Culture and migration

[GatoVillano]

This morning I was challenging in my mind Stefan's definition of culture, which is to have a group of people that have the same definition of what is right and what is wrong. For example, in my culture, the waste majority of people agree that it is wrong for an adult to marry a 8 yo child, yet in Asia, in countries like India and many Muslims country, it is not considered wrong.

I was trying to make a parallel between this definition of what culture is and the dichotomy between collectivist culture and individualistic culture. I came to the conclusion (and I know that many people will challenge this affirmation) that individualist culture do positive reinforcements and collectivist culture do negative reinforcements.

Lets try a few examples. Where I live, it is good to like poutine, it is good to like traditional music, it is good to be frank and overly honest. But it is not necessary. No one is going to come and kick my ass and I wont be publicly ostracised if I dont like poutine. They wont force spoon it down my throat.

Now, lets take a tribe in Africa. In this tribes, people do dances collectively. When it is the time to hunt, it is wrong if you do not join the group in the dance of ... the lion... or some shit like that. The group will be upset if you stay in your corner. They might wonder what is wrong for a while, but they will eventually give up and reject you from the group.

When you are in Pakistan and you scream out loud ''this woman just burned a Qur'an''. People will lose their shit, beat the woman to death and burn her alive. If you do not join into the frenzy, you might be considered as an accomplice and burned to death as well. This is an other example where it is considered wrong, by the group, to not join in the collective activity.

Notice that when you are in a collective culture, you do not get a reward for conforming  to the collective.  You only get punished when you dont join in. This is why it is negative reinforcement.

In an individualist community, if I am open minded and welcoming to stranger, people will say ''wow, what a great guy''. I might get a few smiles and even a pat on the back if I'm lucky. But I will not get punished if I am not welcoming. Positive reinforcement.

I often hear people coming from collectivist culture saying that my country doesn't have a culture. I believe that they say this because they have a difficulty understanding what an individualist culture is. And if Stefan is right, that people who have an IQ under 90 cannot function in a free society, this means that these people will never be able to function outside of a collective. Knowing this, does this help us deal with low IQ migration. I believe it does. We could create fake collectives inside of our borders in which the ''rights and wrongs'' do not infringe upon our liberties. This would provide the migrants with the group think they desperately need to function and ensure the liberties and freedom of the host population.

I'm really interested in hearing you guys thoughts on the subject =)

[TheRedPanda]

Interesting post!
 

How did you come to the described conclusion about the differences in collectivist and individualistic cultures?

I also come from a very individualist country, and do sometimes hear the same... that my country does not have a culture. Of course, I could name numerous cultural phenomena that I strongly count as culture. One of which, I would agrue is a very homogenuous group-think or consensus. This is interesting since I live in the most indivisualistic country in the world, but yet we are very afraid of conflict and to stand out from the collective norm. Based on this, I find your description of negative vs. positive reinforcement very interesring. Do you have more information about that?

From personal anecdotes, I would say that one can definitely "suffer" negative reinforements in an individualistic culture. Not conforming to consesus can cause people to "freeze you out" of the group in a passive way. Meaning, people wont publicly shame you, but rather stop inviting you, stop responding positively to you or simply ignore you completely. A very negative feeling, I promise you. 

On 8/10/2017 at 8:25 PM, GatoVillano said:

Notice that when you are in a collective culture, you do not get a reward for conforming  to the collective.

I am particularly interested how you came to this conclusion. I have very many friends from India, a very collective culture. From similar anecdotes as above, I would say that collective cultures do have positive reinforcements too. Conforming to the collective is highly praised and people will talk very well about you to others. If you for example provide financial help to someone in the collective, people will speak highly of you, and your rumour and status will rise. Positive reinforcement. Note, I am not arguing against the points you made about negative reinforcment, but I am skeptic to it being described as only negative. 

On 8/10/2017 at 8:25 PM, GatoVillano said:

We could create fake collectives inside of our borders in which the ''rights and wrongs'' do not infringe upon our liberties. This would provide the migrants with the group think they desperately need to function and ensure the liberties and freedom of the host population.

Interesting thought, how would this be done? Some groups of imigrants (e.g. middle eastern) are known to live more according to a klan, do you think your suggestion could enhance this way of thinking rather than assimilating them to individualism? Also, creating fake, unnatural collectives that people shall conform to... sounds a lot like socialism  

Lastly, do you remember when Stefan talked about IQ and democracy? That sounds very intreseting, I would like to know more about it. 

[ofd]

Individualist rights we enjoy (private property, freedom of speech) have to be collectively enforced. If they are not, you can claim to have them, but in reality you don't. Evolution selected people with an individualist mindset in Western Europe because of marriage laws, the way manors worked and because of geographical / climatical conditions.

[barn]

Hi @TheRedPanda

A rough map of IQ distribution of the world (including indigenous people)

 

A rough map of IQ distribution of the world (focusing on the indigenous population)

 

A rough map of population density (2015)

I think you'll find these interviews very interesting :

(For starters) James Flynn and Stefan Molyneux

° Brian Boutwell ('wacko'pedia link) and Stefan Molyneux

+

° Kevin M. Beaver and Stefan Molyneux

(origins of criminality among other things)

° Nicholas Wade and Stefan Molyneux

(historical perspectives amongst others)

° Eric Turkheimer ('wacko'pedia link) and Stefan Molyneux

(environmental aspects amongst others)

° Russell Warne and Stefan Molyneux

(79. 3% textbooks on IQ are inaccurate, contain fallacies... amongst other things)

[RichardY]

14 hours ago, TheRedPanda said:

I also come from a very individualist country, and do sometimes hear the same... that my country does not have a culture. Of course, I could name numerous cultural phenomena that I strongly count as culture. One of which, I would agrue is a very homogenuous group-think or consensus. This is interesting since I live in the most indivisualistic country in the world, but yet we are very afraid of conflict and to stand out from the collective norm. Based on this, I find your description of negative vs. positive reinforcement very interesring. Do you have more information about that?

From personal anecdotes, I would say that one can definitely "suffer" negative reinforements in an individualistic culture. Not conforming to consesus can cause people to "freeze you out" of the group in a passive way. Meaning, people wont publicly shame you, but rather stop inviting you, stop responding positively to you or simply ignore you completely. A very negative feeling, I promise you. 

Really what country is that? Could see on your profile that you live in Scandanavia. Planning a trip to Scandanvia currently, looking at Norway. I reckon that the most individualistic countries are Iceland>Norway,>Sweden>Denmark>UK>Finland.

I guess if you can overcome that negative ostracism ( no easy feat). It' s not like your excluded from participating in the culutre as such, just becomes a lot more difficult, especially considering how expensive things are in Scandanavia.

[TheRedPanda]

24 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Really what country is that? Could see on your profile that you live in Scandanavia. Planning a trip to Scandanvia currently, looking at Norway. I reckon that the most individualistic countries are Iceland>Norway,>Sweden>Denmark>UK>Finland.

I guess if you can overcome that negative ostracism ( no easy feat). It' s not like your excluded from participating in the culutre as such, just becomes a lot more difficult, especially considering how expensive things are in Scandanavia.

Looking at the Inglehart-Wezel chart, Sweden seem to have the most indiviualist culture in the world. https://web.archive.org/web/20131019112321/http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/wvs/articles/folder_published/article_base_54 

On the same note, I would recommend anyone interested to watch the documentary The Swedish Theory of Love. It is easy to think very highly of an individualistic culture, but taking individualism and independence too far has quite horrible consequences. 

Not sure what you mean by "especially considering how expensive things are in Scandinavia". Could you clarify please? 

[RichardY]

Survival vs Self Expression
Traditional vs Secular "Rational"

Really, Sweden a rational country? The most rational in the world? AND the most expressive?

Also worth noting is that only a few decades a go, Norway was dirt poor. Until  North sea oil. I think Sweden might have been different with steel and various manufactruing industries eg. Husquvarna. Norway is way more nationalistic with their Norway day where they dress up and parade, was kind of different seeing that. I think there's the whole German collaboration thing that marred the Swedes a bit, apparently many people said the King was sympathetic to the German Reich.

It's funny because I've seen a lot more churches in Norway and the UK than in supposedly more religious countries like Spain. Also I heard that swearing is related more to religion, where as in the Uk it's sexual swears. 

6 hours ago, TheRedPanda said:

Not sure what you mean by "especially considering how expensive things are in Scandinavia". Could you clarify please? 

Ok just speaking about Norway, I was only briefly in Sweden on a small campervan trip down the coast from Hvisten in Norway.

Like 6 GBP for a f*cking frozen pizza from a supermarket, can get a decent good quality frozen takeway one in the UK for 2GBP in Morrisons. UK is also quite good on special offers, has an excellent variety of produce available. They also reduce the prices of things to like 0.09p to clear before the sell by date.  10GBP for 500ml of beer vs 3.50GBP for a Pint outside of London. (Lucky I don't really drink). Petrol(Gasoline) is expensive 1.29GBP a litre in the UK I'm sure Norway is more. Complete lack of corner stores for minor groceries. Can get charity shops in the UK, thrift stores in Canada and the USA. European countries tend to lack them. Cheap books, clothes(sometimes new) etc

Literally no fresh fish in the north of Norway, unless you fish it yourself, which a lot of German tourists do. Can get Cod and Chips easy in the UK. They pay into medical insurance in Norway over 1,500 GBP a year I think, probably more I don't know. I think rent is compareable but, with all the new Swedes probably higher now.

6 hours ago, TheRedPanda said:

On the same note, I would recommend anyone interested to watch the documentary The Swedish Theory of Love. It is easy to think very highly of an individualistic culture, but taking individualism and independence too far has quite horrible consequences. 

Such as? The massive welfare states probably don't help in Sweden. I remember one podcast talking about rooms going for 250 Euros a night to house migrants, when they had a massive influx before last winter or the one before. 

[barn]

9 hours ago, TheRedPanda said:

Looking at the Inglehart-Wezel chart [...]

Allow me to 'help'...

 

About World Value Survey

In brief:

"The World Values Survey (WVS) is a global research project that explores people’s values and beliefs, how they change over time and what social and political impact they have. It is carried out by a worldwide network of social scientists who, since 1981, have conducted representative national surveys in almost 100 countries.

The WVS measures, monitors and analyzes:

· support for democracy,

· tolerance of foreigners and ethnic minorities,

· support for gender equality,

· the role of religion and changing levels of religiosity,

· the impact of globalization,

· attitudes toward the environment,

· work, family, politics,

· national identity,

· culture, diversity,

· insecurity, and subjective well-being."

 

"Analysis of WVS data made by political scientists Ronald Inglehart and Christian Welzel asserts that there are two major dimensions of cross cultural variation in the world:

1. Traditional values versus Secular-rational values and
2. Survival values versus Self-expression values."

 

 

 

[TheRedPanda]

13 hours ago, RichardY said:

Ok just speaking about Norway, I was only briefly in Sweden on a small campervan trip down the coast from Hvisten in Norway.

Like 6 GBP for a f*cking frozen pizza from a supermarket, can get a decent good quality frozen takeway one in the UK for 2GBP in Morrisons. UK is also quite good on special offers, has an excellent variety of produce available. They also reduce the prices of things to like 0.09p to clear before the sell by date.  10GBP for 500ml of beer vs 3.50GBP for a Pint outside of London. (Lucky I don't really drink). Petrol(Gasoline) is expensive 1.29GBP a litre in the UK I'm sure Norway is more. Complete lack of corner stores for minor groceries. Can get charity shops in the UK, thrift stores in Canada and the USA. European countries tend to lack them. Cheap books, clothes(sometimes new) etc

Literally no fresh fish in the north of Norway, unless you fish it yourself, which a lot of German tourists do. Can get Cod and Chips easy in the UK. They pay into medical insurance in Norway over 1,500 GBP a year I think, probably more I don't know. I think rent is compareable but, with all the new Swedes probably higher now.

Yes, you are absolutely right to say that Scandinavian countries are expensive. I should have been more clear to say that what I did not understand with your statement was the connection between the "expensiveness" and the difficulty of being frozen out from the group. If one is a social outcast (not invited to social gatherings, don't have any friends etc), the person still will not have any troubles surviving because of economy. A person can get social benefits very easily and for a wide variety of reasons. The welfare state is huge, and it takes something like heavy druguse or similar to become homeless for example. Also, there are not any really low-paying jobs. If a person don't manage financially in Scandinavia, he has really destoyed all his chances. 

 

14 hours ago, RichardY said:

Such as? The massive welfare states probably don't help in Sweden. I remember one podcast talking about rooms going for 250 Euros a night to house migrants, when they had a massive influx before last winter or the one before. 

Again, being a social outcast won't directly lead to financial problems unless you are a drug user or have other similar problematic behaviours. The consequences I was refering to are more about social well-being, such as not having any close friends or familiy members that care about you. Being too independent can leave people careless about others. Independence is valued so high that poeple care more about their financial independence than their families. In the documentary, there is an example of a 30+ woman who values her independence more than anything. She does not want to be dependent of a man, so she has decided to become a single mother through a sperm donor. Another example is a 60 something man who commits suicide in his apartment, and is not found for TWO YEARS. And he has children. But no one missed him. Its so heart breaking. I can see this behaviour everywhere. It' s a paradox and a vicious circle. People push each other away to be independent. And they are independent because they are afraid of being pushed away. This is individualsim taken too far in my opinion. People become islands without any emotional connections. 

People value their individualsim higher than familiy values. Women don't seem to hesitate to put their infants in daycare so that they can get back to work and don't have to rely on their boyfriends (marriage is kind of rare these days) for financial support. Staying home with children is commonly called the "female-trap". Because staying home means you work less, which means you won't get a good pension. Which means you have to trust your boyfriend/husband to pay for you... which means you are dependent, and trapped! In a way, everybody is a social outcast. But nobody can recognize it. 

[RichardY]

On 6/15/2018 at 11:04 AM, TheRedPanda said:

Yes, you are absolutely right to say that Scandinavian countries are expensive. I should have been more clear to say that what I did not understand with your statement was the connection between the "expensiveness" and the difficulty of being frozen out from the group. If one is a social outcast (not invited to social gatherings, don't have any friends etc), the person still will not have any troubles surviving because of economy. A person can get social benefits very easily and for a wide variety of reasons. The welfare state is huge, and it takes something like heavy druguse or similar to become homeless for example. Also, there are not any really low-paying jobs. If a person don't manage financially in Scandinavia, he has really destoyed all his chances. 

More that if you were frozen out of the social group in the past, you freeze in reality. Goes below -20c right. Not that the danger is as real now with modern technology, still, dependent on oil though.

In terms of expense, things don't have to be monetary per se, it can be in terms of social cooperation, car pooling for example. What I mean is that any dissent is more difficult, when the cost of living is so high. It's not like you can effectively complain, passively resist, participate in the general culture when you have high expenses. You could still Gatecrash parties though, in a way you couldn't in other cultures. In India people could passively resist, the whole Ghandi thing, warmer climate.

Yeah the welfare state in Sweden is huge, but that was only initially sustained by the manufacturing base built up by supplying other countries with tools & weapons, being a "neutral country". What sustains it now? 

I know that Swedes do work accross the border in Norway for higher wages, or many young people work in Ireland where the tax rate corporate and personal is much lower. Many companies are registered in Eastern Europe to avoid many of the regulations and higher wages in Scandanvia despite being based there. Like anywhere, if you have connections, you have have opportunity.

On 6/15/2018 at 11:04 AM, TheRedPanda said:

Again, being a social outcast won't directly lead to financial problems unless you are a drug user or have other similar problematic behaviours. The consequences I was refering to are more about social well-being, such as not having any close friends or familiy members that care about you. Being too independent can leave people careless about others. Independence is valued so high that poeple care more about their financial independence than their families. In the documentary, there is an example of a 30+ woman who values her independence more than anything. She does not want to be dependent of a man, so she has decided to become a single mother through a sperm donor. Another example is a 60 something man who commits suicide in his apartment, and is not found for TWO YEARS. And he has children. But no one missed him. Its so heart breaking. I can see this behaviour everywhere. It' s a paradox and a vicious circle. People push each other away to be independent. And they are independent because they are afraid of being pushed away. This is individualsim taken too far in my opinion. People become islands without any emotional connections. 

"I am a rock, I am an Island...."

Personally I think it's a behaviour to avoid inbreeding. Which would be much more devastating, to a lower birth rate. Given the scarcity, but even distribution of resources as well, introversion would have been selected as a more prevelant personality. 

See similar things personality wise in my own family. They are not particularly social, but need "independence". Was interesting the first interview Stefan did with Tommy Robinson, where he talked about middle class vs working class and the difference in socialbility.

I did wonder if social activity groups might be successful, given the many small isolated villages in Norway.

I still think Norway is more individualistic than Sweden. Sweden even has much of it government and military modelled after the French (more collectivist) Where as Norway is closer to the UK. Norwegian are also more broader and stockier than the swedes, given the thin soil and rocky terrain. The swedes are more slender and style orientated. Thought it was funny Norway didn't really have a set Alphabet/script, unitil fairly recent history, when they borrowed the Danish Bokmal.

 

On 6/15/2018 at 11:04 AM, TheRedPanda said:

People value their individualsim higher than familiy values. Women don't seem to hesitate to put their infants in daycare so that they can get back to work and don't have to rely on their boyfriends (marriage is kind of rare these days) for financial support. Staying home with children is commonly called the "female-trap". Because staying home means you work less, which means you won't get a good pension. Which means you have to trust your boyfriend/husband to pay for you... which means you are dependent, and trapped! In a way, everybody is a social outcast. But nobody can recognize it. 

That's not really individualism, but hedonism. Individualism would be, if you have made a commitment to be a mother or a father, you are a mother or father; and not a careerist, pleasure seeker(hedonism) or scholar. What's lacking is perhaps self knowledge either through, community interaction, religion/psychology or philosophy. 

"The female-trap". Really women will work independently in Sweden, so a husband could put his feet up?

[Jsbrads]

Your question reminded me of a rule in psychology. 

A nation is a stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, ethnicity or psychological make-up manifested in a common culture

from Wikipedia