What is Power?

[RichardY]

What is Power?

[Tyler H]

This is what I came up with, let me know what you think: any quality that allows you to overcome an obstacle in order to achieve a desired end. 

[Eudaimonic]

"Power is the measure of the degree of control you have over circumstances in your life and the actions of the people around you." 

- Robert Green, The 48 Laws of Power

[RichardY]

50 minutes ago, Tyler H said:

This is what I came up with, let me know what you think: any quality that allows you to overcome an obstacle in order to achieve a desired end. 

If I may delve deeper, perhaps an example, such as an athlete or soldier running an obstacle course. Some qualities the participants possess such as, physical strength and mental faculties(Pain Endurance, Concentration, Awareness.). So a combination of qualities would be required for a task, but also a quantifiable amount. Is a desire ever satiated though? Instead of desire could "want" be a better word? Maybe framing is required and whether to expand or go beyond that frame. Desire I guess could be a deep topic of its own.

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Something I heard J.Peterson mention in a passing comment about Competency vs Power Hierarchies. I wonder what the difference between them is, I guess with the power hierarchy there is subordination, where as the competency may allow for spheres of expertise(e.g consultants).

A few quotes and dialogue related to power came to mind, how to digest them not really sure, but thought I chuck them in anyway.

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Private Joker, do you believe in the Virgin Mary?
Private Joker: Sir, no, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Well, well, Private Joker, I don't believe I heard you correctly!
Private Joker: Sir, the private said "no, sir," sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Why you little maggot, you make me want to vomit!
[slaps Joker]
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: You Goddamn communist heathen, you had best sound off that you love the Virgin Mary, or I'm gonna stomp your guts out! Now you DO love the Virgin Mary, don't ya?
Private Joker: Sir, NEGATIVE, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Private Joker, are you trying to offend me?
Private Joker: Sir, NEGATIVE, sir! Sir, the private believes any answer he gives will be wrong and the Senior Drill Instructor will only beat him harder if he reverses himself, SIR! Full Metal Jacket

"Power perceived is Power achieved." The Substitute

"Nature to be commanded must be obeyed." Francis Bacon.

"A living thing seeks above all to discharge its strength--life itself is will to power; self-preservation is only one of the indirect and most frequent results.” Nietzsche

 

Oskar Schindler: Power is when we have every justification to kill, and we don't.
Amon Goeth: You think that's power?
Oskar Schindler: That's what the Emperor said. A man steals something, he's brought in before the Emperor, he throws himself down on the ground. He begs for his life, he knows he's going to die. And the Emperor... pardons him. This worthless man, he lets him go.
Amon Goeth: I think you are drunk.
Oskar Schindler: That's power, Amon. That is power. Schindler's List

 

Thulsa Doom: You broke into my house, stole my property, murdered my servants, and my PETS! And that is what grieves me the most! You killed my snake. Thorgrim is beside himself with grief! He raised that snake from the time it was born.
Conan: You killed my mother! You killed my father, you killed my people! You took my father's sword!
Thulsa Doom: Ah. It must have been when I was younger. There was a time, boy, when I searched for steel, when steel meant more to me than gold or jewels.
Conan: The riddle... of steel?
Thulsa Doom: Yes! You know what it is, don't you, boy? Shall I tell you? It's the least I can do. Steel isn't strong boy, flesh is stronger! Look around you. There, on the rocks; that beautiful girl. [Points to a teenaged girl on a nearby cliff] Come to me, my child... [Beckons to her]
[The acolyte plunges from the rock to her death.]
Thulsa Doom: THAT is strength, boy! THAT is power! The strength and power of flesh! What is steel, compared to the hand that wields it? Look at the strength in your body, the desire in your heart, I gave you this! Such a waste... Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe. Crucify him! Conan The Barbarian

[RichardY]

1 hour ago, Eudaimonic said:

"Power is the measure of the degree of control you have over circumstances in your life and the actions of the people around you." 

- Robert Green, The 48 Laws of Power

So circumstances would be control over your environment? Wouldn't internal ease/integrity(?) perhaps trump that? Though I guess that perhaps wouldn't be power, but something greater.

The actions of the people around you, so would that perhaps involve imprinting behaviours or subtle manipulation that they do not realise. I have heard Stefan say something like. "When you try to control people they resist you."

Which makes me think of Master and Slave Morality. Both are bound to one another. Slave morality more to do with making a virtue of abstinence and charity, where as Master morality is imposing a persons nature on everything essentially. 

[Eudaimonic]

1 hour ago, RichardY said:

So circumstances would be control over your environment? Wouldn't internal ease/integrity(?) perhaps trump that? Though I guess that perhaps wouldn't be power, but something greater.

I would say that one's internal ease/ integrity would fall under one's "circumstances." What "trumps" the other I think is subjective, but I think that if you want to be happy, generally, yes.

1 hour ago, RichardY said:

The actions of the people around you, so would that perhaps involve imprinting behaviours or subtle manipulation that they do not realise. I have heard Stefan say something like. "When you try to control people they resist you."

Which makes me think of Master and Slave Morality. Both are bound to one another. Slave morality more to do with making a virtue of abstinence and charity, where as Master morality is imposing a persons nature on everything essentially. 

Power is a morally neutral term. A person who could truly manipulate/control a person wouldn't face resistance to it, but you have to be really good at it and it won't last in the long run (no power has ever lasted.) A lot of people are amateur manipulators and people can smell it from a mile away, they don't have power in that area. "Control" in this context can also mean control of peoples actions against you, so defooing is an act of power, by separating from your family you limit their ability to abuse you (if they're abusive) which is an act of "control" on their actions.

Master and Slave morality I think, has more to do with one's freedom, not power. One, I think, can have a tremendous amount of power, but little or no freedom. Parents who are abusive to their five-yeal old son have tremendous power over their son, but very little freedom from their son emotionally.

[Magnetic Synthesizer]

The possibility or inevitability of causing change.

 

To be more precise, wherein the existence of the thing that has power leads to a world different than an identical one save for the existence of the thing that has power.

 

Yes a rock under your home has power, it holds things above from falling with it's electromagnetic force and influences many objects with it's mass via gravity.

The world would evolve differently where it not there, therefore it has power. 

Yes, a single difference in anything other than the thing of which we ask if it has power, no matter how small or insignificant to the rest of the world, would still fulfill the requirement.

[RichardY]

1 hour ago, Eudaimonic said:

I would say that one's internal ease/ integrity would fall under one's "circumstances." What "trumps" the other I think is subjective, but I think that if you want to be happy, generally, yes.

Circumstances relate more to adaptability than to power, unless one's ability to change the environment to suit them is equated with power. True adaptability is to adapt yourself to a changing environment. I think internal trumps external, more due to the fact you "potentially" have direct control. Not to say that exerting influence not control on your outside environment is not a bad idea, mans greatest predator being man. Taken to the pinnacle of power wouldn't this be an equivalent of Iron Man?

1 hour ago, Eudaimonic said:

Power is a morally neutral term. A person who could truly manipulate/control a person wouldn't face resistance to it, but you have to be really good at it and it won't last in the long run (no power has ever lasted.) A lot of people are amateur manipulators and people can smell it from a mile away, they don't have power in that area. "Control" in this context can also mean control of peoples actions against you, so defooing is an act of power, by separating from your family you limit their ability to abuse you (if they're abusive) which is an act of "control" on their actions.

Morally neutral or amoral? I think done subtly there isn't much resistance, but people being adaptive learn and adjust to new circumstances eventually. Yes I think being emotionally and economically independent can be an act of power, people also change and can grow apart in time as well.

2 hours ago, Eudaimonic said:

Master and Slave morality I think, has more to do with one's freedom, not power. One, I think, can have a tremendous amount of power, but little or no freedom. Parents who are abusive to their five-yeal old son have tremendous power over their son, but very little freedom from their son emotionally.

I think Master and Slave Morality has effects on one's freedom respectively. But it results from in theory a person(Master) acting as the arbiter of their own destiny, what they want, at any cost and creating their own values (Dr Frankenstein or a Caesar). Slave Morality is a revolt against the Master morality and involves people or a person making virtues out of deprivation, asceticism. (Buddhists, Christians?)Perhaps Master and Slave morality is the result from the exercise of power.  

[RichardY]

On 8/5/2017 at 9:22 PM, Magnetic Synthesizer said:

The possibility or inevitability of causing change.

 

To be more precise, wherein the existence of the thing that has power leads to a world different than an identical one save for the existence of the thing that has power.

 

Yes a rock under your home has power, it holds things above from falling with it's electromagnetic force and influences many objects with it's mass via gravity.

The world would evolve differently where it not there, therefore it has power. 

Yes, a single difference in anything other than the thing of which we ask if it has power, no matter how small or insignificant to the rest of the world, would still fulfill the requirement.

Maybe the better questions would be, how and "why" is power accumulated?

"Yes a rock under your home has power." Makes me think of Yoda talking about the force from Star Wars.

Maybe something like the formula. Power = Volts(potential difference) x Amps(current). Could be compared to a cultural equivalent of power, maybe there is no such thing or it's a question of perspective, perhaps to be powerful is to be limited.