Unable to feel love?

[Hawkland]

I have really been wondering lately if I am simply incapable of loving someone. 

I have been with my GF for about a year, and I am strongly considering moving to the city she lives. For me, that would mean giving up a lot where I live at the moment, but I would probably try to set up a branch of the start-up business I am involved in, so it may become a brilliant career opportunity that I might not have started had I stayed where I am. 

There is a problem, though. I am not sure I love her.

However, this was also the case with my first girlfriend, and I always kind of thought of it as normal. It is even the case with my close family members. I don't really feel anything that strongly, except an appreciation, of course. But it is far from overwhelming. I am struggling to find out whether I should just accept this, get over with it and make love arise out of making an effort to improve myself and commit in my relationship.

I had a very good childhood with a stable family. I was even possibly a little spoiled with love, in the sense that I might have learned taking it for granted. Now my father was perhaps not the best at showing affection to my mother or to me. He absolutely loved, but he would just be a little bit awkward about showing it. And so am I when I am with my GF, plus I am not good at being thoughtful and caring and all of those things. It's especially when I am not with her - my mind and soul just wanders off onto other things, and I never really feel a strong need to talk, even though we talk on the phone most days of the week. Nor does it easily strike me to do something for her, surprise her etc. 

When we meet after having been apart for a long time, I also don't feel anything particularly strong when I see her. It's like my happiness level is stable around 7 and then when I see her, it's like ... still pleasant. I often do have an awesome time with her, but since I am pretty much always pretty happy and satisfied about things, going to an 8 or a 9 isn't that overwhelming for me. She tells me that for her it's horrible when we're apart, and that she thinks about me all the time. I feel bad for not reciprocating the emotion, but I really don't know how to take responsibility for that because I can't will an emotion into being.

Pretty much everything about her is awesome. It's like I love her to death - but logically. I am saying to myself: I should love this woman to death. But still, I really don't feel much.

Now, take Stefan's definition of love: The involuntary response to virtue if you're virtuous.  What does this response look like exactly? Is it a feeling/emotion? Is it something you do? Now what if the woman in question is clearly virtuous but most of the time doesn't invoke any strong involuntary response in me, does that mean I am not virtuous? I really have no idea what to make of my seeming incapability of experiencing this.

I am thinking I could either stay with this girl and commit to becoming a more thoughtful person and hope that love will come out of us living at the same place, building something even stronger together. The other alternative is, I don't want to be someone who occupies her if I am having all of these doubts. I should therefore set her free, and myself free. But ... then what? If I don't have the capacity to feel love, I will have to rise to the same challenge at some point anyways and make a commitment to someone. So, if not now, when? 

Committing to her will give me the biggest challenge of my entire life, but it is honestly a challenge I cannot be sure I will succeed at because I don't know if I will ever be able to give her in return what she gives me. I am not sure if she deserves that. Breaking up now, however, seems easier in many respects. But I am not sure I should choose whatever is easier if all that means is that I will have to face a similar dilemma in a couple of years.


Please let me know what you think of this. We have decided to give this decision until the end of August. I am in a hurry. I am looking for love within myself. But I don't know how to look for it and what standard to set within myself.

[Spenc]

Hey, I sometimes have the same thoughts about myself.  In my previous relationship, there were moments or even certain days where I felt truly 'in love' with her.  But it wasn't a persisting feeling at all.  ANd like you, I find myself to be a generally pretty content person.  I don't stress on things too much, I have a generally positive or optimistic outlook.  So I don't get great spikes in excitement or happiness.

 

One thing I've realized abut myself is that my family had mechanisms to erase enthusiasm.  Enthusiasm and excitement, when i was a kid, was often framed as "being silly", "seeking attention", and otherwise treated as if i was wasting people's time to draw their attention or embarrassing myself, or something like that.  I'm wondering if this connects with you at all? 

 

Also, you 'accepted', at least for argument's sake, the definition of love as "involuntary response to virtue from a virtuous person".  Thus, you have defined both yourself and your girlfriend as virtuous people.  Do you mind stating your case for these conclusions?  What virtues do you both possess?

 

And finally, in the relationship with my ex-girlfriend I had told her I love her when I was feeling it at the high moments, but when I was kind of stuck in the baseline contentedness of my persistent pleasant state, I also professed feelings of love for her, which I'm not sure was a right and honest way to express myself, given that I was not in touch with the same high moments any longer.  Which isn't to say you need to be bursting with joy and pleasure and love 24/7 in order to profess love for someone, but perhaps fleeting moments of a loving feeling don't equate to a true persisting love for someone.  I'm curious, how do you describe your feelings to your girlfriend?  Do you tell her you love her? Does she tell you she loves you?  Have you discussed with her what you have told us about yourself here in your post?  What level of honesty and integrity about your feelings have you achieved with her in this regard?

I hope some of this is helpful for you to delve deeper.

[M.2]

Hi, Hawkland

10 hours ago, Hawkland said:

I have really been wondering lately if I am simply incapable of loving someone. 

Now, take Stefan's definition of love: The involuntary response to virtue if you're virtuous.  What does this response look like exactly? Is it a feeling/emotion? Is it something you do? Now what if the woman in question is clearly virtuous but most of the time doesn't invoke any strong involuntary response in me, does that mean I am not virtuous? I really have no idea what to make of my seeming incapability of experiencing this.

Would you be willing to consider that maybe there is something wrong with the definition of love?

I have found that love is not an emotion, but an action, which is self-sacrifice. If you love someone, it manifests in you sacrificing your time, yur energy and your life for their good. According to the Catholic Church, it is anything but an involuntary response. It is a very conscious decision that you make.

Your problem is that you have had people around you who it did not cost you much effort to love. More than likely, they were the ones sacrificing more for you. If you don't love, that means you have not sacrificed enough yet. A parent loves a baby not because the baby is so virtuous. There is absolutely no virtue in shitting your pants and screaming for attention. The parent loves the child because of all the time and energy they have invested in it.

If you want to FEEL LOVE, you should try loving someone for no reason whatsoever. Try visiting an orphanage, a hospital, a retirement home, or wherever you can give without getting back.
If you give love only if you get love back, that is not love, but business. If you don't give love, and only take love, you are a parasite. If you never get love and never give love, you are probably dead inside. If you give love regardless of what you get back, you are a saint, which few of us are.

[Mole]

 

3 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

If you don't give love, and only take love, you are a parasite. If you never get love and never give love, you are probably dead inside. If you give love regardless of what you get back, you are a saint, which few of us are.

 

Does it have to be win lose lose win? Why can't it be a trade. And by trade I don't mean gifting each other. I mean a metaphysical trade just like you trade an axe for a coconut. Cause and effect. Win win. Selfishness. I would argue anything other than a trade is a form of subjectivism because the person who does not make decisions upon cause and effect believes they don't have to listen to reality and can create their own reality in their little head.

[Mole]

I think it's a bad idea to jump out of a moving car. If you feel something then you still have a great opportunity for growth because if you didn't then you wouldn't be able to admire the person since they would be a burden. That's all calculated unconsciously.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

6 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

Hi, Hawkland

Would you be willing to consider that maybe there is something wrong with the definition of love?

I have found that love is not an emotion, but an action, which is self-sacrifice. If you love someone, it manifests in you sacrificing your time, yur energy and your life for their good. According to the Catholic Church, it is anything but an involuntary response. It is a very conscious decision that you make.

Your problem is that you have had people around you who it did not cost you much effort to love. More than likely, they were the ones sacrificing more for you. If you don't love, that means you have not sacrificed enough yet. A parent loves a baby not because the baby is so virtuous. There is absolutely no virtue in shitting your pants and screaming for attention. The parent loves the child because of all the time and energy they have invested in it.

If you want to FEEL LOVE, you should try loving someone for no reason whatsoever. Try visiting an orphanage, a hospital, a retirement home, or wherever you can give without getting back.
If you give love only if you get love back, that is not love, but business. If you don't give love, and only take love, you are a parasite. If you never get love and never give love, you are probably dead inside. If you give love regardless of what you get back, you are a saint, which few of us are.

I'd like to expand upon Mishi's reply.

Love is an involuntary response to virtue if I am virtuous. To be virtuous (I think) is to be willing to do good for others without the guarantee of gratification and the willingness to sacrifice something of oneself for someone else. However I wouldn't say mutual self-sacrifice is "just business".

Ideally: Man sacrifices time and money to build a house for Woman and Children to live in. Woman sacrifices time and fertility to support Man and raise Children. Children sacrifice their freedom in exchange for security and education. Although Children can't actually make their own decisions in terms of child-parent relations, I'd say that's a fair general statement.

The hard part is knowing for sure what virtue is and how I (or you) would know when I am being virtuous. Is charity virtuous? Is helping others virtuous? Does it depend on the context? Is virtue only self-sacrifice without receiving sacrifice in return? Or is virtue an equivalent exchange between two or more people? 

I don't know the answer (even though I gave one above) and can only guess and try based on what I "feel" is virtuous. I think we who aren't psychopaths have a natural inclination towards knowing what virtue is without being told. I think Christianity could be a helpful guide for figuring it out since Christendom is the foundation of Western Culture.

I've attempted  to combined the definition Mishi gave with Stef's, for I don't think they contradict. If virtue is self-sacrifice without expecting something in return, then it is still possible for a virtuous person to involuntarily have strong feelings for another virtuous person--or perhaps more precisely that person's deeds and history. Arguably a person is their recent actions and history. 

I can't say how to feel love, for I think either you can or you can't. I love Diet Coke. Nowhere near the same way I love quality women and men (especially the high quality women), but I'd say it's a good measure in the same sense a penny is a good measure for financial value.

If you can say you like something (like a good soda or food), then you can compare your liking of that to your liking of something else. Love could be called an extreme liking, but I would add the caveat of "involuntary response to virtue" because there is a fundamental difference between liking something a lot (like a video game) as compared to loving something (like a person). 

I think maybe, after having said all this, you can discover love by filtering out all the crap around you and imagining to yourself what a perfect woman (or man if you're a woman) would be like. You'd love that woman more than anything save the children you bare with her. Compare that ideal with reality, and you have a measurement stick for love. Of course if you want to have all that and if you want your ideal to be truly great rather than subjectively great, then you must live and act virtuously. 

Which again returns me to the question "what is virtue". If you can answer that question without having any holes in it, you can stop pondering and start acting.

My "acting definition" of virtue is borrowed from my younger years: "That which is productive for oneself and others." I consider working to become financially established enough to have a family virtuous for a man, and working to make oneself moral and integral virtuous for a woman. Being a good mother and father is also virtuous. 

However I know my definition is weak, and am therefore up for criticism so I can hammer it out.

In fact, I'm going to make a thread about it.

[mgggb]

18 hours ago, Hawkland said:

Now, take Stefan's definition of love: The involuntary response to virtue if you're virtuous.  What does this response look like exactly? Is it a feeling/emotion? Is it something you do? Now what if the woman in question is clearly virtuous but most of the time doesn't invoke any strong involuntary response in me, does that mean I am not virtuous? I really have no idea what to make of my seeming incapability of experiencing this.

Either she isn't virtuous and you are, you aren't virtuous and she is, or neither of you are virtuous. 

What virtues do you admire about her? 

[Drew.]

19 hours ago, Hawkland said:

However, this was also the case with my first girlfriend, and I always kind of thought of it as normal. It is even the case with my close family members. I don't really feel anything that strongly, except an appreciation, of course. But it is far from overwhelming. I am struggling to find out whether I should just accept this, get over with it and make love arise out of making an effort to improve myself and commit in my relationship.

Now, take Stefan's definition of love: The involuntary response to virtue if you're virtuous.  What does this response look like exactly? Is it a feeling/emotion? Is it something you do? Now what if the woman in question is clearly virtuous but most of the time doesn't invoke any strong involuntary response in me, does that mean I am not virtuous? I really have no idea what to make of my seeming incapability of experiencing this.

 

I really strongly disagree with Stef's definition of love. In my experience and perspective, I see that love in the prerequisite to virtue. Let's take children for example. Child need and deserve unconditional love, so for a parent to base his or her love for the child on whether the child is acting appropriately... that is entirely conditional love. Not only that, but we still have this need when we're adults, it's just our job to love ourselves unconditionally. I have seen people try to love themselves based on how virtuous they are, but that's conditional love and fundamentally doesn't sate the need. What I have seen is that the more people love themselves, the more inspired they are to act with virtue.

I think that conditional love is appropriate for adult relationships. I would say that this appreciation that you feel for your girlfriend is an expression of love. It might not be very strong, but like, admire, appreciation, etc. are all flavors and intensities of love. I think the head-over-heels stuff is entirely inappropriate and based on fantasies and unmet psychological needs, and is completely counter to a healthy adult relationship.

[Jot]

3 hours ago, Drew Davis said:

I really strongly disagree with Stef's definition of love. In my experience and perspective, I see that love in the prerequisite to virtue. Let's take children for example. Child need and deserve unconditional love, so for a parent to base his or her love for the child on whether the child is acting appropriately... that is entirely conditional love. Not only that, but we still have this need when we're adults, it's just our job to love ourselves unconditionally. I have seen people try to love themselves based on how virtuous they are, but that's conditional love and fundamentally doesn't sate the need. What I have seen is that the more people love themselves, the more inspired they are to act with virtue.

I think that conditional love is appropriate for adult relationships. I would say that this appreciation that you feel for your girlfriend is an expression of love. It might not be very strong, but like, admire, appreciation, etc. are all flavors and intensities of love. I think the head-over-heels stuff is entirely inappropriate and based on fantasies and unmet psychological needs, and is completely counter to a healthy adult relationship.

I see no problem with Stefan's definition. 

"Unconditional love" can be easily transposed with affection. I believe the appropriate emotional state towards someone who is not a moral agent yet is the feeling of affection, which affectively speaking is really similar to the feeling of love but differs exactly because of that reason.

 

[Hawkland]

On 5.8.2017 at 4:49 AM, Spenc said:

Hey, I sometimes have the same thoughts about myself.  In my previous relationship, there were moments or even certain days where I felt truly 'in love' with her.  But it wasn't a persisting feeling at all.  ANd like you, I find myself to be a generally pretty content person.  I don't stress on things too much, I have a generally positive or optimistic outlook.  So I don't get great spikes in excitement or happiness.

 

One thing I've realized abut myself is that my family had mechanisms to erase enthusiasm.  Enthusiasm and excitement, when i was a kid, was often framed as "being silly", "seeking attention", and otherwise treated as if i was wasting people's time to draw their attention or embarrassing myself, or something like that.  I'm wondering if this connects with you at all? 

 

Also, you 'accepted', at least for argument's sake, the definition of love as "involuntary response to virtue from a virtuous person".  Thus, you have defined both yourself and your girlfriend as virtuous people.  Do you mind stating your case for these conclusions?  What virtues do you both possess?

 

And finally, in the relationship with my ex-girlfriend I had told her I love her when I was feeling it at the high moments, but when I was kind of stuck in the baseline contentedness of my persistent pleasant state, I also professed feelings of love for her, which I'm not sure was a right and honest way to express myself, given that I was not in touch with the same high moments any longer.  Which isn't to say you need to be bursting with joy and pleasure and love 24/7 in order to profess love for someone, but perhaps fleeting moments of a loving feeling don't equate to a true persisting love for someone.  I'm curious, how do you describe your feelings to your girlfriend?  Do you tell her you love her? Does she tell you she loves you?  Have you discussed with her what you have told us about yourself here in your post?  What level of honesty and integrity about your feelings have you achieved with her in this regard?

I hope some of this is helpful for you to delve deeper.

Thanks for the replies, people. I will respond to a few of these now.

When it comes to virtues, I didn't define both myself and my GF as virtuous people; I was rather pondering the possibility of me not being a virtuous person. Because if we go with Stefan's definition, that could very well be the conclusion, I would say. I am actually not ruling it out. And I think, as mentioned also in this thread, that there may be something to the idea of self-sacrifice and that love is a function of the virtue that is self-sacrifice (of course not talking about pathological self-sacrifice from a place of insecurity).

As for her virtues, her top 3 are probably honesty, loyalty and kindness. I am what you can call radically honest in my relationship with her, and so in this particular relationship honesty is definitely a strength of mine, although I am not too good at being forthright with people in life in general. 

Identifying my own virtues is actually proving to be a little hard once I want to start listing them. But I would list friendly, reliable, fairly self-disciplined. I am sort of a renaissance man who has a very wide range of different skills, and I am also very curious about almost all aspects of the world and a strong hunger for knowledge and understanding. Not sure what virtue that is, but perhaps it is engagement. I am of course also self-reliant, but the question is, am I too much and too independent? If I am too independent, then I have to work on balancing it/scaling it back because I want to have a family and not die alone.

Either way, to answer your last set of questions: Yes, we are very open about this to each other, and she is well aware of all the things I am outlining here. 

 

[Hawkland]

On 5.8.2017 at 9:38 PM, Drew Davis said:

I think the head-over-heels stuff is entirely inappropriate and based on fantasies and unmet psychological needs, and is completely counter to a healthy adult relationship.

I don't really have any expectations of feeling this overwhelming head-over-heels thing. However, it does worry me that I seem to not even get the slightest of butterflies in my stomach before I meet her for the first time in a while, let's say. It's problematic that I can't seem to be getting any guidelines from my emotions. I am really just split 50 50 on this.

[_LiveFree_]

Quote

I had a very good childhood with a stable family. I was even possibly a little spoiled with love, in the sense that I might have learned taking it for granted. Now my father was perhaps not the best at showing affection to my mother or to me. He absolutely loved, but he would just be a little bit awkward about showing it. And so am I when I am with my GF, plus I am not good at being thoughtful and caring and all of those things. It's especially when I am not with her - my mind and soul just wanders off onto other things, and I never really feel a strong need to talk, even though we talk on the phone most days of the week. Nor does it easily strike me to do something for her, surprise her etc. 

 

16 hours ago, Hawkland said:

I don't really have any expectations of feeling this overwhelming head-over-heels thing. However, it does worry me that I seem to not even get the slightest of butterflies in my stomach before I meet her for the first time in a while, let's say. It's problematic that I can't seem to be getting any guidelines from my emotions. I am really just split 50 50 on this.

 

This isn't about your girlfriend or your feelings toward her. It's about your parents' relationship and specifically either your father's mother or your mother. To cut love off takes a persistent heavy weight of dysfunction. Tell us about your father's mother and her relationship to men. How did your dad experience this?

[Hawkland]

5 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

 

 

This isn't about your girlfriend or your feelings toward her. It's about your parents' relationship and specifically either your father's mother or your mother. To cut love off takes a persistent heavy weight of dysfunction. Tell us about your father's mother and her relationship to men. How did your dad experience this?

My parents' relationship has been one long and happy story, actually. However, my father is not a very touchy feely guy and he has always been slightly awkward with physical touch, both with me and with my mother. Plus he is very much like me in that he is not that good at being naturally thoughtful. The same goes for his brother as well as my mother's brother. I never really learned that language of caring and love from my closest family because I never saw it in real life.

My grandmother's relationship to men. Okay, I don't really know much about that dynamic in the family, except my father had a fairly christian upbringing, but I don't really know of any particular dysfunction there. 

[_LiveFree_]

On 8/7/2017 at 6:15 PM, Hawkland said:

My parents' relationship has been one long and happy story, actually. However, my father is not a very touchy feely guy and he has always been slightly awkward with physical touch, both with me and with my mother. Plus he is very much like me in that he is not that good at being naturally thoughtful. The same goes for his brother as well as my mother's brother. I never really learned that language of caring and love from my closest family because I never saw it in real life.

My grandmother's relationship to men. Okay, I don't really know much about that dynamic in the family, except my father had a fairly christian upbringing, but I don't really know of any particular dysfunction there. 

Maybe you don't see certain things as dysfunction when they actually are. You say everything was A Ok with your parents yet you say you can't feel love. Come on man. Do better. Don't you think your girlfriend deserves your maximum effort?

you don't have to describe the relationships I mentioned, but just saying they were fine, move on, is a dodge. 

[neeeel]

On 8/8/2017 at 0:15 AM, Hawkland said:

My parents' relationship has been one long and happy story, actually. However, my father is not a very touchy feely guy and he has always been slightly awkward with physical touch, both with me and with my mother. Plus he is very much like me in that he is not that good at being naturally thoughtful. The same goes for his brother as well as my mother's brother. I never really learned that language of caring and love from my closest family because I never saw it in real life.

My grandmother's relationship to men. Okay, I don't really know much about that dynamic in the family, except my father had a fairly christian upbringing, but I don't really know of any particular dysfunction there. 

I find this interesting. First, you say its been a long and happy story. I suppose thats possible. I realise that there is a wide spectrum of how much touch people like. But in general, it would be fair to say that children desire and need physical touch, they wither and die without it, even. So, either your father is on the extreme end of low need for physical touch. Or, there is dysfunction there with how he , as you say, is "awkward with physical touch both with me and with my mother". Since your mother chose him, and must have known that he didnt like physical touch, then she was happy with that. This means that she too, is either on the extreme end of low need for physical touch, or there is dysfunction with regard to physical closeness. This is probably why they ended up with each other. Either they both didnt need much physical closeness, or they both had a lot of problems with physical closeness and intimacy, and so were glad to find someone who had the same problems. The second is much more likely than the first, in my opinion.

 

Do you remember ever wanting to be close with your parents? Do you remember ever trying to be close, to get hugs, to hug, to snuggle in bed, or whatever?