ProRational Posted December 7, 2017 Posted December 7, 2017 I will open up by saying if something isn't broke don't fix it (the marriage of Christian's and the stance taken against seeking hedonistic pleasure) It's not an issue of God, when I mentioned "the question is not where was God when the Holocaust happened, it is where was humanity" it is not a question of which God one serves it is a question of Human's of human's being human's. Consider a person prone to take advantage of individuals (politics, social welfare, mental health, family, religion) will more times than not do just that and in such events, and will use their power dynamic to manipulate individuals in such situations. Furthermore it can also be a situation that is often based of necessity or lack of communication. I had a quasi-spiritualistic father who claimed how bad Christians were, and with that high moral ground hated Christians with the same visceral contention that he claimed he was against. Funny thing is he's a Democrat now (or at least when I last saw the old cunt). Funny thing is he fought against the democrats in the south (which long used the mark of Cain to justify slavery) only to fall victim to their lies on Socialism. If anything religion in particular Judaeo-Christian faiths had set a frame work that works for the family dynamic, starting with the sacred institution of marriage between a man and a woman, in which the popular atheism of the Communist regime saw as a direct threat to the totalitarian government that used a high moral and scientific stance of knowledge over faith. I will encourage anyone to look at North Korea and why a Minister can serve a life sentence for leaving a bible in a apartment drawer. Judaeo-Christian faiths set a conservative frame work for what works in a society. Now in our country couples marry early and in the pursuit of a pseudo-happiness leave each other instead of working things out. While a man can copulate with a woman, it is not actual love which is doing what is best for those you love even when it hurts you in the end, still his responsibility to aid in that child's life. People now instead of pursuing a working relationship, men testing to see if they love the women, and women not choosing a bread winner that they can be satisfied on more than financial stability or personality level, are pursuing a hedonistic life style in which the direct result is the decay of a society or community. The punishment for unbridled pleasure (sin) is pain. It is a pain that is felt in the community as well as the generations to come. So again it comes down to a matter of transparency not just morals. Just like the Democratic socialist's now have a floundering moral high ground, a faith community must maintain that unchanged moral stance in the face of adversity. Christian's in some aspects were likened to the light of the world and when the light is extinguished or hidden other's were left without guidance. If Jesus said it is better for a weight to be put about a man's neck and for him to be cast into the sea than for him to harm a child, and the Roman Catholic church hid this for many years they hid the light of Christ and set the Church into darkness (or better a situation of not adhering to the scriptures and not maintaining what they stood for). The first sign of a communistic type presence in a given society is the increasing popularity of Atheism (in which the young generation of the 60's and 70's tried to fight against institutionalized tradition) only to fall prey to communist ideals. Look at Saul Alinsky, look at how the SDS formed into the weathermen and later the underground. Also the one driving factor that radicalized individuals in the SDS was their hedonistic tendencies, it was not necessarily the man shutting down their protests so much as it was their public nudity and open display of drugs.
Tyler H Posted December 7, 2017 Posted December 7, 2017 @Mishi2 Ok, so our common ground is reason and evidence; how do I get to the existence of God from there?
M.2 Posted December 7, 2017 Posted December 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Tyler H said: @Mishi2 Ok, so our common ground is reason and evidence; how do I get to the existence of God from there? If you like evidence more, I will direct you to the miracles of Fatima, the most well documented series of miracles in history. If you like reason more, I like the Cosmological Argument of St Thomas Aquinas (Five arguments for the existence of God, Summa Theologiae). There are many ways down this rabbit hole. With respect to the topic of this thread, I would't want to discuss this with you here, but if you open a new thread, I would be happy to.
Jsbrads Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 The Inquisition was wrong. so what? so was the murder of hundreds of millions by the hand of atheistic communists.
Tyler H Posted December 11, 2017 Posted December 11, 2017 20 hours ago, Jsbrads said: The Inquisition was wrong. so what? so was the murder of hundreds of millions by the hand of atheistic communists. It wasn’t their atheism at the foundation of their homicidal insanity. Their god was the state. A rejection of reason led to the inquisition and a rejection of reason led to the atrocities of communism. Both are dangerous because their methodolgies are incorrect. They are not based on objective fact leaving them open to manipulation by sophists claiming to speak for the abstract entity it’s followers are indoctrinated to obey. On 12/7/2017 at 6:15 PM, Mishi2 said: If you like evidence more, I will direct you to the miracles of Fatima, the most well documented series of miracles in history. I couldn’t find where the causal link between the phenomena and God was found. Perhaps you could direct me to that data? Throw it in the new thread and I’ll take a look at the work of Thomas Aquinas you referenced and post my thoughts there.
Jsbrads Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 Atheism was a major part of their homocidal insanity. The denouncement of God was too exposing to their psyche. Their acceptance of the unquestioned state authority and their permission to the state to operate without reservation was specifically due to their atheism. Both emotionally and rationally they argued for the autonomy of the state to operate without moral limits.
Tyler H Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Jsbrads said: Atheism was a major part of their homocidal insanity. The denouncement of God was too exposing to their psyche. Their acceptance of the unquestioned state authority and their permission to the state to operate without reservation was specifically due to their atheism. Both emotionally and rationally they argued for the autonomy of the state to operate without moral limits. If there’s an argument in there I’m unable to extract it. How does an absence of belief in a deity cause people to kill? I can tell you how a belief in a deity does; someone claiming to speak for the deity says, “the deity orders us to kill these people”, so people who believe that deity to exist, to be all powerful, and to be deserving of their obedience go and do it.
Spiritual-Autarky Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 With No undue offense This doesn't topic worhty of keeping open, becasue the OP is trying tt pontificate an emnotial postin instead of abotu the sturcutr of seem like serious question at all.... A seriosu woudl ask abotu the struture of "RELIGION" and seuge it into concepts of God.. The OP doesn't , And this isn't the first time has doen this oddly either! This is worded like it was ritten by angsty that didn't get his favorite toy for Christmas and is blaming "God" in some angsty (???) Not the that someone with the TRUE fruits of "gnosis" ought do. Only a disingeoius would do as so Please take action to close this thread. Thank yo
Jsbrads Posted December 17, 2017 Posted December 17, 2017 Based on history we can empirically see that people who abandon the morality of their fathers without a valid replacement, that they are not only capable, but very likely to behave in a less moral way than other people who are constrained by morality even if that moral system is imperfect. Moral systems may be evolutionary even if their adherents believe it is from God, and it is very rare that people abandon the morality they held for centuries if someone says let’s murder in the name of God. Amoral, scientific claims have convinced people to engage in behavior that moral systems would find abhorrent. communism being the biggest, but not the only case. Nazis. Margaret Sanger and many doctors in US, and other countries engaged in genetic cleansing operations. Japan also believed that they were racially superior...
Tyler H Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 22 hours ago, Jsbrads said: Based on history we can empirically see that people who abandon the morality of their fathers without a valid replacement, that they are not only capable, but very likely to behave in a less moral way than other people who are constrained by morality even if that moral system is imperfect. Moral systems may be evolutionary even if their adherents believe it is from God, and it is very rare that people abandon the morality they held for centuries if someone says let’s murder in the name of God. What does rejecting your father’s morals have to do with atheism? Atheism is not a moral system, nor does it preclude one. If atheism is can exist within moral and immoral systems, how could it be causal in either? It is a state of belief consistent with reality, nothing more and nothing less. 22 hours ago, Jsbrads said: Amoral, scientific claims have convinced people to engage in behavior that moral systems would find abhorrent. Could you provide a more specific example? Which scientific claim is causally linked to which behavior that which moral system finds abhorrent? 22 hours ago, Jsbrads said: communism being the biggest, but not the only case. Nazis. Margaret Sanger and many doctors in US, and other countries engaged in genetic cleansing operations. Japan also believed that they were racially superior... Nazism actually contradicts your point. Nazis were Christians. Part of Hitler’s propaganda campaign against the Jews included accusations of orchestrating the Bolshevik takeover in Russia which slaughtered the religious. Spreading fear to ensure the support of the German people; that they must act first to protect themselves or suffer the same fate. Why did the German’s adherence to the Christian moral system not prevent the slaughter of innocent people?
Jsbrads Posted December 18, 2017 Posted December 18, 2017 The Christian system precludes murder. Nazis weren’t Christian, they tried to revive pagan ideology. The wholesale murder of undesirables in Leftists arenas, like Nazis, Commies, Abortion Mills and other similar trends which included the sterilization of people in the US. Atheism doesn’t mean someone can’t also have a moral system. Merely that atheism is almost unequivocally paired with a rejection of the prior established system. And in the vast majority of the time, those people don’t have a moral system.
Tyler H Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 On 12/18/2017 at 5:58 PM, Jsbrads said: Nazis weren’t Christian You must have different data then I do, please share. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany
M.2 Posted December 21, 2017 Posted December 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Tyler H said: You must have different data then I do, please. Nazi and German must not be conflated unless you are in a cheap hollywood bastardisation of history. Wehrmacht is not Nazi either, but the SS are by the way. According to your reasoning, the polish united workers party were all devout roman catholics.
ProRational Posted December 23, 2017 Posted December 23, 2017 On 12/12/2017 at 1:37 PM, Tyler H said: If there’s an argument in there I’m unable to extract it. How does an absence of belief in a deity cause people to kill? I can tell you how a belief in a deity does; someone claiming to speak for the deity says, “the deity orders us to kill these people”, so people who believe that deity to exist, to be all powerful, and to be deserving of their obedience go and do it. It was at the hands of using science and psychology to push atheism and force the few remaining religious churches to become symbiotic parasites with the state, it was not the leader but the hands of the intellectually misguided that pushed for the slaughter. Again death of morals and ethics in a country that promised utopia. Morals are only good if a society maintains them. Like the analogy of Christians being the light of a country once a christian leadership takes a stance to silence something bad to prevent a black eye they let the interior erode from with in (an apple rots from it core). Science is quite funny because it has been used for both great and horrific things, same with psychology. One can say the same for See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil, it was the indifference of the three that caused evil not just the evil acts performed. It is indifference as well as a moral laxity that causes such states. Furthermore, it is also the inability to not say it like it is, that causes this indifference. If abortion was justified by the 1% outliers, it would be because no one shut up the liberal who said but I was raped (while this is a terrible crime, she did a far worse crime which is murder). Morals are necessary to foster the continuation of a society not just legally but ethically as well. Religion was for the longest time a system to maintain guidance for the average citizen, but if the majority of them forget their humanity as well as the humanity of those around them, then you have the holocaust, da'esh slaughtering entire towns because they are not of their tribe, you have the Hutus slaughtering tootsies, you have a large group of people who failed to take a stand and went with societal hysteria (of which science and psychology had a part) to achieve the greatest atrocities of mankind.
ProRational Posted December 23, 2017 Posted December 23, 2017 On 12/21/2017 at 8:44 AM, Mishi2 said: Nazi and German must not be conflated unless you are in a cheap hollywood bastardisation of history. Wehrmacht is not Nazi either, but the SS are by the way. According to your reasoning, the polish united workers party were all devout roman catholics. Nazi's were not Catholic by any right. Himmler was a progressive in Hitlers party who was a devote occultist, why do you think the Nazis bastardized the word Aryan of which they had no understanding of the Aryan race, the German people upon it being to late due to the lack of a spine gave the Nazi party a good rise to power, and found its true colors when little Hans could turn in mama or papa into the Gestapo for not being Pro-Reich enough, or how about the MVD, KGB, NKVD, who silenced any criticism of the leadership or governmental policies. Again the hysteria of the masses, who were indoctrinated by science, and psychology. Just as today we do not hear the word caliphate in grade school in the U.S. we heard no mention of Umyyad or Saladin, yet we learned of the Crusades as being violent Catholics who took the east by storm, only to fold their bloody hands and kneel waist high in blood.
Recommended Posts