Peaceful parenting and consequences for undesirable behavior

[Rooster]

I would very much appreciate some ideas on how to deal with situations when my child simply won’t reason or negotiate in any way. She is 5 years old. 

I really want to avoid situations where I have to take something away from my child. For example, I’m trying to keep her TV watching to a minimum so she has a set amount of screen time. I talk to her about this and explain as well as I can why I believe this is important. Sometimes she will start watching TV later on, after her she has already used up her screen time. I’ll ask her to turn the TV off, explain why, remind her of agreements we have, etc, but she just won’t do it. I don’t want to have to unplug the TV and put it in the closet, take the remotes out of her hands, threaten with other things being taken away like treats or things like that. 

What strategies can I use to deal with these kinds of situations where she doesn’t seem to care one bit when I tell her she can’t do something (and explain why)?

 

[neeeel]

Did you actually make an agreement? IE, did you discuss it, negotiate over how long she could watch, back and forth, until you both agreed? If you did, then you can point out that she agreed and is breaking her agreement. Point out the negatives of breaking an agreement

I am guessing you didnt actually negotiate and agree though. I would guess you just laid down what her screen time would be. 

[Rooster]

I didn't completely dictate the amount of time, but you are probably right that she might not have been on board 100%,  so point taken there. Thank you.

Another type of situation where I struggle with this is when something just comes up, so not much room for negotiation. This would be when she wants to do something that require supervision, but I'm not able to do it at the very moment. I'll explain that I can help her in a few minutes, but she will go ahead and gather the things she wants to use. I'll explain why I can't do it right now and reiterate that I can help her in just a moment, but she will sometimes just ignore that and go about her business starting the activity. This stuff scares me, because all though it's usually not dangerous things situations, I think to myself, what if there would be a dangerous situations where she would not listen to me.

[RichardY]

Maybe there's an authority figure you could have her speak to like a grandparent perhaps. If she likes reading encourage that, even if she reads late into the night.

[_LiveFree_]

7 hours ago, Rooster said:

I would very much appreciate some ideas on how to deal with situations when my child simply won’t reason or negotiate in any way. She is 5 years old. 

I really want to avoid situations where I have to take something away from my child. For example, I’m trying to keep her TV watching to a minimum so she has a set amount of screen time. I talk to her about this and explain as well as I can why I believe this is important. Sometimes she will start watching TV later on, after her she has already used up her screen time. I’ll ask her to turn the TV off, explain why, remind her of agreements we have, etc, but she just won’t do it. I don’t want to have to unplug the TV and put it in the closet, take the remotes out of her hands, threaten with other things being taken away like treats or things like that. 

What strategies can I use to deal with these kinds of situations where she doesn’t seem to care one bit when I tell her she can’t do something (and explain why)?

 

 

6 hours ago, neeeel said:

Did you actually make an agreement? IE, did you discuss it, negotiate over how long she could watch, back and forth, until you both agreed? If you did, then you can point out that she agreed and is breaking her agreement. Point out the negatives of breaking an agreement

I am guessing you didnt actually negotiate and agree though. I would guess you just laid down what her screen time would be. 

 

5 hours ago, Rooster said:

I didn't completely dictate the amount of time, but you are probably right that she might not have been on board 100%,  so point taken there. Thank you.

Another type of situation where I struggle with this is when something just comes up, so not much room for negotiation. This would be when she wants to do something that require supervision, but I'm not able to do it at the very moment. I'll explain that I can help her in a few minutes, but she will go ahead and gather the things she wants to use. I'll explain why I can't do it right now and reiterate that I can help her in just a moment, but she will sometimes just ignore that and go about her business starting the activity. This stuff scares me, because all though it's usually not dangerous things situations, I think to myself, what if there would be a dangerous situations where she would not listen to me.

 

Why does she want to watch so much TV? Does she have alternatives? Do you go with her to play outside with friends? TV is typically what children do when they have nothing else. In other words, her watching so much TV is her saying, "Dad! I'm so bored!" Have you asked her why she wants to watch so much TV? Have you asked her why TV is important to her? Notice I'm not saying things like, "Tell her how you feel about tv," etc.  Something is going on that makes your 5 year old want to spend more time watching TV than creating something, playing with her parents, playing with her friends, or whatever. That means TV is more valuable to her than those things. Or maybe those things are not as available to her as they need to be. 

 

Have you considered that your next example maybe why she watches TV? Why can't you do what she wants right then? Do you eventually go with her to do whatever (like after a few minutes), or does she have to wait?  Not to be offensive, but she watches TV to replace you. And you are allowing it because you are not showing her the respect she needs to form the type of bond you want with her. I do not have children but I do have a live-in girlfriend. There are very few things on this planet that would make me tell her to wait. 

[zoomharp]

Our strategy was to discuss and negotiate situations before, not during. At a quiet time, when parent-child love is in the air, you say, "Let's talk about...." And then you focus on 1) what will be ok more than what won't be ok, 2) how the child views your boundaries or the situation, 3) what you can agree on, 4) what will happen when the situation comes up and the child doesn't "hold up their end of the agreement."  The message of love and mutual respect need to come through.  Good luck! 

 

Book recommendation: "Kids are worth it" by Barbara Coloroso.

[Mister Mister]

I am not a parent, but I work with kids in their homes and I witness different styles of parenting.  One of the biggest problems, in my opinion, is that parents fail to delineate the difference between

  - Immoral behavior: hitting, stealing

  - Unaesthetic behavior: screaming, lying, rudeness, dirtiness, etc.

  - Parent's particular preferences: I don't want you watching TV during these hours, I want you to eat your vegetables, take your shoes off in the house, we pray towards Mecca 5 times a day, etc.

  Obviously there is some overlap between some of these; for example lying about stealing something is more in the category if immoral behavior.  Watching 10 hours of TV a day or eating nothing but candy, is objectively unhealthy and not aesthetic.  But I think it's important that we know the difference, and that our children know the difference.  Otherwise things tend to devolve into the helicopter parent model of just constantly barking orders at a kid "do this, don't do that, etc.", (very similar to how, when we abandon principles of a limited constitutional republic, things devolve into a constantly growing list of unknowable regulations).  

  Immoral behavior are things which are binding on everyone, Universally Preferable Behavior.  Aesthetics are things which are objectively in the child's best interest, as far as physical, mental, emotional, and social health.  Preferences are just things that you prefer.  So each one requires a different kind of argument.  The catch is, that your child now has the ability to mirror these arguments back at you.  So if you hold your child to certain moral rules and aesthetic behaviors, they can hold you to them in return.  And if you argue for certain preferences, your child can assert their preferences as well.  If you do not respond positively when your child does this (which most parents do not), you are doing harm to your child's ability to think critically and respond to authority. If reason and negotiation apply only to a child, but not an adult, then they are a scam, just a manipulative tool to control those with less power than you.  So peaceful parenting requires a kind of humility and self knowledge and integrity which most people simply do not have at this moment in time.

  Those are just my thoughts on the subject, I hope that helps.

[Rooster]

Thank you all for the feedback. 

The TV was just an example. The more general question was for strategies when prior agreement has not taken place for whatever reason, when an unforeseen situation arises, and a child will ignore what you are telling them or asking of them. 

 

[Rooster]

20 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Have you considered that your next example maybe why she watches TV? Why can't you do what she wants right then? Do you eventually go with her to do whatever (like after a few minutes), or does she have to wait?  Not to be offensive, but she watches TV to replace you. And you are allowing it because you are not showing her the respect she needs to form the type of bond you want with her. I do not have children but I do have a live-in girlfriend. There are very few things on this planet that would make me tell her to wait. 

I'm a single parent (not by choice). There are many situations when I can't just drop what I'm doing, like standing in the kitchen with oven mittens on taking our dinner out of the oven, or having to take a work call, and I tend to her as soon as I'm done. So yes, I do go with her after a few minutes. 

[S1988]

56 minutes ago, Rooster said:

I'm a single parent (not by choice).

Are you a widower?

[_LiveFree_]

1 hour ago, Rooster said:

I'm a single parent (not by choice). There are many situations when I can't just drop what I'm doing, like standing in the kitchen with oven mittens on taking our dinner out of the oven, or having to take a work call, and I tend to her as soon as I'm done. So yes, I do go with her after a few minutes. 

And have you talked with her about these situations outside of when they happen? 

[Rooster]

2 hours ago, S1988 said:

Are you a widower?

No, I'm not. However, the mother has checked out quite bit and is not really onboard with the concept of peaceful parenting. I was not aware of the concept when I became a father, but intuitively was close to many of the principles. I'm the primary caregiver since we separated. 

[Rooster]

1 hour ago, _LiveFree_ said:

And have you talked with her about these situations outside of when they happen? 

Yes, I try to prepare for these things, but it's a learning process and I have much still to cover. 

[_LiveFree_]

10 hours ago, Rooster said:

Yes, I try to prepare for these things, but it's a learning process and I have much still to cover. 

So if you're daughter expects your attention right away even though you're holding very hot food fresh out of the oven, and you've talked to her about this situation beforehand that you have to finish your task first then you will be with her, but she still doesn't get it, . . . . . she sounds mildly retarded.

 

that, or you're lying. Which I suspect since you said it wasn't your choice to be single parent, yet your wife still lives. If you think I'm being harsh, I don't care. This is the truth. Now, what response do you have? What parts of this problem do you claim ownership for?

Do you think you and your wife not being together has affected your daughter in some ways?

Edited June 9, 2017 by _LiveFree_
clarification

[Rooster]

5 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

So if you're daughter expects your attention right away even though you're holding very hot food fresh out of the oven, and you've talked to her about this situation beforehand that you have to finish your task first then you will be with her, but she still doesn't get it, . . . . . she sounds mildly retarded.

that, or you're lying. Which I suspect since you said it wasn't your choice to be single parent, yet your wife still lives. If you think I'm being harsh, I don't care. This is the truth. Now, what response do you have? What parts of this problem do you claim ownership for?

Do you think you and your wife not being together has affected her in some ways?

I'm her parent. I claim ownership of all of it, and I'm trying to improve my parenting skills. What have I said to lead you to believe I'm not claiming ownership of this situation? Why would I even be on here asking advice if I didn't think the problem was my parenting?

Of course I think me and my wife not being together has an effect on her, but as previously stated, that was not my choice. 

Also mentioned previously, I'm going through a learning process and I have not covered everything. I have not specifically talked to her about being unable to help her while taking dinner out of the oven, that was just to illustrate the kind of situations that will come up when finding yourself caring for a young child alone all of a sudden. 

[Rooster]

16 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

So if you're daughter expects your attention right away even though you're holding very hot food fresh out of the oven, and you've talked to her about this situation beforehand that you have to finish your task first then you will be with her, but she still doesn't get it, . . . . . she sounds mildly retarded.

 

that, or you're lying. Which I suspect since you said it wasn't your choice to be single parent, yet your wife still lives. If you think I'm being harsh, I don't care. This is the truth. Now, what response do you have? What parts of this problem do you claim ownership for?

Do you think you and your wife not being together has affected your daughter in some ways?

I'm her parent. I claim ownership of all of it, and I'm trying to improve my parenting skills. What have I said to lead you to believe I'm not claiming ownership of this situation? Why would I even be on here asking advice if I didn't think the problem was my parenting?

Of course I think me and my wife not being together has an effect on her, but as previously stated, that was not my choice. 

Also mentioned previously, I'm going through a learning process and I have not covered everything. I have not specifically talked to her about being unable to help her while taking dinner out of the oven, that was just to illustrate the kind of situations that will come up when finding yourself caring for a young child alone all of a sudden. 

[_LiveFree_]

Your passive language in this situation shows me you do not claim ownership....

 

14 hours ago, Rooster said:

I'm her parent. I claim ownership of all of it, and I'm trying to improve my parenting skills. What have I said to lead you to believe I'm not claiming ownership of this situation? Why would I even be on here asking advice if I didn't think the problem was my parenting?

Of course I think me and my wife not being together has an effect on her, but as previously stated, that was not my choice. 

Also mentioned previously, I'm going through a learning process and I have not covered everything. I have not specifically talked to her about being unable to help her while taking dinner out of the oven, that was just to illustrate the kind of situations that will come up when finding yourself caring for a young child alone all of a sudden. 

- Really? You married her. You didn't think that far ahead? 

- Part of the learning process is learning to stop making excuses. By holding yourself accountable for your actions, you'll gain the self-esteem required to hold others accountable and the respect from others required to influence their behaviors. 

 

On 6/7/2017 at 9:33 AM, Rooster said:

I would very much appreciate some ideas on how to deal with situations when my child simply won’t reason or negotiate in any way. She is 5 years old. 

I really want to avoid situations where I have to take something away from my child. For example, I’m trying to keep her TV watching to a minimum so she has a set amount of screen time. I talk to her about this and explain as well as I can why I believe this is important. Sometimes she will start watching TV later on, after her she has already used up her screen time. I’ll ask her to turn the TV off, explain why, remind her of agreements we have, etc, but she just won’t do it. I don’t want to have to unplug the TV and put it in the closet, take the remotes out of her hands, threaten with other things being taken away like treats or things like that. 

What strategies can I use to deal with these kinds of situations where she doesn’t seem to care one bit when I tell her she can’t do something (and explain why)?

 

- Your child learned how to not negotiate from you and your wife. It's not that she "just doesn't". 

- Avoid situations where you have to take something away? You mean avoid failing as a father? Unless there is a direct and immediate threat to her well being, what right do you have to take anything from her? Especially if you're the cause of the situation.

- What does she not care about in this situation? Answer: You. Painful as hell to hear and uncomfortable for me to write. But you need to see this.  You can't have the relationship you want with her unless you address the current state of your relationship now.

 

23 hours ago, Rooster said:

I'm a single parent (not by choice). There are many situations when I can't just drop what I'm doing, like standing in the kitchen with oven mittens on taking our dinner out of the oven, or having to take a work call, and I tend to her as soon as I'm done. So yes, I do go with her after a few minutes. 

- Unless your wife unexpectedly died or was whisked away by aliens, you are part of the choices that led to being a single parent. 

- You can always drop what you're doing. One of the greatest golfers in history, Phil Mickelson, just skipped out on one of the biggest championships of the year, which would mean he would lose out on achieving a "Grand Slam". Something only a handful of golfers have achieved in their careers. Why? To watch his daughter graduate. I think you can put down the burgers for a minute. Or tell your business call you'll call them back.

 

20 hours ago, Rooster said:

Yes, I try to prepare for these things, but it's a learning process and I have much still to cover. 

- Do or do not.

- More excuses. 

 

Listen, I'm being very upfront with you. I know this is jarring. I know quite a few people would object to my approach. They'd be wrong. If you want what you say you want, a close, meaningful, respectful, loving relationship with your daughter so that she will listen to you and negotiate with you, then stop with the bullshit.  

 

And taking Mike (MMD) up on his offer would be a great step. The waiting list is extremely long; looks like Mike is willing to bump you up to get you on sooner. 

[Rooster]

On 6/9/2017 at 10:06 AM, MMD said:

Email me and I'd be happy to schedule you for the show.

Thank you Mike. I really appreciate that. I just sent you an email to [email protected].

[Jsbrads]

Best of luck with the show and everything.

I put lying in immoral category. I was surprised to be challenged on that and we discussed that in my post Teaching Children to Lie. See there.

I do agree that being single, while not your choice, is something for which you are culpable. I don't see arguing that point tho. I am not perfect, and I don't expect you to be perfect 6 yrs ago or now. We don't have discuss any areas you aren't ready to hash out right now or even if willing, if you want to limit the scope of this discussion, I understand that too.

I think that you should try to get more positive adults into your daughters life. Certainly not a bunch of girlfriends who show up randomly. Parenting should be your priority. Immediate family is an amazing resource if you have healthy members to draw upon.

As to worrying, that does seem to be a natural part of parenting. She does sound very independent, and I have heard advice given praticularly for high energy children, to give them more latitude (especially easy when dealing with one child) and my friend's boy turned out really well (he's an adult now).

I am sure Stefan has spoken about dating. I am for it. I don't think you should be a monk. But be careful. Only introduce your daughter when you are sure. My neighbor married a woman with a daughter and things seem to be going well.