My Journey with FDR

[amos]

Hello Guys

This will be a very long post... I want to share with you my journey with FDR so far:

I discovered Stefs podcasts on youtube about three or four years ago (I am now 27). I was watching a lot of political and atheist debates at the time. I think it could have been the video “19 tough questions for Libertarians”. Anyways I started to watch more and more of his videos and just loved the stuff. The NAP videos, the property rights, it all fit together and that was great, since in what I have heard before, there was always somewhere a hidden contradiction.

The next big milestone I think was the argument from morality and the UPB book. My interest started to shift towards ethics. (It had come from atheism over politics, society / economics, libertarianism / freedom). So I started really digging into the idea of rational scientific ethics, which I still find extremely fascinating and important. I am also currently working on a book of my own trying to improve UPB. I want to share it with you some day, but so far it is still not ready.

Also the RTR book was a real eyeopener for me. I think around 2 years ago I read it and also introduced it into my relationship with Rahel, my girlfriend. It had a truly wonderful effect on our relationship and allowed us to come closer and closer to each other ever since.

Then in November 2015 I saw the truth about circumcision video. It hit me like a hammer blow to the head! I have seen the video in the recommended videos on youtube for probably 2 months before I finally watched it. I think I was afraid of it. But I also wanted to see what Stef had to say about it, since it also pertains to me. I grew up Jewish, so I was circumcised just after birth. I was very shocked and confused and I went to Rahel and asked her to watch the video with me. She also was shocked and said that she had never thought about it, (Circumcision is not common in Europe), but that for sure we would never do this to our future kids.

The following month I was very shocked and disoriented, and I could barely think of anything else. I just could not grasp it that I was the victim of a human rights violation and that my parents were the perpetrators. In January 2016 I wrote them a letter that I handed to my mom when she came to visit the town where I now lived. I was stomach-turningly nervous and so was Rahel, when we went to meet her. (She came with me to assist me in this difficult task.) In the letter I told my parents that I have come to realize that circumcision was wrong, that I want to talk about it with them and that I expect an apology from them. I also put the link to the video in there. They have been very uncooperative in finding dates to talk about it. In the past 1.5 years we have maybe had 5 conversations about it, always initiated by me calling multiple times and insisting on it.

It is now also just one year that I started going to therapy. It was very hard for me to start going to therapy. I talked a lot about trying it to Rahel, but I never actually went and did it. In fact she started to go to therapy before I did because of exam anxiety. I supported her going to therapy very much, but I myself kept merely talking about it. At some point she kind of kicked my ass to just go and do it, which was a very good thing. She finished therapy after roughly a year, I am still in therapy and probably will be for some time to come.

I think I am now at the point where my emotions start to come back to life. I am still often dissociated, but sometimes I feel a lot of sadness or anger. It has happened twice in the past 4 weeks that I really broke down crying and sobbing. Also just two weeks ago I felt for the first time real anger towards my parents for an extended period of time. It was not just like a flair up that I immediately suppressed back to zero, but it lasted for around two days. The reason for this was that my mom has written me to invite me to a dinner at my grandparents birthday. I called her and said that I dont want to go there and act all happy as if everything was fine, but that I first want to sort out the things that we still have not sorted out. I also said that Rahel has offered to act as an arbitrator between us, since she felt (correctly) that we were not getting anywhere. So my mom said that she would talk it over with my dad and that we could maybe meet the following weekend (14 days ago). Then the next day she sent me a text that we could not meet on the weekend, because my dad was planning to go on a skiing trip the week after and these conversations make him feel unstable. (That btw was their reason why we could not continue the conversation for the past 7 weeks). So I felt that I got really angry. And the anger stayed with me. I called her the next evening and wanted to say that I was angry, but I could not bring myself to say the words. But I was so loaded, that she perfectly heard it out of my voice anyways. She then tried to calm me by making one concession after the other, until she offered that we could meet just the two of us on the up coming weekend (14 days ago).

So we met to talk together. She had asked again that she still does not understand exactly what I want from them. So I said again (probably for the third time) that I want to be able to have a real relationship with them. I want to be able to share thoughts and feelings that are important to me and I would also like that they would share more important memories, thoughts and feelings with me. And that being able to have a real relationship requires that they respect me as a fully fledged human being, which means for one, that they do not have the right to cut of an important body part of mine. And then it started again with the evading and fogging and so on and I felt that I got angry again. I said that this is a prime example of what I am talking about, since I am explicitly stating a feeling and a desire of mine and now I am again in a position that I have to justify myself instead of being heard and understood.

She said that she and my dad would be willing to come to a psychologist of my choosing with me, of which I was positively surprised. But at the end of our conversation I felt very strongly that there is no point to it. I felt that we would just go through the motions but nothing would come out of it. It was a weird feeling, it felt like a cold kind of certainty. I am not sure what will come next but this feeling has not changed since then. I feel like the guy that has always tried to find the hidden door in the wall of a castle, and has suddenly realized that there is no door, just a wall. So now I am standing in front of the wall kind of dumbstruck and sort of starting to look around and trying to regain my orientation. It is a really weird but also kind of a good feeling. I also feel like I have a ton of sadness inside me which I sometimes feel, but mostly I am dissociated from it.

Even though I often feel a lot of sadness and sometimes anger, I generally feel much better and happier than I ever did in the past 15 years. I am happy that I start to have feelings, even though it is kind of unfamiliar and a bit curious. I am happy that I feel my confidence rise and that I can start to stand in for myself. I am happy that I have such a wonderful relationship and a wonderful vision for my future family (unschooling, peaceful parenting, attachment parenting). I am happy that I have a good compass (ethics) to navigate by through the difficulties of life. Philosophy is a stony road and I sure have many stones still before me, but I feel that I am on the right road and that makes me feel positive and happy.

[Spenc]

Would it be reasonable to assume that your parents have a strategy that has worked consistently in the past in dealing with you, that they can just kind of stall and things will blow over?  Do you have a history of being assertive?  Were the times that you were assertive in the past outbursts that leaked out of you, only for you to return to being more passive and subject to their desires?

 

If that is the case, perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to bring that up as a topic before you get to the other more pertinent issues that are bothering you.  Stef did a show long ago with a caller talking about how his friends weren't responding well to the caller trying to expand the scope and depth of their friendship by introducing the types of content that FDR dealt with.  Stef told the guy, "Well, of course not, you can't just change a relationship because the people had chosen the relationship that is pre-existing not the one you're trying to change to.  At the very least, you need to explicitly state that you are trying to change the relationship so that they understand why you're talking about different things and put it in context."

 

So yeah, I think you've done a great job by pointing out that the reason you are talking about these things is so that you can improve the relationship and have it be meaningful.  Kudos for that.  Also, great on you for pointing out that you don't want to have a happy family dinner when they are not responding to the important issues you have been pressing them on for weeks first.  Their natural response to that though would just be to dig in further and stall longer until they can placate you like they did in the past.  So perhaps, go one step further and acknowledge your previous behaviours that allowed them to manipulate you, and point out that you are changing this about yourself, mentioning therapy and whatever else, and then make it clear that the stalling tactic isn't going to work, and it's only going to exacerbate the problems.  I would also not accuse them of being conscious of the stalling tactic.  The same way you would allow yourself to be placated to find peace in the home, and it just mutated itself into a habit in your mind, they could just have adopted the strategy without it being intentional or conscious.  Like, it could manifest as nervousness or anxiety that causes them to withdraw, and then they find you placated after a withdrawal, which reinforces the behaviour of withdrawing to certain stress.

 

Anyways, I hope some of that is relevant to your circumstance, as I've kind of just assumed you were deficient in assertiveness before getting a response or confirmation.

[Tyler H]

Hi Amos, thanks for sharing.  Reminds me a lot of my journey.  I don't have much to add to what Spenc said, but I wanted to note my agreement, and I also wanted to express my admiration for the actions you've taken so far to create a better life for yourself and your future children.  Bravo my friend!

[amos]

Thank you, both of you for your kind responses. And you are totally correct with your assumption. I do not have a history of assertiveness at all. Rather to the contrary. Infact Rahel has also said something similar to what you now said, though not as precisely formulated. They seem to think it is just a phase, "amos is just beeing a bit difficult" so they dig in deep and wait for the storm to be over.

I Find your advice to openly talk about this very usefull and i think i will try this next time. I have had a talk with adrian (my dad) 2 days ago and i did fall back into a lot of childhood habits. It took me a day to realize the many small put downs and suttle insults that i just absorbed without consciously noticing. I am now quite angry when i think back on that.

So thanks again for the advice and i will let you know what came out of it. Also Rahel and i have decided that from now on we go to these kind of conversations together, so that i have a friend by my side to give me some security.

[amos]

Hello Everybody

So, it has been a long time since my last post in May. For some reason i feel a lot of resistance to getting involved in the fdr community, even though a part of me really wants to. But that's a question that i plan to work on for my self soon.

After the start of June i have not seen or talked to my parents until 5 weeks ago. I met them 5 weeks ago and one week ago. They came to my apartment to talk twice. After the meeting 5 weeks ago i cried a lot, and i was very proud of myself. I RTR'd the whole time and always said how i felt in the moment at the beginning of every sentence. The meeting ended with my dad getting angry and saying that i basically demand of him that he repent his "sin" of wanting to pass the jewish tradition on to me and that he does not feel he wants to or can do that. And i got angry and said that he basically demands from me that i ignore the fact that he had the most sensitive part of my body cut off and forced me to do things i didnt want to do for 20 years and that i just go over and have a pleasant family dinner with them, which i cant and dont want to do.

Last weeks meeting was far more difficult for me and i think i was more dissociated before during and after the meeting. My dad basically apologized to me for not being able to comunicate better when i was around 22-ish and decided that i no longer wanted to join the family to synagogue on every holiday. (for appeasment i said i would come only on the important holidays even though i didnt want to go at all.) My dad then basically didnt talk to me or look at me for over two weeks until i asked him if he was angry at me which he then denied... So for this he apologized last week, for not being able to communicate better. But the whole meeting had a quite sour flavour to it since basically he was so sad and upset that i ended up having a lot of understanding for how difficult this must be for him, instead of him having understanding for me. Also he did not apologize for forcing me to join synagogue, he only apologized for not being able to communicate better when i finally decided to no longer join each time.

Since last weekend i feel i fell back into some older habits of mine which also lead to me hurting Rahel (my girlfriend) yesterday morning with a very depreciative glance, which hurt her and our relationship a lot. I feel that after almost two years of me trying to talk to my parents there has been still no indication of them changing in a positive direction. And after this last incident i feel that my efforts are not only not productive but also dangerous to my future happiness and my relationships to Rahel and others. So thinking about all this i decided this morning that it is time to separate from them for trial and see how i feel after doing so. Also i had a dream this night, which indicated to me that i should do exactely that. I also talked about this with Rahel and she understands and supports my decision fully.

I would very much appreciate it if you could read through my defoo letter below and give me a brief feedback on it. Thank you a lot!

****************************************************

Hi Mom, Hi Adi (my dad’s name)

Since our last conversation, I have increasingly fallen back into old patterns. This harms me in my personal development and in my relationship with Rahel. I would therefore like to take a break from contact with you in the near future so that I can better understand and organize my feelings. Please do not contact me during this time, I will contact you again as soon as I wish.

Best regards

Amos

 

 

 

[barn]

Hi Amos,

Please accept my sympathy, I have read all that you wrote and must say: You should be proud of yourself amongst many other things to demonstrate maturity and treating your needs/feelings as valid and rightful parts. You're definitely working on assertiveness.

It seems to me (amateur opinion) that you have outgrown your parents and from what you'd shared I'm not getting an overabundance of wanting to understand you better from your parents. I feel the lack of authentic curiosity from their part. Sorry, man. I do know how that might feel.

A few more thoughts.

Keep treating your emotions and needs as valid, 'Yes, of course I embrace all my parts. I'm a masterwork in the making, most valuable to me.' . Even anger. Hurting others is another thing. I mean, manipulative people will try to make you self-regulate by not allowing you the emotions that otherwise serve as an immune system, inoculation against 'users'. I.e.: To a statement - "I'm angry with you!" the answer shouldn't be "Oh, I'm sorry. Now, here..don't be, it's not such a big deal... bla-bla excuses..."

 

The other thing is pertaining to the letter. Has it occurred to you that you don't have to explain yourself? You're not obliged to detail and give reasons. You are free to be yourself and establish your boundaries now. Heck, I don't see why you should say so much if it took them soo much effort to cater to your needs when you expressed doubts...

Have you thought about to just take a holiday from the relationship? I.e.: 'I need some time to think, after which I'll be in contact.' (change of email, numbers, profiles = peace of mind, until you want, if you want)

Friends don't come with certificates, there's no contract signing.

You don't choose your friends. They choose you for who you are.

A baby elephant is sometimes tied to a stick in captivity so it doesn't wonder off. Strangely, the same adult elephant if also secured with the same weak rope while it could easily snap it... for some reason it still thinks that would be impossible and never tries to.

All the best Amos!

Barnsley

[wyattstorch]

Hi, Amos. As someone going through a similar situation, and still in the early stages of it, I know it's tough going. Hang in there, stay strong. Your letter is fine, in itself. I'd only advise that you keep in mind to temper your expectations of what you hope to achieve with it. If you need to send it, or if it's for your own benefit, and keep it to yourself, is your choice. But temper your expectations of what you expect from them, whether they will change, or react/respond, etc.

Best to you.

[wyattstorch]

Also, I'll add some advice that was given to me, regarding managing expectations and going forward: you can't act from, or act to achieve a negative. I was trying to figure out the best way to go "no contact" that would cause the least amount of hurt or damage, when I asked about how to do it (should I write a letter, say something in person, etc...). It was put to me this way: "for what value am I acting to keep?". And, that my framing of the question was off. I was asking how to achieve a negative value (how NOT to do/achieve something), and not a positive value. It was said that that approach blows my whole expectation of yourself and reality "out of the water" and  resulted only made me anxious, depressed, fearful, obsessed, etc. Once I looked at the opposite approach, of trying to create a value, it didn't make it "easy", but it alleviate those conditions. Hope that helps. 

[Tyler H]

On 11/9/2017 at 5:25 AM, amos said:

Hi Mom, Hi Adi (my dad’s name)

Since our last conversation, I have increasingly fallen back into old patterns. This harms me in my personal development and in my relationship with Rahel. I would therefore like to take a break from contact with you in the near future so that I can better understand and organize my feelings. Please do not contact me during this time, I will contact you again as soon as I wish.

Best regards

Amos

Hi Amos. I am sorry to hear that your efforts to connect with your parents have not resulted in an improved relationship. I think your letter is fine. What else could you say that you haven’t already said? If the answer to that is nothing then I think a concise message like yours is apt.

Again, I’m really very sorry that your parents made the choices they did. 

[amos]

Hello my friends

Thank you all a lot for your kind words and your understanding. I have just sent the email. I dont exactely know what i feel... I feel a bit nervous / scared, probably from some angry reaction on their part, and some doubt that i have made a horrible mistake. But i also feel a lot of excitement and energy, as if i just got out from under a huge load and was just looking around myself. I feel kind of free and energized to do whatever i want.

@barn Thank you for your encouragement and for your sympathy. Rahel and i also think that i have outgrown my parents and that they do not display any sign of truly changing or showing more curiosity for my experience / feelings. I do also think that i have made good progress in becoming more assertive. Thank you also for pointing out, that i can and should embrace all my parts, also my anger. This is something that i also have been working on in the last year.

@wyattstorch Thank you also for your encouragement. I do not know what reaction i expect from them, i hope they will respect my wish and not contact me for as long as i wish. The point you make that i cant act to gain / keep a negative is a good one. The thing i wish to gain is freedom. Freedom in my thinking, feeling, and acting. And this freedom is hindered by me staying in contact with my parents if they refuse to see me as a full human being with equally valid feelings and desires. Also i am sorry to hear that you are going through a similar situation. I wish you much strength and courage to go the path that is best for your own personal happiness.

@Tyler H  Thank you for your sympathy. Your question is directly to the point. I really feel like there is noting more that i could say to them. Also pointing out that it is their choices that play a key role in how our relationship has developped is very helpful to see things in the right perspective.

[barn]

 

I felt you deserved a bit longer response due to how I experienced our interaction, 'tis will be a long one..

2 hours ago, amos said:

I feel a bit nervous / scared,

 

So you are alive and not a bot/denying your reality. Although it isn't easy to do, in my humble opinion this is the best part of life. Treating oneself and others with respect and allowing them to act out of their free choice. When I first did this in my relationships I experienced things I had never expected to. Seeing life and the my place in it became so much more simpler, necessary realisations were coming, one after another.

 

While feelings are astonishingly good indicators, packed with symbols and deep and powerful information, they represent also a potential of great force. If you aren't careful, they can overwhelm you when you should be productive or a bit more objective.

Please give my deep thanks to Rahel for being there for you and a big thank you hug to yourself for attending therapy, sharing with your support group! I certainly think you deserve it!

What I'm trying to say here is (having a great deal of experience in defoo-ing, re-discovering my self, duties-responsabilities/needs to myself) is that while this whole thing is a great importance and probably has a hefty chunk of your attention... You will need time and energy/resources to process it adequately. Sort of when [1] Neo goes to see the Oracle and she tells him "you are here to understand the decision you made/not to make it" - she's highlighting continuity, the next possible section of the path. Consider allocating the right amount of energy in helping your progress, just as in this matter as in 'not getting caught up too much'.

[1] - (I'm likening Neo as you now, the Oracle as your 1 aspect of your inner self now and the decision that led you up to this point in life as a result of the past decision of the round table counsel where all your selves/meco system partook choosing.)

 

I believe it can be helpful if I shared what came after I had made a similar decision in my life. Your experience may differ and the usual caveats...

As I had not learnt what it meant to be catering to my own needs (how could I, I came from a background with missing examples. My peers didn't want to, rather wanted to tell me my experience, steer me towards not being 'difficult'.) At first, having defooed life seemed less complicated but deep inside I had many doubts. Nevertheless, I thought of it as a 'passing storm', a 'hard period' in life that had to be survived, one day looking back at it with passing interest. Little did I know that by not being supportive in the process of understanding and 'being there for myself when I needed' it would bite me in the ass later, big time. Furthermore the consequences, when they did show up, were grown AND in an area I had not even suspected they would... It hit me hard. (Ever since then, I have a deep rooted indifference when someone says: "Ignorance is bliss!" No it's not, it's disaster in the making! ) So finally, after a considerable amount of time I decided to go back(reviewing my past) and this time take a different approach. It can be summed up as: I'm curious, patient and have philosophy on my side to understand if not entirely at least to make progress. Only understand, no decisions or avoidance. I quickly realised that I was lacking the framework and sometimes things I uncovered would have tentacles reaching into previously unsuspected areas. Keeping a general diary and regular short bursts of meditation, supplemented with discussions amongst my support group would lead me towards

0. Gandalf and Frodo speaking in the mines of Moria (read it/watch it if you can, you'll know why I consider it above all else)

1. Nathaniel Branden - sentence competition I and II (while also reinforced other beneficial systems improving my industriousness, perfectly in line with UPB when reflecting and what you produce in the process 'matures like a good wine over time'.)

a. prof. Jordan B. Peterson - big 5 personality assessment (epiphanies of course but on top of them... rrreally useful indicators to better align, position my approach in respect to who I'm) Will do the past authoring next in the near future too.

2. Raised awareness in the importance of life's framework (pre-requisites to anything, really) ROUTINES :

 a. GTD (get things done) system, so far I haven't found anything simpler/works like a charm and immediately delivering results, continously stacking positive consequences.

 b. paying more attention to sleeping, eating, working schedules while also introducing planned BREAKS

 c. Mike Cernovich - Gorilla mindset, stories from his podcasts, interviews where he shows integrity too.. (Thanks man! I appreciate the energy and conviction! Very smart, brave guy!) makes a dazzlingly important point of PAYING ATTENTION TO THE INNER TALK and provides great tools.

 

These were my 'two cents', I'll be looking forward to seeing you here whenever you have anything to say.

Keep up with the good work!

Barnsley

 

 

[Spenc]

I think you wrote a perfectly good letter.  Remember that if you have closure and are ready to extract yourself from the FOO, then your actions and statements should be in line with achieving that goal.  You're done trying to communicate with them, explain your perspective, etc. so your letter is ONLY to get you out with as little blowback as possible, right?

I think you've done a good job of this.  1. You've given the the opportunity to place the blame on you: YOU 'have fallen back into old patterns'.  2. You've given them indication in the past that they can just come back in 6 months in the future, and now you're calling it a 'break' and that you will contact them at some indeterminate time in the future when you;re ready.  So you've bought yourself months of freedom to get yourself fully away.  3. You seem to be a young man, so you should have a relatively easy time moving, getting a new phone number, switching e-mails, etc. as you see fit to make it so they have no means to waltz back in 6 months expecting to see you again

I hope it's all going to plan since you posted