eudaimonic said: This doesn't address that it doesn't make sense to try to change someone's mind in a deterministic universe. Your statement here is that it does not make sense to try to change someone's mind in a deterministic universe. In what way does it not make sense? I know you have posted various answers that you might think covers that, so then please allow me to ask in a different way: Your statement can be paraphrased into "If you want to change someone's mind in a deterministic universe, then it does not make sense to talk to them." Do you agree with this paraphrasing of your statement? If yes, then if I want to drive a car in a deterministic universe, does it make sense for me to start the car? If I want a dog to stop biting me in a deterministic universe, does it make sense for me to push it away? If I want to walk somewhere in a deterministic universe, does it make sense for me to put one leg in front of the other, multiple times until I get where I want? I am really just trying to understand your position, although I can sense what your line of thought is from what you have posted so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 1 minute ago, A4E said: Your statement here is that it does not make sense to try to change someone's mind in a deterministic universe. In what way does it not make sense? I know you have posted various answers that you might think covers that, so then please allow me to ask in a different way: Your statement can be paraphrased into "If you want to change someone's mind in a deterministic universe, then it does not make sense to talk to them." Do you agree with this paraphrasing of your statement? If yes, then if I want to drive a car in a deterministic universe, does it make sense for me to start the car? If I want a dog to stop biting me in a deterministic universe, does it make sense for me to push it away? If I want to walk somewhere in a deterministic universe, does it make sense for me to put one leg in front of the other, multiple times until I get where I want? I am really just trying to understand your position, although I can sense what your line of thought is from what you have posted so far. In a deterministic universe the only thing that makes sense to do is nothing because you don't have control over anything anyway and everything is futile and pointless. You might as well fall on the floor and stay limp until your body stops functioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4E Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Eudaimonic said: In a deterministic universe the only thing that makes sense to do is nothing because you don't have control over anything anyway and everything is futile and pointless. You might as well fall on the floor and stay limp until your body stops functioning. You just contradicted yourself. If I do nothing and go limp in a deterministic universe, then I have 'controlled' the outcome of my body. And also stopped the effect my body would have on the world if I stayed alive. Why is everything futile and pointless in a deterministic universe? Here is an excerpt from my article: "If everything is already determined, then what is the point in doing anything anymore!??" A movie is a predetermined universe that will play out the same each time. When you watch people in a movie, do you shout out to them that they should not bother anymore, because it has already been determined what will happen? Everything you have done, and will do, has already been determined. If you find a way to get to the moon and back safely, and you do it, then that is what was determined for you. If you curl up in a ball and tell everyone that there is no point doing anything, then that is what you were determined to do. In a deterministic universe, we cannot change the future, as it is already written. But everything we and the universe do will play it forwards. Edited May 21, 2017 by A4E typo, less provocation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 14 minutes ago, A4E said: You just contradicted yourself. If I do nothing and go limp in a deterministic universe, then I have 'controlled' the outcome of my body. And also stopped the effect my body would have on the world if I stayed alive. Why is everything futile and pointless in a deterministic universe? Here is an excerpt from my article: "If everything is already determined, then what is the point in doing anything anymore!??" A movie is a predetermined universe that will play out the same each time. When you watch people in a movie, do you shout out to them that they should not bother anymore, because it has already been determined what will happen? Everything you have done, and will do, has already been determined. If you find a way to get to the moon and back safely, and you do it, then that is what was determined for you. If you curl up in a ball and tell everyone that there is no point doing anything, then that is what you were determined to do. In a deterministic universe, we cannot change the future, as it is already written. But everything we and the universe do will play it forwards. Right, if you assume a deterministic universe than nothing you do matters as to the outcome of that universe because it's determined. There's nothing you can do to change a deterministic universe, so what's the point of doing anything? If I'm determined to fail or succeed at getting to the moon, there's no point in exerting effort about going to the moon. If I fail, it's determined. If I succeed, it's determined. I have no control over the situation. If the universe is determined, there is no point in expending the effort to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4E Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Eudaimonic said: If the universe is determined, there is no point in expending the effort to do anything. This statement assumes that you would have any ability to step out of a deterministic universe, or somehow manipulate its laws, but that would typically be impossible, so I'm afraid you do not have the liberty to change whether you will or will not expend effort. You and me, and everyone else will just do what has already been determined. I am still curious why you think everything is futile and pointless in a deterministic universe. Lets say our universe is 100% deterministic, if you get or have children, is your role still futile and pointless? You just created and sustained life that uses your genes, which will continue the story of your kind of life form in this universe. How is that futile and pointless? Do you watch movies? If yes, why? Everything in the movie is futile and pointless in your opinion, right? So why would you watch it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Just now, A4E said: This statement assumes that you would have any ability to step out of a deterministic universe, or somehow manipulate its laws, but that would typically be impossible, so I'm afraid you do not have the liberty to change whether you will or will not expend effort. You and me, and everyone else will just do what has already been determined. I am still curious why you think everything is futile and pointless in a deterministic universe. Lets say our universe is 100% deterministic, if you get or have children, is your role still futile and pointless? You just created and sustained life that uses your genes, which will continue the story of your kind of life form in this universe. How is that futile and pointless? Do you watch movies? If yes, why? Everything in the movie is futile and pointless in your opinion, right? So why would you watch it? This doesn't address the point that if your actions are determined then there is no point in doing anything. The very fact that I can change my behavior based on the knowledge of determinism is itself a testement to free will. Yes your role is pointless because whether or not your children survive or 'continue your story' is not up to you. It is futile because no matter what you do the outcome is determined beforehand. Because they're entertaining and I have no interest in trying to change the content. If I did, I would've chosen to become apart of the movies creation if that was open to me. I have interest in changing the content of my own life and that is open to me via free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neeeel Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 22 minutes ago, Eudaimonic said: This doesn't address the point that if your actions are determined then there is no point in doing anything. The very fact that I can change my behavior based on the knowledge of determinism is itself a testement to free will. Yes your role is pointless because whether or not your children survive or 'continue your story' is not up to you. It is futile because no matter what you do the outcome is determined beforehand. Because they're entertaining and I have no interest in trying to change the content. If I did, I would've chosen to become apart of the movies creation if that was open to me. I have interest in changing the content of my own life and that is open to me via free will. In a deterministic universe, it perfectly possible for it to be determined that you believe that there is a point to doing something. Its possible in a deterministic universe, for you to believe that you changed your behaviour based on the knowledge of determinism. This does not prove free will or disprove determinism. again, your argument presupposes the existence of free will. "Look i chose to do something with free will! therefore free will exists!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4E Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, Eudaimonic said: This doesn't address the point that if your actions are determined then there is no point in doing anything. This is not a point. Its an invalid supposition. Because you are not at liberty to change the laws of the universe, and you have not proven how there is no point to a determined universe. Quote The very fact that I can change my behavior based on the knowledge of determinism is itself a testement to free will. Knowledge that came from other people, and was created probably a fairly long time ago and likely including several people brainstorming. Which means it has a causal line to your head, and such actually a testament to determinism. Quote Yes your role is pointless because whether or not your children survive or 'continue your story' is not up to you. After your role has ended in death, then it is continued by other actors, or it could also be continued by you through all the various immortal communication options we have today. (text / videos). So your role is not pointless. Its just determined. A wheel spinning around is not pointless. It helps a car stay on the road and move forward. A carpenter making a house is not doing something pointless, he is building something for people to stay under in exchange for money to support himself or his own family. A boat keeping afloat is not pointless, its just determined to keep afloat and be able to protect anything from the water beneath. If you are going to make a case for a deterministic universe being pointless, then explain why just because it is determined and "not up to you", how that makes it pointless. Lots of people play the lottery which people might agree is determined and "not up to you" (since there is no human brain with the mythical free will involved), so why do they play it, if it is pointless? I know we are going in circles, but I am just trying to dig for some good substance other than "just because there would be no free will." Quote It is futile because no matter what you do the outcome is determined beforehand. Futile how exactly? You can not change your role no, but so what? Your role might create a completely free market on the entire planet, would you call your role futile if you made that happen? Quote Because they're entertaining and I have no interest in trying to change the content. If I did, I would've chosen to become apart of the movies creation if that was open to me. I have interest in changing the content of my own life and that is open to me via free will. A free will to make choices based on knowledge gained and thoughts created in your brain, which is completely compatible with a deterministic universe. I suspect that because most people like to be in control of their environment that the idea of determinism is especially distasteful to so many. But that does not mean it can not be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kikker Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 It's always a bit perplexing when a person believes that determinism would switch around cause and effect, believing that the effect would become independent of the events preceding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenages Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 On 19.05.2017 at 3:17 AM, HasMat said: But the biomechanical representations of mind are not freewill. These are objects that our subject automatically expresses. So then we have to explain what "mind" and "freewill" is. Furthermore, we have to explain how something immaterial and not measurable and thus, according to the scientific method, non- existing, can influence those biomechanical representations. On 19.05.2017 at 3:17 AM, HasMat said: But as long as you don't "be someone" you can't measure their freewill. That makes no difference, because I can´t even measure my own free will. On 19.05.2017 at 3:17 AM, HasMat said: To the most precise empiric methodology, freewill will feature as a probability. That's the closest empircs get to subjects. Yes that´s what is likely. Think of the chaos theory, "deterministic chaos". If I want to make a weather forecast, even when knowing literally all data down to oscillations of all atoms involved, nevertheless my forecast can only reach a certain probability. Law of physics does not allow more. The more complex the area and the longer the time, the more probability goes down. Likewise, if you know a person very well you can, within a certain probability, predict how she or he will behave. The more mind-controlled somebody is, the easier predictions can be made, because you "know" what he thinks. Pure chaos has nothing to do with freewill or predictions, its only chance. On 19.05.2017 at 3:17 AM, HasMat said: If there is no part of our being that is non-physical than freewill is not possible. All matter-originating causes are known by science. To act on freewill, only one cause is sufficient: To stay alive. This cause triggers an infinitely amount of possible actions - just look at the civilisation around us. And compare to societies where freewill is suppressed by religion or state. regards Andi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudaimonic Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 On 5/21/2017 at 10:38 AM, A4E said: This is not a point. Its an invalid supposition. Because you are not at liberty to change the laws of the universe, and you have not proven how there is no point to a determined universe. I think you're misunderstanding me, outcomes in a deterministic universe are set. There is no changing the outcome of anything, even those in the next moment. Your "actions" have no point or purpose because you can't do either X or Y you must do X. Your actions only have 'meaning' if they can determine the outcome. Meaning is a concept dependent on the assumption of free will and value i.e if I value something it is up to me to manifest that value in reality. If you value nothing, but have free will, you don't act, if you value something and don't have free will then whether or not what you value is manifested or not is not in your control, but has been predetermined. Beings that neither value nor have free will are animals or robots, therefore the lack of meaning in their behavior. On 5/21/2017 at 10:38 AM, A4E said: Knowledge that came from other people, and was created probably a fairly long time ago and likely including several people brainstorming. Which means it has a causal line to your head, and such actually a testament to determinism. This is a misunderstanding of knowledge which assumes that there is no action in learning. Look up the machine paradox of determinism. As well, cause and effect doesn't eliminate the concept of Free Will. On 5/21/2017 at 10:38 AM, A4E said: After your role has ended in death, then it is continued by other actors, or it could also be continued by you through all the various immortal communication options we have today. (text / videos). So your role is not pointless. Its just determined. A wheel spinning around is not pointless. It helps a car stay on the road and move forward. A carpenter making a house is not doing something pointless, he is building something for people to stay under in exchange for money to support himself or his own family. A boat keeping afloat is not pointless, its just determined to keep afloat and be able to protect anything from the water beneath. Everything you pointed to is man made and rely on a conception of meaning dependent on human existence and human meaning which is itself dependent on Free Will as I pointed to earlier. What is the meaning of these things if humanity is taken out of the question? On 5/21/2017 at 10:38 AM, A4E said: If you are going to make a case for a deterministic universe being pointless, then explain why just because it is determined and "not up to you", how that makes it pointless. Lots of people play the lottery which people might agree is determined and "not up to you" (since there is no human brain with the mythical free will involved), so why do they play it, if it is pointless? I know we are going in circles, but I am just trying to dig for some good substance other than "just because there would be no free will." Futile how exactly? You can not change your role no, but so what? Your role might create a completely free market on the entire planet, would you call your role futile if you made that happen? Action independent of choice is action which is independent of value and your ability to manifest that. This feels as if you keep moving the goal-post and you're assuming determinism, which faces not only the burden of proof but the epistemological problem. This argument is getting a bit.....pointless. Determinism is an epistemological contradiction and I don't think I have to argue these points over and over again when determinism faces so many other problems, it's like debating a theist while ignoring the basic metaphysical contradiction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neeeel Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Eudaimonic said: I think you're misunderstanding me, outcomes in a deterministic universe are set. There is no changing the outcome of anything, even those in the next moment. Your "actions" have no point or purpose because you can't do either X or Y you must do X. Your actions only have 'meaning' if they can determine the outcome. Meaning is a concept dependent on the assumption of free will and value i.e if I value something it is up to me to manifest that value in reality. If you value nothing, but have free will, you don't act, if you value something and don't have free will then whether or not what you value is manifested or not is not in your control, but has been predetermined. Beings that neither value nor have free will are animals or robots, therefore the lack of meaning in their behavior. This is a misunderstanding of knowledge which assumes that there is no action in learning. Look up the machine paradox of determinism. As well, cause and effect doesn't eliminate the concept of Free Will. Everything you pointed to is man made and rely on a conception of meaning dependent on human existence and human meaning which is itself dependent on Free Will as I pointed to earlier. What is the meaning of these things if humanity is taken out of the question? Action independent of choice is action which is independent of value and your ability to manifest that. This feels as if you keep moving the goal-post and you're assuming determinism, which faces not only the burden of proof but the epistemological problem. This argument is getting a bit.....pointless. Determinism is an epistemological contradiction and I don't think I have to argue these points over and over again when determinism faces so many other problems, it's like debating a theist while ignoring the basic metaphysical contradiction. But apparently in a deterministic universe, you can choose to feel despair and meaninglessness? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenages Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 On 21.5.2017 at 4:38 PM, A4E said: Futile how exactly? You can not change your role no, but so what? Your role might create a completely free market on the entire planet, would you call your role futile if you made that happen? Because the "you" is misplaced in this statement. The free market would not have been created by someone, but by something, actually it would not have been created at all, it would just unwind. The very same way a certain time is shown on a watch. Its shown not because a creative, thinking and choosing mind prefers a certain pointer position, but because some gears make it inevitable. It is futile to be proud to be a pointer. regards Andi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4E Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 3 hours ago, neeeel said: Determinism is an epistemological contradiction I tried to google epistemological contradiction, but did not get much useful. Could you define it for me? Are humans the only organism on this planet that has free will (the kind you are talking about)? If so, why? What is it with humans that allows for the free will you are talking about, and not for any other organism? You said that animals do not have the free will that you are talking about. So they have no point to their existence, and anything they do is futile. Is this a correct assessment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4E Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, Goldenages said: It is futile to be proud to be a pointer In a deterministic universe, humans feel what they are determined to feel. It makes no sense to try to inject futility, or anything else, into a closed system. You might as well be shouting at a movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldenages Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 10 hours ago, A4E said: 10 hours ago, Goldenages said: In a deterministic universe, humans feel what they are determined to feel. It makes no sense to try to inject futility, or anything else, into a closed system. You might as well be shouting at a movie. Shure. Just because we do not want the situation, does not exclude that it could be true. Fortunately, as said, we know that the universe is not a deterministic clockwork. regards Andi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A4E Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 37 minutes ago, Goldenages said: we know that the universe is not a deterministic clockwork Interesting. Please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts