Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve?

Gnostic Bishop · October 12, 2017

Scripture are clear. Sin and death entered this world through Adam, and he was thus to blame for original sin.

Yet God rewarded Adam with dominion over Eve even though Eve was not responsible for sin and death entering the world. Gen3:16 and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This shows God continuing the policy of punishing the innocent instead of the guilty that is shown in scriptures. 1Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

God seems to be rewarding Adam for sin while punishing Eve for the events in Eden even though she was innocent of sin as she did not have any evil intent and was deceived by Satan, a force that she could not possibly resist thanks to God giving Satan the power to deceive the whole world after God put Satan in Eden with Eve.

If making man ruler over women that was an error, it would help explain the 5,000 years of war we have had to endure with undeserving men as rulers.

Gnostic Christianity, a Universalist belief system, believes in full equality for all souls. Christianity obviously does not believe in equality if it preaches that men are to perpetually enjoy ruling over women. Not to mention the inequality of gays.

Did God err in making Adam ruler over Eve and thus punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Regards

DL

neeeel · October 12, 2017

God doesnt exist.

If he does exist, Im not sure you can say he makes mistakes

Donnadogsoth · October 12, 2017

How is "God let Demiurge create an evil world to imprison humans in forever"

better than

“God created a world that rebelled against him and required saving”?

ofd · October 13, 2017

Why does Superman go back in time when he turns clockwise around his axis?

Wuzzums · October 13, 2017

I think God err in NOT making Adam ruler over Eve!

[bdum-tsss]

RichardY · October 13, 2017

More men die in War. Genetically generally females win, if world doesn't go up in flames.

Pride is a sin in Catholicism.

If you are humble can you be a "ruler?" My answer would be no, though people may choose to follow your example.

Woolly thoughts: Pride comes from passion. Passion is related to suffering, to act out of passion is to suffer for it later. To act out of suffering is to have passion later? "Forgive them Lord (pride, but kind of cancelled out presumably excruciating PAIN!!!! :devil: ) for they know not what they do (passion)" or Stockholm Syndrome?

She enjoyed eating the fruit didn't she? fruit; from to enjoy. Just had to pay for it with Delhi belly and then some or something.

Equality is by definition boring, would be like near permanent sudden death sport matches with all the players having a heart attack simultaneously. Stale....mate.

Christianity seems to speak more of equity.

1 Peter 1:20

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I think the idea being as Stefan has often said that a large proportion of what he does is influenced, in his case by his mother. Though in the past, more of a caste system with people learning from their father or.. a father figure. The point being that though men or women maybe self-sufficient they are not entirely their own person. If such a thing were possible to not be swayed (egoistically) by another person what would that be like?

RichardY · October 13, 2017

8 hours ago, ofd said:

Why does Superman go back in time when he turns clockwise around his axis?

Random, Random, Random...

To screw his Mother? He never screwed Lois Lane and his father told him not to wind back time, just some BS about non interference in other cultures. The guy after all is "Superman" wears his underpants on the outside, has red boots like a child or Caligula(name means little boots, often wore red boots). "Wonder woman" doesn't exist to him because he is "Superman" and besides he'd just end up shafting "the invisible man." Wouldn't the Why depend on the context and direction of the plot, was listening to a youtube video about Carthesis(explored by Aristotle) and Oedipus(swollen feet). Riddle of the Sphinx(related to time).

Krypton - Cryptic. Becomes drained of power when near home turf.

"Kneel before Zod!!!!(sod)".

Jsbrads · October 24, 2017

Adam isn't granted anything.

Eve loses some of her autonomy because of her actions.

Also none of this is punishment, but consequence. Put your hand in the fire, it gets burnt.

The story is very clear, Eve's desire for the forbidden fruit and her actions created her situation.

much like the snake is compensated for his behavior and Adam for his.

no free lunch, even in Eden.

Gnostic Bishop · November 10, 2017

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:08 PM, neeeel said:

God doesnt exist.

If he does exist, Im not sure you can say he makes mistakes

Stated as a logical fallacy but no argument.

Regards

DL

Gnostic Bishop · November 10, 2017

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 6:43 PM, Donnadogsoth said:

How is "God let Demiurge create an evil world to imprison humans in forever"

better than

“God created a world that rebelled against him and required saving”?

They are both fantasy.

Regards

DL

neeeel · November 10, 2017

2 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

Stated as a logical fallacy but no argument.

Regards

DL

I thought it was the general idea that god was infallible, infinitely good, always right, etc. In which case, that means he cant make mistakes

Not sure what you mean by " no argument"? I suppose I could have been more specific about the above.

Gnostic Bishop · November 10, 2017

On ‎13‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:04 PM, RichardY said:

More men die in War. Genetically generally females win, if world doesn't go up in flames.

Pride is a sin in Catholicism.

Yet God showed pride.

At Jesus' baptism, --- in him, I am well pleased. This is showing pride.

I am proud of my choice of wife and have pride in my kids and family.

I see no sin in that.

Regards

DL

Gnostic Bishop · November 10, 2017

1 hour ago, neeeel said:

I thought it was the general idea that god was infallible, infinitely good, always right, etc. In which case, that means he cant make mistakes

Not sure what you mean by " no argument"? I suppose I could have been more specific about the above.

I meant I would not and could not argue against your idea that a supernatural God does not exist.

As a Gnostic Christian, my God is not supernatural. When I say that the name of God is "I am, I mean me, based on the more Eastern tradition Jesus shows in these quotes.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This expands on that theme.

Regards

DL

Gnostic Bishop · November 10, 2017

On ‎24‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:26 AM, Jsbrads said:

Adam isn't granted anything.

Eve loses some of her autonomy because of her actions.

Also none of this is punishment, but consequence. Put your hand in the fire, it gets burnt.

The story is very clear, Eve's desire for the forbidden fruit and her actions created her situation.

much like the snake is compensated for his behavior and Adam for his.

no free lunch, even in Eden.

Do you recognized what the fruit was in this myth and would you eat of it or follow the command not to eat of it?

Regards

DL

RichardY · November 10, 2017

1 hour ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

Yet God showed pride.

At Jesus' baptism, --- in him, I am well pleased. This is showing pride.

I am proud of my choice of wife and have pride in my kids and family.

I see no sin in that.

Regards

DL

Yeah I don't consider Pride a sin. Hubris, but not pride. It is possible to be proud and humble, often pride gets confused with vanity; which is a lack of pride.

Gnostic Bishop · November 12, 2017

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:50 PM, RichardY said:

Yeah I don't consider Pride a sin. Hubris, but not pride. It is possible to be proud and humble, often pride gets confused with vanity; which is a lack of pride.

I do not see pride quite like you do. To me, it is just stating a subjective fact from the speakers POV.

Pride, in that sense, is not hubris, humble or vanity.

Regards

DL

RichardY · November 12, 2017

3 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

I do not see pride quite like you do. To me, it is just stating a subjective fact from the speakers POV.

Pride, in that sense, is not hubris, humble or vanity.

Regards

DL

So why would you feel pride?

To be clearer I consider hubris a sin. "Vanity is the fear of appearing original: it is thus a lack of pride, but not necessarily a lack of originality." Nietzsche (as often referred to by Stefan)

Gnostic Bishop · November 12, 2017

6 minutes ago, RichardY said:

So why would you feel pride?

To be clearer I consider hubris a sin. "Vanity is the fear of appearing original: it is thus a lack of pride, but not necessarily a lack of originality." Nietzsche (as often referred to by Stefan)

You are getting quite far from the standard dictionary definition.

I am talking pride while you are talking pride in excess and vanity.

Regards

DL

RichardY · November 12, 2017

20 minutes ago, RichardY said:

So why would you feel pride?

To be clearer I consider hubris a sin. "Vanity is the fear of appearing original: it is thus a lack of pride, but not necessarily a lack of originality." Nietzsche (as often referred to by Stefan)

10 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

You are getting quite far from the standard dictionary definition.

I am talking pride while you are talking pride in excess and vanity.

Regards

DL

Vanity (From Google)

1. excessive pride in or admiration of one's own appearance or achievements.

2. the quality of being worthless or futile.

3. a dressing table.

Origin: "Vanus" meaning empty.

Either the primary standard definition is incorrect and most of society is vain and empty, and Nietzsche was correct. Or he was wrong and pride is arbitrary and up to other people to tell you, how you feel.

Still Why would you feel pride? I mean on a basic level you can take pride in appearance(tidiness) whilst having relatively little materially wise.

Carly Simon You're so vain

You walked into the party
Like you were walking on a yacht
Your hat strategically dipped below one eye
Your scarf, it was apricot
You had one eye on the mirror (why pay particular attention to yourself if you have pride?)
And watched yourself gavotte
And all the girls dreamed that they'd be your partner
They'd be your partner, and

You're so vain
You probably think this song is about you
You're so vain,
I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you?
Don't you?

Oh, you had me several years ago
When I was still naive
Well, you said that we made such a pretty pair
And that you would never leave
But you gave away the things you loved
And one of them was me (Implies lack of openness and originality, of course still only an opinion, hence the questioning)
I had some dreams, they were clouds in my coffee
Clouds in my coffee, and

You're so vain
You probably think this song is about you
You're so vain, you're so vain
I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you?
Don't you?

Well I hear you went to Saratoga
And your horse, naturally, won
Then you flew your Learjet up to Nova Scotia
To see the total eclipse of the sun
Well, you're where you should be all the time
And when you're not, you're with some underworld spy
Or the wife of a close friend,
Wife of a close friend, and

You're so vain
You probably think this song is about you
You're so vain, you're so vain
I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you?
Don't you?

Jsbrads · November 13, 2017

We would all make the same decision Adam made. We are the same humans

Gnostic Bishop · November 13, 2017

12 hours ago, Jsbrads said:

We would all make the same decision Adam made. We are the same humans

Exactly. None of us want to be as bright as bricks.

I just gave you this elsewhere.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Is that not what A & E did?

Gen 3:2 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Is that a fall or an elevation to you?

Regards

DL

Elizbaeth · December 5, 2017

On 10/12/2017 at 1:52 PM, Gnostic Bishop said:

If making man ruler over women that was an error, it would help explain the 5,000 years of war we have had to endure with undeserving men as rulers

Lolz. My first thought was “Hell yeah!! Woman power!”

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian church and it sucked being constantly reminded that I, personally (and it IS personal), was the reason that all of humans were damned until “washed by the blood.” And to add insult to injury, J had to sit quietly and listen to fat, gluttonous, dumb, unthinking brutes tell me what to make of writing that a)were created thousands of years ago, in a vadsky different culture and context and language, all the while I say there knowing that b) if the translation we used was good enough to base doctrines on, then why was my own ability not good enough to read what was written and draw my own conclusions? It’s rather insulting.

Now that my personal injury is aired, I will add something useful. Have you heard of the theories that the story of Adam and Eve was based off of a pagan story, where Eve is a goddess? The Bible has different telling of the story of Adam and Eve, and it’s theorized that the text has either been retrospectively doctored or was originally a convulsion of the Eve-goddess story of the Canaanite pantheon. If I remember right, it was changed to reflect the growing patriarchal society instead of the matriarchal one of the tribes of the time.

Gnostic Bishop · December 5, 2017

4 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

Lolz. My first thought was “Hell yeah!! Woman power!”

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian church and it sucked being constantly reminded that I, personally (and it IS personal), was the reason that all of humans were damned until “washed by the blood.” And to add insult to injury, J had to sit quietly and listen to fat, gluttonous, dumb, unthinking brutes tell me what to make of writing that a)were created thousands of years ago, in a vadsky different culture and context and language, all the while I say there knowing that b) if the translation we used was good enough to base doctrines on, then why was my own ability not good enough to read what was written and draw my own conclusions? It’s rather insulting.

Now that my personal injury is aired, I will add something useful. Have you heard of the theories that the story of Adam and Eve was based off of a pagan story, where Eve is a goddess? The Bible has different telling of the story of Adam and Eve, and it’s theorized that the text has either been retrospectively doctored or was originally a convulsion of the Eve-goddess story of the Canaanite pantheon. If I remember right, it was changed to reflect the growing patriarchal society instead of the matriarchal one of the tribes of the time.

Nice that I was here to catch your reply.

I have not read of the particular version of Eden you refer to but I do know that all of the bible is based on older and pagan traditions. Mostly from Sumer and Egypt but the Jesus archetypal story goes into the more Eastern traditions as well.

I agree that Christianity has tried to take all the feminine out of the bible, likely to help in their misogynist leanings.

My kingdom to reverse that trend, but it is a hard go when Christians deny their misogynistic and homophobic ways.

Regards

DL

Elizbaeth · December 5, 2017

4 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

ngdom to reverse that trend, but it is a hard go when Christians deny their misogynistic and homophobic way

I’m glad you were on here too!! Good luck with your mission. The Bible is one of my favorite books - I can’t escape the fact that I was raise with it, and I disagree with quite a bit, but also find so many parts of it beautiful. Christianity is not terrible in the way that some atheists make it out to be. I just hate that, to accept the good parts, you have to also swallow some pretty bad, too.

Gnostic Bishop · December 5, 2017

2 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

I’m glad you were on here too!! Good luck with your mission. The Bible is one of my favorite books - I can’t escape the fact that I was raise with it, and I disagree with quite a bit, but also find so many parts of it beautiful. Christianity is not terrible in the way that some atheists make it out to be. I just hate that, to accept the good parts, you have to also swallow some pretty bad, too.

There is a lot of wisdom in scriptures and even beauty as you say. It has to be read and understood the right way though to find the wisdom. Literalists and idol worshipers cannot read it properly as they fear their God.

Where they should see evil, they see good. That is how they end in adoring a genocidal son murdering prick.

That began right from the time Christianity reversed our elevation in Eden to our fall. Christians should have followed the Jewish view and praise Eve for the enlightenment of man but instead chose to denigrate women and call what Eve did evil.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

As to Christianity being terrible or good. What do you think of homophobia and misogyny and women not being given full equality in the church or society?

As to me, I am a Gnostic Christian and believed as they did before taking that label.

Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Regards

DL

Gnostic Bishop · December 5, 2017

12 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

I hope you can read what I put. I got a message that it had to be approved due to my putting links in.

Let me reprint the dialog without the links.

Posted just now · Hidden

Hidden

14 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

I’m glad you were on here too!! Good luck with your mission. The Bible is one of my favorite books - I can’t escape the fact that I was raise with it, and I disagree with quite a bit, but also find so many parts of it beautiful. Christianity is not terrible in the way that some atheists make it out to be. I just hate that, to accept the good parts, you have to also swallow some pretty bad, too.