Marco Posted September 9, 2017 Posted September 9, 2017 Hello everybody, I'm curious what you think about this issue. A friend of mine (not me) is currently in a third world country and has to do a visa run (a stupid bureaucratic thing in itself already). It's very common to give 5$ more lest the officials let you wait for a couple of hours while you are anxiously waiting and worrying if they will approve the visa or not. Many people told my friend that he should give the "coffee money" to make things easier. On the one hand, there might be a moral problem with giving money to corrupt officials because it rewards bad behavior and gives even more money to government officials, it's probably illegal, though never enforced, (we are talking about my friend here, I would never do such a thing) but on the other hand if it was not a moral issue, my friend would happily pay 5$ for less stress and saving time my friend is already very anxious about essentially being at the mercy of the officials when in Rome, do as the Romans do - it's the responsibility of the citizens to fix their country refusing to pay would have little impact on corruption as with the grey and black market, corruption is sometimes the only thing that keeps things running in an authoritarian system - maybe it's good that you can get everything you want with enough cash Please let me know what you think!
Drew. Posted September 9, 2017 Posted September 9, 2017 If he is not initiating force against another person, then it is not immoral. Those governments are the ones initiating force. You could argue that taxes are a bribe to keep the government from seizing your property and throwing you in jail. Tell your friend to smile, be polite, and be white! That worked for me in Asia.
Wuzzums Posted September 10, 2017 Posted September 10, 2017 I come from a country where that sort of thing is just daily routine. It's true what they say about Eastern European and ex-Soviet countries, how people from those places are very prone to white collar types of crime. Because the former regime was so oppressive and inefficient and because you needed to spend weeks in bureaucratic hell to do anything "by the book" people learned how to hustle. The whole system works on hustling (more or less). Most people are state employees so there's no such concept of "getting paid for good service". The employees get paid the same whether they do a good job or no job at all. Therefore they expect a little "extra" as an incentive to do a good job. Now from a legal standpoint there are a ton of ways to circumnavigate the act of bribery per se: If they receive the bribe after the fact then it is not classified as a bribe. If they receive the bribe before and did not solicit it then it is not classified as a bribe. If one gives a bribe and the other takes the bribe both parties are guilty. If the giver of the bribe gets caught they can just play stupid and pretend they thought they had to pay after which they will get a receipt, bla, bla. Or he could just play the "I'm a foreigner and this is just common courtesy in my country lol" card. Nobody's gonna arrest anybody over 5$. This is the reason why the bribes are so small. If it were 500$ then a third party would gladly come into the mix maybe to even get his "cut" in order to turn a blind eye. A bribe soliciting something illegal is a serious crime and it's usually prosecuted. A bribe soliciting that the state official does his job is petty crime and the official is the guilty party. If the 5$ come in the form of a gift like a box of chocolates, alcohol or whatever then it is not considered a bribe. Also, standing in line with a large bouquet of flowers might signal to some willing to be bribed teller that you're willing to bribe them with said bouquet of flowers. In your friend's case, if he chooses to pay the bribe, why not instead of money just buy the officials involved actual coffee? Plus, receiving good service from a state-employee is an underhanded way of them telling you that they're expecting something in return. Kinda like a waiter at a restaurant.
M.2 Posted September 11, 2017 Posted September 11, 2017 What I learned from my parents is that there is a time to demonstrate your virtue, and there is a time not to. This may sound kinda pragmatistic, but hear me out... Whenever I had some sort of severe injury or some other urgent problem, like a broken bone for instance my parents would naturally bribe the doctor who could help, because that sped up the process. Other times, when we were under no serious pressure, they would stick to their principles. According to their value system, being honourable was much lower than the health of their children. So your friend should probably ask himself what the prices are for standing by his principles, and if he is willing to bear the costs of getting a dent in his honour. This is for him to judge only, as it his his value system.
smarterthanone Posted September 11, 2017 Posted September 11, 2017 Bribery only works in an absence of all other market forces. - everyone is trying to do visa runs, they all pay the same exact fees etc. so no market forces, the bribe replaces it. Everyone who pays $5 moves to the top of the paperwork stack as if they had just purchased a higher VIP experience from the beginning. - one purchaser picks one supplier for their company, they all offer about the same thing, the one that gives you tickets to the box for the basketball game gets the contract in each example, there are no deciding important market forces any more so it all comes down to personal preference which is a secondary financial gain that has nothing to do with the transaction. In example 1, the government is the direct cause. In example 2, it should be acceptable and moral only if it doesn't harm the company. But, if they chose to advance themselves at the expense of the company they should be fired, so there is definitely an incentive for them to not do it in such a way that it harms. When I had a certain job, we would spend like $10,000 or so on many different companies. The bids would all look the same: $10,000 for 1 million widgets, $10,000 for 1 million widgets etc etc. a big list of that. So whichever company mailed us the most and the best swag gifts got to the top of the list. I don't think I am legally supposed to acknowledge that but whatever.
Dylan Lawrence Moore Posted September 11, 2017 Posted September 11, 2017 Yea, it's not the initiation of the use of force. It's self defense. That's a pretty damn cheap bribe.
Marco Posted September 15, 2017 Author Posted September 15, 2017 Thank you all for your responses! I think I get the general tenor of it. You have helped my friend a lot.
Jsbrads Posted October 15, 2017 Posted October 15, 2017 Wait! If your payment of $5 puts you ahead of a poor farmer who got there first (and doesn't have an extra penny to spare) are you stealing the poor farmer's time?
Tyler H Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 On 9/11/2017 at 7:45 PM, Dylan Lawrence Moore said: Yea, it's not the initiation of the use of force. It's self defense. That's a pretty damn cheap bribe. Reminds me of Meet the Millers lol. Have you seen it?
Dylan Lawrence Moore Posted October 22, 2017 Posted October 22, 2017 On 10/21/2017 at 7:19 AM, Tyler H said: Reminds me of Meet the Millers lol. Have you seen it? Never heard of it. Is it worth watching?
Somewhere Posted October 22, 2017 Posted October 22, 2017 These payments, where you are only paying an official to do their usual job and you are not for example paying them to overlook some irregularity, are known as facilitation payments. Many developed countries automatically treat facilitation payments as bribes, but some developed countries do allow their citizens to make facilitation payments when abroad. There's a list of those countries here that includes USA, Canada, Australia, Austria, Greece, South Korea, New Zealand, Slovak Republic, South Africa, Spain, Switzerland. Treat that list with caution because laws change. I'm not a lawyer, just somebody who took an interest in this subject. In the sub-Saharan African country that I'm familiar with, as I understand it there is no general local law preventing an official from asking for a facilitation payment. This must make it very hard for foreigners to do business there if their country of origin has signed the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention. This in turn perhaps explains some of the relative success of Chinese businesspeople in Africa.
Tyler H Posted October 22, 2017 Posted October 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said: Never heard of it. Is it worth watching? Sorry, we’re the millers. Pretty good relative to what passes for comedy these days.
Dylan Lawrence Moore Posted October 23, 2017 Posted October 23, 2017 OHHHHH yes I did see that. Been awhile, though.
barn Posted November 13, 2017 Posted November 13, 2017 Hi @Marco 1. It's not moral (bribe) can't be just as 'white lies' can't serve a purpose in aiming at greater good...an excuse just it is. 2. I can totally understand why people do it, same as in the sustaining of sub-servient dynamics in less than honest relationships. 3. Having said that, going about it is a different matter (or should be thought through more carefully) a. it's an illusion that anyone gets to change 'the rules of a game' after having been accepted to participate... funny, but it's consistent to expect backlash upon trying. b. not knowing prior to getting into the situation doesn't mean one gets to be excluded from personal responsibility 4. You do what you can to survive in a tough scenario but once you are capable to move on, reproducing the same flawed action clearly states you are not doing your best... to put it gently. 5. poetic question, with sprinkles of sympathy = C'mon maan, a society with a generally low I.Q.!!! - How that got slipped by? How strong a bubble needs to be in order to insulate from the plethora of red flags? Hope I added value, Barnsley
Mole Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 If everyone is secretly using their textbook during an exam, what's fairer? I would say to use the textbook. Anyway, it's not even a moral issue there is no ethics in politics. If bribing is the way it works, then that's the system you have to accept.
barn Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 On 11/26/2017 at 2:04 AM, Mole said: If everyone is secretly using their textbook during an exam, what's fairer? I would say to use the textbook. Anyway, it's not even a moral issue there is no ethics in politics. If bribing is the way it works, then that's the system you have to accept. I would definitely agree with you if you were interested getting over with the course, not learning anything. Barnsley
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