Donnadogsoth Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 The thing to remember is perspective. From my perspective, everything I see is part of my mind, including my body. From your perspective, everything you see is part of your mind, including my body. The human body is the phenomenological locus of the human mind My brain in particular is the material expression of, or metaphor for, the activity of my mind. What is happening if we change the brain? The change in the brain represents the activity of God on the mind. That is, any willed action whatsoever involves an attempt at changing the material world, possibly including the brain of another person. That intention is submitted to God who then decides whether to grant it in full, in part, or not at all. If granted in full or part, the material world changes. In the case of the brain, the brain changes, and the change manifests within the mind of the person whose brain has been so changed. In this process there is no pairwise causation. My action did not cause your brain to change. My action was an intention submitted to God in “potentia space” prior to Creation, who in turn decided whether to create me in such a way as to be as if changed by my action. Then God created us both in this preëstablished harmony. Intention by monad A in potentia space. Decision by God to create monad B as if monad B were changed by intention A. Creation of monads A and B by God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegfried von Walheim Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 The first thing that comes to my mind is how awfully deterministic this idea that God dictates our actions, and how suggestive that is of the morality of God, and therefore there is a substantial burden of proof on your part to establish that God essentially is the dictator of human action, and therefore human beings are mere puppet of God's mental whims. Besides the truth value, I find this idea to be both extreme dangerous and toxic. If I believed everyone's actions were the dictate of God, then I would never assign responsibility to others nor myself, for we are all objects of God's imagination, and therefore the only bad guy is God for making human existence so needlessly complicated rather than an eternal orgy of happiness. If I believed this, I must not take living very seriously, for what am I but a fish in a tank? A puppet on a stage? Why should I bother to affect reality if my actions and the actions of others are predetermined? I may as well just mindlessly "live" and "let live". I don't know if this is your intention, but from what I understand of this theory, human action is entirely driven by the whims of an outsider and therefore determinism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnadogsoth Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 18 minutes ago, Siegfried von Walheim said: The first thing that comes to my mind is how awfully deterministic this idea that God dictates our actions, and how suggestive that is of the morality of God, and therefore there is a substantial burden of proof on your part to establish that God essentially is the dictator of human action, and therefore human beings are mere puppet of God's mental whims. Besides the truth value, I find this idea to be both extreme dangerous and toxic. If I believed everyone's actions were the dictate of God, then I would never assign responsibility to others nor myself, for we are all objects of God's imagination, and therefore the only bad guy is God for making human existence so needlessly complicated rather than an eternal orgy of happiness. If I believed this, I must not take living very seriously, for what am I but a fish in a tank? A puppet on a stage? Why should I bother to affect reality if my actions and the actions of others are predetermined? I may as well just mindlessly "live" and "let live". I don't know if this is your intention, but from what I understand of this theory, human action is entirely driven by the whims of an outsider and therefore determinism. We are puppets of ourselves, for it is our free choices that God uses to craft the seamless whole of the world. All that is lacking is our ability to create action, rather we can will action which God, being good and unable to deceive, then correlates to our willing. Thus if I steal your shoes, the actual action of theft is God's, who is honouring my will-to-steal. Pairwise interaction happens as if through direct causation, but in fact all pairwise interaction occurs in terms of each particle's relationship to the universe as a whole as determined by God. You are not a puppet, but a star, who is the fate of yourself. You decided to do what you are doing in æternity and are living out the consequences of your own decisions in the temporal world. You are not helpless, a leaf in the wind, so long as you situate yourself in terms of æternity and not fall into the trap of fatalism. God is not to blame. God is merely giving you the consequences of what you have willed, which is all you can, ultimately, do. Thus, your real existence is not in the temporal world, but in the aeternal, as a willing soul, akin not to a fish but to an angel. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegfried von Walheim Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 4 minutes ago, Donnadogsoth said: We are puppets of ourselves, for it is our free choices that God uses to craft the seamless whole of the world. All that is lacking is our ability to create action, rather we can will action which God, being good and unable to deceive, then correlates to our willing. You are suggesting humans are dominoes. The theory may be A submits request to God for B to happen, but something (Z) must have pushed A into doing that, and then logically there must be a Y to request for Z to do that, etc. 4 minutes ago, Donnadogsoth said: Thus if I steal your shoes, the actual action of theft is God's, who is honouring my will-to-steal. If you have stolen my shoes, the fault lies with you. 4 minutes ago, Donnadogsoth said: Pairwise interaction happens as if through direct causation, but in fact all pairwise interaction occurs in terms of each particle's relationship to the universe as a whole as determined by God. You are not a puppet, but a star, who is the fate of yourself. You decided to do what you are doing in aeternity and are living out the consequences of your own decisions in the temporal world. You are not helpless, a leaf in the wind, so long as you situate yourself in terms of aeternity and not fall into the trap of fatalism. God is not to blame. In this theory God is the dictator of actions, therefore all cause and effect is his fault because only he can make anything happen. We do not blame domino 26 for knocking down domino 27, nor the finger that knocked down domino 1, but rather the ghost in the machine that willed the action. In your theory, God is the ghost in the machine and everything else are the dominoes. 4 minutes ago, Donnadogsoth said: God is merely giving you the consequences of what you have willed, which is all you can, ultimately, do. Thus, your real existence is not in the temporal world, but in the aeternal, as a willing soul, akin not to a fish but to an angel. . . This is all merely pretty language meant to state that all of mankind is a series of whims on the part of God, who himself holds no responsibility for his whims, because somehow his whims have lives of their own, while also not having lives of their own because there is no free will due to God dictating everything, and yet there somehow is.... This is logically a circle without end. The theory that God alone has free will at least isn't a fallacy of logic. However if under this theory even God is without agency because he's merely reacting to his own whims, then no one has agency and therefore chaos. I can't even begin to describe the level of offense this theory has built into either, for this suggests that the achievements of all good people are not their own, for only God dictates them, and all the crimes of bad people are not of their own choice, for only God allows them. Then all responsibility is striped from mortal and immortal alike, in a deterministic circular logic fallacy. My question is where did you get this idea from? Why does it matter to you? And do you have any proof that the world is a deterministic circular logic fallacy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnadogsoth Posted June 26, 2017 Author Share Posted June 26, 2017 Quote You are suggesting humans are dominoes. The theory may be A submits request to God for B to happen, but something (Z) must have pushed A into doing that, and then logically there must be a Y to request for Z to do that, etc. No, I am not. People are not dominoes. Free will is neither determined nor chaotic. It is a third option. Quote If you have stolen my shoes, the fault lies with you. Naturally. But in what I would presume are your terms, the forces of nature are what allowed me to steal them. Quote In this theory God is the dictator of actions, therefore all cause and effect is his fault because only he can make anything happen. We do not blame domino 26 for knocking down domino 27, nor the finger that knocked down domino 1, but rather the ghost in the machine that willed the action. In your theory, God is the ghost in the machine and everything else are the dominoes. Incorrect. God is the one that makes our wishes real. Quote This is all merely pretty language meant to state that all of mankind is a series of whims on the part of God, who himself holds no responsibility for his whims, because somehow his whims have lives of their own, while also not having lives of their own because there is no free will due to God dictating everything, and yet there somehow is.... This is logically a circle without end. The theory that God alone has free will at least isn't a fallacy of logic. However if under this theory even God is without agency because he's merely reacting to his own whims, then no one has agency and therefore chaos. You're really reaching by saying this theory suggests God is without agency. No, God has free will as do we. Quote I can't even begin to describe the level of offense this theory has built into either, for this suggests that the achievements of all good people are not their own Wrong, only the mode of actualisation is different. Quote for only God dictates them, and all the crimes of bad people are not of their own choice, for only God allows them. Wrong, all choices are the responsibility of the individual person. God merely turns those wishes into physical consequences. Quote Then all responsibility is striped from mortal and immortal alike, in a deterministic circular logic fallacy. No. Quote My question is where did you get this idea from? Why does it matter to you? Leibniz et al and my own cogitations. Quote And do you have any proof that the world is a deterministic circular logic fallacy? No, because the world is not a “deterministic circular logic fallacy,” as I have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Crowe Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 Quote The thing to remember is perspective. From my perspective, everything I see is part of my mind, including my body. From your perspective, everything you see is part of your mind, including my body. The human body is the phenomenological locus of the human mind My brain in particular is the material expression of, or metaphor for, the activity of my mind. The term for this condition is called solipsism. Certain groups of people naturally exhibit this characteristic. The practitioner projects their needs out with the expectation that the external part will do the work for the internal part. In truth the things you see are not a part of your mind but rather external phenomenon with multiple levels of boundaries in between you and the final object. God is an idea and not an object in reality. So, it can have an effect on your mind or whoever else is convinced of the projection. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnadogsoth Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 12 hours ago, Tony Crowe said: The term for this condition is called solipsism. Certain groups of people naturally exhibit this characteristic. The practitioner projects their needs out with the expectation that the external part will do the work for the internal part. In truth the things you see are not a part of your mind but rather external phenomenon with multiple levels of boundaries in between you and the final object. God is an idea and not an object in reality. So, it can have an effect on your mind or whoever else is convinced of the projection. Does that make sense? I'm not taking about soliipsism, I'm talking about how a person's sensorium is a product of their mind. Other people are intuited as lurking somehow "behind" the loci of their manifestation in my sensorium. I speak to a person face to face and intuit there is a person invisibly associated with said face. So the same with any sense impression associated with that which is not part of oneself. God here is the origin of the scheme, also accessible to intuition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Crowe Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 14 hours ago, Donnadogsoth said: sensorium is a product of their mind This is ambiguous or tautological. sensorium = sensory apparatus or faculties considered as a whole product of the mind = ? sum of the mind whole of the whole? --- The other part is less ambiguous but if taken literally I can understand it. --- I don't think God is what you say it is. God is written about in in texts associated with the Hebrews and Christians. I haven't read anywhere that: (quotes from the OP) + there was 'activity of God on the mind' + intention is submitted to God who then decides whether to grant it in full + granted in full or part, the material world changes + My action was an intention submitted to God + Decision by God to create monad B as if monad B were changed by intention A. + Creation of monads A and B by God God & The Lord are written about and you can read about the list of forms, actions, emotions, and sentiments that God has. https://god.net/god/bible-topics/god-is/god-is-bible-verses-that-describe-who-god-is/ As far as I understand it the will of people and the will of God are independent. If that is so then God would not be granting things associated with our intent. Based on this argument is there another word other than God or do you maintain that the Hebrew God does what you describe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnadogsoth Posted July 3, 2017 Author Share Posted July 3, 2017 20 hours ago, Tony Crowe said: This is ambiguous or tautological. sensorium = sensory apparatus or faculties considered as a whole product of the mind = ? sum of the mind whole of the whole? --- The other part is less ambiguous but if taken literally I can understand it. --- I don't think God is what you say it is. God is written about in in texts associated with the Hebrews and Christians. I haven't read anywhere that: (quotes from the OP) + there was 'activity of God on the mind' + intention is submitted to God who then decides whether to grant it in full + granted in full or part, the material world changes + My action was an intention submitted to God + Decision by God to create monad B as if monad B were changed by intention A. + Creation of monads A and B by God God & The Lord are written about and you can read about the list of forms, actions, emotions, and sentiments that God has. https://god.net/god/bible-topics/god-is/god-is-bible-verses-that-describe-who-god-is/ As far as I understand it the will of people and the will of God are independent. If that is so then God would not be granting things associated with our intent. Based on this argument is there another word other than God or do you maintain that the Hebrew God does what you describe? The sensorium is part of the mind, just as the emotions, conceptions, and will are parts of the mind. Scripture doesn't go into an exhaustive metaphysical analysis of God. That falls to the philosophers. So, yes, I refer to the God of the Christians, albeit one explained more thoroughly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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