Robert Kiyosaki's book - Rich Dad Poor Dad - caveats

[barn]

Hi all,

I've read the book and it's companion (Cashflow) and that's how I got introduced to the concepts of 'borrowing your way out', 'delayed gratification', 'gaming the system', 'passive income'... many more.

Those two books were and are a fascinating read with a lingering sense of a 'humble mentor' backing you intellectually while you get familiar with concepts rarely discussed in that particular form. Read them if you can.

I however think his methodology (maybe that's why I'm not a millionaire with a huge debt also) is for the blunt, courageous, risk-taker who also tries to minimise the fallout to a degree.

My aim here is to discuss caveats, useful reminders further aiding inoculation against zealous belief, cult-like attitude regarding his catchy but risky ideas put forward.

Barnsley

[Spladam]

G'day Barnsley,

Caveats in order:

1. Why would a rich person want to help others get rich? Doing so could create a threat to their wealth especially if they spawn a competitor from their teachings. It would make sense to mislead others, which could be exactly what this book is for. (Just a conspiracy for now).

2. His ideas worked for him during the 70's and 80's. What worked then in business is probably not going to work now, but it really depends on what the method is and how it is applied.

3. There are new factors in business now that never existed before, crypto-currency and online banks are a great example. 

4. Depending on where you live, his advice may be useless. Chances are, if you live in a western nation his advice is definitely gold. 

 

That being said, I have read 3 of his books and so far it seems like they are really great at clarifying things in a very easy to understand manner. I don't think there is really anything that bad about his books, except for the 17th chapter in "The Business of the 21st Century" book, which is dedicated to 'how great women are and how hard men make the world for them' BS. His work is very reliable IMHO.

 

Cheers,

Spladam

[barn]

Hi @Spladam

Your inputs are appreciated, particularly had an inkling with

2 hours ago, Spladam said:

2. His ideas worked for him during the 70's and 80's.

and

2 hours ago, Spladam said:

3. There are new factors in business now

I am curious. Would you, say in broad terms agree with "amass debt to become rich" can be a wise business decision?

Barnsley

[Spladam]

Just now, barn said:

Would you, say in broad terms agree with "amass debt to become rich" can be a wise business decision?

Well, if you're accumulating your own debt then obviously no. Haha.

If we're talking about buying debt, then it really depends. I own some of another companies debt but it's not much and I'm not well-versed in debt accumulation. There are different instruments that can be used to amass the debt of others: stocks, bonds, loans, mutual funds, etc. It's usually in the form of some paper investment. For example, China has bought some of the US national debt. In other words, the US is basically owing China and China gets the principal back, plus interest, back from the US (by a certain time frame, or whatever the agreed timing is) all because they bought debt! Buying debt however holds a risk. It may never get paid back and you will have just lost all that money. You can play it safe in the debt buying game and buy debt which has low interest rates but high return reliability, or high interest rates with low return reliability. It's basically gambling unless you do insider trading which is illegal (well, in Australia it is). 

Hope that helps!

[barn]

Thanks, I had considered various investments back in the day and settled investing into myself until I got smarter... I still don't consider myself smart enough, still investing in the same.

3 hours ago, Spladam said:

Well, if you're accumulating your own debt then obviously no. Haha.

Can I infer, the debts of others falls into a different category according to you? The 'can do' category?

Would you say that relationships, most prominently friendships are also investments?

Barnsley

[Spladam]

Just now, barn said:

Thanks, I had considered various investments back in the day and settled investing into myself until I got smarter... I still don't consider myself smart enough, still investing in the same.

Well, at least you've started. The best time to start investing was 10 years ago. The second best time is today.

Just now, barn said:

Can I infer, the debts of others falls into a different category according to you? The 'can do' category?

Yeah, basically other people's debts turn into loans/stocks/bonds/etc.. when they are bought by someone else (eg: you). However, this could also become your own debt if the original debt holder doesn't pay you back.

Just now, barn said:

Would you say that relationships, most prominently friendships are also investments?

Absolutely yes! Friendships or any other type of mutually beneficial relationship is an investment. It's usually not a monetary investment, but it is just as important for building wealth. A guy called Robert Metcalfe (the guy who made ethernet and founder of 3Com) made an equation for the wealth of friendships: V=N^2. V=value of network, N=number of folk in network. The term network refers to a network of people, eg: a friend group. According to this equation, the internet is the most important network from a wealth building perspective. Companies who use the internet to gain wealth will probably out-compete companies that do not. This si why I think mainstream media will either need to adapt or die.

It doesn't necessarily have to be friendship or whatever, the people in the network need to be of a certain mindset as well. The above equation is in relation to the poential value of that network, not its actual potential. The actual potential is determined by many other factors (eg: whether or not the group promotes a positive growth mindset or not). 

Also, just because you have lots of people in that network, it doesn't mean that network is worth a whole lot. If I'm part of a network of established CEO's, then that network will be more valuable than a network of 20 year old jocks from University (if my goal is to build wealth). This is also determined by how you go about building wealth too. A network of established CEO's is not going to be of much use if your method for building wealth is by being a business mentor and helping others to grow. In this case, the group of University Jocks would be a much more valuable network.

Also, a network could also be a liability if you have the wrong people. A bunch of communists in your network won't help with building wealth. 

Overall, I think the best network to have is one where there is a great variety of people who are all willing to put the effort in to work together. They have to be willing to work together and have a positive growth mindset, otherwise they could just be a liability. 

 

Sorry for blabbering on, haha,

Spladam

[Spladam]

Also @barn, how much business books do you read?

I found that with any business book author, their work is great when combined with other works. If you read stuff from Tony Robbins, he aims at the self-esteem side of things, Robert Kiyosaki with the mindset side of things, Russel Brunson with the 'how to do it, step by step' side of things. None of these guys are perfect really.

I'm not sure if you've noticed that as well, but let me know if you have

 

[barn]

1 minute ago, Spladam said:

I'm not sure if you've noticed that as well, but let me know if you have

[I'll have to digest what you provided, will write on some of the topics later, but wanted to give you a quick update first.]

Some of the hard lessons I encountered...

Books are only sold if they are a good read for the target audience. (No badly written books ever became influencers of life changing decisions.) So what you read in any book is always geared towards something while intentionally distanced from it's anti-thesis. Not being aware of that is just as well 'fandom'.

People respond to incentives. More of the positive scenarios they experience the more strong the link becomes, insulating them from trying to experience deviations. (Itself it's neutral : equally can be a positive or a negative. Only depending on your values what you perceive worth to you = direction you are 'travelling'.) +Probably you remember me asking you about age&breaking habits correlation. So add that here, also.

When I first started living the ideas I had been able to retain (retention is another huge issue - later... ) it quickly dawned on me:

- The CEO of my company wasn't happy and willing to fail steadily (at varying degrees, but in creative new ways... sarcasm,creatively :-) while maintaining a high enough morale. He seemed to shrink over time.  

- The CEO also was continously baffled at how 'stupid' people were to not see the brilliance and novelty we'd been promising and why everyone was so suspicious all the time.

- He frequently sighed while saying to himself the phrase: "Are there no more reliable people left in the world?"

- Upon finally realising, a product is 5%, marketing & sales account for 95% was the last blow and he withdrew... His reasoning was, I'm the CEO, no salesperson... I have no experience selling things. I lead people. Can't work with sub-par professionals.

I guess you figured out, that CEO was me. I just thought it would be easier to depict my view on my lessons through a story, in the third person.

Don't think of anything big or fancy but I learned valuable lessons. Books are just books.

Think of this. If your life was your Company, You need the best CEO you can get. The type that can sell(convince), motivate(focus/guide), persevere(eyes on the ball) and understands that without failing enough there's no true learning, retention...

What would you be able to do if you were that person in charge of your life-company?

Barnsley

 

[Spladam]

Just now, barn said:

I guess you figured out, that CEO was me. I just thought it would be easier to depict my view on my lessons through a story, in the third person.

Wow, I did not see that coming... what were you CEO of? 

[barn]

2 hours ago, Spladam said:

Wow, I did not see that coming... what were you CEO of? 

Hahaha! No, you misunderstood or I wasn't clear.

Probably the later. Yeah, the later. My bad.

I tried to tell you some of my amateur experiences about running things in small(I do have some experience, though very limited) as if I had contracted someone 'ought to be a real CEO'. My idea was that in that way I was going to be able to better show you/'transmit' what few valuable experience I gained. I wasn't a big CEO. (nevertheless I think you should treat yourself with that seriousness in any of your own endeavours anyway.)

Sorry for that!

Besides, did you get what I probably learned by doing things and how reading books related to that?

Barnsley

[barn]

On 11/23/2017 at 11:38 PM, Spladam said:

Well, at least you've started. The best time to start investing was 10 years ago. The second best time is today.

True. I think of it in 3s, as the second one the last time I thought about it and the third right now! (making connection with my personal experiences help me remember more details, hopefully learn more)

Nathaniel Branden - Sentence completion

It is making me reflect a lot lately, recommend it wholeheartedly.

On 11/23/2017 at 11:38 PM, Spladam said:

Yeah, basically other people's debts turn into loans/stocks/bonds/etc.. when they are bought by someone else (eg: you). However, this could also become your own debt if the original debt holder doesn't pay you back.

Would you say, that by taking over other people's debts they don't have to experience the negative consequences of their bad decisions? In a sense they cheat 'being wrong'?

On 11/23/2017 at 11:38 PM, Spladam said:

Friendships or any other type of mutually beneficial relationship is an investment.

So my next question about friendship is, what happens when you loose your investment? Same as in buying up someone's debt who don't delivers?

My view on it is that it's almost as good if it(investment) comes to fruition, but much worse when doesn't (easier to recover money, but you'll never forget a betrayal)... my take, anyway.

On 11/23/2017 at 11:38 PM, Spladam said:

A guy called Robert Metcalfe (the guy who made ethernet and founder of 3Com) made an equation for the wealth of friendships: V=N^2. V=value of network, N=number of folk in network. The term network refers to a network of people, eg: a friend group. According to this equation, the internet is the most important network from a wealth building perspective.

I am not as good at specifics, so I praise you for providing the referential, much appreciated. (I remembered it as 'in theory, you can get in touch with anyone in the world through a max of 5 individuals') 

On 11/23/2017 at 11:38 PM, Spladam said:

The actual potential is determined by many other factors (eg: whether or not the group promotes a positive growth mindset or not). 

You might be mesmerised by how aptly the PARETO PRINCIPLE describe worth in correlation with 'base of producers'. I occasionally wonder if it has anything to do with an 'unknown dynamic, God in the gaps... etc' and it's 'sense of humour'. Even entropy? but in an orderly fashion? Someone is obsessed about micromanagement. Haha. Nevertheless it's observable, going back in time too. (~80/~20)

For an experiment : Is it true that you wrote the 80% of your posts to 20% of the people you came in contact with?

On 11/23/2017 at 11:38 PM, Spladam said:

. If I'm part of a network of established CEO's, then that network will be more valuable than a network of 20 year old jocks from University

Aaaand... do you see now, why I think it matters little what group you're in but what value you contribute in actual terms?

Reverse that and say, you're the individual who's leaving might reduce the total worth of a group by a factor or two? (you'd probably want to leave that group as it 'needs' you more than you 'need' them)

It's an idea. Don't get obsessed with it, but keep it in mind! (telling myself, really)

On 11/23/2017 at 11:38 PM, Spladam said:

Overall, I think the best network to have is one where there is a great variety of people who are all willing to put the effort in to work together. They have to be willing to work together and have a positive growth mindset, otherwise they could just be a liability. 

Variety, great. That means responsiveness(flexibility = adaptation). Common ground = fantastic, it simplifying communication, increasing effectiveness... these are all great goals to have, wonderful ideals, perfect plans.

Barnsley

[barn]

On 11/23/2017 at 7:11 AM, Spladam said:

1. Why would a rich person want to help others get rich? Doing so could create a threat to their wealth especially if they spawn a competitor from their teachings. It would make sense to mislead others, which could be exactly what this book is for. (Just a conspiracy for now).

I always had the sense that he wasn't truly honest. (my personal assertion)

In life, I try to follow the same principle to share whomever likes 'equilaterally' hence we're sharing ideas. But when I remember multi-level marketing course realms... I find it hard to distinguish him from other 'movement initiators' telling you half the truth / price you need to pay.

Although I would only go as far as he's always keeping his best cards for himself. Can't blame him for that, he's an un-feeling businessman.

(in my perception)

Barnsley

Edited November 24, 2017 by barn
specifying equilateral

[Spladam]

8 hours ago, barn said:

I always had the sense that he wasn't truly honest. (my personal assertion)

Check out Robert's Wikipedia page. Look under "Criticism and Controversy". 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kiyosaki

[wyattstorch]

I found some helpful ideas in RDPD, even if the existence of the "Rich Dad" himself was called into question. But there are reasons why some people are employees, and some people aren't. So if I were to recommend the book, I'd also counter-balance that recommendation with Michael Gerber's THE E-MYTH REVISITED: WHY MOST SMALL BUSINESSES DON'T WORK AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT.

https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Revisited-Small-Businesses-About-ebook/dp/B000RO9VJK/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511896445&sr=1-1&keywords=e-+myth+revisited

[barn]

Thank you @wyattstorch

That's exactly what I had in mind when creating the thread. Vvvery constructive! I'm sure I'll learn new things.

If you have an inkling to something down-to-earth entrepreneurial : Not a huge follower anymore (got tired of too much PC attitude) but I benefited anno a lot from a YouTube channel called - Video Creators - (the guy's called Tim) and their two books I've read, taken certain elements to practice.

(RD / the teacher / mentor... somehow I never got the sense of a real person, but a necessary cliché fitting neatly in the scenery... similar in some way creating greater freedom of expression, no boundaries just ideals, mixing - inflating realities... etc. a technique. Doesn't matter as long as people remember it's a book, (well) written by a human.)

P.s.: there's a longer response awaiting the thumbs up in 'Koestler' (being a rookie 'n all here)

Barnsley

[wyattstorch]

You're welcome, Barn. I wish I had read those two books in reverse, myself! My initial personal venture as an artist was premature, as I had a lot to learn about the entrepreneurial mindset before. (That distinction I learned from E-MYTH, i.e., if you're a baker, you're in the business of baking, not necessarily in the business of the bakery...his example of the skilled practioner complaining that they could run the business better, but trying to approach that from as a craftsperson, not necessarily as an entrepreneur...rings true, to me.) And I do agree that the "rich dad" is valuable as an abstraction.

Edited November 28, 2017 by wyattstorch
added detail; grammer

[barn]

18 minutes ago, wyattstorch said:

You're welcome, Barn. I wish I had read those two books in reverse, myself! My initial personal venture as an artist was premature, as I had a lot to learn about the entrepreneurial mindset before. (That distinction I learned from E-MYTH, i.e., if you're a baker, you're in the business of baking, not necessarily in the business of the bakery...his example of the skilled practioner complaining that they could run the business better, but trying to approach that from as a craftsperson, not necessarily as an entrepreneur...rings true, to me.) And I do agree that the "rich dad" is valuable as an abstraction.

Yeah, right? Smiles. (Dunning-Kruger effect)

Since you mentioned business and artist(ry?) , would you say that artists often forget that marketing and sales is over 80% when considering running a successful art-related venture?

Do you also consider yourself high in openness and relatively lower in disagreeableness?

Barnsley

[wyattstorch]

Heh. Well, in the case of a truly skilled technician, craftsperson, tradesperson, what have you, is it still a Dunning-Kruger effect, as much as it is a mistaken notion that excellence in one aspect would automatically transfer into another?...but maybe you're right, I guess it still is "Dunning-Kruger" if one is skilled in one area but not in another, and moves into that area, anyway. (At least, I can sympathize with a skilled worker taking offense at poor management.) But yeah, it's really insulting when it's a not-so-skilled or lazy worker asserting the same...


"Since you mentioned business and artist(ry?) , would you say that artists often forget that marketing and sales is over 80% when considering running a successful art-related venture? "

I'd agree, if I thought that that most artists ever knew that, let alone forgot it. I hate to over-generalize, but in this case...I'm a "black sheep" artist/musician, in that I'm not a socialist/Marxist looking to sustain myself on liberal arts grants, or even adverse to the idea of art and commerce being compatible. (That's the Objectivist in me.) Most artists and musicians I've met (not so much "commercial" artists, though there's still some of that) still subscribe to that dichotomy, so much so that I've had to go solo as a musician out of a lack of compatible musicians, philosophically. But that's Philadelphia, for ya...

(Speaking of marketing and sales: My own problems with the business side of things was not a lack of business knowledge, but the extroversion required to make the sales pitch for my own work. That's when I learned Gerber's point that exercising skills like baking puts one in the business of bakking, not necessarily running the bakery. I've since come to appreciate the role of an manager or agent to do the job of promotion...)

"Do you also consider yourself high in openness and relatively lower in disagreeableness?"

 Artistically? I'm open to new ideas and experimentation as a artist...but I can be highly disagreeable, when needed. It really depends on the context. (In that sense, I'd say I'm a romantic realist.) I'm not a Howard Roark-hard ass when it comes to group projects. But in those cases, in a disagreement, I tend to be the mediator towards the group/project's goal or idea, using THAT as the arbiter, the defining principle. (To the extent that the others involved are also committed to the same.)  And I try to avoid groups or work that violate my principles or values, but having met that criteria, I'm open to ideas.
 

Edited November 29, 2017 by wyattstorch
grammatical, clarification

[barn]

34 minutes ago, wyattstorch said:

Heh. Well, in the case of a truly skilled technician, craftsperson, tradesperson, what have you, is it still a Dunning-Kruger effect, as much as it is a mistaken notion that excellence in one aspect would automatically transfer into another?...

Eh... weeell... I might have been a bit too 'outspoken' and harsh (I do that occasionally, welcome friendly reminders). You're right, having a great amount of confidence in a field can create the illusion of achieving similar sparkling in another.

38 minutes ago, wyattstorch said:

.I'm a "black sheep" artist/musician, in that I'm not a socialist/Marxist looking to sustain myself on liberal arts grants, or even adverse to the idea of art and commerce being compatible. (That's the Objectivist in me.) Most artists and musicians I've met (not so much "commercial" artists, though there's still some of that) still subscribe to that dichotomy, so much so that I've had to go solo as a musician out of a lack of compatible musicians, philosophically. But that's Philadelphia, for ya...

That's cool man, admirable even. (Have no friends! Be the best - Sounded the response... I remember from a podcast where another musician called in with the issue of having no like minded musicians around... etc. Hey, you might even get some good ideas! I'll have a look, it's possible I'll be able to find it. If I'm right it was within the last 4-5 months... my retention, sorry about that.)

What do you like about Philadelphia that you wouldn't give up so that you stay rather?

44 minutes ago, wyattstorch said:

That's when I learned Gerber's point that exercising skills like baking puts one in the business of bakking, not necessarily running the bakery. I've since come to appreciate the role of an manager or agent to do the job of promotion...

Couldn't agree more and would love to act upon it but I also think it's important to go through the 'undesirable motions' a bit or as much as necessary to internalise it's value + know why definitely NO MORE OF THAT and happily pay someone instead.

The human brain is wired with a greater sensitivity/recalling towards the negative and painful.

Now you think I enjoy suffering. Nah. I just had a few disappointments where I thought I had learnt stuff and it wasn't going to happen ... when it did I sort of embraced suffering.

52 minutes ago, wyattstorch said:

"Do you also consider yourself high in openness and relatively lower in disagreeableness?"

' I tend to be the mediator towards the group's goal or idea, using THAT as the arbiter, the defining principle. '

I'm not trying make you 'pick a black, or a white hat' rather was curious how you seen yourself.

To the comparison, I'm pretty happy disagreeing with logical arguments supporting my views and care little about feelings if others don't seem to be using arguments but just personal assertions/preferences in a group-work. That's why I usually get to lead a small team or feel bored mindlessly following mindless objectives, until I get to have universal standards again. I'm bad at working in too liberal places. Always anxious if crossing the road without looking, not when it's green. Like for example meeting people 'just to hang out somewhere, doing something '... either an unexpected, great get together or out of place misery, not knowing what to do with myself. Neeeeed purrrpose. Haha. I'm not agreeable and relatively average on the openness trait with high extraversion. In many traits I'm strangely opposite.

I did the big 5 personality assessment of Jordan B Peterson, but I knew most of it pretty much before. I just never imagined I'd get such a good summary and pointers.

Barnsley

[barn]

It's for some giggles too but also true.

I forgot to add my hypothetical answer to your rhetorical question:

1 hour ago, wyattstorch said:

Heh. Well, in the case of a truly skilled technician, craftsperson, tradesperson, what have you,

 

" I'd say, we have a 'sure-fire' contact to keep when we want things done, well and for the 'first try'. Keep that business card! "

Barnsley

[wyattstorch]

1 hour ago, barn said:

Eh... weeell... I might have been a bit too 'outspoken' and harsh (I do that occasionally, welcome friendly reminders). You're right, having a great amount of confidence in a field can create the illusion of achieving similar sparkling in another.

That's cool man, admirable even. (Have no friends! Be the best - Sounded the response... I remember from a podcast where another musician called in with the issue of having no like minded musicians around... etc. Hey, you might even get some good ideas! I'll have a look, it's possible I'll be able to find it. If I'm right it was within the last 4-5 months... my retention, sorry about that.)

What do you like about Philadelphia that you wouldn't give up so that you stay rather?

Couldn't agree more and would love to act upon it but I also think it's important to go through the 'undesirable motions' a bit or as much as necessary to internalise it's value + know why definitely NO MORE OF THAT and happily pay someone instead.

The human brain is wired with a greater sensitivity/recalling towards the negative and painful.

Now you think I enjoy suffering. Nah. I just had a few disappointments where I thought I had learnt stuff and it wasn't going to happen ... when it did I sort of embraced suffering.

' I tend to be the mediator towards the group's goal or idea, using THAT as the arbiter, the defining principle. '

I'm not trying make you 'pick a black, or a white hat' rather was curious how you seen yourself.

To the comparison, I'm pretty happy disagreeing with logical arguments supporting my views and care little about feelings if others don't seem to be using arguments but just personal assertions/preferences in a group-work. That's why I usually get to lead a small team or feel bored mindlessly following mindless objectives, until I get to have universal standards again. I'm bad at working in too liberal places. Always anxious if crossing the road without looking, not when it's green. Like for example meeting people 'just to hang out somewhere, doing something '... either an unexpected, great get together or out of place misery, not knowing what to do with myself. Neeeeed purrrpose. Haha. I'm not agreeable and relatively average on the openness trait with high extraversion. In many traits I'm strangely opposite.

I did the big 5 personality assessment of Jordan B Peterson, but I knew most of it pretty much before. I just never imagined I'd get such a good summary and pointers.

Barnsley

I actually did hear that podcast with the musician, thanks...I certainly did relate to his situation. Rock music, especially, has always leaned more leftist. (It's probably why I gravitated more towards metal, for a while, though that came with its own set of, shall we say, challenges, ideologically.) But I've long-focused on composing instrumental music, anyway, which I can do solo.

Ah...Philadelphia...let's just say that I'm over it. (Do I have to hear any more about "Meek Mill", already?) Already moved to the outskirts of the county, away from the Center City area, and looking to probably leave the state. I've been considering New Hampshire, for the Free State Project, but I'm looking at other options, too, along similar lines.

I think I get you re: negative experiences. Sometimes you just gotta dive in, and learn from experience. And I certainly get you re: working in liberal places; it's why I'm "over" Philadelphia...

Edited November 29, 2017 by wyattstorch
added comment

[barn]

Did you do that instrumenal music on YT with an image (many others... retention, remeber?) reminiscent of the huge stone statues from LOTR, the river scene?

[wyattstorch]

Ah, no, that wasn't me; I don't use "Wyatt's Torch" as my music project's name.

[smarterthanone]

Kiyosaki is the man. Ok, there are two kinds of people, people who know how to bake cakes, and people who know how to build a massive company that bakes cakes. You have to be able to see the patterns. Hint hint this is an IQ powered kind of work. But if you don't have a super high IQ, Robert gives you the next step. Debt. You borrow money at 10% and invest it in something that makes 20%. You keep 10%. These numbers hold at any level. You could borrow $100 and get a $10 cut or you could borrow $100,000,000 and keep $10,000,000. Just get as much debt as possible to make as much money as possible. This is the easiest way to do this.

[barn]

On 11/28/2017 at 3:23 AM, Spladam said:

Check out Robert's Wikipedia page. Look under "Criticism and Controversy". 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kiyosaki

Hi,

Yes, I had considered adding that as a reference but (personally I think Wikipedia is more often than not biased, guilty of omissions) was rather after people's thought processes. Facts, claims (even well founded) are lesser to arguments, experiences people have lived in relation with the book.

I hope, the ones interested took to that page at some point automatically, regardless of the views presented here. (i.e.: the intellectually honest would want to check things for itself)

Thanks anyways,

Barnsley