Why do people find nothing to talk about?

[Mole]

In relationships (Friends, special other, etc) specifically. Is there some defence mechanism?

[RichardY]

"Physiologists should think before putting down the instinct of self-preservation as the cardinal instinct of an organic being. A living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength—life itself is will to power—: self-preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results.— In short, here as everywhere else, let us beware of superfluous teleological principles!—one of which is the instinct of self-preservation (we owe it to Spinoza's inconsistency—). Thus method, which must be essentially economy of principles, demands it." Beyond Good and Evil.

By default the organisms ability to reproduce, what warps a particular persons personality in society is anyone's guess. But as personality like Economics is a closed system, to push one aspect is to expand another (Equilibrium).

[cherapple]

Fear.

Talking about meaningful topics in childhood brought disapproval, punishment, rejection. So they became a false self with "nothing" to talk about. 

What are your experiences when you try to talk to people who have nothing to talk about? Or do you ask because you become one of them? 

(I used to.)

[Mole]

2 hours ago, cherapple said:

Fear.

Talking about meaningful topics in childhood brought disapproval, punishment, rejection. So they became a false self with "nothing" to talk about. 

What are your experiences when you try to talk to people who have nothing to talk about? Or do you ask because you become one of them? 

(I used to.)

Thanks for your response. I can agree that sometimes it is fear of disapproval but not in the way you think it would be! A subtle but important distinction can be made between "fear of disapproval because what you are thinking about saying is true but you have a false self that doesn't like disapproval" OR "fear of disapproval because you don't know what you are thinking about is true or false and you don't want to be naive and say something false that will end up hurting your relationships". I guess the second one is fear of being dishonest more than fear of disapproval, but if people start disapproving you, it's likely that you said something stupid.

Now for me, I'd say that I haven't really experienced fear of disapproval in the conventional sense. I think we have to be very careful here because that kind of fear between the conventional sense and unconventional sense is the same kind of emotion. After all, isn't is true that you will start rationalising why something you're going to say is stupid if you have a false self? So they overlap but sometimes it's really true that you should be careful about what you say.

But I would say this overlapping thing doesn't really apply to me because I've just gone ahead and said screw it and said stupid things. It took courage but guess what. I find out that what I said was stupid and I get nothing out of it. No relief, no revelations, nothing.

In my humble experience, I think not being able to say much is more to do with anhedonia (unable to feel pleasure in things people usually find pleasure in) and the brain's reward system. If I'm not enjoying someone, I feel like no matter what I say, whether it's true or false, personal or not, is wrong. Like it's something I shouldn't have said because it's not meaningful and I got no insight from it and I got no kick or emotion out of it. My theory is that due to false beliefs people create a structure of values and the brain adapts to this structure by rewarding you (with dopamine) when you fulfil them, and even if your beliefs and 'values' in a conceptual sense change, your kind of habitual values embedded in the brain are still the same and you don't feel rewarded for getting what you think should be truly noble and virtuous things. So probably due to a number of things from my childhood or due to the fact that I have been diagnosed with social communication disorder (which means I could be slightly autistic) I've learned to not find joy in relationships. I know what the right thing is to say because I get ideas but I don't feel good about expressing them and I don't understand if they want to hear it. I'm missing that emotional feedback.

Now, such an explanation may sound very unphilosophical or deterministic. Like we are robots that can be programmed into finding happiness in certain things just like some kind of drug. But I think it's perfectly compatible with free will and virtue and all those things. As Ayn Rand said, paraphrasing here, valuing unsustainable (anti-UPB, anti-empirical) things will lead to incompatibilities in your value hierarchy which means, in the long run, you won't find joy since you will have conflicting interests. For example, I shouldn't learn to love eating cake every day because I also want to be healthy. If I don't stay healthy I'm going to die and no organism wants to die. I hear Stefan say that the 'true self' knows everything but the 'false self' blocks that information but I just don't find this the case in my experience as I have explained. For me, mental health problems fall into the category of holding true beliefs but have some self-defense mechanism or a lack of courage (which is best dealt with in psychodynamic therapy) or holding false beliefs that lead to unjustified and unsustainable emotions (which is best dealt with in CBT. Client-based therapy. And evidence suggests that CBT is very helpful for the short term, which should be expected if you have a bunch of false beliefs to get out of the way to get to the true insecurities). I think underlying problems leads us to start making these false beliefs like starting to love cake and that leads to extra unnecessary problems such as gaining weight for example, and we should first get rid of the false belief of loving cake, and then we can deal with self-defense mechanisms like my parents didn't feed me as a child so now I overeat or some psychoanalytical thing like that. So I would say that for me not being able to speak is just like loving cake and getting fat. I got to start appreciating people more perhaps and rewire my brain, and then I can deal with being lonely as a child which is something else completely and not really to do with not being able to speak to people (i.e. that the self-defense mechanism triggered the development of the belief, but doesn't actually manifest in the belief itself).

If I knew exactly how all this worked I wouldn't have asked the question but hopefully, something I said is meaningful in your perspective.

[DaVinci]

At what point in the relationship? At some point you're going to basically know what you're SO would think about a subject. 

[Mole]

7 hours ago, DaVinci said:

At what point in the relationship? At some point you're going to basically know what you're SO would think about a subject. 

That's true. I get that and I think that has happened to some degree because I find myself talking about things to other people I've already talked about to my SO. But I think the greater problem is that this tends to happen with everyone more or less. It also depends on the time and context. It's sort of hard to predict. Some days I'll have a lot to say with people and other days barely anything at all. I'm really having difficulty figuring out why that is. If I were to bet on it, I would say it's my mood. Getting stuck in some mindset that's hard to see out of. I should probably edit the OP because by relationships I mean in the greater sense of the term. Friends, SO, etc.

[DaVinci]

17 hours ago, Mole said:

That's true. I get that and I think that has happened to some degree because I find myself talking about things to other people I've already talked about to my SO. But I think the greater problem is that this tends to happen with everyone more or less. It also depends on the time and context. It's sort of hard to predict. Some days I'll have a lot to say with people and other days barely anything at all. I'm really having difficulty figuring out why that is. If I were to bet on it, I would say it's my mood. Getting stuck in some mindset that's hard to see out of. I should probably edit the OP because by relationships I mean in the greater sense of the term. Friends, SO, etc.

What is the difference between days when you have a lot to say and days where you have barely anything to say? You mentioned your mood, but are we talking about mood as in you just woke up and are sleepy and so don't feel like jumping into a lengthy discussion? Or is it a mood you got into because you were around other people and they did or said things where you found yourself feeling angry or depressed after hearing what they said? 

[cherapple]

On 6/24/2017 at 1:43 PM, Mole said:

"fear of disapproval because you don't know what you are thinking about is true or false and you don't want to be naive and say something false that will end up hurting your relationships". I guess the second one is fear of being dishonest more than fear of disapproval, but if people start disapproving you, it's likely that you said something stupid

Kind people will not disapprove of you for saying something "stupid" if you are honest in your self-expression. They will either gently correct you, or express curiosity about where you're coming from. 

[Mole]

On 6/26/2017 at 7:49 AM, DaVinci said:

What is the difference between days when you have a lot to say and days where you have barely anything to say? You mentioned your mood, but are we talking about mood as in you just woke up and are sleepy and so don't feel like jumping into a lengthy discussion? Or is it a mood you got into because you were around other people and they did or said things where you found yourself feeling angry or depressed after hearing what they said? 

 

I am not really sure if it is mood, but if it is, it's probably subconscious. In fact, whatever this thing is it must be subconscious because I can't tangibly point to a cause. I just guess that it's mood because I do have mood swings from stress, to depression to joy (not bipolar) and I know they are responsible for a lot of other things such as motivation and energy. So I wouldn't be surprised it they sort of taint the atmosphere. Usually, however, I will become depressed and stressed after I see them because of a disappointing encounter rather than the other way around. These mood swings come and go quite suddenly and unexpectantly. I have some degree of control. I realised it helps if I just go outside a bit. Perhaps getting a job would get rid of these petty mood swings. Maybe that's all I need. Some more guidance.

[Mole]

20 hours ago, cherapple said:

Kind people will not disapprove of you for saying something "stupid" if you are honest in your self-expression. They will either gently correct you, or express curiosity about where you're coming from. 

Is it not true that we should be careful about what we say?

[DaVinci]

14 hours ago, Mole said:

I am not really sure if it is mood, but if it is, it's probably subconscious. In fact, whatever this thing is it must be subconscious because I can't tangibly point to a cause. I just guess that it's mood because I do have mood swings from stress, to depression to joy (not bipolar) and I know they are responsible for a lot of other things such as motivation and energy. So I wouldn't be surprised it they sort of taint the atmosphere. Usually, however, I will become depressed and stressed after I see them because of a disappointing encounter rather than the other way around. These mood swings come and go quite suddenly and unexpectantly. I have some degree of control. I realised it helps if I just go outside a bit. Perhaps getting a job would get rid of these petty mood swings. Maybe that's all I need. Some more guidance.

Why don't you have a job? Before you answer that I want to say I'm not going to condemn you for not having one. There are people, even here, who would shame you for not having a job. A "job" confuses the issue though. So while I wonder why you aren't making money, I'm also wondering why you aren't productive in general? If you don't have a job you have a lot of free time. So what are you doing with yourself? Don't you have any hobbies? Passions? Goals? 

Why do you think you need more guidance? What kind of guidance are we talking about? 

[Mole]

4 hours ago, DaVinci said:

Why don't you have a job? Before you answer that I want to say I'm not going to condemn you for not having one. There are people, even here, who would shame you for not having a job. A "job" confuses the issue though. So while I wonder why you aren't making money, I'm also wondering why you aren't productive in general? If you don't have a job you have a lot of free time. So what are you doing with yourself? Don't you have any hobbies? Passions? Goals? 

Why do you think you need more guidance? What kind of guidance are we talking about? 

I'm a full-time student. I don't find much value in the idea of earning more money so I prefer to read and listen to podcasts and 'sort myself out' and spending time with my girlfriend unless of course, I find out that those things require me getting a job. I have worked a little bit for family friends and some other things but never had a proper job. Although, I'll probably be getting a job since I have to start paying for my counselling sessions at the moment. I'm also transferring universities at the moment and I want to get familiar with the course (timetables, workload, travel, etc).

I mean guidance as meaning knowing what decisions are good and bad for you. I feel like I have too many options available. I don't have a dad so I kind of have this romantic idea that people with dads have an easier life as they have good habits ingrained into them from a young age. And if you asked those people when they're older, they may not even consciously understand the importance of that. I could be wrong but that's just a feeling I get. Some examples are, am I studying the right course? What are my passions? How is my mood affected by everyday life? Which friends should I keep? This stuff doesn't seem to come intuitively to me and I actually have quite a low self-esteem because of it. How do those relate together? I'm not sure. I mean, self-esteem should depend upon free will and if there are too many options and it's truly too hard to choose between them, that is not free will but I still feel bad about it anyway.

I think that guidance would create a sense of meaning and I think as soon as I get a sense of meaning, maybe the joy from that could 'override' my mood swings to make them seem petty. Sort of like how playing games could override your hunger.

[DaVinci]

13 hours ago, Mole said:

I'm a full-time student. I don't find much value in the idea of earning more money so I prefer to read and listen to podcasts and 'sort myself out' and spending time with my girlfriend unless of course, I find out that those things require me getting a job. I have worked a little bit for family friends and some other things but never had a proper job. Although, I'll probably be getting a job since I have to start paying for my counselling sessions at the moment. I'm also transferring universities at the moment and I want to get familiar with the course (timetables, workload, travel, etc).

I mean guidance as meaning knowing what decisions are good and bad for you. I feel like I have too many options available. I don't have a dad so I kind of have this romantic idea that people with dads have an easier life as they have good habits ingrained into them from a young age. And if you asked those people when they're older, they may not even consciously understand the importance of that. I could be wrong but that's just a feeling I get. Some examples are, am I studying the right course? What are my passions? How is my mood affected by everyday life? Which friends should I keep? This stuff doesn't seem to come intuitively to me and I actually have quite a low self-esteem because of it. How do those relate together? I'm not sure. I mean, self-esteem should depend upon free will and if there are too many options and it's truly too hard to choose between them, that is not free will but I still feel bad about it anyway.

I think that guidance would create a sense of meaning and I think as soon as I get a sense of meaning, maybe the joy from that could 'override' my mood swings to make them seem petty. Sort of like how playing games could override your hunger.

I'm sorry to hear you don't have a father. Is this something recent? Or has this been since you were little? 

In regards to your passions, you must be able to narrow it down. You know a bunch of things you would never do, right? So the problem is probably more like you can't decide between the things you do like? If that's the case then imagine you can only do one thing, one hobby, for the rest of your life. Even if you arrive at two or three answers, that's fine for now. Give yourself time to explore those things but use that time to narrow it down further. If you don't find that one thing you really want to do you could end up wasting your life on something you don't really care about. 

The good thing is, even if you get really good at one thing that doesn't mean you can't have other interests. You can be a master carpenter and also still go fishing on the weekends, or whatever. 

Lot's of people have this same problem. Too many options. It probably doesn't have much to do with not having a dad. Even if you had a dad, and he loved you, he wouldn't force you into anything you didn't want to do. He would probably encourage you to do what interested you the most. 

[Mole]

20 hours ago, DaVinci said:

I'm sorry to hear you don't have a father. Is this something recent? Or has this been since you were little? 

In regards to your passions, you must be able to narrow it down. You know a bunch of things you would never do, right? So the problem is probably more like you can't decide between the things you do like? If that's the case then imagine you can only do one thing, one hobby, for the rest of your life. Even if you arrive at two or three answers, that's fine for now. Give yourself time to explore those things but use that time to narrow it down further. If you don't find that one thing you really want to do you could end up wasting your life on something you don't really care about. 

The good thing is, even if you get really good at one thing that doesn't mean you can't have other interests. You can be a master carpenter and also still go fishing on the weekends, or whatever. 

Lot's of people have this same problem. Too many options. It probably doesn't have much to do with not having a dad. Even if you had a dad, and he loved you, he wouldn't force you into anything you didn't want to do. He would probably encourage you to do what interested you the most. 

 

Thanks for your response.

Since I was little.

I should mention also that one point in my girlfriend's life she also was quieter a few years ago than she is now because her mood was whack at that time. So that supports my theory a bit.

You're right. I think I'll become a research psychologist. I think that's one of my passions. Still, I feel overwhelmed by choice. Should I read this book or that book. Which counsellor should I go to. What makes me happy. Feel like it's almost impossible to systemise it. I sort let my curiosity lead me.

[DaVinci]

19 hours ago, Mole said:

Thanks for your response.

Since I was little.

I should mention also that one point in my girlfriend's life she also was quieter a few years ago than she is now because her mood was whack at that time. So that supports my theory a bit.

You're right. I think I'll become a research psychologist. I think that's one of my passions. Still, I feel overwhelmed by choice. Should I read this book or that book. Which counsellor should I go to. What makes me happy. Feel like it's almost impossible to systemise it. I sort let my curiosity lead me.

Just give yourself time to breathe. Curiosity + Time is the way I look at it. If you have 50 books you want to read, okay. Do the same thing I described above. Which ones are the ones you really want to read? Narrow it down. Get it down to five books, then look at those five books and decide which one or two are at the top. Start reading your number one book. Read a chapter a night. Take notes. When you are done reexamine your book list. Is the number two book now the number one book or did you change your mind? Either way let some other book come up to number one and start reading that. 

Anytime you are having trouble with a problem give yourself a little time away from all other distractions. Go the the park. Go sit in a restaurant by yourself. Eat. Relax. Bring a notebook to jot down some thoughts. Do what works for you to allow yourself the time to breathe. 

[Jot]

On 6/24/2017 at 5:23 PM, cherapple said:

Fear.

Talking about meaningful topics in childhood brought disapproval, punishment, rejection. So they became a false self with "nothing" to talk about. 

What are your experiences when you try to talk to people who have nothing to talk about? Or do you ask because you become one of them? 

(I used to.)

This is a great theory I believe. Although my first thought when I attempted to come up with an answer to this thread's question was that the fear stems from the fact that bringing up meaningful topics automatically puts you into a position of vulnerability in front of the other person so it exposes you to the threat of being affected by a negative judgement by the other person. 

[Mole]

7 hours ago, Ferssitar said:

This is a great theory I believe. Although my first thought when I attempted to come up with an answer to this thread's question was that the fear stems from the fact that bringing up meaningful topics automatically puts you into a position of vulnerability in front of the other person so it exposes you to the threat of being affected by a negative judgement by the other person. 

Surely there are other reasons. For example, imagine how you would feel rockin' up to a rural bar filled with old men from Japan.

[mgggb]

On 6/24/2017 at 4:14 AM, Mole said:

In relationships (Friends, special other, etc) specifically. Is there some defence mechanism?

For me I stop having things to talk about when I can predict what they're going to say. Most people have simple parameters. It's kind of frustrating, actually.