Need advice on how to deal with bad social exposure around my son

[Kimmen]

Hey,

I find myself on a position where my son (7) year old, is having bad social exposure around particularly one kid, we can call him Bob. Bob is also (7) years old and is going in the same class as my son at school. Bob's dad, is also one of the coaches in my son's soccer practices where Bob also attends. Bob lives 80 meter's away from my son and is practically a neighbor here on the block. There are 4 kids in total in this neighborhood that is around my son's age. We can call the rest (Max 6 years old and John 7 years old). I believe it is significant to mention how small this group is and that it is in general very difficult to exile one of the boys from the group duo to his behavior. John is my son's best friend and his mom is a good friend of my wife. John, like Bob, is also in the same class as my son at school. Max is one year younger and is starting school now in 1st grade. Max is living in a family where the parents are divorced and where his dad has the main custody, Max also lives with his mom and i believe that they are currently trying out 50/50 split custody now as of recent, which means he is not always around. My family has a christian upbringing and my wife is actively involved with the religious community and so is John and his family. My son will often meet John in our congregation and John's grandmother is my son's grandmother's neighbor too. Safe to say, John and my son spend alot of time with eachother. John has very good behavior, he respects his parents and other adults and i have never heared John swear. So i encourage my son to spend time with John and i let my son invite John into our home so they can play inside on occasion. 

We extended this arrangement to Bob aswell, but keep having issues with him. The problems we run into are extremely rude behavior which sometimes our son is copying. When Bob and my son are together, they both end up acting bad. The bad behavior is showing the middle finger to other kids and adults, yelling and swearing, cursing other kids and adults. Terrorizing our neighborhood with knocking on the door and ringing the doorbell's only to run away. My son has started to lie to us alot and i have observed that Bob bully's our son with rude hurtful words and sometimes hitting him, especially when Bob has visitors. John's parents are experiencing similar issues when Bob is over at John's place with my son. We are scared to talk with Bob's parents as they seem extremely protective of their son and makes alot of excuses for his behavior. We are scared to instruct our kids to stop being with Bob, because if Bob tells his parents that we have said that, then they are likely involve the school in these matters, which the school really do not have any business getting involved with. There are also the fear of Bob's dad treating my son differently on soccer practice if Bob and my son don't get along etc. 

Bob is doing whatever he wants and dont seem to have any structure around him. He is out very late in the evening, his parents leaves Bob alone in the house unattended and sometimes with is older step sister. Bob hurt himself one day, falling of his bike, instead of going home to his parents, he came to me for help, so i cleaned his wounds and told him to go home. Bob recently got a brother, so his mom is taking care of the baby alot, but i can see Bob is not happy with it. Bob's dad seems like a tough guy, but i cant say for sure how they are, only what i see around my son. I was bullied alot back in school and i do not want my son to go trough that. I do not wish war with Bob and his family and i try to avoid them as much as i can. I try my best to give my son positive exposure and with John, my son behave very well, so John is a good influence as Bob is the very opposite. Before Bob got into our life, my son was doing very well and behaved well. What can i as a parent do, to stop this from becoming a future disaster?

[Tyler H]

Does your son want to be around Bob? Does he often prefer Bob over John? 

[Kimmen]

My son prefers to play with John and seems to only be around Bob when John isn't available. My son have told us several times how Bob is being a jerk to him, but still can't say no to Bob. So it seems inconsistent from my son to complain about how Bob treats him and say that he does not want to be around him no more, when he agrees to come out and play when Bob shows up at our door.

[neeeel]

1 hour ago, Kimmen said:

My son prefers to play with John and seems to only be around Bob when John isn't available. My son have told us several times how Bob is being a jerk to him, but still can't say no to Bob. So it seems inconsistent from my son to complain about how Bob treats him and say that he does not want to be around him no more, when he agrees to come out and play when Bob shows up at our door.

What does it mean that he "cant so no to bob". He wants to say no but cant? Or he doesnt want to, but isnt that happy with bobs behaviour towards him either. 

[NAPParenting]

Quote

 

We are scared to talk with Bob's parents as they seem extremely protective of their son and makes alot of excuses for his behavior. We are scared to instruct our kids to stop being with Bob, because if Bob tells his parents that we have said that, then they are likely involve the school in these matters, which the school really do not have any business getting involved with. There are also the fear of Bob's dad treating my son differently on soccer practice if Bob and my son don't get along etc. 

I was bullied alot back in school and i do not want my son to go trough that. I do not wish war with Bob and his family and i try to avoid them as much as i can. 

 

The exposure does need to stop. Have you come to the same conclusion? 

I think the fact that you're scared to talk to Bob's parents is very important. That fact alone would indicate to me that your kids shouldn't be hanging out. You're letting a man whom you're afraid of coach your son. By avoiding Bob's parents, you're modeling that behavior to your son. And I think that's exactly how you would "pass-down" your tendency to be bullied to your son (you've said it's already showing up with Bob). He would be mirroring your passivity and conflict-avoidance with aggressive, scary people. 

I'd be scared to talk to those parents too, it's never a fun conversation, and you're not crazy for assuming it might "cause a war" so to speak. They could yell at you, they could involve the school (although I'm not sure how that hurts you), and they could have revenge on the soccer field. All the more reason to get clear about what to expect, what you want, and plan and rehearse how you're going to get it.

I think it's important to model a more proactive, assertive position here, and if you've been a victim of bullying, maybe that doesn't come naturally to you. So practice! Figure out exactly what it is that you want from this situation. (Don't assume you're going to be able to change these people). If you're going to have a discussion with them, figure out the few bullet points you want to get across, pick a time and place, and do it. If they want to get ugly about it, that's their choice, and will give you yet another reason to cut them out. In my experience, confronting bullies is usually a lot less scary than I imagine it will be, and is usually sufficient to get them to back down. So the message could simply be "We don't like this influence, we don't want our son to be around yours." and if you're feeling neighborly/generous you could offer to help them with their troubles. 

Standing up for your son this way, you can think of it as your chance to redo your own childhood, and use your experience to shield him from the damaging relationships you suffered with. What do you wish your parents did for your when you were a kid? 

[Spenc]

On 9/2/2017 at 1:05 PM, Kimmen said:

My son prefers to play with John and seems to only be around Bob when John isn't available. My son have told us several times how Bob is being a jerk to him, but still can't say no to Bob. So it seems inconsistent from my son to complain about how Bob treats him and say that he does not want to be around him no more, when he agrees to come out and play when Bob shows up at our door.

Wat does your son think of going to school and sitting through each class and respecting his teachers and elders and parents all the time?  What does your son think of sitting through church services and being stuck in religious instruction and activities?  How does he like doing soccer practice and having multiple weekly commitments on his limited free time? 

If he's used to being forced to do things that are boring or undesired on a regular basis, and being compliant, I wouldn't say it is an inconsistent behaviour for him to play with Bob even though Bob is a bit of an asshole. 

[Stacey Krech]

I understand your issue.  We had a similar experience with my son when he was young with a neighbor boy who was a very bad influence.  Look up Jordan B Peterson and his talks on the "Agreeableness" trait.  I would guess both you and your son have a personality that is high in "agreeableness"?  It appears in my life experience that a domineering strong personalty smells out the agreeable ones pretty quick.  Your son enjoys making others happy and having friends.  He doesn't want to say "no".  Maybe he likes some strength he sees in a "Bob" type and wants to mimic it.  I don't know.   All I know is my son is agreeable...he likes people, is naturally very trusting, loving, friendly, and compassionate.   It makes him an awesome spirit, but he got taken advantage of a great deal.  Now at 14, he has learned this about himself and how to grow in personal strength and protect himself.  The words of the Oracle at Delphi:  "Know thyself".  We talked with our son, helping him see how he was, where he was responsible for his own behavior, how others see him, and to decide how he wants to be in the world.  Plus, how to say "no" and be mentally strong without becoming a jerk.  Putting our son in Karate classes helped too.  It gave him confidence and a way to play out that strength he craved in a healthy way.

I would restrict his play with Bob to when there is direct supervision by you or your wife.  Could that be uncomfortable?  Sure.  Do it in small increments then.  Use a scalpel not an axe.   Think on who's happiness is more important; your family's or Bob's? 

You are raising a future man.  How would you want that man to be?  Too agreeable and scared?  

Mostly I would talk with your son about himself, his possible weaknesses, and ask him who he wants to be...when he likes himself the best.  The world is full of "Bobs".  Teach him how to deal with them.

[barn]

Just reading here... but I really like your approach @Stacey Krech

I also noticed, (seen it play out) when I'm around the less disagreeable, they're being drawn to the confidence of the 'blunt & loud'. Had been going circles to make the children more 'independent and critical', usually with little success as they fear the negative consequences of the bad influencers(logical, if you'd seen that at home).

In a controlled setting, surely they can be shown, how to stand up against those aiming to overrule. The problem is when they are 'out' and the positive reinforcements are far, few & in-between. (parents' lack of involvement technically acts as sabotage, sizzling out efforts for individuality... It DOES rest on the shoulders of whomever runs the home, teaching the 'tribe's survival strategies' )

I remembered when Stefan Molyneux would share snippets of his conversations with his child. When he'd be asked about his mother by his child and why he doesn't want to see her. (the child had never met the grandmother I suppose) He then would proceed, asking the child if she'd be willing to visit kids she had had a negative experience beforehand. The outcome was obvious, to us listeners perhaps self-explanatory.

I thought, that was really well graded to the understanding of the child, plus it illustrated philosophy 1to1 with the potential to strengthen the child's decision making process. And then I recalled how you can't will authority over others. Only with reason & evidence will people choose to trust you and then it's easier to say stuff like: 'You remember what we talked about..., that's why I don't think it is good if you do x, y... What do you think about that?' Not as a way to scolde, instead trying to get a conversation going on, as much as possible.

Barnsley

Edited March 1, 2018 by barn
oops, 'un-murk-ed' now.

[Kimmen]

Thanks for the comments i got here. My wife and I, decided to sit our son down and talk to him about the influence this kid on my sons behaviors and the consequences my son suffered from it. Much like Stacey did with her 14 year old. We also took your advice on restricting our son's access to this child and today there's hardly any contact. My son is avoiding Bob, and is now doing much better here at home and at school. I used my own experience from the past and i tried my best to explain to him how Bob's influence is affecting his own behavior. To my surprise, my son had already thought about the things we discussed that evening and agreed that Bob is a kid to currently stay away from. 

@spenc
 

On 19.9.2017 at 5:51 AM, Spenc said:

If he's used to being forced to do things that are boring or undesired on a regular basis, and being compliant, I wouldn't say it is an inconsistent behaviour for him to play with Bob even though Bob is a bit of an asshole.

My son is not forced to do anything. Soccer practice is my son's own choice. Attending religious meetings is also totally volunteer, as my wife and i have an agreement around that topic, to never force our children to go if they refuse too, which has happen several times, and when it does, they stay with me. School is mandatory where i live, but my son has never said that he hates being there. If he did, all alarms in my head would go off and i would help in any way i can. I do not believe in forcing anyone to do anything, it has to come from them, all i can do, is provide the tools they need to figure things out on their own, and encourage discussion on any subject.

[neeeel]

.

[barn]

6 hours ago, Kimmen said:

Thanks for the comments i got here. My wife and I, decided to sit our son down and talk to him about the influence this kid on my sons behaviors and the consequences my son suffered from it. Much like Stacey did with her 14 year old. We also took your advice on restricting our son's access to this child and today there's hardly any contact. My son is avoiding Bob, and is now doing much better here at home and at school. I used my own experience from the past and i tried my best to explain to him how Bob's influence is affecting his own behavior. To my surprise, my son had already thought about the things we discussed that evening and agreed that Bob is a kid to currently stay away from. 

This is touching stuff.

Thank you,...

good for you,...

good for him.

I hope, any dialogues in the future will be easier to have.

6 hours ago, Kimmen said:

My son is not forced to do anything. Soccer practice is my son's own choice. Attending religious meetings is also totally volunteer, as my wife and i have an agreement around that topic, to never force our children to go if they refuse too, which has happen several times, and when it does, they stay with me. School is mandatory where i live, but my son has never said that he hates being there. If he did, all alarms in my head would go off and i would help in any way i can. I do not believe in forcing anyone to do anything, it has to come from them, all i can do, is provide the tools they need to figure things out on their own, and encourage discussion on any subject.

Massive thumbs up for keeping an open attitude towards negotiations!!!

I'm almost tempted to move there myself.