The Modern Antagonist

[M.2]

I heard this theory from a person I deeply respect, and it seems spot on to me, but I just wanted to run it through FDR to get some additional thoughts. He advised me to become the modern antagonist.

 

According to this very smart person, the modern portrayal of the fictional antagonist in movies and books is actually the ideal man by conservative values. The modern antagonist has a clear and well-defined set of values, an objective to which he strives with all his will, and he also happens to be very eloquent in his speech and sophisticated in his behaviour, mysterious, and very charismatic. Their most notable trait to me is that they believe they are serving a cause more noble and worthy than themselves.
All the "flaws" of the modern antagonist seem to be things that don't really seem like flaws to me to be honest. Such may be that he is pragmatic, rude, cold and crude, merciless, impatient, mean, sometimes too ugly, or other times too handsome, too forceful, judgmental, Lately, for some weird reason, they like portraying him as a family man.

On the other side, the protagonist seems to have evolved into something pretty... undesirable. He (more often than earlier a she) is usually a person who has undefined ideals, very vague goals, a rebellious attitude, an incomplete character, influencable and weak will, emotional instability, terrible friends, zero charisma, average looks, uncontrollable sex-drive, submissive personality, but god almighty... extraordinary talents. Although the protagonist also thinks he is serving a great cause, he is always quite sure that he will have a part in it, and that the cause can be achieved pretty quickly, simply, and that happyend is in his favour anyway.

If the modern protagonist was the ideal that formed the millenial generation, then it is no wonder some of them turned out such insufferable rebellious whiners, all of whom believe that everything is about them, and that they are special, and that they are always only targeted by expendable stormtroopers that cannot aim.
If their picture of the bad guy was drawn by such ideas, then it is no wonder that they consider the most competent people on the planet to be evil. Such being Trump, Putin, Duterte, and Farage.

 

This theory put a lot of things in place for me, as more often than not, I usually find myself rooting for the supposed bad guys. 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

9 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

According to this very smart person, the modern portrayal of the fictional antagonist in movies and books is actually the ideal man by conservative values. The modern antagonist has a clear and well-defined set of values, an objective to which he strives with all his will, and he also happens to be very eloquent in his speech and sophisticated in his behaviour, mysterious, and very charismatic. Their most notable trait to me is that they believe they are serving a cause more noble and worthy than themselves.
All the "flaws" of the modern antagonist seem to be things that don't really seem like flaws to me to be honest. Such may be that he is pragmatic, rude, cold and crude, merciless, impatient, mean, sometimes too ugly, or other times too handsome, too forceful, judgmental, Lately, for some weird reason, they like portraying him as a family man.

An interesting theory, let's iron it out.

First off, in what modern movies were the main villains "conservative"? It could be argued Gru in Despicable Me is a cuckservative because he adopts children, then gets married without any implication of having his own children, but that's a stretch. I haven't watched many modern movies, especially modern movies for children, even back when I was a child since they mostly sucked compared to their Japanese rivals; anime.

Using three popular anime as a case study; Inuyasha; Fullmetal Alchemist (First Series); and Naruto (First Series--not going to count Shippuden since I haven't finished that super long thing and probably won't find the time for it until I have a miraculously long vacation to enjoy it when I'm, say, 80), we will attempt to "figure out" what modern Japanese culture sees to the good guy versus the bad guy in fiction meant for teenagers. 

I'd appreciate it if you or someone else could find modern American counterparts since the only modern American fiction have I have real knowledge of would The Regular Show, Steven Universe, and lastly (but certainly not least) Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Since this paragraph I'm quoting is about villains, I'll start with the villains of the these series.

Inuyasha's: Naraku: A highly cynical and manipulative spider (literally and figuratively) who used to live as a human bandit before being suffering burns that paralyzed him, and lusting after the woman that tended to him. After selling his soul to the thousands of demons wanting in on his evil heart, he pretty much became a directionless sociopath and schizophrenic without any idea why he wants the ultimate power of the "Shikon Jewel", but he has no qualms in killing and abusing others to get the shards needed for it. He's ruthless, cruel, power-hungry, and easily one of the most evil characters conceived of with a background of being a deadbeat ne'er-do-well to boot. It isn't until the final moments anything remotely humane in him comes alive, and it is in realizing why he was seeking ultimate power in the first place. Sadly it didn't go full Stefbot and talk about what must have been a horrible childhood in Feudal Japan's endless wars.

Fullmetal Alchemist: Pride/Der Fuhrer: I could argue someone else is the main antagonist, but she doesn't make herself visible until a while later, and I'd say this anime's equivalent to Hitler (with a Stalin-like mustache and grin) is the most visible face of antagonism. King Bradley (regnal number unmentioned) is a descendant of what seems to be a royal family that has been around since...forever. His Prussian-style military dictatorship has been waging war with nearby nations for seemingly trivial reasons and misunderstandings (a war with the in-show equivalent with Muslims because they got pissed when his secretary and mistress accidentally shot and killed a child) yet the body count is always counted in the millions, with new weapons of mass destruction being deployed and tested each time. He's basically George Bush II to some degree, as he has no spoken ideology and his true intentions are highly obscure until the end where it turns out he's using the lives of those his military kills to create the "Philosopher Stone" for his "mother", Dante, who lives eternally by parasitically living off the lives of others and demands an increasing number of souls in order to live her life of decadence, embodying the Seven Deadly Sins her Humonculi personify. The Fuhrer is the Humunculous "Pride", he sees himself as humanity's "guardian angel" with his "mother" seeing herself as the "shephered of the flock". 

God complexes aplenty between the somewhat oedipal relationship between Dante and her Seven humonculi (can't spell this word for the life of me), and given they represent collectively absolute evil they really give a good idea for the teens watching just how evil evil can be.

Naruto: Orochimaru; Like Dante he's a parasite feeding off the lives of others' as well, but in a different sense. Initially he's portrayed in a way somewhat similar to a stereotypical nazi scientist insofar as he experiments with human test subjects to perfect his experimental jutsu (ninja magic) while trying to attain eternal life. He evolves more as being someone with a chip on his shoulder against the Leaf Village (his hometown and where the main characters are all from, basically a ninja-camp-turned-city) for it's Hokage (Fire Shadow, think "King") banishing him as a youth when he attempted to learn and read about the "forbidden jutsu". He is later shown manipulating young people and orphans (he's an old man in "present time") by tempting them with things like revenge and power, or even bare necessities of life and guardianship, into doing his bidding. He's very much the manipulative sociopath that is a common trope in Japanese villains, which goes to show in my opinion the moral strength of the Japanese in having as a regular villain for children to see; a sociopathic manipulator and sophist.

 

All three of these villains are commonly known among anime watches, especially in Japan as it was watched by many kids. Of course I as an American watched anime like these growing up and they have shaped my perception of what's good and evil. I'll get to the protagonists in the next paragraph, but compared to what I see (in passing) from Western villains, Japanese villains are far more definitively evil and worthy of being demonized as something to hate and avoid, partly because "lesser versions" of them are rather common in dysfunctional families and communities. I mean, pretty much every single mom is Dante and bad politician is Orochimaru and Naraku. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

On the other side, the protagonist seems to have evolved into something pretty... undesirable. He (more often than earlier a she) is usually a person who has undefined ideals, very vague goals, a rebellious attitude, an incomplete character, influencable and weak will, emotional instability, terrible friends, zero charisma, average looks, uncontrollable sex-drive, submissive personality, but god almighty... extraordinary talents. Although the protagonist also thinks he is serving a great cause, he is always quite sure that he will have a part in it, and that the cause can be achieved pretty quickly, simply, and that happyend is in his favour anyway.

Ironically the protagonists of most made-for-teens anime has either a moderate sex drive or none at all.

Naruto: Naruto Uzumaki: He's a blond haired orphan with a chip on his shoulder, and epitomizes in every way the Japanese ideal of the underdog overcoming seemingly insurmountable odds with tenacity and smarts. He grew up poor and shunned for the fear of his fellow citizens of him, partly because he has the "Nine-Tailed-Fox demon" (think atom bomb) sealed inside him. However rather than becoming a sociopathic rebel (like his early enemy Gaara) or a cynical revenge-driven angsty boy (like his friend Sasuke), he's an upbeat and determined young ninja seeking to both bring peace and fix whatever problem he's tasked with (he's basically Jesus at times) and become the Fifth Hokage (again, think "King") through his merits and determination. He regularly fights tough adversaries but refuses to back down or remained defeated. When he realizes he's too weak to overcome an opponent, he trains like an animal to become strong enough to overcome him. When his brute strength isn't enough, he uses his battle smarts to solve the problem. When his enemy is a wavering boy, unsure of himself, he appeals to the enemy's humanity and attempts to (and often succeeds in) changing them and making them life-long comrades. Overall this kid is a human dynamo worthy of respect and a great role model for children wanting to improve themselves, although his tendency to reach out is balanced by the times it fails because (like in real life) some people are beyond saving. 

Inuyasha: Inuyasha: He's a rough and rude half-demon who had a similar childhood to Naruto but for different reasons (Papa is the Demon General and Mama is a human princess, you can imagine how that would alienate him from both humans and demons alike). He swore revenge against Naraku after being tricked by him into stealing the formerly-completed Shikon Jewel from the Priestess Kikyo (who was both Inuyasha's love interest and human-Naraku's lust interest and nurse in his final days as a mortal), who herself was tricked into sealing him into a tree for fifty years when Naraku masked himself as Inuyasha and attacked her, and Inuyasha by masking himself as Kikyo and attacking him. He starts off power-hungry and cynical, but becomes increasingly humane and benevolent as a "big brother" type of guy, partly thanks to Kagome (a human girl from the future--i.e., present) "taming" him (both literally and figuratively) and giving him a reason to trust people again. Inuyasha's a bit more complicated than Naruto as he starts off fairly evil, but he evolves into a far greater man who saves humans from demons and endeavors to solve the heart-wrenching machinations of Naraku's curses on his various victims.

Fullmetal Alchemist: Edward Elrich; Ed is a German-inspired kid with a Napoleon complex who starts off fairly immature, but is driven by the goal of giving his little brother his limbs back, which is a problem that resulted in him and his little brother Alphonse attempting to revive their mother with Alchemy, which backfired hugely in taking half of Ed's limbs and all of Al's body, the little brother being spared death only by being sealed into a suit of armor. Ed is a hot-tempered youth, but he has very strong moral convictions and is a genius at what he does (fighting, science, and alchemy) and struggles to find the philosopher stone in an effort to save his brother. Along the way he helps people and fights corrupt officials and warmongers alike, eventually serving (unknowingly) the biggest one of all; Fuhrer-King Bradley. Eventually he leaves the State Military after becoming disillusioned with the war with Ishbal (think the Bush invasion of Iraq in terms of human destruction and genetic poisoning) and eventually assists his mentor the Colonel and later General Mustang in his revolution to overthrow the dictatorship and meanwhile put an end to the hidden enemy behind the scenes. 

 

All these protagonists are either kids or approximately kids (Inuyasha is technically hundreds of years old, but fifty of those years were in slumber and demons age far more slowly than mortals. He's basically 20) with a strong sense of right and wrong, as well as determination enough to meet their goals. Overall I'd say they're fairly good and relatable role models for kids as there are no Mary Sues (like crazy Rei from the latest Star Wars) and the characters generally grow fundamentally over time.

 

9 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

If the modern protagonist was the ideal that formed the millenial generation, then it is no wonder some of them turned out such insufferable rebellious whiners, all of whom believe that everything is about them, and that they are special, and that they are always only targeted by expendable stormtroopers that cannot aim.
If their picture of the bad guy was drawn by such ideas, then it is no wonder that they consider the most competent people on the planet to be evil. Such being Trump, Putin, Duterte, and Farage.

 

This theory put a lot of things in place for me, as more often than not, I usually find myself rooting for the supposed bad guys. 

The bad guys in Western films tend to be more interesting, sadly, which is a way of showing how poorly written the good guys are (to some degree). I'd appreciate some examples to use as a case study. I provided three Japanese examples, I think three American/European examples are in order here as I haven't much knowledge about modern Western fiction (especially for kids) beyond a handful of shows, with Avatar: The Last Airbender being the only really good one that comes to mind (that I am also familiar with).

 

My whole point being basically how our culture is partly poisoned by the cinema kids are exposed to, and that the Japanese have far greater role models for kids than we do (it seems).

I don't know of any "conservative antagonists" in Western film, let alone modern Western film, so I'd appreciate some examples as case studies. In general I'd argue anime is better for children as anime (in the appropriate age range of course. Not all of it is meant for kids or adults) tends to be better written and have more depth and humanity to it, and is in general more inspiring and make better role models as a whole.

 

P.S. I think I may have gargled a bit in typing here and there, feel free to ask questions if I typed something awkwardly. I was somewhat in a rush... I apologize in advance. 

 

 

 

[ofd]

Secondary virtues like being punctual, finishing what you started and so on are not values in themselves unless you do what is right.

[M.2]

On ‎2017‎. ‎06‎. ‎18‎. at 8:23 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

An interesting theory, let's iron it out.

1. First off, in what modern movies were the main villains "conservative"? It could be argued Gru in Despicable Me is a cuckservative because he adopts children, then gets married without any implication of having his own children, but that's a stretch. I haven't watched many modern movies, especially modern movies for children, even back when I was a child since they mostly sucked compared to their Japanese rivals; anime.

2. Using three popular anime as a case study; Inuyasha; Fullmetal Alchemist (First Series); and Naruto (First Series--not going to count Shippuden since I haven't finished that super long thing and probably won't find the time for it until I have a miraculously long vacation to enjoy it when I'm, say, 80), we will attempt to "figure out" what modern Japanese culture sees to the good guy versus the bad guy in fiction meant for teenagers. 

3. I'd appreciate it if you or someone else could find modern American counterparts since the only modern American fiction have I have real knowledge of would The Regular Show, Steven Universe, and lastly (but certainly not least) Avatar: The Last Airbender.

4. Aill three of these villains are commonly known among anime watches, especially in Japan as it was watched by many kids. Of course I as an American watched anime like these growing up and they have shaped my perception of what's good and evil. I'll get to the protagonists in the next paragraph, but compared to what I see (in passing) from Western villains, Japanese villains are far more definitively evil and worthy of being demonized as something to hate and avoid, partly because "lesser versions" of them are rather common in dysfunctional families and communities. I mean, pretty much every single mom is Dante and bad politician is Orochimaru and Naraku. 

5. The bad guys in Western films tend to be more interesting, sadly, which is a way of showing how poorly written the good guys are (to some degree). I'd appreciate some examples to use as a case study. I provided three Japanese examples, I think three American/European examples are in order here as I haven't much knowledge about modern Western fiction (especially for kids) beyond a handful of shows, with Avatar: The Last Airbender being the only really good one that comes to mind (that I am also familiar with).

My whole point being basically how our culture is partly poisoned by the cinema kids are exposed to, and that the Japanese have far greater role models for kids than we do (it seems).

6. I don't know of any "conservative antagonists" in Western film, let alone modern Western film, so I'd appreciate some examples as case studies. In general I'd argue anime is better for children as anime (in the appropriate age range of course. Not all of it is meant for kids or adults) tends to be better written and have more depth and humanity to it, and is in general more inspiring and make better role models as a whole.

1. By "conservative", of course I mean "traditional", not necessarily american or british conservatiove. In other words, socially conservative. You may not be old enough, but there used to movies and shows up until about 2005, in which there were heroes and villains of the traditional sort. Shawshank Redemption, officially the best movie ever, and if we bring in kids shows, then Transformers, Voltron, even the earlier Power Rangers... 

2. Sadly, I have stopped watching anime since Yu-Gi-Oh for the very reason I that I based my thread on, so I am poorly equiped to discuss anime.
What I have discovered though, is that Japanese, Korean and Russian works still more or less go by the traditional hero and traditional villain. However, they have been going decadent for a while too.

3. I deliberately did not reference any western examples, because it would have seemed like I was guided by confirmation bias. I just wanted to see if this theory holds up in the minds of others as well.
One worthy example I should give is when I saw a footage of a BLM "protest", where some pretentious woman literally started quoting the Hunger Games. And it is also common knowledge that Harry Potter is a leftie favourite.

4. Yes, eastern villains still tend to be someone we cannot stand with, since they are truly evil and unappealing.

5. As for western villains, yes, that is exactly the problem. They actually attract more fans than the heroes do. Best case is probably Star Wars, in which everyone wants to be on the side of Darth Vader, and not the cliché-men. If you actually think about it, they are so terrible at selling us how evil the empire is, that their own rebel merchandise hardly sell off of shelves in comparison to empire merchandise.

6. We can actually witness the metamorphosis of the conservative villain through the James Bond series, in which the villain gets progressively more attractive, organised, refined, interesting, with stark contrast to the hero, who has been becoming a borderline rapist sociopathic murderer throughout the franchise.

A tangent on antiheroes here... The film industry has been noticing how disinterested the public has become in their heroes, so lately they have been creating antiheroes, or stories in which there is no hero at all (Game of Thrones as far as I can tell). The modern antihero is basically the same as the modern hero, except that he has been endowed by one or two conservative traits, like a good work ethic, emotional stability, or loyalty. 

11 hours ago, ofd said:

Secondary virtues like being punctual, finishing what you started and so on are not values in themselves unless you do what is right.

I do not disagree. They are however valuable character traits by conservative standards.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

8 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

1. By "conservative", of course I mean "traditional", not necessarily american or british conservatiove. In other words, socially conservative. You may not be old enough, but there used to movies and shows up until about 2005, in which there were heroes and villains of the traditional sort. Shawshank Redemption, officially the best movie ever, and if we bring in kids shows, then Transformers, Voltron, even the earlier Power Rangers... 

I did watch Shawshank Redemption, though I wouldn't say there are any "antagonists" unless you count the corrupt prison warden who was both an ally (insofar he helped out the protagonist i exchange for "bookkeeping") and an enemy (because he planned on keeping the protagonist his eternal laundering slave--or something like that, I can't remember too well). 

Socially conservative, as in K-selected right? Again I can't say I know of many modern film works that portray K-selected badguys. Perhaps you can give some examples, otherwise this whole idea that the modern bad guy is a conservative is totally baseless. It may be true, but without evidence it's just a claim.

 

8 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

2. Sadly, I have stopped watching anime since Yu-Gi-Oh for the very reason I that I based my thread on, so I am poorly equiped to discuss anime.
What I have discovered though, is that Japanese, Korean and Russian works still more or less go by the traditional hero and traditional villain. However, they have been going decadent for a while too.

Like I said, not all anime is for kids. However I can't talk about Korean or Russian film as I don't know much about them, save of course for the sex filled movies that exist in the restricted Korean and Japanese film that I come across the occasional late night.

8 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

3. I deliberately did not reference any western examples, because it would have seemed like I was guided by confirmation bias. I just wanted to see if this theory holds up in the minds of others as well.
One worthy example I should give is when I saw a footage of a BLM "protest", where some pretentious woman literally started quoting the Hunger Games. And it is also common knowledge that Harry Potter is a leftie favourite.

Given we live in Western Civilization (well you're a bit different but I assume here is where you're talking about), Western film is what matters most in talking about the "modern antagonist". Few people watch film from all over the world regularly and there is no internationally common zeitgeist for movies; tastes and depth differ by region. Though I ought to comment: you didn't mention any examples. 

I don't understand the point of mentioning a terrorist citing the Hunger Games, or Harry Potter. The first's antagonist was basically Stalin, though he had children in the books they weren't ever portrayed and nothing personal to him is mentioned, and Harry Potter's antagonist is/was an angsty teenager from a screwed up  background that somehow becomes an evil monster Nazi thing. 

I like Harry Potter as a book series and somewhat as a show series (even though Rowling is stark raving mad), but its antagonists weren't very interesting beyond as fear factor. Frankly the mystery of not knowing who Voldemort is was much more interesting than discovering he's basically Satan or something and then somehow Nazis got involved. Mind you I vaguely remember the ending or middle parts of the books/movies, so take all my criticism of the antagonist with a bag of salt.  

 

8 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

4. Yes, eastern villains still tend to be someone we cannot stand with, since they are truly evil and unappealing.

Which is why they're good, because they're so evil and repulsive. 

8 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

5. As for western villains, yes, that is exactly the problem. They actually attract more fans than the heroes do. Best case is probably Star Wars, in which everyone wants to be on the side of Darth Vader, and not the cliché-men. If you actually think about it, they are so terrible at selling us how evil the empire is, that their own rebel merchandise hardly sell off of shelves in comparison to empire merchandise.

The "evil empire" is just a side show for the badass "Dark Daddy" and the psycho here is the neutral mask of the watcher putting himself into the wonky world of Star Wars. I can't say I like it, and while I used to somewhat like it as it broke my Sci-Fi virginity, it pales in comparison to the epic Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which is a grand case study for Autocracy versus Republicanism with lots of moral and human weight behind it. If you can find it, I strongly recommend a binge of it. 

8 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

6. We can actually witness the metamorphosis of the conservative villain through the James Bond series, in which the villain gets progressively more attractive, organised, refined, interesting, with stark contrast to the hero, who has been becoming a borderline rapist sociopathic murderer throughout the franchise.

I haven't seen much Bond in a while, but I wouldn't call him a rapist (even borderline) since the slut he bangs always enjoys and accepts it. Sociopath and all that is plenty deserved, since he's pretty much a boring stereotype of the emotionless ageless badass at this point with no redeeming characteristics besides a leitmotif and cinematic gadgetry. 

All in all I have to wonder where this claim comes from; I don't know of any main bad guys in Western film or TV with conservative values. I specify Western because we're talking about Modern Western Antagonists. 

However I emphasize the greatness of Far Eastern (specifically Japanese) film in having depth and creativity and a sense of culture that is sorely lacking in Western film. 

 

 

 

 

[DaVinci]

I would be wary of becoming like what you described. Antagonists are usually focused to a fault, which leads to their defeat, where as protagonists are only unfocused for a time. Their procrastination pays off in the long run because they arrive at more thoughtful conclusions which allow them to defeat the villain.