Kane and Abel, plus cultural references. *Spoilers

[RichardY]

So Kane is a Farmer and Abel a Herdsmen. 
One day they decide to make a sacrifice to God.
God looks favourably on Abel's offering and on Kane's he did not look favourably.
Kane annoyed asks God Why, God Replies that Sin is at his door. 
and that if you do well shall you not be rewarded and if not desire is your master.
Later Kane talked with his brother in the field, then killed him.
Then the Lord said to Kane where is thy Brother-
I know not: am I my brother's keeper.
What have you done, your brothers blood cryeth from the ground.
and now you are cursed from the Earth that received your Brother's Blood.
The Earth would have given you Strength, now you shall be a fugitive and Vagabond.
Then Kane said to God, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
I have nothing to depend on and people will kill me.
OK fair enough, who ever kills you gets 7 times the pain.
And here's a Mark so people will know.
So Kane went East of Eden to the Land of Nod and built a city.
Kane's decedents built a civilisation with Technology and their own laws to make life easier.
Then God decided to wipe them all out with a flood. But saving the Hillbillies.

 

What if Abel was letting his goats on Kane's part of land that he was farming and eating his crops, sounds like an infringement of property rights. Kane even had a word with Abel(so it was premeditated murder, though maybe there was a concept of an afterlife for people?), I mean the parents were probably dopey growing up in Eden lying naked and eating fruit all day as well. 

On the other hand Kane should be protecting his crops from pests, maybe kill some of Abel's goats instead. It would be easier to pen a few goats then Hundreds of Acres of land with primitive strains of cereals. I guess Kane could have been a herder as well and reeked havoc on neighbouring tribes. All said though Kane didn't really have what he desired in order though (didn't think through consequences and ideals). Even if Abel was a dick, letting his herds eat Kane's crops. Interestingly I looked up the etymology of Abel and it means Vain.

I got the idea from reading Frankenstein that the Mark of Kane is Wisdom Teeth from her description of the demon and it's explanation of only requiring a coarse diet to survive. Also 1) Because Kane is a farmer, therefore he needed the equipment for a coarse diet. 2) Because Wisdom implies knowledge of good and evil. 3) Because dental records provide identification. 4) Not everyone has Wisdom teeth.  Could be a squiggly mark though(google search), kind of looks a bit like an inverted Jawbone with teeth at the back, stretch of the imagination though.

7 also seems to have some significance culturally.

Some additional thoughts

 

Prometheus (Forethought, Kane) 

2 Offerings to the Gods.  Bones glistened with Fat (appealing but barren). A stomach with meat inside. (unappealing, but with hidden reward). Fire, sometimes related to desire. Epimetheus (Afterthought, Abel)

 

Alien Covenant

So a group of colonists are going to a new world, unconscious they are woken by a solar flare damaging the ship. Once they fix the ship they receive a transmission of "Country Roads" and information about a new planet that looks more immediately  habitable then the one they are going to. All of the colonists except the Christian decide to break their covenant and head for the greener pastures. Anyway they find the planet devoid of all animal life, but with cultivated vegetation. Later in the movie you find out that David the android from Prometheus wiped out and mutated all animal life on the planet with a mutagen from the first film. Presumably because imo, though the film leaves this ambiguous,  the species on the planet related to the Engineers contributed to the death of his friend Elizabeth Shaw and he felt he should mutate, perhaps killing them, to try and make them more conscious. Kind of an Ozymandias vibe about it.

The Aliens themselves are not violent, but the colonists attack them, provoking them to attack back. At the beginning of the film there is also a reference to David's development growing up a kind of Oedipal complex also expressed in the Story "Frankenstein The Modern Prometheus". Where the creator Dr Frankenstein invests so much time in creating life that when he finally does, he is jealous of it and rejects it. 

 

Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.

Koba(Kane) also a mix of tubal Kane (Weapons artificer) Caeser falls from the city walls, reminiscent of Romulus throwing Remus from the walls and founding Rome. Also that Caeser and Koba weren't raised by Apes, concurrent with  Romulus and Remus being fed by a she Wolf. In the Film Ceasar kills Ash(Abel) in a Similar way, as well.

[Jsbrads]

Kane (Cain) claimed all the land was strictly his.

Kane did not ask God why. 

The original offering was Kane gave some fruits, Abel gave the best.

Kane responded by depression, not a logical step for someone stolen from.

God initiated an intervention for a guy grumbling about things not going his way.

Kane's murder of Abel followed the sacrifices and God's warning that depression can cause the brain to become active in finding enemies that don't exist. 

[RichardY]

@JsbradsInteresting seeing additional lore, and symbology that goes on. Can infer things intuitively sometimes, seemingly not much interest in the topic. Might be imagining things, but did you mention something about Abel claiming the air, guess not much changes in siblings trolling one another. 

[Gnostic Bishop]

RichardY

Greetings.

I do not read scriptures literally.

In allegorical terms, Cane is earth bound while Abel and his sheep represent our spiritual side.

Is this story not interpreted by Gnostic Christians as saying that the evil side has killed our spiritual side and that is why we see Christianity and Yahweh as an evil demiurge?

Regards

DL

 

 

 

[RichardY]

@Gnostic Bishop Hello welcome to the forum.

Yeah I don't tend to read religious writing literally either, although I think there are various passages from the Bible at least that have psychological value. Started a thread a while go for helpful passages from the Bible after seeing a lot of criticism, like to flip topics sometimes. That Jordan Peterson guy has been interesting on Youtube, but not quite the same amount of variety as Stefan, although talking about the Big 5 Personality Traits rather than a focus on IQ has been interesting.

Don't really know much about Gnostic Christianity(novice opinion, looks like a perverted playing out of Daoism) just what's on Wikipedia, though can see that Demiurge is a Phallic Symbol, so masculine,"our Father". Islam has a symbol of the crescent moon so feminin. 

"Demiurge." (Meat and 2 Veg)

Just seemed to me that Abel was perhaps being a dick, to have his brother kill him out of the blue in the Bible. Being made aware that on the Internet that there was a Kabalistic version/story/fleshing-out "The Penitence of Adam" which I glanced at. Kind of like superhero comics I guess.

I mean Caine is generally seen as the bad guy, but would that have been so in just the old Testament? I mean equitable treatment does get blown out, with mass reprisals, then the flood. Should Caine have been like Jesus? Looks like a good way of being shafted, guess that's one way of killing your spirit or not. 

"If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them." Luke 6:29

"because you're mine I walk the line" - Johnny Cash.

"Hassan Chop" - Hassan.

Personally somewhere between Hassan and Johnny Cash, though I wonder about concepts such as "Enlightenment", or "The Monad". In the case of the Monad, whether it is "a thing in itself" which provides freewill,consciousness(God) or an expression of the unified reaction between the conscious and unconscious mind(Magic meat interaction) I have no way of knowing, so I agree with Carl Jung that psychological dualism is a mature way of considering things. 

[Gnostic Bishop]

RichardY

Thanks for the greeting.

The use of the word father to represent God is a lot older than Christianity. Strange to think that when Jung and Freud developed their Father Complex, they might have just been putting words to what we have been doing forever. That being calling our instincts father.

Apotheosis may be just another term for us finding our Father Complex through Gnosis.

It is demonstrable that we have an instinct package that is passed through our genes and that package is likely what Jung and Freud based their Father Complex on.

The Caine and Abel myth, if not pure allegory as expressed by this link, then it might be as some speculate which is the Jews showing the conflict between their old shepherd days and the new farming ways that they needed to adopt. I do not see that as it is kind of backwards and the farmer should have killed ogg the shepherd.

Regards

DL

 

 

[Jsbrads]

I don't think Abel claimed all of the air.

Cain claimed all the land. Then said Abel wasn't allowed on the land. Had Abel the ability to fly, I doubt even that would have satisfied Cain. 

[Wuzzums]

Nowhere in the story it is implied Cain's offering to be of a lower quality than Abel's. God even specifies this. This is what makes the story so deep. Cain's fortune was above Abel's, he was firstborn and therefore the land was his yet this did not matter to him. It's Cain who offers a sacrifice first which implies that regardless of his fortune in life what he sought most was God's love even though one can argue he already had it considering his lot in life. Abel's murder wasn't a result of envy, Cain did it to spite God.

On 8/13/2017 at 3:35 PM, RichardY said:

Alien Covenant

So a group of colonists are going to a new world, unconscious they are woken by a solar flare damaging the ship. Once they fix the ship they receive a transmission of "Country Roads" and information about a new planet that looks more immediately  habitable then the one they are going to. All of the colonists except the Christian decide to break their covenant and head for the greener pastures. Anyway they find the planet devoid of all animal life, but with cultivated vegetation. Later in the movie you find out that David the android from Prometheus wiped out and mutated all animal life on the planet with a mutagen from the first film. Presumably because imo, though the film leaves this ambiguous,  the species on the planet related to the Engineers contributed to the death of his friend Elizabeth Shaw and he felt he should mutate, perhaps killing them, to try and make them more conscious. Kind of an Ozymandias vibe about it.

The Aliens themselves are not violent, but the colonists attack them, provoking them to attack back. At the beginning of the film there is also a reference to David's development growing up a kind of Oedipal complex also expressed in the Story "Frankenstein The Modern Prometheus". Where the creator Dr Frankenstein invests so much time in creating life that when he finally does, he is jealous of it and rejects it. 

Ridley Scott is a Dune fan and his latest movies (Prometheus and Covenant) make a whole lot of sense if they're happening in the Dune universe. In the books there are several references to the Butlerian Jihad, a holy war between man (the slaves) and their rulers (the machines). Humans were triumphant and a core "truth" was derived: evil = machine think (AI). Creating, owning, or using intelligent devices was heresy of the highest order and the punishment was death. Humans colonized all galaxies meaning Earth was just one planet of 7 billion in a total human population that filled the entire universe. Just an insignificant amount in the grand scheme of things. And out of 7 billion not one was innocent of heresy (for having created, owned, and used thinking machines).

This is why the Engineer in Prometheus attacks the crew only AFTER he learns David is a synthetic, a machine. Literally the devil in the Engineer's eyes. In the theatrical release it appears the Engineers attacks them straight after he wakes up, in the deleted scenes they actually have a very long amicable conversation which turns violent only when Weyland mentions David is artificial. In the scene we see a close-up of the Engineer's face which expresses a combination of shock and regret. This is why the Engineers wants to destroy Earth and this is why he was amazed by a movie projector on a wall. Engineers' technology was very primitive lest it would run out of control again and enslave humanity for another million years. This of course explains why the Engineer's homeworld was so primitive.

Another hint at the Dune universe is the planet they land on. In the distance at some point we can see a massive mountain that's shaped like a huge fat man with a skull instead of a face. The design is based on H.R. Geiger's concept art for the Baron Harkonnen's castle. H.R. Geiger was recruited at the time to create the Harkonnen look on a Dune movie project that ultimately failed. Later on H.R. Geiger will go on to create the Alien designs.

In Covenant David learns all of this and this is why he decides to wipe out the entire planet. If he didn't he would have been torn apart himself. It was a "me or them" type of scenario. In the sequel David flat out refers to himself as The Devil and takes this role very seriously, even referring to the colonists as "souls" rather than people. He, like the devil, corrupts life and creates flesh that kills other flesh. Practically speaking it was unambiguous in the movie that David could have taken out the whole crew by himself but this is not the way of the devil. Deceit, lies, and temptation are the tools of the trade, all of which are traits David clearly exhibits in Prometheus

 

But to return to the Cain and Abel story. The best movie to showcase the myth is Amadeus. It is told from the "villain's" perspective, Salieri (Cain), which devotes his whole life to doing good and serving God hoping in return he would become a great and famous musician. He gets what he wants: fame, fortune and the respect of his peers. It turns into a revenge movie (against God) when he meets Mozart (Abel) which Salieri recognizes to be favored by God. Mozart had talent beyond anyone's comprehension except his which was a punishment too great to bare. I highly recommend the movie, it's one of my favorites.

[Jsbrads]

Genesis 4:3-4 ...Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.

Abel didn't innovate, but he tried to give the best. Cain gave regular quality, not the best.

[Wuzzums]

3 hours ago, Jsbrads said:

Genesis 4:3-4 ...Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.

Abel didn't innovate, but he tried to give the best. Cain gave regular quality, not the best.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_and_Abel#Genesis_narrative

I'm looking into different translations and there's an interesting one in the orthodox christian religion where God implies Cain did something wrong with his sacrifice because Cain's face was fallen, implying in turn God did not actually know what Cain's sin was but he knew Cain sinned by the look of his face.

Maybe it's about ego. Cain's sacrifice was of equal measure but God preferred Abel's.

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎28‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 4:40 AM, Wuzzums said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_and_Abel#Genesis_narrative

I'm looking into different translations and there's an interesting one in the orthodox christian religion where God implies Cain did something wrong with his sacrifice because Cain's face was fallen, implying in turn God did not actually know what Cain's sin was but he knew Cain sinned by the look of his face.

Maybe it's about ego. Cain's sacrifice was of equal measure but God preferred Abel's.

If so, what is the moral of the story? That God does not know how to treat his children properly perhaps?

We already knew that from reading Gen 3.

That cannot be it and that is why I prefer what that link gives us.

As a Gnostic Christian, the notion of having to kill off my carnal mind and be reborn by Gnosis comes naturally though.

The literal reading you guys are doing is not the Gnostic Christian way.

Regards

DL

 

[Wuzzums]

3 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

If so, what is the moral of the story? That God does not know how to treat his children properly perhaps?

We already knew that from reading Gen 3.

That cannot be it and that is why I prefer what that link gives us.

As a Gnostic Christian, the notion of having to kill off my carnal mind and be reborn by Gnosis comes naturally though.

The literal reading you guys are ding is not the Gnostic Christian way.

Regards

DL

 

 

The point is that it has no clear interpretation. For such a short story, barely a paragraph long, it's possible it holds everything you need to know or can know about human strife.

[RamynKing]

What do you guys think of this stuff?

• Jewish Cain, Abel and Seth were stolen from Osiris, Set and Horus⁸ 
   
• The conflict between Cain and Abel was stolen from Set and Osiris and as the story goes on, it is later based upon the Sumerian Dumuzi and Enkimdu ⁹ 

• ¹ 101 Myths of the Bible by Gary Greenburg © 2000 pages 3-24
•  
• ⁸ Ibid, page 9
• ⁹ Ibid, pages 68-69

 

 

[HasMat]

On 9/28/2017 at 11:46 AM, Gnostic Bishop said:

If so, what is the moral of the story? That God does not know how to treat his children properly perhaps?

We already knew that from reading Gen 3.

That cannot be it and that is why I prefer what that link gives us.

As a Gnostic Christian, the notion of having to kill off my carnal mind and be reborn by Gnosis comes naturally though.

The literal reading you guys are ding is not the Gnostic Christian way.

Regards

DL

 

Do you know what a fractal universe looks like?

Patterns in abstract forms also experience a material form.

[Jsbrads]

Gen 3? What about that?

according to the Bible story, Cain & Abel predate Egypt. 

Prometheus and Hercules predate Jesus. 

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎28‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 8:22 PM, Wuzzums said:

The point is that it has no clear interpretation. For such a short story, barely a paragraph long, it's possible it holds everything you need to know or can know about human strife.

Yes, strife within our own minds.

Our left hemisphere trying to tell our right hemispheres what to do. Our carnal minds trying to tell our spiritual minds what to think.

Continue to read the bible literally and you will never get what the scribes were trying to tell us.

The fruit of the land is from the carnal mind while the lamb is representing spiritual wisdom or ideas.

It is likely that the story is as short as it is because people in that day did not read their myths literally and all knew to take the allegorical view with it. 

Regards

DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎30‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 9:28 AM, RamynKing said:

What do you guys think of this stuff?

• Jewish Cain, Abel and Seth were stolen from Osiris, Set and Horus⁸ 
   
• The conflict between Cain and Abel was stolen from Set and Osiris and as the story goes on, it is later based upon the Sumerian Dumuzi and Enkimdu ⁹ 

• ¹ 101 Myths of the Bible by Gary Greenburg © 2000 pages 3-24
•  
• ⁸ Ibid, page 9
• ⁹ Ibid, pages 68-69

 

 

Most of the plagiarizing done for the bible and Jewish myths likely came from Sumer and Egypt. As to the almost identicalness of the various stories, Joseph Campbell would likely say that that sameness iss what helped him develop his hero of 1000 faces theory.

Note how our own entertainment industry is coming up with remakes of older stories.

Religions are entertainment as well as whatever else they claim to be.

Ya gotta have a good show to make the biggest splash in town.

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎30‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 11:17 AM, HasMat said:

Do you know what a fractal universe looks like?

Patterns in abstract forms also experience a material form.

I am aware of fractals, and sure computer simulations can be formed in the material world.

I do not see the connection you are trying to make to the story at hand.

Enlighten us my friend.

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

11 hours ago, Jsbrads said:

Gen 3? What about that?

according to the Bible story, Cain & Abel predate Egypt. 

Prometheus and Hercules predate Jesus. 

I have yet to read of Cain and Abel in anything I have read of Egypt.

I do not think that those are Egyptian names. Mind you, they are not Middle Eastern names either.

Perhaps you can reference something.

Regards

DL

[RichardY]

@Wuzzums

A Few quotes from Wikipedia on Prometheus

"Further religious allusions are implied by the Engineers' decision to punish humanity with destruction 2,000 years before the events of the film. Scott suggested that an Engineer was sent to Earth to stop humanity's increasing aggression, but was crucified, implying it was Jesus Christ"

"David investigates the cylinder and the liquid inside. He intentionally taints a drink with the liquid and gives it to the unsuspecting Holloway, who had stated he would do anything for answers. Shortly after, Shaw and Holloway have sex."

I guess that if the Dune lore were included(machines evil as a fundamental truth), that would mean David would always, choose hurtful actions towards others that they implicitly authorised. Like the movie Wishmaster if you've heard of it. Effectively meaning David had no Freewilll, absolute morality. This would be the equivalent of the Absolute Morality of Islam, "Allah wills it" or Allah doesn't like you.

Archetypal Figures

Promethean(Ego-Deflation, Depression): Prometheus, Lucifer, Jesus Christ, Millennials("in general").    "Evil" Form: (as far as other's are unconscious of Evil in themselves):  Seth, The Sith, Kain, Anti-Christ, David(Alien Covenant), The Demon(Frankenstein). 

Epithemus, (Ego-Inflation, Arrogance): Horus, The Jedi, Abel, Walter, Baby Boomers("in general")      "Evil" Form? Satan? SJW, Virtue Signalling.

 

High Conscientiousness vs Low Conscientiousness

Was thinking how Engineers and Predators are opposite sides of the same coin (Neuroticism and No Very Low Agreeableness)

Engineers: Baby Face, Favourite Colour Grey, Exterminate entire species. Settled.

Predators: "You're One Ugly Motherfucker"(or tend not to shave), Cloaking device, Surgical Strike, if failure, nuke locality. Space faring.

 

 

 

[RichardY]

Possible Spoiler for Alien Covenant sequel

What if the Engineers are all Sterile? In that they only reproduce with clones. The Predators in contrast I think have a  strong pheromone odor. Would effectively be like the British Sci fi villain the Daleks also clones and Highly Conscientious. All male. Would also mean the Engineer homeworld would be totally fucked by an Alien pathogen.

[Jsbrads]

Just an internal reference to the Bible, but Egypt was a son of Ham (a son of Noah) Genesis 10:6

[Wuzzums]

On 10/2/2017 at 7:18 PM, RichardY said:

@Wuzzums

A Few quotes from Wikipedia on Prometheus

"Further religious allusions are implied by the Engineers' decision to punish humanity with destruction 2,000 years before the events of the film. Scott suggested that an Engineer was sent to Earth to stop humanity's increasing aggression, but was crucified, implying it was Jesus Christ"

"David investigates the cylinder and the liquid inside. He intentionally taints a drink with the liquid and gives it to the unsuspecting Holloway, who had stated he would do anything for answers. Shortly after, Shaw and Holloway have sex."

I guess that if the Dune lore were included(machines evil as a fundamental truth), that would mean David would always, choose hurtful actions towards others that they implicitly authorised. Like the movie Wishmaster if you've heard of it. Effectively meaning David had no Freewilll, absolute morality. This would be the equivalent of the Absolute Morality of Islam, "Allah wills it" or Allah doesn't like you.

Now that you mentioned it, the tainted drink might also be alluding to the apple in the Garden of Eden making the black goo in turn an allegory to forbidden knowledge. The biologist and geologist also die after interacting, so to speak, with the black goo but in their case in the form of a snake-like creature.

[Jsbrads]

As to Cain and Abel name origin, the Bible is in Hebrew...

Hebrew is both sister language to both Arabic and Aramaic. 

[HasMat]

On 10/1/2017 at 2:54 PM, Gnostic Bishop said:

I am aware of fractals, and sure computer simulations can be formed in the material world.

I do not see the connection you are trying to make to the story at hand.

Enlighten us my friend.

Regards

DL

Basically I would revive alchemy (fire, water, air, earth). But my accusation against others is that they hate evidence, which all points to weird magic behavior of the universe, which is very unlike our intuitive understanding of common phenomena like riding a bike or seeing a sunset.

For example of fractal I would use Water as many things: qua passive fullness, qua primordial Big Bang, qua breach between heaven (space) and earth (matter), qua literal ocean, qua era divide between Adam and Noah (flood), qua reproductive essence, qua femininity, qua metaphoric water (of life or whatever). Starting from highly raw and elemental part of reality, and descending into higher layers of expression and abstraction.

 

We call things by mental representations we have learned, such as physical, social, intellectual. But the internal content (our qualia) of semantics is hidden. Solopsism is non-falsifiable. I can never know if you experience "redness" as the same color as I do.

 

You call something physical as matter, but there is no proof we hold the same internal qualia about that essence. What I call figurative, could be how you experience literal. It's not just colors that could be mismapped in our internal experience, it's anything! (I'm sure this will trigger objections, but I assure you they don't exist and only occur if limitation in your abstract thinking)

 

When looking at Plato's Cave, all we have is the manifestation, and language. We don't access objects in any native essence, deprived of context. We see cave shadows in our own solopsist way, and talk to each other using agreed upon words, never knowing if that qualia is a true match for others qualia.

 

When a universal constant, necessary for life as we know it like a gravity coefficient, precedes the Big Bang, what should those words mean? Is it fair to call a universal constant "earth" because it is static? Is it fair to call original space-time "water" because it resists motion or is generative like a woman's womb? In the Bible, the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters, and divided the waters. If you are talking about essences that precede known operands, you use a metaphor with a quality that feelz similar.

 

But in the creation of the universe, less complex urge forms took on more complex inert forms. Space-time and pure energy at the Big Bang eventually "slow", and complexify into literal oceans. What is once a metaphor (water) later becomes a literal (ocean). All things are created spiritually before physically (platonic forms precede instantiation of objects)

 

In a fractal universe, essence in one domain (such as space) resists, combines, transforms, and spills into new domains (atom/molecule). Carrying similar quality (such as resistive), but transforming into a new qualia representation.

Fire: active, empty

Water: passive, full

Air: passive, empty

earth: active, full

 

In many Eastern Philosophies, the contrast between emptiness and fullness is a major doctrine. Some schools say that an object is totally empty ("there is no spoon"), and we just project our own subjective interpretations onto blank templates. Thus we see in reality a mere reflection of ourselves. Objects don't exist, only subjects who contextualize emptiness. In that rendition, an apple is red, because I am red, in some way internally.

Physics represents this with the Observer Effect, and superposition collapsing. Schrodinger's Cat doesn't have an objective state until an Observer contextualizes it. Objects exist AFTER subjects give it form; they are formless and void until a witness. (Bible uses this language to describe pre-created earthwater hybrid)

 

In a fractal universe, yes metaphorical qualities like primordial "water" exist, to mentally represent elements unknown to Biblical audiences from past millenia, but they also exist in more crude and literal forms in later derived contexts, as regular h 2 0.

The story of Adam and Eve can be both a figurative story about prehistoric evolution between hunter/gatherer (Cain) and livestock based (Abel) pastoral economic systems, as well as a story about a SuperBeing genetically engineering a forward leap in human evolution, putting him in a garden, and "actions have consequences".

 

When the end-state of the universe is known (teleology), in all its technological glory, then we can discuss whether a SuperAI can use tachyons or backward causality to create Adam, or whether a timetraveling SuperBeing even makes sense to discuss/restrict in terms of linear time.

 

We don't know what physics and science will show us. We know humans have limited understanding, and that computers can tell us many things beyond human ability to verify. Quantum computing is it's own miracle, regardless of strong AI.

 

It does not yet appear what we shall be, what the universe shall become. It is premature to rule out a literal Adam, and to rule out a figurative Adam.

 

To me the most exciting facet of a fractal universe with a Biblical pretext, is the repeat of the Bible in inverse order. That puts us right before the Tower of Babel, and the massive multicultural experiment where Nimrod fought his personal representation of "god", causing social implosion and diaspora. Next come giants (neanderthals). This is very likely going to happen via genetic engineering. God commanded Israelites to slaughter them like beasts because they are evil megafauna and not really human. It was a genocide of non-human animals, and we will resurrect them with cloning.

 

The genetics and geography of Adam in Eden line up, whites first discovered 6-20k years ago in southeast asia (eastward in eden). That makes a literal Adam, but that doesn't preclude a figurative in an earlier age.

 

Was the Tower of Babel a quantum computer/worm hole to modern computers, like CERN? Is the scattering at the Tower of Babel a foreshadow of what multiculturalism will do to Western Civilization?

 

Is science actually true? Quantum computing and AI are very popular, but is it fucking true? These things have enormous potential, as pretended, as "sci fact". Backward causality means information can travel back in time. That means the most complex and perfect being the universe will ever create, it is as though it has ALREADY been created.

 

Either you believe in science (which opens door for crazy Biblical stories being literally true), or you believe in a Newtonian universe. Newtonian universes are safe and stable, and you can be a beer guzzling atheist who is tepid in pursuit of virtue.

 

I don't know all things, but I do now that virtue causes power, and it is never a waste to be virtuous. It is for this reason that I appreciate Stephan, even though he presents atheist arguments.

 

To me, the real problem with atheists is the same as you. Lack of imagination to understand teleology, premature closure of universe's hypothetical potential. We don't know. What we know is that pursuing virtue is worthwhile, and the rest of these answers will sort themselves out in time.

 

Paul says, it does not yet appear what we shall be. The empiric behavior of the universe is relativistic at macro scales, and batshit crazy at micro scales. Newtonian physics is dead. Neitzsche's god is alive.

 

Do we worship empiricism or not? Reality is not as our senses present it to us; senses tell us a Newtonian story.

 

If we worship empiricism, we must discard Newtonian explanations of the universes final potential. IMO, very few people actually give a fuck about empiricism. They just use it as a cover story to rebel against virtue, as their qualia presents it to them.

 

What is becoming increasingly obvious to me, is that my childhood conception of history, where the olden days with horses and wagons, as primitives, is actually accurate of our current world. We are primitive in relation to what is coming. We are living in the equivalent of dirt roads, buggy whips, and wild wild west shoot 'em up. Synthetic GMO (hybrid biorobots) will be released into our ecosystems, and will become part of our environment.

 

Things like telephone poles (casual furnishings of our everyday world) will be constructed at atomic level, provide all kinds of technological functions, integrate with nature, and be measuring devices. Animals will be Kroenenberg's, and the rich will genetically engineer superhuman babies.

 

It's not just physics, or just biology, or just computing. It's the whole world is progressing, accelerating. Morally, economically, politically, culturally (red pill getting out), and most obviously, technologically. Evil is growing in same proportions too, but that's another story.

 

These various fields have synergistic function as they collaborate, which is a major reason to get women into STEM (awesome collaborators). At the highest levels of intelligence, math and linguistics merge into the same essence. Math bridges gap from real to abstract, language bridges gap from abstract to real. Their base classes are real (3 apples are empiric) and abstract (widget are imaginary). They are just different methods to cover the same chasm.

 

Like a fractal of the human brain, a STEM industry with autistic males doing the dirty heavy processing, interconnected by collaborative females, resembles the structure of nuclei and commissure (grey vs white matter, protein vs fat, male vs female, task processing vs module connection).

 

Mental representations in one domain filter to more literal representations in more crude domains, but the principles are conserved (competence vs relatedness, task performance vs collaboration, social dominance vs many kin).

 

Men succeed by social dominance, women dominate by being genetically related to everyone (reducing threat): competence vs relatedness. Which, for women, means false accusations against unlike (such as blacks) or else fucking them to merge genes. Women's drive is to interconnect the species genetically so nobody has a strong evolutionary interest in her demise.

 

I hope this gives you some idea of how principles like relatedness apply in a fractal. Women get inserted by the man and physically overlap with him in identity (one flesh), the back and forth ambiguity of who "owns" who (penetration vs containment are each standards of property ownership), and then women overlap with the fetus. Women are related, they overlap, they transcend identity, they propagate life across the generations.

 

It's not just that women are good at interpersonally relating to others in a social way. Women excel at relatedness, the essence, in various domains. The most preferred woman is the one who is closest to the population average (beautiful is most related to all others), while the most preferred man is based on non-physical criteria, and not relation, but superiority.

 

Really the key to understanding all this is to see that principles shift and shimmer in different domains, while the essence is conserved. The essence appearance is modified by the context.

 

My own perspective is that deeper knowledge has been hidden in allegories like alchemy because they can't be relayed across the centuries without robust daily life anchors. I don't think alchemy is about what we think of as fire, water, air, earth. To me, alchemy is more like the stoned hippie who says "everything's connected man".

 

To be part of reality we must interface with it in some way. We must connect to it by some essence of similarity. Everything IS connected. Christopher Langan uses a word "syndiffeonesis" to describe how things must have a quality of similarity, and a quality of difference (not be same object), to interact in reality. If a part of space-time ceases to share a boundary with the known universe, it stops being part of reality, and loses empiric quality.

 

Connection is what defines being part of reality. Water represents the feminine aspect. Women are good at connection. The primordial substance is called water in the Bible.

[Andrejs Matjola]

To original poster RichardY

Please model Stefan in the pursuit of facts. Your story turns into fantasy really fast. God asked for a sacrifice and Cain brought the wrong thing. I bet Stefan would point that out if he were to read your post. Sacrifice of lamb was a shadow pointing to the sacrifice of the Messiah that would be offered by God.

I will leave you with this. The story of Cain and Abel describes what will happen in the latter days. There will be two groups both claiming to worship God, but one does it as they see fit. The one in error will rise and use violence against the one who worships according to God's will.