The Morality/Immorality of Seuxal Fantasy

[Pod]

This is a question that I've long sought an answer to but could never pin down.  It's a topic I've only rarely heard discussed on the show, the most recent being the interview with Gary Wilson who wrote Your Brain On Porn (highly recommended). 

Basically, is pornography of any kind morally wrong to consume?
If so, what is the argument that pins it to the wall so we can help perpetrators see their immorality?
If not, should we treat it as an addictive behavior/substance?  Like booze or opiates?  Or should we be hands off in addressing it?

I personally see nothing morally wrong with a guy in his room consuming weird fetish pornography, just like a guy smoking on his balcony.  He isn't committing rape, theft, assault or murder, so his actions don't violate UPB.  It's a different case however if he's supporting (or funding) pornography in which UPB is being violated, the content of that example I'm sure you can fill in yourselves. 

At the same time, I can't help but get this feeling or voice in the back of my head that tells me something is wrong.  That this has an air of destructiveness that can have devastating effects on a person's life.  It goes deeper than a nicotine addiction does, because sexuality is something so personal and intimate.  This feels like a totally different beast that I can't get good philosophical footing on. 

Maybe I'm over-thinking it and if twenty-year-olds wanna watch hentai then there's nothing wrong with that, but something feels off. 

As for Stef's views on this, I've extracted little tid-bits from shows, one about sexual fetishism  where he said sexual fetishism needs to be corrected, and in the same show he questioned the listener on his openness about his fetish with his mother.  He said "How do you talk about this stuff with your mom?  'I like it this way with whip cream and a dinosaur toy-' this is just something I never wanna hear from my children."  And he didn't say it in an angry or condemning way, but in a joking sort of "that's private and should stay private".  The show is titled The Origins Of Sexual Fetishism for those interested. 

In conclusion, here's my best "argument" against the consumption of pornography that I'm unsure of:
Why would you need porn to be aroused if you're in a relationship?  What is it about your significant other that is lacking in the sexual department?  Shouldn't your lover be the only source of arousal in your life?  Porn is wrong to consume because you pledge your sexual arousal to your partner, and them to you, so using porn is like going to a prostitute or cheating.  All done for sexual needs at the neglect of your partner. 

So what are your guys's opinions on this?  Link me a previous thread if it's been talked about before. 

[Pod]

@Philosiraptor

What's your opinion on the simulated/animated porn industry?  Those don't use real actors/actresses and it's a smaller industry but it has the advantage of basically being able to be anything the consumer wants.  Where do you think the line should be drawn? 

[Pod]

@Philociraptor
I'm still ambivalent about this kinda stuff.  I just get a bad feeling when I'm exposed to stuff like what was mentioned above.  Even if I find some of it appealing, that feeling that something is wrong that I can't put my finger on lures me away from it.  It may just be historical self-attack or maybe it's my intuition telling me it's a bad idea.  Maybe if someone had a moral argument about this then I could put this to rest but until then I'm kinda floating around.

[Jsbrads]

Harm to society: Japan is replacing at .8

Distorting human mind: it isn't sex.

Harm the industry causes: addicting women on cocaine and then pressuring them into unending sex work is a common technique.

it seems to me, role playing with a partner is healthy.

[Pod]

46 minutes ago, Jsbrads said:

Harm to society: Japan is replacing at .8

Distorting human mind: it isn't sex.

Harm the industry causes: addicting women on cocaine and then pressuring them into unending sex work is a common technique.

it seems to me, role playing with a partner is healthy.

Ok so 2/3 of these are beliefs of how porn is effecting people, but none are moral arguments.

What I'm asking for is an argument from morality on why pornography consumption is wrong.  My current belief is that morality doesn't play a part in it because it is UPB compliant.  Everyone can consume porn and want others to consume porn (unlike rape/theft/murder).

I think there are arguments to be made as to its addictive qualities, again, Your Brain On Porn is a goldmine of info, but I don't think a moral argument exists. 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

This is a surprisingly interesting topic...

I don't think I have to argue why fapping (I may as well make it general) isn't immoral nor is it moral. Above posts have made that case.

On the other hand it is interesting to explain why it is actually good for young people (males especially) as a protection of sorts against bad women (or bad guys in the case of women--but as a man I'll be focused on our perspective. Perhaps it's different for women or actually very similar--I don't know). 

What I remember from that interview was that guys like myself who regularly fap to increasingly high standard and occasionally bizarre stuff have a much higher threshold for being aroused and  magnetic to the general fertile female population. While in a steady relationship that is going to mean less sex, it also means having to judge a woman by her actions and her personality more than her sexuality and whether or not she'll put out on demand. By fapping our way into the holo deck (that thing in Star Trek, I can't recall in much detail, but basically lets its users fantasize in real time whatever they want) we are much less likely to be dick-napped by bad women and much more likely to be disgusted by them. 

On the contrary since we are much harder to arouse by the common woman, we can instead base our romantic relationships on values and personality instead of on sex (which frankly is impossible to not base a relationship at least unintentionally on because men naturally desire to blow loads of semen on women they think are hot, and when desperate; anything remotely female).

Therefore I figure by making harder for us to become hard, we protect ourselves from bad women and make it possible to judge women in general the same way we judge men: by their actions, their personality, and their values (as well as whether their actions are in accordance to their spoken values, etc. etc.).

P.S. 

I can't say I know much about the porn industry, I never watch porn since the stuff is always crap and unappealing compared to better acted movie/show sex scenes and best of all; hentai, which is generally perfectly acted and much more emotionally involved and stimulating. I'm curious if anyone else thinks similarly and whether or not my theory "Fap Away the Harpy" has any practical or real world affects (that are positive). 

P.S.S.

Japan's low birth rate isn't necessarily a problem: they don't have to out breed a low IQ "minority" (like Europeans and Americans do) and they live on a highly defensible archipelago (which the English have taken great advantage of throughout history).  Once their old folks die off and their economy de-socializes, I'm sure things will pick back up and they will have another golden age. Heck, I'm tempted to say they have at least a "silver age" given  their practically non-existent crime rate, amazing culture, and first world living standards. 

Russia is more or less a similar country in these aspects and one I think ought to be looked up to.  

[Jsbrads]

Morals are right and wrong. It is just a word.

If pornography kills off humans, it is evil. To destroy all human life is a level of evil rarely attempted by man.

some people buy Fair Trade coffee, is their porn Fair?

[Pod]

2 hours ago, Jsbrads said:

Morals are right and wrong. It is just a word.

If pornography kills off humans, it is evil. To destroy all human life is a level of evil rarely attempted by man.

some people buy Fair Trade coffee, is their porn Fair?

wat

[Jsbrads]

The easiest way to know if something is bad for you is if it hurts you...

if it is bad for you it is wrong...

[Tyler H]

On 10/18/2017 at 4:23 AM, Jsbrads said:

The easiest way to know if something is bad for you is if it hurts you...

if it is bad for you it is wrong...

So bees are wrong?

 

OP- Is having sex immoral? Is filming immoral? Is watching sex immoral? Would you use force to prevent any of these things? If not why would you use force to prevent the combination of these things. 

Morality concerns itself with the use of force, otherwise it is just your opinion of which you can do little about. You say it’s bad, someone else says it’s not. Now what?  You must be willing to use force to inflict your morality so you better be sure you are actually right. We’ve seen where incorrect moral ideologies lead - mountains of bodies.

There’s nothing wrong with ostracizing people. If you don’t like what they are doing then don’t associate with them, don’t encourage their behavior, try to convince others of your reasons.  What you can’t do is initiate force to stop them from doing what you don’t like, if you have that right then everyone has that right and you can see how quickly that will lead to violence. 

[smarterthanone]

I actually used to act and help produce porn when I was in college. None of you know what you are talking about. Nobody was on drugs or pressured or anything, nobody got any stds. Just because that is what you saw in a movie about porn doesn't make it true.

Porn is not morally wrong or morally right, its indifferent. Like is eating ice cream a morally good activity or bad? When in excess it could be bad. But nobody is talking about doing something in excess. Most things in excess are bad. So the fact some people become addicted to porn is irrelevant. Simply watching porn once in awhile when you have nothing better to do... heck getting a quick nut off before going to sleep every night when you don't have a partner, whats the harm? What is the harm in having a scoop of ice cream sometimes?

In fact, I think porn was very beneficial to my life, I learned how to have sex from porn and most women love how I have sex with them. Glad I didn't have to figure it out on my own or I wouldn't be such a good lover today.

[Jsbrads]

LoL, yes, your anecdotal experience is how the entire industry operates.

AIDs gets passed around the porn industry all the time. 

Heroine used moderately is also fine?

promiscuity is also a bad thing. 

Being careless around bees is stupid, same with chainsaws, heavy machinery and wildlife in general. 

Sorry to be so patronizing, but the question up top isn't should we use force to prevent people from doing things we don't like, but is it moral.

I'm guessing some people here think we should generally choose to eat healthy, but not use force against someone who has an extra burger.

treating your body like crap is still wrong even if you don't steal the money, or beat people over the head with your salami. 

[smarterthanone]

On 10/24/2017 at 3:39 AM, Jsbrads said:

LoL, yes, your anecdotal experience is how the entire industry operates.

AIDs gets passed around the porn industry all the time. 

Heroine used moderately is also fine?

promiscuity is also a bad thing. 

Being careless around bees is stupid, same with chainsaws, heavy machinery and wildlife in general. 

Sorry to be so patronizing, but the question up top isn't should we use force to prevent people from doing things we don't like, but is it moral.

I'm guessing some people here think we should generally choose to eat healthy, but not use force against someone who has an extra burger.

treating your body like crap is still wrong even if you don't steal the money, or beat people over the head with your salami. 

Actually STDs are transmitted through porn population less than non porn population. Actors get tested very regularly so its caught very fast. Non porn workers do not get tested very regularly and it spreads like wild fire.

Yeah actually. If you could use heroine and control yourself to only do it once in a blue moon and always when you had nothing else going on and in a safe manner, what would be the harm?

You cant just say promiscuity is a bad thing. Bad for who? Im sure you would consider me promiscuous. Nothing bad ever happened to me.

How is having sex treating your body like crap?

I feel like you are conflating the individual to the group and vice versa. If everyone just slept with everyone might it be bad for society, yeah it very well might. If some stranger you don't know does it, how is it bad? I has no bearing on you, so what is so bad?

The question if it is moral, well if you believe the NAP is the moral rule, then sure, it absolutely is moral. I don't see how non consent or violence plays any role in pornography. I also don't see how NAP could lead to other moral judgements outside of that. Where is your moral framework coming from is the real question before we can answer about pornography.

[Elizbaeth]

On 10/21/2017 at 9:16 AM, Tyler H said:

Morality concerns itself with the use of force, otherwise

Does it? Not arguing with you, but I’ve not heard this before. Would you explain? 

 

On 10/21/2017 at 2:23 PM, smarterthanone said:

earned how to have sex from porn and most women love how I have sex with them.

This actually scares me quite a bit. I’m glad your partners had good experiences, but most women I know whose men learned from porn generally feel a superficial connection at best. Usually, though, they end up feeling lonely, isolated, and like a human flesh light for their partners to act out fantasies with. 

 

On 10/15/2017 at 2:13 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

I'm curious if anyone else thinks similarly and whether or not my theory "Fap Away the Harpy" has any practical or real world affects (that are positive). 

I’m grateful to hear this perspective. I have two small sons, so I’m pretty interested in what is good for men and how best to get it. 

I can’t help but think, though, that it would be better in the long run to not deaden yourself to the sexual intimacy in a LTR. Maybe it would be better to avoid “dick napping” through more exposure to women? Is that crazy? If you’re around them more, than a pretty face is bound to some some personality sooner or later. 

On 10/15/2017 at 4:29 AM, Pod said:

 

@Philociraptor
I'm still ambivalent about this kinda stuff.  I just get a bad feeling when I'm exposed to stuff like what was mentioned above.  Even if I find some of it appealing, that feeling that something is wrong that I can't put my finger on lures me away from it.  It may just be historical self-attack or maybe it's my intuition telling me it's a bad idea.  Maybe if someone had a moral argument about this then I could put this to rest but until then I'm kinda floating around.

 

I always felt a little like that too. I didn’t like it, didn’t want it and felt gross about it, but couldn’t quite say why. 

My ambivalence changed entirely when I got pregnant. Never felt so wretchedly vulnerable and scared, and suddenly sex was dangerous, and should only be done with love and trust. Trust and openness from the woman, and a protective, committed love from the man. I felt this way because sex caused me to get pregnant, which made me excruciatingly aware that I was vulnerable. If we were in cavemen times, I would have been 100% dependent on him to care for me and for the consequences of our sex. Porn strips that away and feeds into this hunger for sex and intimacy without any of the costs, which are quite real and quite huge (as does birth control pills - I think everyone’s forgotten that sex is not a toy and can often have life or death consequences, and no one seems to understand that it’s so much more than just an orgasm). Plus, any woman I’ve ever talked to feels pretty betrayed if her man watches porn. It’s another woman to his mind - maybe he’s faithful “in reality,” but if his dick thinks it’s real, then he’s filling up on another woman regardless. 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

I’m grateful to hear this perspective. I have two small sons, so I’m pretty interested in what is good for men and how best to get it. 

I have some idea but--keep in mind--I am a 19 year old virgin at the start of his career, so a lot of the advice I might have is still theoretical.

Quote

I can’t help but think, though, that it would be better in the long run to not deaden yourself to the sexual intimacy in a LTR. Maybe it would be better to avoid “dick napping” through more exposure to women? Is that crazy? If you’re around them more, than a pretty face is bound to some some personality sooner or later. 

I don't date, but it's not like I don't have attraction to attractive strangers. I am pretty sure the guy Stefpai interviewed has a point about fapping/porn/hentai affecting men's ability to become aroused, but I grew up a bit more r than most and have a high testosterone background. I think I have more to lose than most and that helps in mitigating that potential negative.

I have essentially rationalized that fapping can be a protective safeguard (for boys and girls) against pursuing pre-marital sex or flings, as well as a potential lessening of the powers bad but attractive women have.

I think when the time comes for me to find a wife, I won't want my penis deciding it for me, therefore if I'm not that hard while I'm scanning the women I'd be dating I will probably be much more objective in determining who's good and who's bad. 

I don't think actively exposing myself to the friendzone of attractive women is a good idea; I'd just be training myself to be a beta puppy. I think the best way to maintain self-composure with attractive members of the opposite sex is to tame the lion so that only the really really hot can spin right round into some endless disco of potential blender shredding. 

I don't think my taming the lion will have a negative affect on sexual intimacy or long term relationships. In fact I think it'd help because I'd be less focused on Miss Right's assets and more focused on her character as well as less tempted to break the Catholic standard of "no sex before marriage". After the wedding though I doubt I'll be fapping much since I'll probably be in the endless sexathon honey moon phase, and after that probably moderate to something less time consuming and more intimate.

Either way I think male horniness is man's weakness in finding good women and is easily exploited by bad women. It's better to have less sexual interest in the long run since it means picking wives/husbands based on character and virtue rather than sexuality. 

And I think fapping away the harpy is especially helpful for those of us that are especially sensual and attractive, since it prevents us from possibly doing something we'll regret and maintaining our moral dignity. I think young, sensual, and attractive women especially should be fapping since it'll help them maintain their much-coveted virginity (and with virginity being a huge indicator of self-discipline and other good stuff, it ought to be protected). 

Of course again I'm still largely a kid and I can't say there's no potential negatives either. Your sons might be less sensually inclined than me or other high testosterone types and therefore be more negatively affected by it. I think it's preferable to being ensnared in harpy dens but there may be healthier alternatives I'm not seeing or learning. 

Either way my most general advice is to knock on your sons' door and waiting for them to open it before entering them (for obvious reasons) and not getting involved in their fap life while being very cautious of their dating life. I don't have to tell you young boys aren't the best judges of character (unless you raise them to be of course) and therefore require moral and character guidance from a Mama and Papa that know better.

EDIT: Maybe it helps I generally don't fap to anything hardcore. Maybe that has far more severe effects, I don't know.I generally am not interested in the hardcore stuff (since it's generally pretty ugly and undesirable) and therefore prefer the hollywood-esque softcore and hentai (and other things that aren't at all sexual but sexually attractive like models or whatever) and maybe this preference is safer and healthier than the really hardcore stuff.

Maybe there ought to be a distinction between fapping to models and images to softcore/hentai to the really hardcore stuff. I think the mental implications and physiological results might be different. 

After all I can't say Mr. Pecker's "deadened" since it's about as lively as it's ever been to my living memory. But then again I could either be an exception or more genetically safe for that sort of thing.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Siegfried von Walheim
Epiphany

[Tyler H]

16 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Does it? Not arguing with you, but I’ve not heard this before. Would you explain? 

Sure! Enforceability is what differentiates morality from opinion.  Whenever someone wants to inflict their opinion on others they call it morality in order to justify its enforcement. This is why it’s very important to refrain from declaring arbitrary moral proclamations; when the wrong moral system is adopted hundreds of millions of people are killed. 

If you haven’t read (or listened to) Universally Preferable Behavior yet then I would strongly suggest that you do. UPB is a framework for evaluating moral theories so we can avoid the catastrophes of history and rely on an objective standard for moral behavior. 

[smarterthanone]

On 12/4/2017 at 8:52 PM, Elizbaeth said:

This actually scares me quite a bit. I’m glad your partners had good experiences, but most women I know whose men learned from porn generally feel a superficial connection at best. Usually, though, they end up feeling lonely, isolated, and like a human flesh light for their partners to act out fantasies with. 

If you casually learn from porn, yes. It's too much to explain here but trust me there is more to it than quick thrusts with a stranger ending in a facial. If you actually jump into it 100% then it can teach you how to build insane levels of trust and intimacy.