Libertarianism is not an ideology

[cyberforester]

I was involved in an online discussion about socialism versus libertarianism and the free market.   Someone suggested they are competing ideologies.

I pondered this a while and wondered if that is actually the case.

Until Marx and Engels, libertarianism was just REALITY.   It was what the common man perceived as cause and effect.   What socialism needed was to portray alternative viewpoints as just another version of a reality they conceived of.   So they portray socialism and libertarianism as ideological possibilities.  Except one of them is a myth and the other a reality.

What do others think?

[ofd]

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Until Marx and Engels, libertarianism was just REALITY.

Where? The state always meddled with the economy.

 

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So they portray socialism and libertarianism as ideological possibilities.

Marx never spoke of Libertarianism. He claimed that Capitalism is a stepping for sociaslism since there are 'internal contradictions' in Capitalism. When companies compete via the marginal cost of production, the return of investment will eventually go down. This in combination with high unemployment in late stage capitalism will cause socialism to rise up. Once the internal contradictions of Socialism will show up you'll get Communism.

[RichardY]

A few points  came to mind. But, I think the meat would be in figuring out exactly what Libertarianism is. "The Goal of Socialism is Communism" - Lenin and Marx

 

Economical

Marginal cost of production. Adam Smith.        Classical Liberalism.

Marginal Utility. Carl Menger.                            Austrian Economics, Libertarianism.

Labor Theory of Value. Karl Marx.                    Communism.

Socialism

This person that the proletariat has "decided/been inspired by" is the most enlightened/fully conscious therefore they should set the rules provide guidance and authority, so that True Communism can eventually be achieved, for the good of everyone. (Seniority Based).

Libertarianism

Much more fragmented than socialism imo. Disputes between, Minarchists(Nightwatchmen), Left Libertarians (Libertines, ultimately communists imo), Right Libertarians(Traditionalists), and Anarcho Capitalists (No rulers of Capital.). OR just Ethics.

Much of the debate seems to hinge on how Law and Order would be enforced, who's going to be the hangman or not. In addition will China invade Red Dawn style. A point Stefan has made is "how will the cotton be picked if slavery is abolished". "doesn't matter, what matters is whether it is moral." "If you want to stop slavery stop catching them".

Looking at the term Libertarianism on Wikipedia. It was first recorded use was by William Belsham, who was associated with the Whig Faction in Great Britain. Seems to also be associated with Judges kind of interesting, apart from 18th Century Britain, Judge Dredd comes to mind. The founding of Israel in addition. I have read 2nd hand somewhere of Stefan suggesting the use of private dispute resolution services. Maybe the degree of responsibility involved in Libertarianism is truly horrifying to comprehend to many and hence Utopian Communism looks more pleasing, though it results frequently in Hell,  Not an Argument, but seems true enough.

 

Psychological

Collective Conscious from Unconsciousness.(Socialists, "Enlightened") Communism. State of Perfection. Deterministic. No Responsibility.

Collective Unconscious.(Carl Jung) Individualism. Freewill and Determinism. Responsibility.

Subconscious, Full Consciousness.(Ayn Rand) Pure Freewill, Ultimate Responsibility.

[ofd]

There is a useful distinction between ideology and view of the world (Weltanschauung). You can have the same view of the world (materialism) and yet have different ideologies such as Communism or Capitalism. The key difference is not the interpretation of the world but rather the question who should or shouldn't rule which is ideological.

[RichardY]

Monism (One Substance) - Physicalism/Materialism(Magic Meat). - . Nietzschean Will to Power. No Ethics

                                         - Mind/Spirit (Pantheism) - Everything is connected to God and he's jacking himself off for kicks and giggles. No Ethics.

                                         - Pragmatism (Psychological Pluralism) - Magic meat, but since everyone acts as though they are a moral entity, even if                                            it is a construction, that's enough for Ethics, even if it is a meme. Which makes me think, should anyone without                                                    a particular in group preference meme be killed as the most rational choice?

 

Dualism - Can not refute God being everything(In this case Pantheism, Infinity) or everything being just Matter(Finite). So I'll accept both. "I think therefore I am". Having an "I" results in an infinite regress, from the Brain in a tank scenario. However, as the I is a fabrication of the unconscious mind(The ID) in my opinion, psychologically this leads to an interplay with the unconscious and conscious mind, a psychological  Dualism. Alternatively perhaps there is some sort of Leibinzian Monadology going on with people being a physical projection of the thing in itself which in this case is God. 

 

17 hours ago, ofd said:

There is a useful distinction between ideology and view of the world (Weltanschauung). You can have the same view of the world (materialism) and yet have different ideologies such as Communism or Capitalism. The key difference is not the interpretation of the world but rather the question who should or shouldn't rule which is ideological.

So in Capitalism "he who has the Gold makes the rules.". In Communism(Inevitable according to Marx)there is not to be any rulers eventually, which is why you have different forms of Socialism (An Enlightened Dictatorship for the Proletariat). In Libertarianism, would the rulers effectively be Judges, Sheriffs or Vigilantes?

[ofd]

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In Communism(Inevitable according to Marx)there is not to be any rulers eventually, which is why you have different forms of Socialism (An Enlightened Dictatorship for the Proletariat).

Communism is anarchist by the description that Marx gives in the Communist Manifesto. It is preceded by Socialism which will fall because of its internal contradictions and then lead to Communism where there are no classes and no struggles. In reality, Socialism inevitably leads to rightwingish anti-Communist regimes (Belarus, North Korea).

 

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In Libertarianism, would the rulers effectively be Judges, Sheriffs or Vigilantes?

Multinational corporations, city states, leaders of ethnical or cultural groups (See Diamond Age for details).