morality Moral Argument Against Consuming Pornography

[Pod]

I had another thread on Self Knowledge similar to this but maybe the philosophy board can help me out with this one.  I was conversing with someone who is very anti-porn and after considering FDR's perspective, he gave an argument that I can't seem to rebut on why it is immoral to consume porn.  The argument goes like this:

Harming children (or anyone) is morally wrong (considering it's not self-defense).  Consider the fact that IT IS POSSIBLE that there is a child, young adult, or likewise out there that is emotionally needy or unstable.  This child COULD go onto the internet and seek out ways to combat his anxiety and emotional emptiness.  Porn is one of the most common methods of pain erasure. 

If you go onto a porn site and click a video, that video has a counter for views and most likely has ads that support the site financially.  By doing this, you potentially give money to the site allowing it to stay up that much longer, expand that much bigger, and increase that particular video's popularity to the point where it's more likely to show up on searches. 

Now considering all this, your actions COULD have led to this kid or person finding this video and becoming aroused/addicted to this new form of pain management which has a chance of consuming their lives due to their lack of innate self-knowledge. 

Therefor, porn consumption is wrong due to the possibility of it doing harm to others.  You will never know whether or not clicking on that porn video will have that butterfly effect, therefor not clicking in the first place is the only moral option. 

This argument seems to make logical sense but the total condemnation of porn based on what could potentially happen to someone somewhere that you'd have no idea about just seems a little self-attacky for me.  I can't put my finger on why though.  Thoughts?

[Tyler H]

A hammer could be used to brain someone....

Why does the responsibility for this child rest on some stranger on the internet and not the child’s parents?

A stronger argument against porn is that your exploiting the results of child abuse since the “actress” most likely entered the profession based on a wretched childhood. I still don’t think it would be classified as immoral though. You’re not initiating force against anyone. 

[Jot]

By natural extension, your argument becomes "consumption (of anything) is wrong due to the possibility of it doing harm to others"

 

[Pod]

@Tyler H

Right, and he would combat the non-initiation of force argument by positing:

Is it immoral to expose children to sexual material?  Yes.  Is viewing/supporting porn increasing the likelihood that children will come in contact with sexual material? Even by a small margin, yes.

So; if a child was sitting right next to you when you were about to open a porn link, is the argument that "I'm not initiating force and the parents should be monitoring him" enough to make opening that porn link in front of that child ok?  Why does morality change if the kid is halfway across the country and browsing the internet on his own?  Shouldn't you not be taking actions that increase the risk of others finding/having access to material that could consume their lives and maybe even destroy them?

One problem with this is that the same argument could be used against playing/buying videogames.  Videogames consume young people probably even more than porn, but nobody would argue that videogame purchasing/playing is immoral (maybe Sarah Palin).   But videogames don't go as deep into the brain as sexuality does. 

[smarterthanone]

Porn is not immoral if you believe the NAP is the moral framework. If you do not believe in the NAP, then you could find porn immoral or violating in some way sure. But I guarantee it would stretch to more than just porn.

Example using the same argument:

If you were to buy a car, that would provide money to the makers of such car.

If they had more money, they could expand to make more cars and be in existence as a car manufacturer that much longer.

Therefore, more people will buy cars and force their kids to ride in them to go to chuckie cheeses and then get into car accidents.

So buy buying a car you are responsible for other people and kids dying in car accidents.

Do you buy this? I sure don't.

[Pod]

@smarterthanone

@Tyler H

I guess this argument has me in a bind personally so I'll just come out and say it.  When I'm about to search for porn I think about my visiting that site, clicking on a link, and viewing a video.  Through my actions the site gets ad revenue, clicks, and views.  By racking those up, I am increasing the likelihood of someone vulnerable to addiction finding this stuff and having it ruin their lives.  Maybe that person is a 14 year old kid who knows nothing else besides finding ways to kill pain, and I'd hate for that kid to get hooked onto that stuff and have it warp his brain. 

I've stopped all viewing of porn at the moment because this whole argument makes porn watching unconscionable to me.  I refuse to click another porn link because right now it seems like if I do I'm potentially throwing someone into the throws of porn addiction which is something I don't want on my conscience. 

Also sorry about these late replies.  My content is being moderated so sometimes it can take a while before they're approved. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Pod
Reason for late replies.

[Tyler H]

Does he believe in global warming? You can tell him that exhaling is contributing to the rise in CO2 and that he should stop breathing. 

[Elizbaeth]

What about the argument that porn is like fast food? It hyper-stimulates the pleasurable senses in a way that seems unsustainable for any healthy sexual relationship. Whataburger may taste good at 2 am, but it's hardly a way to live if you want any sort of vitality and longevity. 

 

Plus, I think porn is more dangerous for men that women. It seems like it robs men viewing it of the desire to go out and "hunt" for the validation and companionship of sex, and pours their sex drives into something cheap. I think a man's sex drive is extremely powerful, and is a huge part of his outward power in the world. 

I guess porn is wrong or not depending on your goal. If we think it's good for humans to have sex with robots and live only in a virtual world, then I don't see a problem with it. If we think it's good for humans to strive for relationships with one another and to go out and conquer the outside world, then I think porn is detrimental. 

[Jot]

30 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

What about the argument that porn is like fast food? It hyper-stimulates the pleasurable senses in a way that seems unsustainable for any healthy sexual relationship. Whataburger may taste good at 2 am, but it's hardly a way to live if you want any sort of vitality and longevity. 

 

Plus, I think porn is more dangerous for men that women. It seems like it robs men viewing it of the desire to go out and "hunt" for the validation and companionship of sex, and pours their sex drives into something cheap. I think a man's sex drive is extremely powerful, and is a huge part of his outward power in the world. 

I guess porn is wrong or not depending on your goal. If we think it's good for humans to have sex with robots and live only in a virtual world, then I don't see a problem with it. If we think it's good for humans to strive for relationships with one another and to go out and conquer the outside world, then I think porn is detrimental. 

I think what you said was reasonable but the discussion is not about whether porn is detrimental to one's life or not...it is about whether it is immoral or not, fast food is bad for me but I am not being immoral by indulging in it.

[Elizbaeth]

2 hours ago, Jot said:

..it is about whether it is immoral or not, fast food is bad for me but I am not being immoral by indulging in it.

I guess I would consider indulgence in fast food immoral if signs of poor health began to manifest, like weight gain, bad mood, bad skin, slow mental processing, low energy, etc. I believe it is immoral to trash a perfectly good thing - destroy a good body with abuse of food, and destroy a good sexual relationship with abuse of porn. Does that make sense?

[smarterthanone]

On 12/4/2017 at 7:08 PM, Elizbaeth said:

I guess I would consider indulgence in fast food immoral if signs of poor health began to manifest, like weight gain, bad mood, bad skin, slow mental processing, low energy, etc. I believe it is immoral to trash a perfectly good thing - destroy a good body with abuse of food, and destroy a good sexual relationship with abuse of porn. Does that make sense?

That doesn't make porn or fast food immoral. It makes over indulgence immoral. Would you consider learning math immoral? No? But what if you do so much studying of math, you never have a friend or loved one and your family hates you for being so distant and you never shower and you get weird skin rashes growing on you and you turn into a skeleton from eating so little. Is that immoral then? You are basically saying overindulgence is immoral, not any one thing in particular.

[Elizbaeth]

On 11/22/2017 at 3:23 PM, Pod said:

This argument seems to make logical sense but the total condemnation of porn based on what could potentially happen to someone somewhere that you'd have no idea about just seems a little self-attacky for me.  I can't put my finger on why though.  Thoughts

I do think that porn is wrong because it exploits people who most likely found themselves in that career due to deep issues, however, I don’t think this is a strong enough line of reasoning. Try to apply the same principle to cars, or coffee, or clothes, or electronics, or food. It is impossible to know every potential harm that comes to everyone involved in a consumer product. Be knowsgaboe where you can, but no single person can should the burden of saving everyone from everything. 

 

I tend to think porn is wrong because of my personal experience in relationships. Of course I am a woman and see things from a woman’s perspective, but I don’t think tha discredits my view. As a woman, if you are in a relationship with a man, and you wish to have fulfilling, connected, emotionally and physically enjoyable sex, but he is a porn user, it inevitably creeps into the relationship. There are so many things that are hurtful about it.  He has trained himself to get turned on by his favorite porn, and there is little room for me, the real woman, to bring my personality and emotions to the experience because he can’t respond the way he does to his favorite porn. If also stings to realize that you are practically offering up your soul, but he can’t pay attention because, again, he can’t connect unless he is stimulated with his favorite porn cues and that leaves no room for growing older, growing familiar, or growing at all. There is little future. It also feels like a huge betrayal. Maybe not exactly like infeideltiy, but not too far off. The women are on the screen and therefore “not real,” but he’s staring at another’s woman’s naked body - something that would never be okay otherwise - and feeling sexual pleasure from her and the acts he sees her do. It stings sharply, and feels so much like infidelity that it’s quite hard to save a relationship from that. 

 

Another thing I’ve seen is that men who use porn tend to generally be weaker. If a man has such a huge sex Drive, and he’s capable, and smart, and charming, then he doesn’t need porn. He is perfectly capable of succeeding with real women and chooses to spend his sexual energy (which I think is the root of a man’s power) improving himself and the outside world. 

 

All that sounds pretty harsh, and I guess it is. I have never struggled with porn - while I have a sex drive, porn does nothing for me. It’s really as much of a turn-on as watching the laundry machine spin. But I have a lot of men in my life and I care about them deeply, and many of them have really struggled to know what is good and what is best for them. Men love sex and woman, and that’s ok. I think that’s good. But I think that porn is a threat to everything beneficial between men and women, and I believe it definitely does more harm for the user than people like to admit.

[Tyler H]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:59 AM, Pod said:

@smarterthanone

@Tyler H

I guess this argument has me in a bind personally so I'll just come out and say it.  When I'm about to search for porn I think about my visiting that site, clicking on a link, and viewing a video.  Through my actions the site gets ad revenue, clicks, and views.  By racking those up, I am increasing the likelihood of someone vulnerable to addiction finding this stuff and having it ruin their lives.  Maybe that person is a 14 year old kid who knows nothing else besides finding ways to kill pain, and I'd hate for that kid to get hooked onto that stuff and have it warp his brain. 

I've stopped all viewing of porn at the moment because this whole argument makes porn watching unconscionable to me.  I refuse to click another porn link because right now it seems like if I do I'm potentially throwing someone into the throws of porn addiction which is something I don't want on my conscience. 

Also sorry about these late replies.  My content is being moderated so sometimes it can take a while before they're approved. 

I think that where the level of porn consumption is in our society, whether you click on something or not is going to have zero impact on the reach these sites have. That being said, it’s probably healthier in general that you don’t watch it, but it seems like you have the urge to, or this wouldn’t be an issue. Like if you didn’t care then it’d be no problem to not watch it. If there was any question about a negative impact and you don’t have any desire to watch it, then there’s no problem right?

But if you do have a desire to watch porn, and surrender to that desire, and you feel the urge to self attack for it, then you have an opportunity for self knowledge. Explore the feelings that arise. Talk back to the part of you that wants to attack you for watching porn and have a discussion with yourself about it. 

[smarterthanone]

3 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I do think that porn is wrong because it exploits people who most likely found themselves in that career due to deep issues, however, I don’t think this is a strong enough line of reasoning. Try to apply the same principle to cars, or coffee, or clothes, or electronics, or food. It is impossible to know every potential harm that comes to everyone involved in a consumer product. Be knowsgaboe where you can, but no single person can should the burden of saving everyone from everything. 

1. What is wrong with exploitation? People are taking advantage of a value they have to satisfy a demand of the free market for often substantially larger gains than they could realize in other businesses. This is the same kind of Marxist terminology about exploiting the workers. So what? Shouldn't someones full and best value be realized if they choose to offer it to the marketplace and people choose to buy it?

2. You say due to deep issues. I know plenty of porn actresses and other people who work in the industry. Some have issues, some do not. Some seemingly normal people have more issues than some porn stars. There is no evidence that "deep issues" have any relation to people being part of the porn industry. I've never met one porn start who was into hard drugs, if they ever did get into hard drugs, they would not be able to work any longer because nobody is going to have unprotected sex with a junkie. I've met some from nice families and some from broken families. Some that were raped and slept with everyone and some that only had one boyfriend for 5 years. You are just making a random generalization that isn't backed up by any facts at all.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

6 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I do think that porn is wrong because it exploits people who most likely found themselves in that career due to deep issues, however, I don’t think this is a strong enough line of reasoning. Try to apply the same principle to cars, or coffee, or clothes, or electronics, or food. It is impossible to know every potential harm that comes to everyone involved in a consumer product. Be knowsgaboe where you can, but no single person can should the burden of saving everyone from everything. 

 

I tend to think porn is wrong because of my personal experience in relationships. Of course I am a woman and see things from a woman’s perspective, but I don’t think tha discredits my view. As a woman, if you are in a relationship with a man, and you wish to have fulfilling, connected, emotionally and physically enjoyable sex, but he is a porn user, it inevitably creeps into the relationship. There are so many things that are hurtful about it.  He has trained himself to get turned on by his favorite porn, and there is little room for me, the real woman, to bring my personality and emotions to the experience because he can’t respond the way he does to his favorite porn. If also stings to realize that you are practically offering up your soul, but he can’t pay attention because, again, he can’t connect unless he is stimulated with his favorite porn cues and that leaves no room for growing older, growing familiar, or growing at all. There is little future. It also feels like a huge betrayal. Maybe not exactly like infeideltiy, but not too far off. The women are on the screen and therefore “not real,” but he’s staring at another’s woman’s naked body - something that would never be okay otherwise - and feeling sexual pleasure from her and the acts he sees her do. It stings sharply, and feels so much like infidelity that it’s quite hard to save a relationship from that. 

 

Another thing I’ve seen is that men who use porn tend to generally be weaker. If a man has such a huge sex Drive, and he’s capable, and smart, and charming, then he doesn’t need porn. He is perfectly capable of succeeding with real women and chooses to spend his sexual energy (which I think is the root of a man’s power) improving himself and the outside world. 

 

All that sounds pretty harsh, and I guess it is. I have never struggled with porn - while I have a sex drive, porn does nothing for me. It’s really as much of a turn-on as watching the laundry machine spin. But I have a lot of men in my life and I care about them deeply, and many of them have really struggled to know what is good and what is best for them. Men love sex and woman, and that’s ok. I think that’s good. But I think that porn is a threat to everything beneficial between men and women, and I believe it definitely does more harm for the user than people like to admit.

 

From a man's perspective: we're either screwing or masturbating. Good women don't put out before marriage. Therefore man must masturbate until he is married. Otherwise you are begging for him to cheat on you because men cannot control their sexual arousal and are very dumb and malleable when horny. To control that, he masturbates. if he doesn't it's kind of like having a cocaine addict surrounded by cocaine and expecting him to not snort it. 

At least virtual cocaine doesn't lead to STDs, divorces, and alimony. I (as someone without experience) don't recommend it post-marriage but pre-marriage it is necessary otherwise you are asking men to live dumb and full of cum (or more precisely without the pun: asking a man to live with only his baser instincts in control. Do you think he'll make sound decisions without the ability to judge women by more than their bodies? I hate to accuse you of bad intentions, but I think you should ask who benefits the most when men aren't controlling their sexual urges and instead living in constant pursuit of sex...) 

[Pod]

@Elizbaeth

What is your opinion on animated pornography?  What about porn drawn by artists that takes advantage of no actors?  Would I then be taking advantage of the artist's proclivity to draw this stuff?  I'm on my third week of having not looked up any kind of porn and it's totally unbearable.  There's this erotic comic that I followed before I heard this argument and I feel this deep life-threatening urge to look at its progress again. This probably sounds all hella weird to you but I appreciate the thought you're putting into this.   In a way I want one of you to give me an argument that invalidates mine more than anything else right now so I can go back to what I've known for so long, but if not then I won't touch the stuff again because of what it would do to my conscience.  Even if I would go back, I'd regulate it and keep it under control like I used to, but until then I'm gonna suffer through. 

@Tyler H, @smarterthanone, @Jot, any input?

[barn]

Hi @smarterthanone

While I agree that 'exploitation' or 'capitalising on a business opportunity' isn't necessarily a bad thing.

and

'What's one man's meat, is another's poison.'

Couldn't be your example be applied to let's say the tobacco industry? (I still smoke, but slowly giving it up. - so I'm a bit hypocrite here, just for full disclosure.) I found what you wrote analogous...

6 hours ago, smarterthanone said:

1. What is wrong with exploitation? People are taking advantage of a value they have to satisfy a demand of the free market for often substantially larger gains than they could realize in other businesses. This is the same kind of Marxist terminology about exploiting the workers. So what? Shouldn't someones full and best value be realized if they choose to offer it to the marketplace and people choose to buy it?

I'm saying this because it doesn't take much to realise, engaging in porn or lewdity has the strong tendency to promote objectification, 'shortcuts' to endorphin/adrenaline production (therefore/and lying by omission), what would be otherwise a process of courting is stripped down to a 'standalone' commodity.

I'm basing my assumptions furthermore on the high prevalence of tattoos(self inflicted pain, marking, attention seeking... etc) , lack of virtues being involved(generally there's little to none 'hero arc' or 'character development' being rewarded for by a virtuous partner... etc) , illusory nature (reality doesn't match screen character, fluidity between the acting industry...where having honesty/integrity isn't beneficial)... so on.

Don't get me wrong, it's not the fault of the porn industry that people consume their products, or the tobacco industry's for that matter. I'm only saying that the 'end doesn't justify the means'.

If porn actors :

a., start having sex at a younger age

b., tried more variety of substances, consume more mind-numbing drugs like weed

c., willingly put themselves into the proximity of STDS by the two mentioned above

d., capitalise on a human desire that's easier to turn into addiction, given how our brains are wired(especially men's)..

Shouldn't we be reeeealy cautious exposing ourselves to whatever they do, given the high probability of missing or diminished 'moral compass'?

I hope I could put forward meaningful doubts and arguments.

Barnsley

[smarterthanone]

6 hours ago, barn said:

Couldn't be your example be applied to let's say the tobacco industry? (I still smoke, but slowly giving it up. - so I'm a bit hypocrite here, just for full disclosure.) I found what you wrote analogous...

Sure. Why would selling tobacco be immoral? I smoke a cigar on occasion. Cigars cause much less damage than cigarettes and smoking only 3 or 4 a year the damage is almost nothing. In reality I will have zero consequences. So why would that be immoral? If I buy 15 packs a day and rip the filters off and smoke them all, whose fault is that?

 

I'm saying this because it doesn't take much to realise, engaging in porn or lewdity has the strong tendency to promote objectification, 'shortcuts' to endorphin/adrenaline production (therefore/and lying by omission), what would be otherwise a process of courting is stripped down to a 'standalone' commodity.

- The incentive is so high because the market is not in equilibrium. Certain aspects of porn business are illegal. In some places it cannot be produced, in others sold. Places like Japan must blur the naughty bits but they still have a market for porn there. If it could be produced at the equilibrium level, then the money in porn would decrease substantially, so instead of performers getting paid $1500 for a scene, they would only get $200, and only people who were very interested in being porn stars would do it, because the high pay would disappear. This has been happening for the past 10 years with the spread of amateur porn. Big money companies are being beat out by a guy with a camera and a $10 domain, and the money is being removed from these giant porn cash cow companies and put in the hands of mom and pops (literally). See the decline of Playboy for example.

- Porn is not courting. No porn stars think "Hmm let me get into porn so I can find marriage."

 

I'm only saying that the 'end doesn't justify the means'.

I don't think you are arguing what you think you are arguing. You are here on FDR, so I am assuming you fall in the bag of libertarian, voluntarist, ancap, liberty loving conservative, NAP moralist. Ok. So people ought to be able to be free from interference with their rights of life liberty and property. No matter how bad the consequences, the ends, of stopping porn addictions, does not justify the means, violating people by interfering with their right to liberty.

In fact you are arguing for the greater good. Saying violating peoples liberty is bad however more good will come of it in the long term. This is THE argument for big government people and how they justify almost anything.

 

If porn actors :

a., start having sex at a younger age

b., tried more variety of substances, consume more mind-numbing drugs like weed

c., willingly put themselves into the proximity of STDS by the two mentioned above

d., capitalise on a human desire that's easier to turn into addiction, given how our brains are wired(especially men's)..

Prove it. It isn't true.

a. Compare porn stars to the general population. I doubt its different at all.

b. You do know like 75% of the population has smoked weed before. So the fact some pornstars may smoke weed I think is pretty irrelevant. Pornstars do not do hard drugs like heroin because they could not work, nobody would hire them.

c. Not true. Pornstars actually have lower rates of STDs.

d. If capitalizing on a human desire that leads to addiction, I am assuming you consider all people involved in adult industry just as equal to gambling, alcohol, cigarettes, TV shopping channels, credit card companies, things like ebay, facebook, McDonalds and a million other things that are KNOWN to be addictive to weak people.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

10 hours ago, Pod said:

@Elizbaeth

What is your opinion on animated pornography?  What about porn drawn by artists that takes advantage of no actors?  Would I then be taking advantage of the artist's proclivity to draw this stuff?  I'm on my third week of having not looked up any kind of porn and it's totally unbearable.  There's this erotic comic that I followed before I heard this argument and I feel this deep life-threatening urge to look at its progress again. This probably sounds all hella weird to you but I appreciate the thought you're putting into this.   In a way I want one of you to give me an argument that invalidates mine more than anything else right now so I can go back to what I've known for so long, but if not then I won't touch the stuff again because of what it would do to my conscience.  Even if I would go back, I'd regulate it and keep it under control like I used to, but until then I'm gonna suffer through. 

@Tyler H, @smarterthanone, @Jot, any input?

In your state I imagine you'd screw the first thing in heels! You're begging to be robbed blind and strapped down by a bad woman! Protect yourself immediately or walk around with a dagger in your hands perpetually pointed at your neck until someone marries you (or screws you like a cheap whore if you don't care about the future anymore--and chances are I'll bet you are caring less and less about growing yourself and your future) .

There is nothing immoral nor moral about any kind of fap material. In fact I'd argue it's the healthiest thing a man can consume because otherwise he's at risk of being taken advantage of by bad women. In fact I think you're suicidal unless you fap regularly because dangerous women depend on you being too aroused to know she's dangerous while she steals your money like a Clinton. 

[Spladam]

Just now, Pod said:

There's this erotic comic that I followed before I heard this argument and I feel this deep life-threatening urge to look at its progress again.

Sounds like an addiction. From a reasonable perspective, you know that not looking at it won't kill you. So then why do you feel like it will? 

Of course, humans need to reproduce and that's why we have the instinct to enjoy sex. 

However, porn hijacks the sexual pleasure system and diverts your sexual energy from reproduction towards hedonism.

Now, porn is not natural. Porn is also in incredible abundance. There is nothing that has ever existed like the porn we have now. Due to such an abundance of a super-stimulant, people are becoming addicted to the stuff. Like with any addiction, the addicts perception of normality becomes elevated and any time they experience their previous state of normality they become stressed. They begin to lose the capacity to cope with real world situations. Like what @Elizbaeth said earlier 'the men who watch porn seem to be weaker'. 

Of course, my argument here is not the moral argument for why we shouldn't consume porn, but rather a point to enlighten you on your (possible) addiction. I don't know if it is an addiction, but it does sound like one.

[Elizbaeth]

21 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

At least virtual cocaine doesn't lead to STDs, divorces, and alimony. I (as someone without experience) don't recommend it post-marriage but pre-marriage it is necessary otherwise you are asking men to live dumb and full of cum (or more precisely without the pun: asking a man to live with only his baser instincts in control. Do you think he'll make sound decisions without the ability to judge women by more than their bodies? I hate to accuse you of bad intentions, but I think you should ask who benefits the most when men aren't controlling their sexual urges and instead living in constant pursuit of sex...) 

I definitely have no desire to see men be slaves to constant pursuit of sex - I think men are pretty retarded about sex - but I think that a man who engages in the real world, knows how to behave with women, and is interesting and interested and is worthy of sex is a much better man than one who gives his sex drive away to porn. I’m not a guy. I can literally read a book or bake cookies if I feel sexually frustrated and everything’s fine. I would love to see men be masters of their sexual desires. I guess I just really don’t understand how strong it is for most men. 

 

23 hours ago, smarterthanone said:

. What is wrong with exploitation? People are taking advantage of a value they have to satisfy a demand of the free market for often substantially larger gains than they could realize in other businesses. This is the same kind of Marxist terminology about exploiting the workers. So what? Shouldn't someones full and best value be realized if they choose to offer it to the marketplace and people choose to buy it?

2. You say due to deep issues. I know plenty of porn actresses and other people who work in the industry. Some have issues, some do not. Some seemingly normal people have more issues than some porn stars. There is no evidence that "deep issues" have any relation to people being part of the porn industry. I've never met one porn start who was into hard drugs, if they ever did get into hard drugs, they would not be able to work any longer because nobody is going to have unprotected sex with a junkie. I've met some from nice families and some from broken families. Some that were raped and slept with everyone and some that only had one boyfriend for 5 years. You are just making a random generalization that isn't backed up by any facts at all.

 

1) I believe it’s wrong to knowingly exploit a weakness of another. I don’t, however, think that’s a strong enough argument for abstaining from porn. I think it harms the viewer enough that it would be in the veiwer’s best interest to not consume it. 

 

2) I don’t necessarily think porn stars are into drugs, but everything I know about women tells me that she’s probably either very detached from her own feelings or feels some deep contempt for herself to have sex so casually without love or commitment. I’m out saying the whole person is without redemption or lovable qualities, but it’s no secret that it creates a lot of hurt and damage for women to share their bodies with multiple people. 

 

And how how does one have a boyfriend while also making porn? Isn’t that like an open relationship? 

19 hours ago, Pod said:

What is your opinion on animated pornography?  What about porn drawn by artists that takes advantage of no actors?  Would I then be taking advantage of the artist's proclivity to draw this stuff?  I'm on my third week of having not looked up any kind of porn and it's totally unbearable.  There's this erotic comic that I followed before I heard this argument and I feel this deep life-threatening urge to look at its progress again. This probably sounds all hella weird to you but I appreciate the thought you're putting into this. 

I think pretty much the same about animated porn as I do about “regular” porn. I don’t think the origin of it matters as much as it’s effect if the user. 

I’m not sure how to relate to an urge that strong - maybe it’s an addiction for you? 

I hope you get some good food for thought out of this conversation. I’m very interested in ironing out for myself the rightness or wrongness of something I will surely one day face with my sons, so I’m getting a lot out of this conversation, too. 

 

On 12/12/2017 at 6:16 PM, Tyler H said:

But if you do have a desire to watch porn, and surrender to that desire, and you feel the urge to self attack for it, then you have an opportunity for self knowledge. Explore the feelings that arise. Talk back to the part of you that wants to attack you for watching porn and have a discussion with yourself about it. 

This seems like the kindest, most sound advice here. 

 

Good luck! I’ve learned a lot from this thread and hope you reach a conclusion you’re satisfied with. 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

3 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I definitely have no desire to see men be slaves to constant pursuit of sex - I think men are pretty retarded about sex - but I think that a man who engages in the real world, knows how to behave with women, and is interesting and interested and is worthy of sex is a much better man than one who gives his sex drive away to porn. I’m not a guy. I can literally read a book or bake cookies if I feel sexually frustrated and everything’s fine. I would love to see men be masters of their sexual desires. I guess I just really don’t understand how strong it is for most men. 

It's not necessarily the urge for sex that I'm talking about but the subconscious effects that any desire for sex has in interacting with women--the kind that invariably result in treating women like retarded children by acting like white knights. From what I know (and experienced) men generally aren't 100% there when they're around unfamiliar women or women they're sexually attracted to (even just a little). Of course fighting this is more than just arousal--but if it's big enough to pitch a tent, then it must be dealt with.

On the first point: what, realistically, do you suggest men do? Walk around with a pitched tent till marriage? Screw casually? The first will most likely result in a bad woman taking over (or at least the pecker pilot flying blindly in the cliffs) while the latter will result in many of the same negative side effects it does for women--while also becoming part of the problem.

I don't know, really, what it means to be a sex addict. I can't say I, for example, am noticeably less attracted to attractive women now than back before having access to the internet in High School. However I do notice I have far more self-control and my standards have risen a bit to the point where I'm not Daffy Duck to every thing in heels or a pencil skirt... Though a bit dazed, that's more a shyness problem than an arousal problem.

Of course I am mainly relying on what the Your Brain On Porn guy said about how fap material basically raises the required threashold for arousal. Sounds pretty good since I'd rather value a woman's character before I value a women's *insert dirty euphemism here*. 

Course again, I don't know what you're doing well enough to know where "you're at" versus "me" versus "average Joe". Given I was mutilated a birth I'd assume I'm lesser than the average Joe but I was more the horny guy than the practically MGTOW group I hung out with and I had noticeably more masculine physical features than most peers since middle school. Therefore I can't really say whether my own levels or urge are more or less than most men. I certainly don't recommend the pump and dump but I think that's healthier than living with a pitched tent all the time although at some point probably not really. 

So I'd appreciate you tell me what I should replace fapping with. Because the first thing that comes to mind is the beast with two backs. I don't want to put my wick in a blender. Therefore I don't want to pursue women before I am ready to marry one. Or before I'm really where I want to be as a young man. I know vaguely from another post you have problems so you know I'm taking your criticisms with a grain of salt, but the fact you know you have problems and are seeking help makes you better than most women by default so it's not like I don't value your potential insight. After all I'm probably half your age as well as without experience...

So practically speaking, what's a young single male to do? When married it's easy. Before that is the question.

[Pod]

@Elizbaeth

If you introduce them to sexuality during the appropriate time in puberty and help guide them through the changes, as well as raise them with kindness and interest, porn won't ever be a problem for them.  My parents didn't say a word to me about the changes I went through and never had a discussion about sex.  I had to discover all of that on my own, along with having no bond with my mother or father and being mentally isolated during that whole time.  As long as you keep on that path of actually getting to know who your kids are, being interested in them, they won't need porn to make them happy because they'll already be happy to have you in their life. 

[smarterthanone]

On 12/13/2017 at 9:14 PM, Elizbaeth said:

I definitely have no desire to see men be slaves to constant pursuit of sex - I think men are pretty retarded about sex - but I think that a man who engages in the real world, knows how to behave with women, and is interesting and interested and is worthy of sex is a much better man than one who gives his sex drive away to porn. I’m not a guy. I can literally read a book or bake cookies if I feel sexually frustrated and everything’s fine. I would love to see men be masters of their sexual desires. I guess I just really don’t understand how strong it is for most men. 

Most of my friends are retarded about sex. My one friend literally is like jumping for joy any time some tits show up on some HBO show we are watching together as a group. He is not very sexually experienced although he has a long time girlfriend. Me on the other hand, I have been with a ton of women and watch tons of porn, simply seeing boobs doesn't do anything for me. I mean I can think about sex when I look at them and it will do something for me but just to see boobs isn't very exciting. This is very important to dealing with women. Being able to talk to a woman and not ogle her breasts the whole time is a good way to actually get her to have sex with you.

 

1) I believe it’s wrong to knowingly exploit a weakness of another. I don’t, however, think that’s a strong enough argument for abstaining from porn. I think it harms the viewer enough that it would be in the veiwer’s best interest to not consume it. 

How does a porn person know if they are exploiting a weakness? Many people casually glance at porn once in awhile and it does not interfere with their romantic relationships in any way. Who has the responsibility of what people do with the material produced? And why do you go for the word "exploit" again? What is wrong with exploitation? The reason is irrelevant in terms of exploitation, someone has a demand for xyz and someone is satisfying it. The onus is on the person or people creating the demand to stop such demand. Do gun manufacturers exploit violent peoples weaknesses because they can't help but abuse firearms? Give me a break, they have no idea what people are going to do with what they sell. Same with porn producers.

 

2) I don’t necessarily think porn stars are into drugs, but everything I know about women tells me that she’s probably either very detached from her own feelings or feels some deep contempt for herself to have sex so casually without love or commitment. I’m out saying the whole person is without redemption or lovable qualities, but it’s no secret that it creates a lot of hurt and damage for women to share their bodies with multiple people.  

I think there is something to the "detached from her own feelings" you suggest but I think that is extremely common, its not like its some weird thing that happened. I'm talking like 80+% of the population. Don't ask how many women are in porn vs not. Think about how many women WOULD DO porn if the opportunity presented itself. This may be a shock, but the majority would.

 

And how how does one have a boyfriend while also making porn? Isn’t that like an open relationship?

No I meant she had one boyfriend and then she decided to get into porn. It's not like she slept around before getting into it.

[Elizbaeth]

On 12/14/2017 at 12:41 AM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

So I'd appreciate you tell me what I should replace fapping with. Because the first thing that comes to mind is the beast with two backs. I don't want to put my wick in a blender. Therefore I don't want to pursue women before I am ready to marry one. Or before I'm really where I want to be as a young man. I know vaguely from another post you have problems so you know I'm taking your criticisms with a grain of salt, but the fact you know you have problems and are seeking help makes you better than most women by default so it's not like I don't value your potential insight. After all I'm probably half your age as well as without experience...

So practically speaking, what's a young single male to do? When married it's easy. Before that is the question.

Dude, you got me. I really have no idea. Since I have no personal experience with struggling this way, my ivory-tower theorizing leads to the conclusion that guys should just deal with the sexual frustration and use it to be a more attractive man. But I'm also saying that without any real ability to empathize, and can't give a more practical solution. I know the dangers, and can see what's wrong. Sadly, I haven't found a good alternative. 

 

On 12/14/2017 at 9:45 PM, smarterthanone said:

I think there is something to the "detached from her own feelings" you suggest but I think that is extremely common, its not like its some weird thing that happened. I'm talking like 80+% of the population. Don't ask how many women are in porn vs not. Think about how many women WOULD DO porn if the opportunity presented itself. This may be a shock, but the majority would.

Yeah, I think you're right about that. 

 

On 12/14/2017 at 12:53 AM, Pod said:

If you introduce them to sexuality during the appropriate time in puberty and help guide them through the changes, as well as raise them with kindness and interest, porn won't ever be a problem for them.  My parents didn't say a word to me about the changes I went through and never had a discussion about sex.  I had to discover all of that on my own, along with having no bond with my mother or father and being mentally isolated during that whole time.  As long as you keep on that path of actually getting to know who your kids are, being interested in them, they won't need porn to make them happy because they'll already be happy to have you in their life. 

This is quite hopeful. Thanks. 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

22 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

Dude, you got me. I really have no idea. Since I have no personal experience with struggling this way, my ivory-tower theorizing leads to the conclusion that guys should just deal with the sexual frustration and use it to be a more attractive man. But I'm also saying that without any real ability to empathize, and can't give a more practical solution. I know the dangers, and can see what's wrong. Sadly, I haven't found a good alternative. 

And you may be right but I don't know. Like what's a "more attractive man"? Sexually it makes some sense a hornier guy is more attractive but I doubt that's what you mean. I think "dealing with sexual frustration" is fapping versus sleeping around. I don't know if women or you find "experienced" men more attractive than not but I also don't know if "attractive" means sexy or better (like to reverse the genders, a hot woman who really knows her way around a schlong or a woman who's really moral and reliable. She could be both but attractive is a vague word). 

I am an attractive guy. I could be really hot if I dedicated myself to it. However I don't want hotness to be my main appeal, I'd rather it be my values. If that turns off a lot of women that's a good thing. I want an exceptional woman who wants an exceptional man. Perhaps fapping really is harming me in some way beyond "sensitivity", but I think it's worth it because it's enjoyable without the obvious risks and costs of sex with random women. Also as a Roman Catholic I consider premarital sex to be very immoral and a dealbreaker. I'm not saying I wouldn't marry a slut (meaning woman who has had casual sex/premarital sex not necessarily a "whore") but she'd better have self-knowledge and the experience had better been a vaccine of sorts against repeating that action. As a man the harder to get (in bed) a woman is, the more attractive (both sexy wise and virtue-wise) because not only is she demonstrating intelligence and self-discipline but also proving that should I marry her she'll make it hard (if not impossible) for a younger man to cuck me (of course I wouldn't expect that from a quality woman. Worst case scenario I am divorced and for the right reasons. Course again if I find the right woman I'm not letting myself go and becoming a bad guy because then if I were the woman I'd definitely leave. Breach of marriage contract).

So, as far to-fap versus not-to-fap goes, I think the arguments have been stronger in favor of the former because otherwise I'm either a lusty beast without much inhibitions or I am committing the same sin I disown bad women for; sleeping around. And I know if I am a hypocrite I'll never attract an honest or good woman...

[barn]

Hi there,

First off, apologies for answering so late I hadn't noticed that you wrote, plus didn't check the thread regularly. Sorry, man. (I wish I had bookmarked my sources, will have to seek them out again... no worries.)

You put me into a tight spot (or I've put myself... whatever), appreciate it. Thanks for your directness too.

Now, that housekeeping is approximately been done, let's do this...

Would you say that a person having been a participant/involved in pornography is more than likely to be biased? (for full measure, I'm sure I have my own, other biases)

Neuw..

On 12/13/2017 at 6:12 PM, smarterthanone said:

Sure. Why would selling tobacco be immoral? I smoke a cigar on occasion. Cigars cause[...]

I didn't say tabacco sales were immoral, nor do I think porn related merchandise is. And I didn't say that. I haven't even implied, did I?! If I did, I made an error and upon you quoting what you think was that, I'm happy to put out a correction.

Square cut, my issue is with the message that porn is in our society. Sure, lewdity's been around since the genders separated but I aim to raise awareness (here also) of how porn is misconstrued same as smoking (not so much now, since the horrid images and all but the additives and no exclusion from health care doesn't help... and I don't mean that state interference is good in any way-shape-form either, but let's not go into that, here. Bear with me.)

Ultimately, it all boils down to the susceptibility of humans to adrenaline/endorphin... etc. inducing lizard brain rooted backdoors that in a society that has been dumbed down (thanks boomers) takes immense effort to counterbalance even to the point of starting to formulate a basic understanding. That's why I'm here, why I believe conversations like this can one day get the hedonism without boundaries be properly framed for 'hedonism without boundaries, now you know and can make an educated decision' type of a realisation in more people.

I have no qualms about people making 'bad decisions' or people thinking they aren't but they are in fact due to being obnoxious... sure, it's all fine with me. Unless they are my friends or loved ones. In which case I'm in their face(well intended, caring a loooot) , doing my best to get them to see things until I'm sure they do.

 

On 12/13/2017 at 6:12 PM, smarterthanone said:

- The incentive is so high because the market is not in equilibrium. Certain aspects of porn business are illegal. In some places

I understand the transformation of the industry, same is happening to the media industry... except for the addictive hormonal lure that is way more harder to rationally control than which outlets you turn on for your intellectual needs. You see, I don't think it is clear just how disproportionate the addictive nature of porn compared to other online/visual related triggering mechanisms. It's how the specie reproduces, certainly a few hundreds of millions of years count more than a couple decades(additives), hundred(commercialisation), thousands(origins) of smoking. I think it matters how susceptible is the human specie to certain impulses, they all differ and the deeper something is 'hardcoded' the more warning should be presented.

"- Porn is not courting. No porn stars think "Hmm let me get into porn so I can find marriage."

Hahaha, that's funny.

And true, yes.

I don't think that would be the case, no.

However, the chances of getting a proper look at just what the real world is, given the zeitgeist (politics, the bloated and far-reaching nature of statist organisation) doesn't really encourage a fair introduction to what future consequences are out there. Maybe you've been lucky and had 'woken up' parents, nurturing and caring support groups... but I didn't really got to see that happening throughout my short life, so far. (I have disregarded my own foo experience here, as it's been f'ked up, so no good reason including it due to bias. I am referring to friends, other people and their background I got to see.)

On 12/13/2017 at 6:12 PM, smarterthanone said:

I don't think you are arguing what you think you are arguing. You are here on FDR, so I am assuming you fall in the bag of libertarian, voluntarist, ancap,

Perhaps you are right, if you've meant that my arguing goes much further than just the topic at hand.
Nevertheless, I don't take kindly to seeing you including me within 'blanket terms', I don't think you had the opportunity to get to know me well enough for that. Still, you could be right.

In a sense, I get what you mean... Integrity of the values that you guess I uphold, therefore I shouldn't speak against those... right?!

My problem isn't with what people do, but 'from what set of keys they choose for different doors. I am here, to add more keys/dust off unused ones, even if people choose to pick up another one for a different door.'

On 12/13/2017 at 6:12 PM, smarterthanone said:

In fact you are arguing for the greater good. Saying violating peoples liberty is bad however more good will come of it in the long term. This is THE argument for big government people and how they justify almost anything.

You are right in one thing though.
I am arguing for the greater good. BUT I can only suggest, add to the conversation a piece, any questions regarding 'what is the greater good?' I can only answer by saying 'the more bad things we get to eliminate, the closer we get'. It would be trying to come up with the best way to survive during the next ice-age/extinction event/cringe inducing social gathering. How the hell, would anyone know ahead of time? Though some will get lucky, that's for sure. Others will be easier at adjusting, a few might even take a radical 180...statistics, but no certainty either way.
  
You asked me to provide 'proof', here 'tis:

(yes, read them all... I had to. I went back to the same ones. Or skip it, free choice.)

source 1

source 2

source 3

source 4

 

On 12/13/2017 at 6:12 PM, smarterthanone said:

Prove it. It isn't true.

I have nothing against porn stars or politicians for that matter. My qualms are with their actions/message or lack of, but ultimately it's not even that. A snake oil salesman won't sell much if people had the opportunity to not be coerced into thinking a certain way... or at least the scam artists will rather look for a more lucrative market.

On 12/13/2017 at 6:12 PM, smarterthanone said:

b. You do know like 75% of the population has smoked weed before. So the fact some pornstars may smoke weed I think is pretty irrelevant. Pornstars do not do hard drugs like heroin because they could not work, nobody would hire them.

Not really. Smoking weed is a mind altering substance. It might not impair judgement the same, but it does and same with people's tendency to drink&smoke, I think it is safe to say smoking weed doesn't allow for full moral agency.

Hard drugs? Yeah, maybe less heroin... BUT
They do lots of cocaine & drink alcohol. Probably the men do less(cocaine). Same as the movie industry, right?!

(((c. Not true. Pornstars actually have lower rates of STDs.)))

I grant you that, once they become 'professional' they might do more screening for things like that.

"d. If capitalizing on a human desire that leads to addiction, I am assuming you consider all people involved in adult industry just as equal to gambling, alcohol, cigarettes, TV shopping channels, credit card companies, things like ebay, facebook, McDonalds and a million other things that are KNOWN to be addictive to weak people."

C'mon man, what am I supposed to say to such a ridiculous claim? Please don't exaggerate. Of course I didn't say that. I wish to keep my respect for you and the convo... I'd prefer that.

Barnsley

 

[smarterthanone]

18 hours ago, barn said:

Would you say that a person having been a participant/involved in pornography is more than likely to be biased? (for full measure, I'm sure I have my own, other biases)

I mean if I owned a porn company sure, I might be biased. When a 23 year old who lives in in moms basement tells me how businesses work, and me having started multiple successful businesses, I ignore him completely. When a business owner tells me their opinion about how businesses work, I listen. Do you trust your friend who never went skydiving to tell you about sky diving, or do you trust the instructor who has done it for 5 years to tell you about skydiving?

18 hours ago, barn said:

My problem isn't with what people do, but 'from what set of keys they choose for different doors. I am here, to add more keys/dust off unused ones, even if people choose to pick up another one for a different door.'

The original topic is about if it is moral or immoral to consume pornography and specifically mentioned funding the business because it "makes" other people do immoral things like watching porn. In regards to anything, when wouldn't it be good to have every key available and every door available? Why so concerned with other peoples behaviors instead of our own behaviors?

18 hours ago, barn said:

You asked me to provide 'proof', here 'tis:

(yes, read them all... I had to. I went back to the same ones. Or skip it, free choice.)

source 1

source 2

source 3

source 4

Source 1 didn't appear to support your argument at all. Here is a nice quote "This lack of research is notable given the number of stereotypes about porn actresses, particularly that they have high rates of childhood sexual abuse and psychological problems. Though it's hard to know for sure without more extensive studies, early explorations have found these stereotypes fail to hold up."

Secondly "Porn actresses had tried more drugs than other women, though the only difference in recent drug use was a higher prevalence of marijuana smoking."

Source 2 was pure speculation as written by its own author "The ideas in this article are necessarily speculative."

Source 3 I just skipped it seemed boring.

Source 4 does have data and such but it is from an anti porn group so its certainly a biased source. The article offers rebuttals at the bottom, I think the key one being "If you compare adult performers to the population as a whole (that is, including a data set that includes preteens, monogamous couples and seniors), you can manufacture data that looks intimidating. However, if you compare adult performers to other sexually active adults in their age range, you actually see a lower incidence of STIs."

18 hours ago, barn said:

Not really. Smoking weed is a mind altering substance. It might not impair judgement the same, but it does and same with people's tendency to drink&smoke, I think it is safe to say smoking weed doesn't allow for full moral agency.

Hard drugs? Yeah, maybe less heroin... BUT
They do lots of cocaine & drink alcohol. Probably the men do less(cocaine). Same as the movie industry, right?!

I mean almost the entire population drinks at least occasionally, that alters your mind and doesn't allow for full moral agency just as much. Are you part of some Marijuana Panic group? Why is using a mind altering substance bad anyways?

18 hours ago, barn said:

"d. If capitalizing on a human desire that leads to addiction, I am assuming you consider all people involved in adult industry just as equal to gambling, alcohol, cigarettes, TV shopping channels, credit card companies, things like ebay, facebook, McDonalds and a million other things that are KNOWN to be addictive to weak people."

C'mon man, what am I supposed to say to such a ridiculous claim? Please don't exaggerate. Of course I didn't say that. I wish to keep my respect for you and the convo... I'd prefer that.

Barnsley

 

If you advise to not consume porn because it is addictive, why not these other things that are addictive as well? It is a serious question. How is a shopping addiction morally acceptable to you but a porn addiction is not? I would argue a shopping addiction causes way more damage to you both you and your family than excessive porn does.

[Elizbaeth]

@smarterthanone

@barn

@Siegfried von Walheim

@Pod

@Tyler H

@Jot

I apologize for beating a dead horse, because that’s what I’m going to do. I’m afraid sometimes I’m a little slow, but when I make a break through I get excited and want to share. 

This was a really interesting discussion and it made me think a lot. I think that I came at this conversation in the wrong way. I think porn is lower-level stuff and harmful, but I was missing the original question as to whether or not it is immoral. As long as everyone agrees, it’s not immoral. The “good” or “bad” of it rests squarely on the effect it has on the consumer. 

 

I know many many of you already reached that conclusion and I was late to the game, but I still wanted to join the party. 

Happy New Years! 

[Jot]

On 1/1/2018 at 4:58 PM, Elizbaeth said:

@smarterthanone

@barn

@Siegfried von Walheim

@Pod

@Tyler H

@Jot

I apologize for beating a dead horse, because that’s what I’m going to do. I’m afraid sometimes I’m a little slow, but when I make a break through I get excited and want to share. 

This was a really interesting discussion and it made me think a lot. I think that I came at this conversation in the wrong way. I think porn is lower-level stuff and harmful, but I was missing the original question as to whether or not it is immoral. As long as everyone agrees, it’s not immoral. The “good” or “bad” of it rests squarely on the effect it has on the consumer. 

 

I know many many of you already reached that conclusion and I was late to the game, but I still wanted to join the party. 

Happy New Years! 

Thank you for the feedback. I think it is great you had the patience and curiosity to not be satisfied with your initial conclusion and wrestled with the idea until you were satisfied with the line of reasoning being used.

[barn]

Hi @Elizbaeth

Nice gesture, really. I like when people take responsibility (though, don't beat yourself up too much... if you asked me.)

Barnsley

p. s. I was never arguing for it being moral/immoral anyway, or addressing the op(original poster) directly.

[alerdz5]

When you said:

Quote

Now considering all this, your actions COULD have led to this kid or person finding this video and becoming aroused/addicted to this new form of pain management which has a chance of consuming their lives due to their lack of innate self-knowledge. 

I see that it could be detrimental to a person's life, however, there are many possibilities for how a person can temporarily alleviate pain and avoid the root cause of it, for example, a person could eat food that is a poor diet choice in large doses, a person can go to a bar and make a habit of going there regularly, or a person can exercise so often that overtraining occurs and it takes a toll on the person's body rather than being a benefit. Each option has a potential of being harmful to others - buying chocolate from a store increases the chance that it will stay on the shelves, spending time at a bar allows the bar to remain in business longer, and paying a monthly subscription fee to a gym will increase the amount of money the gym makes, enabling it to remain open or possibly increase hours. People can turn whichever of these activities into an addiction following a previous person's support of it.

Despite the potential for any one of these activities to become an addiction for someone - the activity itself isn't immoral. If it's consensual and there isn't secretly a gun behind the camera as it's being filmed, then, in the context of a person liking a video that another person sees, and that person then going off and watching more and more videos to the point of an addiction, there is no immoral action in that chain of events.

[SnapSlav]

On 1/3/2018 at 1:25 PM, Jot said:

I think porn is lower-level stuff and harmful, but I was missing the original question as to whether or not it is immoral. As long as everyone agrees, it’s not immoral. The “good” or “bad” of it rests squarely on the effect it has on the consumer.

So a guy I used to work with back when I was doing retail heard a joke from our supervisor about how when he isn't getting what he wanted from his wife he smacks her and tells her to make him a sandwich. Then the guy stopped showing up to work. Turns out, he thought the joke was advice, and went home and beat his wife then asked for a meal, and instead she called the cops and he was arrested. True story.

The moral of the story, and why that has ANY relevance to the above quote? It's this: There are people who cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality, and they're the problem, not the fantasy itself. Too many people see spy thrillers or cop dramas and they erroneously believe these are accurate representations of real life. Some guys watch porn and assume if they parrot the exact same corny lines that they'll suddenly be involved in a steamy orgy. At the end of the day, yes, as long as everyone agrees, we're all good. Some clueless guys will get lucky and their mistake of interpreting fantasy as real advice WILL actually pay off. Chances are most won't have such good fortune.

Personally, porn use to me is no different than any hobby or habit. You can take it too far, you can let it rule your life and even ruin your life, or you can enjoy it casually every now and then and it will have a benign influence on you. There's a HUGE gap between "consumption" and "over-consumption", just as there's a wide gulf between "responsibility" and "recklessness".

[GoodJBoy]

These are just initial thoughts on this subject: 

If a man sets his goals in life so that he can self actualize according to his personal essence and he decides that getting married and having a wife and children is an important goal and he decides that staying happily married is also an important goal, avoiding pornography would be a good thing. 

Having positive, physical, and spiritually bonding relations with ones wife in marriage helps keep the marriage strong and healthy. 

Porn lowers a husband's desire for his wife and veers men away from having positive relations with his wife.  Typically, a husband involved in watching porn will have relations with his wife less often and when he does have relations with her, she will be more like a public urinal or a "war captive for the taking" to him rather than his soul mate. 

A typical wife who is not having positive, bonding relations is often left feeling bad about herself even when she orgasms.  Instead of feeling uplifted and spiritually joined with her husband, the wife of a porn addicted husband is often left feeling degraded.  She may feel more like a war captive devoured by an enemy soldier rather than wife who is loved by her husband.

Porn leads to less physical relations and less meaningful relations for a husband and wife.  Porn = loss of opportunity to strengthen a marriage.  And if you are not married yet but your goal is to get married eventually, porn is addictive and will setup a future husband for the above troubles.

By nature, men are extremely sexual and porn to men is similar in some ways like crack to a crack addict.  It is obvious that crack will totally destroy one's life but the dangers of porn are not so obvious but they can be just as destructive as crack. 

Spiritually speaking, for typical husbands and future husbands, watching porn causes husband and wife to swim in their own feces rather than have loving relations.

[RichardY]

Uhmm if you're Catholic isn't porn immoral? Every sperm is sacred? Some weird twisted moralities out there.

What are the draw backs of being immoral? Wages of sin are death, go blind?

Does porn in fact have any positive benefit? Compared to alternatives?

Japanese sex robots as a moral good for society? Perhaps like showing a fluffy toy to a dog or rabbit. Better exercise?

Win or lose, sink or swim
One thing is certain we'll never give in
Side by side, hand in hand
We all stand together

Play the game, fight the fight
But what's the point on a beautiful night?
Arm in arm, hand in hand
We all stand together

Keeping us warm in the night
La la la la
Walk in the night
You'll get it right

 

Perhaps Porn erodes the capacity to be moral and by that it is immoral/Evil.