Catalonia attempting to separate from Spain

[Laforge]

Police in Catalonia closes 1000+ voting bureaus in an attempt to block separatist referendum on sunday 01-10-2017

https://www.nu.nl/buitenland/4944380/politie-in-catalonie-sluit-ruim-duizend-stembureaus-referendum.html

https://www.nu.nl/weekend/4942433/buigen-catalanen-repressie-madrid.html

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2017/09/25/spanish-president-asks-trump-oppose-catalonia-independence-referendum/

 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

Interesting stuff, I can't say for sure whether the Catalonians ought to or ought not to have their independence given I know little of their present situation nor whether they'd be better prepared to resist the migrant crisis detached from Madrid or if they're basically sinking their own ship by attempting to build a new one out of the wreckage. 

I think they would probably be better able to institute reforms that satisfy the local population with independence, however governments being governments, I doubt very much that it'd help those Spaniards in the long run. The Castilian rule over Spain has had mixed results throughout history, I can't say for sure that it's a good idea for a race to divide itself politically, but if Spain's in trouble, I can't say it's wrong for a fraction of the Spaniards to cut out a lifeboat to save themselves. 

But then again, they're small and becoming further weakened if they secede, therefore I doubt it's worth it in the long run. Like I doubt Bavarians or Saxons would benefit much in the long run by seceding from Prussian Germany. If it didn't help the Southern Americans to secede from the Northern Americans, why would it help the Catalonians? It is basically the same thing, I think, but with different costumes and accents. 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Siegfried von Walheim

[Laforge]

Yes apart from 'economical reasons' the long winded news articles (as usual) don't succinctly state _why_ they want to separate. What i got from it is they're doing better than the rest of Spain, less unemployment, and therefore they want to keep their relative profits.

As a general rule of thumb in these scenarios i support any separatist movement because smaller and more localized governments are more responsive to their citizens in general. And possibly less manipulation of fiat money.

You raise a good point about their ability to fend off migrants. But I hope simply _not_ giving them money should work sufficiently for them to leave/shop elsewhere.

 

[M.2]

From my perspective, it is the same story of a married couple, with the wife suddenly having a midlife crisis, filing for divorce, and riding off with a biker, all after having used her husband as slave labour for 20 years, and having 5 children with him.

Scotland joined the UK after they had gone bankrupt, and they prospered extremely afterwards. They don't get to cha,nge their mind all of a sudden when the ship hits the fan.
Hungary joined Austria like a damsel in distress clutches on to the knight in shining armour. They don't get to claim independence after the rapist kebabs have been driven out.
Aragonia does not get to file for divorce when the ship starts sinking. They have been piggybacking on Castille for over 500 years. Aragonia was a craphole when they asked Castille for help in driving out the Moors.

On the other hand, the Catalans are all communists, so I guess Castille would be better off without them.

[RichardY]

Catalans speak Catalan which I have been told and heard to some degree, more similar to French(though French people often can't understand, other French speakers too well, huge range in accents). Girona has a nice roman wall that you can walk along and the remains of a fort at the top of a hill. Their in group preference is very high, possibly the highest in Europe, lots of people live together in flats in the cities, as opposed to being spread out throughout the countryside.There are many Catalan communities in the Pyrenees Mountain range in France(possibly because huge numbers of men were killed in WW1, might have been there before then, as well though), funny they also have these ancient beacons on top of the mountains to warn of raids like in the LOTR movie. 

Economically the Capital of Spain Madrid was and is an economic disaster and it's construction contributed to mass starvation throughout Spain . Anyone one see "The Good, The Bad and Ugly"? Well yeah,  it was built in the middle of a semi arid desert. Harsh environments also tend to produce tough men, in someways. 

Galicians (North west Spain, Franco's home region) have a lower in group preference  and swear a lot. They like to make stock of their Gallic and musical heritage, lots of artefacts in the region. When I was in Guimaraes(Portugal, original Capital) They had lots of Gallic artefacts, a Sarcophagus(previously used to make "green soup"), very detailed stone pillars and an Idol to human sacrifice which I found funny (burst out laughing, a girl giving me a tour though thought  I was laughing at her accent, was highly insulted). Lot of Germans in the Far south of Portugal like 50% in some places. 

 

[SnapSlav]

Major motivations can be attributed to Europeans, in general, seeing through the filter of ethnicity. Borders are a matter of race, historically, not ideas or alliance, or who-won-what-battle. Scotts don't want their own country because they think they have anything to gain from being a separate country up in the North without much chance of having any halfway decent economy. They want their own country because they're not English. The Russians in the Crimean peninsula didn't want to secede from Ukraine and join Russia because they didn't like they politics, they did it because they were racially Russian, and not Ukrainian. Catalans are also very ethnic-distinction-minded and by and large make the distinction whenever possible. They may benefit from having more localized control with a smaller local government. They may benefit from having a better economy that isn't shackled to a "sinking ship". But really, all that doesn't matter nearly so much to them as "we're not Spaniards" does.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

2 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

From my perspective, it is the same story of a married couple, with the wife suddenly having a midlife crisis, filing for divorce, and riding off with a biker, all after having used her husband as slave labour for 20 years, and having 5 children with him.

Scotland joined the UK after they had gone bankrupt, and they prospered extremely afterwards. They don't get to cha,nge their mind all of a sudden when the ship hits the fan.
Hungary joined Austria like a damsel in distress clutches on to the knight in shining armour. They don't get to claim independence after the rapist kebabs have been driven out.
Aragonia does not get to file for divorce when the ship starts sinking. They have been piggybacking on Castille for over 500 years. Aragonia was a craphole when they asked Castille for help in driving out the Moors.

On the other hand, the Catalans are all communists, so I guess Castille would be better off without them.

I am tempted to agree with you. However I think the older the contract, the less validity it has since all contracts are meant to be (or at least have to be in order to be fair and relevant) re-addressed and re-made on some regular basis.

The American constitution was made to be thrown out after 20 years, and was originally intended to be continuously changing and evolving to suit the demands of the educated and landed peoples, with the assumption of course that those same peoples would retain their WASP and Christian values. 

However I think the Catalans greatly lose from seceding in the long run, since I think it'd be better for them to get over their minor ethnic differences from the Catillians and instead evolve with them as fellow Spaniards and follow ideals and values over mere blood ties.

[Jsbrads]

There is a simple compromise the locals will accept.

establish a dependent state which still funds a "Federal" government. Allow more independence on internal workings of the state. Stop trying to rob the Catalans blind to fund "Welfare" transfer payments to poor people in other areas of the country. 

Goes without saying, the central government would never allow it. 

[RichardY]

There are significant Ethnic and cultural Differences in Spain.

Northwest Galicia: Animal sacrifice, tie and suspend  Pigs up at Xmas time, cut the pig's throat and make a blood sausage. Rains a lot. Dilapidated buildings and many aggressive dogs. Speak Galician. Celtic culture. Franco. K-Selected. Potentially Hyper violent, take more than fluffy  bunnies to hold the Berbers back, unless its the white rabbit from the Holy Grail. 

North Castile & Leon: Don't know much about the region. Pretty Arid in some areas, though you have greener pastures near the mountains.

North East Basques, significant independence movement, but I think they were bought off. Like Cider. Basque Language I've heard is radically different from many languages in Europe lots of X's in the Language. ETA. 

East Catalonia: Very high in group preference r-selected, economic pressure raising conscientiousness perhaps. leading to K-selection maybe?

South: Don't know much about the region. Although there is likely massive income from the real estate market. I think the North being John Galt ville and the South being parasitical is not accurate, the architecture is apparently superior in some areas, though maybe that's just the major buildings. Plus a lot of people bring money into the region criminal or otherwise. Many of the moors were in addition Christians driven out from North Africa and not retarded on welfare

Guardia Civil: Very well paid relative to other opportunities, plus many perks. Barracked. Tough. Highly conscientious. Probably draw a lot of recruits from North and Northwest. Told a farmer in Portugal that people would often volunteer to be Special Constables in the UK, was shocked that people would do it without pay. Literally zero police in some parts of the UK at times, same with Norway. (Powder keg cities) 

[saebel]

I have exposed Some thoughs about Cataluña, where I explain this whole issue is intended to give more power to the State, to the Catalan Goverment that rules over the Spanish State that is in Catalonia. Is a fascist movement, not a freedom movement. Don´t let the massive manifestations fool you, we remember Germans supporting Nazi Party.

What is happening in Catalonia doesn´t pass the UPB exam. I know UPB is meant to individuals, but I think is pretty convenient to apply it in this case:

Argument: We can only accept that a tiny group of people decide in the name of the whole group only if they obtain the 51% respect the whole group. Otherwise, every tiny group would intend to have the power to decide, and that is a neverending story, an absurd.

Also, Separatist parties tell they have the right to decide the secession of a territory of Spain, where they live, but doing so they are deciding over the rest of Spaniards to secede the rest of Spain from Catalonia. It´s nuts. Rest of spaniards are losing rights over Catalonia because separatists, and only they, say so. And they would condemn the non-separatists Catalans to lose rights over the rest of Spain too.

I could accept a referendum to separate Catalonia from the rest of Spain, but  1)  it has to be held in the whole territory, 2) the result has to be the same in one side, in the other side and in the whole  3) it has to be held to prevent a imminent CW 4) its (previous) approval has to be done legally.

Even doing this way, would be a tremendous economic loss to all the citizens, and that should make us ask if is it moral to decide something so prejudicial to the whole.

Laws are meant to defend the majority rights over the minority´s.

Constitutions are meant to defend the individual rights over the whole´s.

 

 

 

[barn]

Hello to all readers,

 

1. Arguing the validity of a vote or the current regulations of the burocratic stranglehold doesn't make much sense from the perspective of a long running movement since it's destined to be reformulated and those who are against it will find a way always to bend it. Heavy handed, uni-lateral decisions only further strengthen future retaliation, making it ever more difficult to "get every parties gather around the round table". Only scarred, narrow-minded people act without proper negotiations. Therfore: 'pay me now or pay me later but you will pay me'.

 

2. The attitude of the Spanish governance in respect of bowing before the will of its citizens can be observed clearly not to be for the betterment in general. My line of thinking comes from looking at how scandals(corruption on the rise, steadily) and priority issues (getting the economy back onto track by supporting the 'producing' class, easing up on restrictions, relying less on the EU... etc) have been handled since the 2008 crisis. The picture is not pretty or encouraging going forward, at all. It isn't surprising to see nationalistic tendencies on either side. In short: What do people with unearned power want? (not less of it, nor owning up to previous mistakes that's observable)

 

3. Madrid is doing everything to get the 'Jeenie back into the lamp'(pretend that after Franco Cataluna magically forgot the freedoms it had prior to its occupation), heck they might succeed with force. Temporarily. At great costs. Inducing a far stronger surprise down the path. Sure, the international opinion is supportive of the Catalans but to make a transition, allies are a must. I don't see many. Will it be down to the undoubtedly adamant in group preference of the freedom seekers? If you ask me, yes it will unfortunately.

Pointers:

- The most resolute gets to write the history books.

- Madrid is loosing the international opinion quickly.

- Catalans are high I.Q. ,strong in group preference, proud people.

- Spaniards living in Cataluna are little to none being active when it's time to voice their counter opinions(numbers speak for themselves, passivity and staying quiet is an indication, a preference to submission = sheep) ... Why assume that the majority of Spanish are genuinely different elsewhere?

 

- What the situation also demonstrates to the Spanish is that a community can and does take matters into its own hands. Political/interest groups (largely familiar ties everywhere here in Spain, almost the same as before Franco) must be already preparing for contingencies, as people awakening and learning of their strength is NOT going to be desirable for them. 'Once an elephant learns that the thin rope that restrained its movement during INFANCY , can be snapped effortlessly once in ADULTHOOD(awakening) ...Spain is going to have more than just a freedom seeking region amongst its major worries and it's all downhill from there. Too quickly. 

Barnsley

[Carlos]

On 2/10/2017 at 1:19 AM, Laforge said:

Yes apart from 'economical reasons' the long winded news articles (as usual) don't succinctly state _why_ they want to separate. What i got from it is they're doing better than the rest of Spain, less unemployment, and therefore they want to keep their relative profits.

As a general rule of thumb in these scenarios i support any separatist movement because smaller and more localized governments are more responsive to their citizens in general. And possibly less manipulation of fiat money.

You raise a good point about their ability to fend off migrants. But I hope simply _not_ giving them money should work sufficiently for them to leave/shop elsewhere.

 

Hello,

The Catalonian secessionists themselves don't clearly state why they want independence. The catchphrase "Spain is stealing from us" is one of their strongest points, but they avoid debating this in public because it's full of fallacies. Otherwise, it's one of the most prosperous regions of Spain, very industrialized and the Catalonians are definately an innovative and intelligent people. But they are not ethnically different nor significantly culturally distinct from other Iberian regions, and their economy depends largely on exports to Spain and the trade between Spain and France that goes through Catalonia.  They are not more exploited, taxed or oppressed than any other Spaniard or EU citizen for that matter. In fact, it's probably one of the best parts of Western Europe to live in all things considered. The underlying motives for secession are more likely to do with creating a strong centralized state free from Spanish intervention, perhaps part of the region to become a tax-haven and to severely damage Spain's economy. Of course, this is just speculation on my part. Once independent we'll see how they treat those regions within Catalonia that will want their own regional independence or to reunite with Spain. This will certainly happen.

About immigration: Spain isn't much of a migrant destination as compared to France, Germany or the UK. Welfare for immigrants is limited in quantity and time as far as I can tell. Catalonia seemingly favours Muslim immigration over spanish speaking Latinos because Arab and Urdu speakers will prefer to learn Catalonian than Spanish and so fully integrate. I'm not sure this is true, but that's what I've heard and I've seen a ton of Pakistani, Senegalese and Morrocan immigrants in Catalonian towns and farms. 

If anything, the Catalonians want Spain to take in more immigrants and refugees. Take for example this march in February 2017:

 " More than 160,000 march in Barcelona to demand Spain takes in more refugees "

Nothing is as it seems, only critical thinking can save the West.

[Laforge]

Spain's government revenues would suffer for sure. Not necessarily their economy, depending how the government would react. Trade among Spain and Catalonia should be able to continue. But probably with less forced wealth transfer/taxing in Catalonia.

Unfortunately currently it is not difficult to find 160000 people in any country who are leftist, multi culturalist or pathologically altruist. My guess is that most of those people won't suffer strong competition on the job market from 'refugees'.

On 11/5/2017 at 6:37 PM, Carlos said:

They are not more exploited, taxed or oppressed than any other Spaniard or EU citizen for that matter.

Many full-time working EU citizens are taxed at a greater percentage of their income than the average slave throughout history. If Catalonia becomes a tax haven then it will likely become very unfriendly toward people who don't work productively or migrants. And I'll definitely consider moving there.
 

[ofd]

Quote

Many full-time working EU citizens are taxed at a greater percentage of their income than the average slave throughout history.

How much income did an average slave have throughout history?

[barn]

Ofd, hi there!

Don't mean to troll, but to my knowledge no slave lived that long.

 

Any chance you could ask a question rather narrower on the time frame and perhaps location / empire - kingdom - area specific?

 

Have you seen Stefan's (and Michael's) fascinating and eerily thought-provoking presentation on 'The Fall of Rome'?

 

Barnsley

[Laforge]

1 hour ago, ofd said:

How much income did an average slave have throughout history?

That question is well answered in the first 5 minutes of this video: The Death Of Kindness

 

[ofd]

Quote

That question is well answered in the first 5

It's not. An income tax rate of 35% does not mean that you pay 35% on your income, it refers to the income tax bracket. In reality you pay about 25%. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/taxbracket.asp

Furthermore, there is no reference provided for the data on slaves.

Owning slaves must have been economically beneficial for slave owners. That means, the price for a slave, plus the housing and the food must have been less than hiring a free person for doing the same job. When you hire unskilled labour, the minimum wage you pay has to keep the person alive, or else there would be no incentive in working at all.
Furthermore, employing a free person on a farm in the 1850s US included the board plus the wages, as you can see here https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=miun.ajb5449.0001.001;view=1up;seq=164

[ofd]

Quote

Have you seen Stefan's (and Michael's) fascinating and eerily thought-provoking presentation on 'The Fall of Rome'?

Yes, I have. It misses some important points, like the latifundia and their role in the downfall.

Quote

Any chance you could ask a question rather narrower on the time frame and perhaps location / empire - kingdom - area specific?

Lets pick the 1850s US, there is data available for the costs of living, wages, and slave prices.

[barn]

Hi Ofd,

I'm not sure why you'd ask if there's data out. (internet-kung fu)

I won't be able to answer your question but curious if/when anyone does.

 

Barnsley

[Carlos]

On 7/11/2017 at 9:35 AM, Laforge said:

Trade among Spain and Catalonia should be able to continue. But probably with less forced wealth transfer/taxing in Catalonia.

 

All taxes are forced wealth transfers, right? Catalonians are still going to be paying taxes one way or the other. The only difference is that now they don't get Spain interefering, for good or bad, in their local goverment. This is very convenient for a handful of very well-off Catalonian politicians.

 

On 7/11/2017 at 9:35 AM, Laforge said:

Many full-time working EU citizens are taxed at a greater percentage of their income than the average slave throughout history. If Catalonia becomes a tax haven then it will likely become very unfriendly toward people who don't work productively or migrants. And I'll definitely consider moving there.
 

I'm not sure the average slave or serf would have a wage worth mentioning, let alone taxing. 

London is a tax haven, isn't it? So how unfriendly a place is London to not-so-productive people or migrants? 

[barn]

And the next logical step follows...

Thousands and thousands of people participating in the protest (the estimate of the city's law keepers is around 750 K people max)

Catalans on the streets of Barcelona

Barnsley

[RichardY]

"Work Will set the Catalans Free." 

An ancestor of mine opinioned that slavery was legal.  Yorke–Talbot slavery opinion. Not sure how it could be any other way, as Stefan has said "If you want to get rid of slavery stop catching them".

Don't have to provide subsistence living to slaves, could work them to death so they're too weak to put up any resistance, work the marrow out of their bones or something, then bury them in the concrete or foundations. Burma railway, Norway death road, Great wall of China, N.Korea, Saudi Arabia, Salt mines in the Ancient World etc. Have to control communications though. Besides why is there an economic incentive for the motivation to own slaves, perhaps it is the cruelty of those involved. I mean if the "slave owner" rapes the "slaves" and then says, "look but I provide you Bed and Breakfast, oh here some money to get yourself something nice at the market, here's your wage." Is it really a wage?

I remember reading a passage from Von Mises Human Action where he comments on the Industrial Revolution in England and the long working hours and early deaths of the workers and wearing out of ligaments, wasn't necessarily that people lived much longer more that children stopped dying like flies.

[Jsbrads]

I think you have to understand the abject poverty people lived under so few years ago.

We really can't.