Willpower comes from...

[barn]

Hi there,

(part of a series of essentials) Complete the sentences with what you think is most important, then in the second with what you think helps a great deal.

Willpower requires...., because...

and

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial...

 

I'm looking forward to seeing your inputs.

Barnsley

[ofd]

Willpower requires repetition, because it can be trained.

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to read the book by Roy Baumeister.

 

[barn]

Hi @ofd

Your recommendation(piece of reading) is noted and I will have a look once I understand why I should, pardon my hesitation.

5 hours ago, ofd said:

Willpower requires repetition, because it can be trained.

My aim was for the source, obvious generalisations aren't so. (Reading back my comment I assume it's worth to clarify...)

Causation, depending on. (Reckon you get my meaning.)

Nevertheless, considered the input.

Have a good one,

Barnsley

[Boss]

Willpower requires conscientiousness because you will understand why you should do something or if you should restrain impulses.

In order to possess willpower, it's greatly beneficial to be virtuous, free, truthful and courageous 

[barn]

Hi @Boss

Only in name, would be glad to hear you're professionally too, if applicable/reported likewise.

Thanks a bunch,

Barnsley

[M.2]

11 hours ago, barn said:

Willpower requires...., because...

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial...

Ah, this is my kind of topic.
Willpower requires a want , because without without an aim, there is only unactualised will; will is an intrinsic human component with the capacity for free action.
In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to exercise it. If you don't exercise it, you will lose it.

[barn]

Hi @Mishi2

While I see and partially agree with the source (my failing really, I just guess there's something deeper than an arbitrary 'want'. As in = Don't intend to belittle your wording though.) I would like to dig deeper.

As of the beneficial, can't say I disagree other than plain and simply 'fair enough' and 'certainly can't go wrong'.

Appreciate your input, @Mishi2

Have a good one!

Barnsley

p. s. : Trying to get somewhere here, no disrespect or talking down from a high horse here, men/ladies! I'd be certainly called out for, given the makup of this fine community! You bet I would! :-}

[barn]

[Any indicators how to become fancier on formatting? Nevermind, non-essential.]

Could it be(?),

Willpower requires integration at heart, because there's the certainty, the kind of which is... is. (there goes my linguistic reach, hopefully gets through. It's how I see it.)

As for the beneficial,

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to experience fear and experiment with courage.

 

So people know 'what direction my wind was blowing from'. Feel free to hack at it, if you feel the need for it.

Barnsley

[Siegfried von Walheim]

Willpower requires courage; because courage is required to face the real and imagined obstacles that require willpower in the first place.

Willpower is required to successfully achieve ambitions grander than "work at McDonalds; Bang this thirty-something year old single mom".

As was said above, willpower can be gained by successful practice of it. I'd suggest starting small like keeping a healthy daily routine of waking up early, doing exercises, sleeping before midnight, etc. and doing stuff that you can take pride in; like a job that is a stepping stone to a career, regular work towards a project (especially if your career is oriented around regular work by your own direction instead of by someone else's order), praying/meditating to learn about one's own past mistakes and what to learn from them, etc. 

As also said above, I think having a strong will for something is also important. Wanting something can be a great incentive for doing the necessary steps for achieving it. It may make it easier to exercise willpower since you can have faith that by doing X it'll lead to Y. 

[Will 001]

Willpower requires good health and overall well-being, because good feelings counterbalance the discomfort of self control.

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to exercise, because it  physiologically puts you in a K-selected state. (Or so I believe)

Also, making yourself do more than necessary is self-sabotage. Your unconscious mind knows when you are wasting time, and it will shut off your motivation. I can attest to that from personal self-observation, and Tim Ferriss talks about this  frequently. (The minimum effective dose principle) This is a topic I've been obsessed with, so I can recommend a some resources.

-The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg (Life Changing)

-Anything by Tim Ferriss on this topic. 

[neeeel]

Willpower requires belief. Belief in willpower, belief that you can attain what you want. Belief that you can act

[barn]

Hi @neeeel

 

2 hours ago, neeeel said:

Willpower requires belief. Belief in willpower, belief that you can attain what you want. Belief that you can act

I might be wrong (doubt it pretty strongly, but hey it's a short quote..), isn't what you are proposing a circular argument?

Barnsley

[barn]

Hi @Will 001

 

9 hours ago, Will 001 said:

Willpower requires good health and overall well-being, because good feelings counterbalance the discomfort of self control.

 

I tend to disagree here, given there are a great number of sick (unhealthy physically) people who are shining sources of examples in 'healthy' willpower, especially those whom possess it regardless of the obvious drive to get healthy. i.e.: provable prior track record.

On the other hand if I extrapolate and take your meaning regarding mental health, it's pretty much the direction I believe the answer lies. Although I wish to dig deeper to reveal more layers of causation still.

9 hours ago, Will 001 said:

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to exercise, because it  physiologically puts you in a K-selected state. (Or so I believe)

Can't argue with that, well said I believe...(me too).

9 hours ago, Will 001 said:

Your unconscious mind knows when you are wasting time, and it will shut off your motivation. I can attest to that from personal self-observation, and Tim Ferriss talks about this  frequently. (The minimum effective dose principle) This is a topic I've been obsessed with, so I can recommend a some resources.

-The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg (Life Changing)

-Anything by Tim Ferriss on this topic. 

I'm strongly inclined all forms of 'meco system work', (nitpicking, pardon) would use a rather more positive language to contribute changes in the unconscious (in order to maintain, continuously enable a healthy dose of curiosity) but in essence I think we generally 'see eye to eye'. Furthermore you have also sold me on the idea of checking out the resources.

Your constructive comments are much appreciated,

Have a good one,

Barnsley

[neeeel]

8 minutes ago, barn said:

Hi @neeeel

 

I might be wrong (doubt it pretty strongly, but hey it's a short quote..), isn't what you are proposing a circular argument?

Barnsley

You are possibly correct, yes. Will power only exists if we believe in it. Is that circular?

[barn]

To @neeeel

5 minutes ago, neeeel said:

You are possibly correct, yes. Will power only exists if we believe in it. Is that circular?

I thought so, glad we agree.

To your question :

1. No problem but that wasn't the question I interested to discuss.

2. No, not really. I guess that's more like flawed argument. Things existing doesn't depend on whether we believe it in the objective world. i. e. : not seeing a problem does not make it disappear (perception wise might but thats flawed too)

Barnsley

[neeeel]

1 hour ago, barn said:

To @neeeel

I thought so, glad we agree.

To your question :

1. No problem but that wasn't the question I interested to discuss.

2. No, not really. I guess that's more like flawed argument. Things existing doesn't depend on whether we believe it in the objective world. i. e. : not seeing a problem does not make it disappear (perception wise might but thats flawed too)

Barnsley

things that exist for real dont depend on whether we believe in it, yes. Things that dont exist , people can believe in them and they ( or the belief in them) can be motivating factors 

[ofd]

Baumeister researched willpower in a scientifc way and gives recommendations how to improve it.

[barn]

Hi @Siegfried von Walheim

 

20 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Willpower requires courage; because courage is required to face the real and imagined obstacles that require willpower in the first place.

Fair enough. From what does courage get born from?

 

20 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Willpower is required to successfully achieve ambitions grander than "work at McDonalds; Bang this thirty-something year old single mom".

Well, duh. Besides, thanks for reinforcing it I had always believed it.

20 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

willpower can be gained by successful practice of it. I'd suggest starting small like keeping a healthy daily routine of waking up early, doing exercises, sleeping before midnight, etc. 

I don't think so. Routines can be gained, habits alike. Willpower is much more than industriosness. Yet again, I do agree with how that(positive routines) can be reinforced.

20 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

having a strong will for something is also important. Wanting something can be a great incentive for doing the necessary steps for achieving it.

Sure. Stubbornness is a possible positive under certain circumstances. It also can lead to the illusion of strong willpower.

 

Your inputs are much appreciated. Thanks.

Barnsley

[barn]

Hi @neeeel

 

6 hours ago, neeeel said:

Things that dont exist , people can believe in them and they ( or the belief in them) can be motivating factors 

I have no interest in fantasies, diversions from reason & evidence. Maybe we can have a convo about your proposed topic on a different sub, some other day.

Have a good one,

Barnsley

 

 

[barn]

Hi @ofd

 

5 hours ago, ofd said:

Baumeister researched willpower in a scientifc way and gives recommendations how to improve it.

 

Noted. Much appreciated.

Barnsley

[RichardY]

Maybe it would help to have some baseline personality types to look at. In terms of having the most willpower those most conscious of their thinking and passions with an internalised ethos (ENTJ's) could perhaps be said to have the most will power imho, although personalities do change and someone could go to an ESTJ with slightly less willpower. Those heavy in introverted sensing imho will tend to be the conservatives and social conservatives and more akin to stubbornness, making environmental changes more significant, than any ethical or abstract argument.

 

Thinking (Most Masculine): Te (conscious, Masc), Ti (unconscious, Fem)

Intuition (Masculine): Ni(Formulaic, Masc), Ne(Pattern Matching, Fem) 

Sensing (Feminin): Se(New Material, Masc), Si(Old Material, Fem)

Feeling (Most Feminin): Fi(Intrinsic Motivation, Masc), Fe (Extrinsic Motivation, Fem) 

ENTJ: Executive (Maximum Willpower, Most Masculine Personality) Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Trump, Aristotle, Stefan(?) 

INTJ: Scientist (High Willpower) Thomas Edison.

INTP: Thinker (Low Willpower) Socrates, Plato, Nietzsche, C.G.Jung. 

ENTP: Visionary (Minimal Willpower) Da Vinci.

ENFJ: Teacher (No Willpower, Collective)

ESFJ: Provider/Carer (No Willpower, furthest from it, Most Feminin Personality) - Most Instinctual hormonal?, mother and her young........

ISFP: Artist (Fanaticism) Van Gogh, Mozart.

INFP: Healer (Altruism) Jesus Christ. Florence Nightingale

 

[barn]

Hi @RichardY

35 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Maybe it would help to have some baseline personality types to look at.

If you ask me, no. (my opinion, take it what's it worth, usual caveats respectfully)

I would much rather see how you answered the proposed sentence completion. Please understand I was once into (16 personalities) the same framework but upon doing Jordan B. Peterson's big 5 personality assessment...All my questions regarding this area got answered, won't ever feel the need to do anything similar again. It was like realising the difference between 'abstract, to-a-degree tangible categorisation' vs 'What do you bring to the table and how that and other traits exist/interact based on real life studies & assessments now knowing all this stuff go and clean up your room!'.(giggles)

I do realise me saying this has the tendency to belittle an otherwise very interesting approach, I just think having 5 compared to 16 (16=much more complex+composite abstracts and a real danger of getting lost among all the minute nuances) supplemented with the Jordan B Peterson style objective pointers&clarifiers quite frankly provides a greater and much steadier 'grip' to anyone. I sincerely think.

I had taken similar tests (some offline, others from the net, some lousy, others from popular sites) and usually would get an ENTJ (with p) ... in case you cared/wondered.

All that said, it all changed when I discovered the pointers / 'simple English' explanations alongside with an instructive breakdown of the significance & dynamics regarding the 5 big personality aspects, with comparable data points handing me true tools to work with. On a second note, I did come along a long way(had an obsession with personality, hand writing, body language, NLP... few more I don't dare to mention being quirky :-) and can't be sure if there was another 'X' factor I'm not yet aware of. Doubt it, though because all that I've learnt (generalisation I know, trying to be practical) seemed distilled, de-weeded and readily available in the big 5 assessment.

Have a good one,

Barnsley

[RichardY]

@barn

Had a few ideas I thought relevant to Willpower, kind of a big subject to tackle imho. "Hack at it" like sugar cane and "distil" it down. Make some spirits or something eventually.

-----------

Willpower requires....an Ethos (in the affirmative) ,which must be embodied(i.e not just some words or conceptual ideas. For example, holy sacrament or "service guarantees citizenship")  because the complexity of being is far greater than for any one person to comprehend.

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial... 1) to not be vain. 2) live in a community that shares an Ethos.

-----------

Courage requires kindness.

------------

Trials of Heracles. The imposition of the masculine upon the feminin. Trial 5)Washing out the stables, a situation where "willpower alone in insufficient". Willpower part of the trials, not the task in itself.

------------------

Tangible vs Abstract. The MBTI (INTP personally, but also was close at one point to ISTP) is abstract, I tend to think of it as semaphores or valves in a way 1)Thinking & Feeling 2)Intuition & Sensing. But I guess with "The Big Five" can look at particular instances and consider ways of dealing with effects or not. Try to "optimise", as if designing an RPG (Roleplaying Game Character). Whether this could be considered as a manifestation of freewill or the evolution towards greater consciousness.

Another thing is that "The Big Five" also split into subtypes, so Conscientiousness is: Orderliness and Industriousness. Maybe you have some ideas on how to influence the personality traits? 

Big Five

Agreeableness - High Agreeableness; perhaps correlated with high ext feeling. I've gotten "very low agreeableness" on a couple of Big Five Tests. I wonder if it is possible to destroy Agreeableness all together as a concept.

Neuroticism - High Neuroticism; correlated with Int Sensing and Int thinking. Low Neuroticism = Sloth, High = Rabbit.  To lower neuroticism apparently raising conscientiousness makes a difference, smoking a joint perhaps or perhaps meditation.

Conscientiousness - High Conscientiousness; with Int Intuition(orderliness), High Int Sensing(orderliness), High Ext Thinking(Industriousness). I'd imagine that Conscientiousness is the most limitless of the Big Five. Perhaps a "stable" society will tend to raise industriousness, where as a "disorderly" society "order", which may occur gradually or through mass slaughter.

Openness - High openness; High Ext Intuition, High Int Thinking, High Ext Sensing. Which makes me think that increasing neuroticism will also tend to increase openness on an intellectual level. Where as those with high preferences for material resources or novel items (High Ext sensing) will tend to be leftists and open border advocates.

Extraversion - High Extroversion;  Ext Sensing, Ext Intuition, Ext Thinking.

--------------------

Why covet willpower? multiplier factor?

--------------------

Psalm 23

23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

--------------

[barn]

Hi @RichardY

I'll come back soon, re-emerging from my bat-cave, hopefully with a more learned looking response. Your cerebral dump(meant it with respect) is much appreciated as you've given me pointers and structure(!!!) to go along with it.

Till then, don't let your axe go blunt or your arms tire!

Barnsley

[meetjoeblack]

On 11/14/2017 at 11:15 AM, ofd said:

Willpower requires repetition, because it can be trained.

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to read the book by Roy Baumeister.

 

I agree but, I would imagine a variety of elements are at work. Nature vs. nurture, environmental factors, genetics, etc. I think someone in an environment that is highly motivated can help boost one's motivation and willpower. I am not saying they become a workhorse but, definitely boost a deviation or so. Hard to quantify exactly but, it is a interesting feat. I read the book, "Talent is overrated" by Geoff Colvin. The book depicts world class while debunking the myth of people dismissing greatness as "talented" by pointing out the early beginnings. Starting at a young age, putting in countless hours builds up those neural pathways in the brain, and making that mind/body connection. The book does what all great books do in asking a question; what does world class talent require? It goes onto point out that a world class violinist has put in absurd amount of hours by the age of nine. Someone starting out much later in life would never be able to catch up. Someone like Sidney Crosby or Wayne Gretzky dismissed as world class talent but, it would then dismiss the time they spent playing pond ice hockey, stick handling, getting stronger, putting in the time, and becoming world class.

I think someone else could be putting in the time and not getting the result these men did but, the book put out a premise that was similar to that 10,000 hour route to world class. There is no escaping hard work even if "talented" at one's baseline. i believe willpower and motivation coincides with that driving force that got these people at practice waking up at 5am, eating healthy, training their mind, and body to fire at such a high level. It is a incredible read I highly recommend for anybody interested.

[ofd]

Quote

It is a incredible read I highly recommend for anybody interested.

Sounds like a great book to read. Thanks for the recommendation.

[barn]

Hi @RichardY

In acknowledging the trials you put me through (I consciously subscribed), thanks. Awesome stuff!

On 11/17/2017 at 12:40 AM, RichardY said:

Willpower requires....an Ethos (in the affirmative) ,which must be embodied(i.e not just some words or conceptual ideas. For example, holy sacrament or "service guarantees citizenship")  because the complexity of being is far greater than for any one person to comprehend.

Would I over simplify and loose meaning by saying you are essentially describing, the identity intrinsically present in any individual?

then

you adding a/'the' reason to why that's beneficial(more to come if you put the necessary work in)?

onto the next goodie..

On 11/17/2017 at 12:40 AM, RichardY said:

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial... 1) to not be vain. 2) live in a community that shares an Ethos.

I am sorry but logically it's impossible. The (1) I mean. I should have clarified that the goal DOES NOT justify the means. My bad, so you are technically right. (2),so true. A great multiplier, weeding out mechanism.

On 11/17/2017 at 12:40 AM, RichardY said:

Courage requires kindness.

Nope. How about it requiring fragility?

On 11/17/2017 at 12:40 AM, RichardY said:

Trials of Heracles.

I can name a dozen pop-culture references... quite sad, should brush up on my Greek-Roman mythology and 'real-thinkers'... wax-up & wax-down (karate kid) I'm totally murdering something here, I can sense it...

Joking aside. Yes, no conviction can come from lack of the taste of suffering. Aaand... thaks for the reminder. (Hat raise!)

On 11/17/2017 at 12:40 AM, RichardY said:

I tend to think of it as semaphores or valves in a way 1)Thinking & Feeling 2)Intuition & Sensing. But I guess with "The Big Five" can look at particular instances and consider ways of dealing with effects or not. Try to "optimise", as if designing an RPG (Roleplaying Game Character).

In general I'd suggest against flaming hopes of 'type-fluidity'. Why? Because the way I understand states exist as individual results stemming from a specific equations, resulting from INDEPENDENT set of variables that only share crossovers when the bloody consciousness meddles in. (i.e. processing stuff) If I'm honest, I'm also struggling simplifying this discreet thought, so please be gentle rebutting it.

You then so gracefully provided a well-intended breakdown of subtypes..

Cccan't go ttherre... must keep reality in one ppppiece...exhale  :-)

On 11/17/2017 at 12:40 AM, RichardY said:

Why covet willpower? multiplier factor?

No. It's the bridge (for a lack of better terms) between us and A.I.

 

Think of a vampire (morals, unlikely emotional involvement aside).

Indefinitely alive. Why live?

Willpower covers both the short and long term.

(but like I professed to you before, I have my selfish reasons too)

On 11/17/2017 at 12:40 AM, RichardY said:

Psalm 23

Was I supposed to be feeling gratefulness, being rewarded for a well earned gratification... say wisdom of humility?

Thanks for that specifically...

Batman out.

The concierge spilled some stuff over my latest stalagmite collection, gotta run...

Barnsley

[RichardY]

@barn 

NOTE: Highly fragmented, will edit and add to, posting as unsure of autosave and to maintain focus. Usually get a shotgun blast of an answer, that then fragments as I further get caught up in thought and distraction. (25/11/2017).

1st Edit (7/12/2017) 1) Will to Power(metaphysics, A then B, "B=B") 2) Update "Courage" section. 3) Type Fluidity/Freewill 4) Ghouls and Vampires 5) Psalm and "Needful Thing".

Psychological

On 11/21/2017 at 10:57 PM, barn said:

Hi @RichardY

In acknowledging the trials you put me through (I consciously subscribed), thanks. Awesome stuff!
Would I over simplify and loose meaning by saying you are essentially describing, the identity intrinsically present in any individual?

then

you adding a/'the' reason to why that's beneficial(more to come if you put the necessary work in)?

Identity & Ethos: Perhaps, I do not know. Though is the "I" defined as is, or is the "I" relative to the other? Perhaps the answer is that it can be either and that there are advantages and disadvantages to the consequential personality emergence. Though presumably if psychologically one believes they are adopting or reinforcing an Ethos to a higher authority, Freewill, God, Civic Nationalism,The Father, The Quantum God, The Area 51 God(Atheism), Determinism, Well being, Demolition Man, Enlightenment etc 

Willpower(unity) or Will to Power(fragmentary): 

To impose upon becoming(teleological) the character of being(Ontological)--that is the supreme will to power. Nietzsche.

“It has gradually become clear to me what every great philosophy up till now has consisted of – namely, the confession of its originator, and a species of involuntary and unconscious autobiography; and moreover that the moral (or immoral) purpose in every philosophy has constituted the true vital germ out of which the entire plant has always grown.” Nietzsche

Deontological (Duty/Moralists) ISTJ,  ESTJ, ISFJ, ESFJ, 

Teleological/Ontological (Will to Power): INTP

Teleological (Becoming) ENTJ, INTJ,

Ontological (Being) ENTP, ISTP, , ESTP, ISTP, INFJ, INFP, ENFP, ENFJ. ESFP.

 

On 11/21/2017 at 10:57 PM, barn said:

I am sorry but logically it's impossible. The (1) I mean. I should have clarified that the goal DOES NOT justify the means. My bad, so you are technically right. (2),so true. A great multiplier, weeding out mechanism.

(1)Vanity & (2)Community 

On 11/21/2017 at 10:57 PM, barn said:

Nope. How about it requiring fragility?

Courage: Looking at the concept of truth I have noticed perhaps archetypal "Significance" relating to the number 3.

"We Three Kings of Orient are"(or Magi) Baring gifts; Gold: Simpliticity, Sovereign(also a gold coin). Frankincense: Kindness, Noble(Frank). Myrrh: Humility.
"Lion, Scarecrow & Tin Man" Lion: "No Nerve", therefore kindness, Tin Man: "No Heart", therefore simplicity. Scarecrow: "No Brain", therefore humility.
Holy Trinity(Father, Son, Ghost)
Wednesday (Woden all Father). Mecredi in French (Occult figure Hermes "Thrice Great" Apparently....)
Daoist Three Treasures: Simplicity; "With which it is possible to be generous." Kindness; "With which it is possible to be courageous." Humility: "That one can lead." Verse 67 Tao Te Ching
"Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe" 

In what way could fragility be applicable? 

On 11/21/2017 at 10:57 PM, barn said:

I can name a dozen pop-culture references... quite sad, should brush up on my Greek-Roman mythology and 'real-thinkers'... wax-up & wax-down (karate kid) I'm totally murdering something here, I can sense it...

Joking aside. Yes, no conviction can come from lack of the taste of suffering. Aaand... thaks for the reminder. (Hat raise!)

Trials of Hercules:

On 11/21/2017 at 10:57 PM, barn said:

In general I'd suggest against flaming hopes of 'type-fluidity'. Why? Because the way I understand states exist as individual results stemming from a specific equations, resulting from INDEPENDENT set of variables that only share crossovers when the bloody consciousness meddles in. (i.e. processing stuff) If I'm honest, I'm also struggling simplifying this discreet thought, so please be gentle rebutting it.

You then so gracefully provided a well-intended breakdown of subtypes..

Cccan't go ttherre... must keep reality in one ppppiece...exhale  :-)

As you can see I'm also working through conceptual thought myself. "Fixed Variables", so perhaps the leopard does not change it's spots? (Interestingly from the bible).

Jeremiah 12:23

23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
24 Therefore will I scatter them as the stubble that passeth away by the wind of the wilderness.
25 This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the Lord; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.
26 Therefore will I discover thy skirts upon thy face, that thy shame may appear.

Keeping reality in one piece: Yeah my mind does go around in circles regarding "Freewill", must keep reality in one piece. If freewill is actual then reality can be other than it is, hence fragmenting. But is freewill actual? Or do people just rationalise after already making a decision unconsciously. If actual then who arbitrates?

 

On 11/21/2017 at 10:57 PM, barn said:

No. It's the bridge (for a lack of better terms) between us and A.I.
Think of a vampire (morals, unlikely emotional involvement aside).
Indefinitely alive. Why live?
Willpower covers both the short and long term.
(but like I professed to you before, I have my selfish reasons too)

Vampires. Perhaps have something to do with conscientiousness, there's a low conscientious aspect in that, they have no reflection tend to blend into the background, bloodlust, association with the darkside, not virtuous though sometimes, perhaps "necessary evil". Revere God. They become stronger when they are able repress their hunger, become weak when they indulge or succumb. If someone can't repress their hunger when converted, tend to become a ghoul. 
Indefinitely alive. Why live? To die would be easy, to live is hard. Maybe the better question would be how to live. looking for the "he who has a why can be bare any how". (ORIGINAL QUOTE "Twilight of the Idols" ->) - "If we have our own why in life, we shall get along with almost any how. Man does not strive for pleasure; only the Englishman does."
Willpower Short vs Long Term: So how do you distinguish between Long and Short term Willpower?
 

@barn Psalm 23 A reference to @Mishi2 saying that willpower "requires a want" when in fact that may not be necessary. There are after all plenty of "Needful Things" that people may want, but not exactly helping in the willpower department.

@barn reading your following post in the thread about Ethos; identity, ideals, courage and conviction. Is interesting. Perhaps can get a thread going on Ethos specifically, kind of the foundation. 

 

[barn]

... keep it coming, reload that trusty sawed off 'loudspeaker' of yours, I'll signal if to me the 'prey seems to be unaffected' ...

Regarding this "snipet",

16 hours ago, RichardY said:

Perhaps, I do not know. Though is the "I" defined as is, or is the "I" relative to the other?

after me having replied that :

On 11/21/2017 at 11:57 PM, barn said:

Would I over simplify and loose meaning by saying you are essentially describing, the identity intrinsically present in any individual?

to this orinal response of yours :

On 11/21/2017 at 11:57 PM, barn said:

Willpower requires....an Ethos (in the affirmative) ,which must be embodied(i.e not just some words or conceptual ideas. For example, holy sacrament or "service guarantees citizenship")  because

So here's how I see numbers for example. They are useful abstractions, though don't physically existing. When we use them, manipulate using their concepts we 'personalise' them. Because if you compare my concept of infinite, what and how it pops into your mind is different to mine and vice versa. Their mathematical value remains (of course) but you might see an ever expanding hotel chain(khmTrump) , while I loathe the smart parents of my date for allowing me to sit only half a distance closer each time I meet with their daughter compared to the last occasion.

The moment you internalised / living the function of a concept, you personalised it. The effects don't change the original 'value' but the unique choices you make using them distinguish you from everyone else.

Tieing it back:

The closer the options that certain identities allow for, the easier to then identify with/create an Ethos around them,(to the observer) the easier to regard the manifestation of certain traits of that 'story' as unique qualities of an Ethos having an influence on the participants.

But perhaps you can see why I think Ethos is born from the realisation of personal choice, birth of identity = choice. It's then maintained through consistency and integrity, especially when the Ethos evolves, people abandon.. etc.

1. It's all 'from below-up' organisation.

and such

2. Mixing with / new information requires the building blocks transform or exit.

so it's

3. Enduring if it's established on virtues (ideals that require hard work and dedication while can't be fully reached) because those won't change over time and their effects only increase over time.

Barnsley

[ShindouHikaru]

"You could try the two-week posture experiment to improve your own willpower, or you could try other

The key is to concentrate on changing a habitual behavior.

One simple way to start is by using a different hand for routine tasks. Many habits are linked to your dominant hand. Right-handed people, in particular, tend to use their right hands for all sorts of things without giving the matter the slightest thought. Making yourself switch to your left hand is thus an exercise in self-control. You can resolve to use your left hand instead of your habitual right hand for brushing your teeth, using a computer mouse, opening doors, or lifting a cup to your lips. If it seems too onerous to do this all day, try it for a set period. Some research studies have assigned people to switch hands between eight A.M. and eight P.M. This lets people revert to their familiar habits in the evening, when they are already physically tired and mentally depleted from the day’s activities".

 

"Parents can guide them through the kind of willpower-strengthening exercises we’ve discussed earlier, like taking care to sit up straight, to always speak grammatically, to avoid starting sentences with “I,” and to never say “yeah” for “yes.” Anything that forces children to exercise their self-control muscle can be helpful: taking music lessons, memorizing poems, saying prayers, minding their table manners, avoiding the use of profanity, writing thank-you notes". 

Excerpts from, Willpower: Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength -  Roy F. Baumeister, John Tierney

[barn]

27 minutes ago, ShindouHikaru said:

The key is to concentrate on changing a habitual behavior.

I think you miss-read/internalised or perhaps extrapolated too broadly, given the purpose... examples below.

Dear @ShindouHikaru

 

1. Please say what YOU believe (preferably practice too)... I kindly request, if I may. I am interested in your own thoughts / thoughts you hold valuable and aren't quotations, necessarily(I love A.I. don't get me wrong, but want to speak with humans). I'm grateful for your input, just wondering retention, caveats, 'personal colours' all the good stuff. RTR basically.

a. Would you like to use the 'format' facilitated at the beginning of the thread?

2. My aim is for a better understanding of the source, reinforcement(s) / dynamics are secondary furthermore (the way I see it) dependent on the quality of the primary goal's integrity... though indicative(nevertheless lower in the logical hierarchy).

i.e.: ( Circumventing using recipes of large leaps with shortcuts, deals worse long term consequences than inching in the direction that gives you more understanding (gradually) of the itinerary for your journey you had set out to explore. Does it not?! )

27 minutes ago, ShindouHikaru said:

changing a habitual behavior.

I didn't say I wished to change.

You're right, there are things I am working on, making them better.

It's sad to live a life reactionary like. This doesn't work, I do that. More of this? Do that!...

Where I'm coming from IS:

What if you SAW where the answers were locked up/awaited and you could work hard to deserve their trials, happily reconnecting with the source AT THE ORIGIN... goosebumps?

Do stuff, say things!

I will always listen if you do virtuosly,

Regards,

Barnsley

P.S: No clue who you 'is', reciprocity really...

You might want to learn about how synaptic wiring meddles in kinaesthetic cognitive functions.

Practical example: Take a pen and paper. Write a question at the top, (set a countdown to 3 minutes) you seek breakthrough/epiphany and change writing hands (notice how I didn't establish right/left prominence? Anyhow, use 'the other hand' once you secured 'the question'). Write constantly during the time frame, anything that comes. Anything. Doodles too... keep it flowing.

Finally, be prepared to be blown away by the outcome.

[barn]

20 hours ago, RichardY said:

Willpower(unity) or Will to Power(fragmentary): 

I immensely applauded  you time and time again when reading.

No. Disregard will to power.

(hawk eyes)

Barnsley

[barn]

20 hours ago, RichardY said:

Courage: Three Kings, Daoist Three Treasures, Wizard of Oz "Lion", 3 as archetypal number for truth? , Lion Witch and the Wardrobe(not read), Wodensday "All Father", Mecredi Mercury, or Hermes in Greek, Holy Trinity: God the Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost.

Yes. Bloody three's (recurring theme, just as entropy...).

Perhaps it helps if I stated:

'Teaching the youth about the existence of monsters isn't to raise awareness of the dangers/elevate the main character but to introduce concepts of 'counterforces' and the endless sea of possibilities/opening dialogue (from a very young age) you can only get by acquiring curiosity.'

Courage stems from conviction. Conviction from the same source as willpower. Am I going astray, here?!

Barnsley

[barn]

Hey there @RichardY

My constructive intentions (those are colours) going forward.. (feel free to subscribe to them, or not)

Brown (I .) - If I am correctly projecting into the future(humorously a smidgen), your long post is due to be completed in the next 'eon' +/- an eternity & a blink. Do you think we could shave off just a little bit? May I ask that we do that?

Ruby (II.) - Would you say it could work to place new, relatively lower priority ideas/concepts on a parking orbit (we agree to come back to it later) and pursue the main path with 'less stuff in our backpacks'? May I ask that we do that or something that nets a near identical outcome?

It's 'cos I know myself enough to not give into 'fragmentation' and at the same time I also wish to retain my intellectual integrity towards you, aiming for (rather) quality responses/additions. And I know I won't be able to do 'dat' if I am to partake in the current trend. Sorry.

Sand (III .) - Quotation are fine I suppose, though they come with the potential of 'interpretation cost' and the obvious nature of them being 'reduced to the core' which is also fine, I guess.

What I'm saying is that I don't necessarily experience (see, no judgement on you, it's my perception) YOU IN YOUR POSTS as much as I would desire to. I am perfectly fine with people using their own words more often, trusting that their partner(s) will seek common understanding, signaling if feeling left behind. (ultimately that's my main GIST for 'ya kind Sir!)

Wabalabadubdub ?! ?! ?!

Barnsley

Edited December 8, 2017 by barn
synaesthesia a bit

[RichardY]

@barn Brown (I .) - If I am correctly projecting into the future(humorously a smidgen), your long post is due to be completed in the next 'eon' +/- an eternity & a blink. Do you think we could shave off just a little bit? May I ask that we do that?  -  Test of Willpower? Yeah I did think about replying/updating sooner. I guess if you already know what your ethos is, opportunity costs are apparent. "Is there something else you'd rather be doing then marching up and down the square??? My mind is a bit tied up thinking about a trip I have planned to Switzerland and Germany on the 13th

I agree that willpower requires "integration at heart"(Or Ethos), as opposed to exercising the "Forbidden Donut"/Marshmellow test. I can see the rationale for the later, build the neocortex as if it is some kind of muscle, wire in more fibres, get really good at resisting that Donut. I guess that would make the people with the most willpower anorexics.

 Ruby (II.) - Would you say it could work to place new, relatively lower priority ideas/concepts on a parking orbit (we agree to come back to it later) and pursue the main path with 'less stuff in our backpacks'? May I ask that we do that or something that nets a near identical outcome?

It's 'cos I know myself enough to not give into 'fragmentation' and at the same time I also wish to retain my intellectual integrity towards you, aiming for (rather) quality responses/additions. And I know I won't be able to do 'dat' if I am to partake in the current trend. Sorry.

I think there are situations when fragmentation can be useful. There is something called "Professional Blindness"(saw it on a documentary once, talking about sports) where consciousness is temporarily suspended (usually in conditions of "stress" or traffic collisions for instance) leading to various performance gains. True Multi-tasking. Yeah you have only one voice, one train of consciousness, but multiple limbs.

I think hiving off topics into different threads; such as Courage, An Ethos, etc may be a better way, can focus on key components one at a time. But yes I know the feeling of having too much stuff in a backpack or usually in "my mind" will sometimes/often have 20 Tabs + open on chrome.

 Sand (III .) - Quotation are fine I suppose, though they come with the potential of 'interpretation cost' and the obvious nature of them being 'reduced to the core' which is also fine, I guess.

What I'm saying is that I don't necessarily experience (see, no judgement on you, it's my perception) YOU IN YOUR POSTS as much as I would desire to. I am perfectly fine with people using their own words more often, trusting that their partner(s) will seek common understanding, signaling if feeling left behind. (ultimately that's my main GIST for 'ya kind Sir!)

Not much of a me really, fairly base. I like considering some of the psychological implications in philosophy. I think it would be better if people posted passages from various books they have read so I can gauge the quality, albeit from my opinion.

Needful things: Yeah I have seen the Rick and Morty(Back to the Future Connection?) episode on Youtube, tendency to be interested in the absurd sometimes. The movie was better though, haven't seen it in over a decade, instead of cursing items "the devil" "gets" people to kill each other. So A and B don't get on, so he get C to play a "trick on A or B", so A thinks its B. I don't think it technically violates UPB, though I will read it again, always thought the bit where it mentioned pushing someone into a canyon because they asked, pretty odd. Though in "the movies"(yeah its a movie, but still psychological warfare on the unconscious, if you believe in such a thing, Kant's goodwill.)"The Jackal" (quick stand over by the car before you passout) and "Bane" use similar tactics.

Wabalabadubdub

Hey! rub-a-dub, ho! rub-a-dub, three maids in a tub,
And who do you think were there?
The butcher, the baker, the candlestick-maker,
And all of them gone to the fair.

Low Conscientiousness.