barn Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 Hi @JamiMacki Man, those are some brave words and attitude. Thumbs up on your constructive approach. Recently Jordan B Peterson's had an interview with a Swedish journalist and perhaps you'd want to watch the video entirely (or at least starting from 00:39:30) I don't believe, the only reason as to why transgenderism exists is due to social constructs but certainly it doesn't help if propaganda is being employed heavily by any government. (I'm approximating a point here) ' Parents perceive the sex of their children a risk. Girls can be girls or boys. Boys are seen problematic. They can't really be boys lately. ' Barnsley
JamiMacki Posted December 16, 2017 Author Posted December 16, 2017 Regrettably I think this may be my last post here, at least for a time. My life is getting a bit crammed and it's hard to find the time and mental energy to return to these arguments for the moment. I'll give some quick housekeeping replies so as not to leave you all with lingering questions and also try and read any replies you've got to this one, but after that no promises. My replies are bound to be brief and unsatisfying but so it goes. Anyways, I found this thread useful and I'll thank you all for your contributions, especially to Donnadogsoth who's stuck around for quite a long time. My views are not precisely the same as when I first started the thread, about the use of the word defect, about how to conceptualize sex and gender as categories, and a few other things. On 12/9/2017 at 12:38 PM, Donnadogsoth said: Why is heterosexuality a coercive evil? You're telling me that males in traditional male roles and females in traditional female roles is equivalent to rape and slavery? No, that's not what I'm telling you. The context of that post was regarding transphobia, the sense of disgust toward trans people, and the behaviors acted out as a response. Completely separate issue from heterosexuality. On 12/9/2017 at 12:38 PM, Donnadogsoth said: Defying her entire genetic code in terms of her ability to bear children and change it over to that of a begetter? Huge difference. It's more like a 90 year old trying to look 15. You still haven't really solved the issue of subjectivity of your viewing point here. And even if you do, I don't think you can use that difference to justify or rationalize a phobic person's disgust toward a trans person taking hormones. On 12/2/2017 at 4:33 PM, Donnadogsoth said: Zinni Jones in her glory Not just polymorphous perversity but sexual bullying by trying to induce heterosexual men into having relations with transsexual women. I think you've grossly misjudged Zinnia here. She isn't bullying straight men. She's simply pointing out something that's obviously true to any trans woman involved in dating. Plenty of straight men are perfectly capable of finding a trans woman attractive, penis or no penis. Plenty of those straight men have stigma against trans people at the same time. Some of those men will seek us out anyway but are riddled with shame and want secrecy, and a lot of those men are the exact same people that loudly proclaim that straight men can't be attracted to a women with a penis, but their claims like "it's just sexual preference" is just a lie made to validate the stigma they hold, and repress their desires. I've personally encountered men like this, and so has every other trans woman I've known. Zinnia isn't saying that people like you don't exist (straight men that genuinely can't find trans women attractive due to strong fertility and anatomy preferences), she's just saying the numbers of those men are much smaller than you might think. On 12/10/2017 at 12:58 PM, DustyOne said: My post was more about the 'what-if'. Would it change any choices you would make if you found that a high percentage of male feminization in current human biology was the direct result of specific environmental contaminants (estrogen mimickers)? I know for me that it's something I would definitely want to know before making any major life changing choices. The question on its own is not relevant enough to impact my decision making, so no. Knowing specifically what caused the feminization of my brain and the resulting female gender identity does nothing for me in terms of expanding my options for what can be done about it. As I said there are a number of possible causes, most of which are unproven and just conjecture at this point, but no possibility seems to suggest that my gender identity can be changed at this point, at least not by any method we currently know of. It also raises the question of, if I could instead change my gender identity to match my natural primary sexual characteristics, instead of visa versa, should I? There's the philosophical issue of whether or not that's ethical. My gender seems as though it's a core piece of my consciousness, and an important part of what makes me, me. The idea of manipulating the development of mere flesh seems insignificant in comparison to reshaping my consciousness itself into someone else. On 12/11/2017 at 2:51 AM, barn said: Hi @JamiMacki Man, those are some brave words and attitude. Thumbs up on your constructive approach. Recently Jordan B Peterson's had an interview with a Swedish journalist and perhaps you'd want to watch the video entirely (or at least starting from 00:39:30) I don't believe, the only reason as to why transgenderism exists is due to social constructs but certainly it doesn't help if propaganda is being employed heavily by any government. (I'm approximating a point here) ' Parents perceive the sex of their children a risk. Girls can be girls or boys. Boys are seen problematic. They can't really be boys lately. ' Barnsley Gender identity and sexual preferences are clearly not social constructs. That's just a fact at this point. Gender roles are certainly socially constructed, but there is doubt as to what extent it can be detached from our biology. Even if it is purely socially constructed, that doesn't mean it isn't real or significant. Money is also a social construct, for example, and is so important that most everyone alive shapes their behavior around its existence. I watched the small clip of that interview from your timestamp and enjoyed it. I would argue just as they were describing how you can't put a homosexual person in a straight camp to reconstruct them, you can't simply put me in a boy camp to make me not a girl, and attempting to reconstruct me in such a way is psychologically damaging and certainly unethical.
barn Posted December 16, 2017 Posted December 16, 2017 Hi @JamiMacki Very thoughtful of you. All the best with your eventful life at this stage, surely looking forward to seeing you around. Barnsley
Donnadogsoth Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 On 12/15/2017 at 6:52 PM, JamiMacki said: No, that's not what I'm telling you. The context of that post was regarding transphobia, the sense of disgust toward trans people, and the behaviors acted out as a response. Completely separate issue from heterosexuality. I see it as nature versus artifice. Most biological men and biological women require no artifice to look and act their sex and function reproductively. Transsexuals require extensive medical intervention to look the way they want to look, and remain unable to reproduce except by turning the father/mother dyad upside down (I've read of transsexual couples where "daddy" bears the child). You still haven't really solved the issue of subjectivity of your viewing point here. And even if you do, I don't think you can use that difference to justify or rationalize a phobic person's disgust toward a trans person taking hormones. Disgust at mutilation is natural. I think you've grossly misjudged Zinnia here. She isn't bullying straight men. She's simply pointing out something that's obviously true to any trans woman involved in dating. Plenty of straight men are perfectly capable of finding a trans woman attractive, penis or no penis. Plenty of those straight men have stigma against trans people at the same time. Some of those men will seek us out anyway but are riddled with shame and want secrecy, and a lot of those men are the exact same people that loudly proclaim that straight men can't be attracted to a women with a penis, but their claims like "it's just sexual preference" is just a lie made to validate the stigma they hold, and repress their desires. I've personally encountered men like this, and so has every other trans woman I've known. Zinnia isn't saying that people like you don't exist (straight men that genuinely can't find trans women attractive due to strong fertility and anatomy preferences), she's just saying the numbers of those men are much smaller than you might think. Heterosexual men are being groomed.
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