Where should Europeans go next year? - Civil unrest?

[barn]

I had to read it several times and I still can't grasp it fully.

Sigh. So the time has come to start 'abandoning the sinking ship'? We don't deserve it anymore it seems.

Here's the article about the European Union's escalating push for a Dublin reform

Why did we allow our EMPs to vote with 390 yes, 175 no votes and 44 abstentions? I'm awestruck and starting to notice my thoughts regularly wondering towards seeking out a new place where people have integrity and actually 'walk the walk' the opposite direction.

How can we be so removed so that now 'there's actual plans being drawn up to sell our houses from above our heads'?

Well, I guess the security and public sector gonna boom for a short while at first from all that 'wellcoming and smooth-integration'.

I haven't seen many outlets bringing this issue up. 'Is it a duck?'

I hope someone corrects me.

Barnsley

Edited November 23, 2017 by barn
grammar

[Goldenages]

I do not think that this so called reform has a chance to pass. All former Eastern Europe countries are against it, here in Austria a new government is forming, consisting of a right and an even more right party. Further immigration will be zero, thats the official goal.

The more the EU elite pushes, the earlier EU will be history.

regards

Andi

 

[M.2]

I have served in the refugee service for a year, so I am quite familiar with the pages, as a matter of fact I have a copy on my desk right now, and I can tell you with certainty that nobody follows the Dublin Treaty. And most ironically, it is only Hungary who actually make an effort. The EU is a joke. I wouldn't worry one bit.
If however you are worried that your country might not shut their doors, that is a legitimate concern.

[barn]

Sure, Andi ( @Goldenages

That's what {your argument} I call wishful thinking. And I don't like saying that.

I know I'm making a very harsh criticism of your proposal, without any reason & evidence. Yet.

The reason I'm saying this is what has been the tendency amongst the 'big players', decision makers and the outcomes of their dealings. (Germany, Italy, France + multi national / certain international interests) Their people keep supporting them, acting as mindless zombies.

WARNING! Flowery language ahead, readers discretion...

How's civilised talk gonna fall on indoctrinated, weak and selfish individuals? I mean EVEN the BOOMERS didn't make a stand! After a WORLD WAR! I dunno, man! Perhaps I don't have all the necessary information.

Insertion(I would highly recommend watching an informative and 'geared towards an opinion' documentary called 'The Brussel' s business' to anyone who had the capacity to integrate and filter in the current 'zeitgeist')

The direction of my approach:

1. Bottom up organisation, the way a society is run makes it's effects felt - on the long term. Like a heavy, multi-carriage freight train (i.e.:any government), continued, after the first sign of demise there's much more to come, regardless of wanting to save what's left.

2. Too late to save/minimise the fallout, minor cosmetic changes won't do considerable alleviation to the debt crisis the EU is about to face. 

Maybe if a European country invented cold fusion. Chances? Aww... fairy tales.

3. The over-abundantly majority of European's favoured attitude, still to this day is 'ostrich politics'... even today? With all the available information, the possibility of being heard?... rrreally? They are not searching truth in their surroundings. I don't see why they'd in the near future, other than in a reactionary way when the' milk goes sour'.

No, I don't think it's scouting (preparation) I see it definitely more than just 'testing the water', see what's going on with the BRexit? Drawn out sabotage? (because it works on people who lately lost the ability to retain, focus, follow-up... it works in all the fields where 'controversial' thoughts are viewed as a net negative. And please notice, how I'm saying now, currently, as of yet... etc.) These people have no spines and they're actually great at 'playing the tunes to which people dance'.

Last hope V5-4? Small dent in the grand scheme of things...

I ask you to correct me, completely abolish my claims, explaining with reason and evidence why there's no continuity of the 'same shite different day' still and the 'tides are turning'.

Unrelenting force vs immovable object.

Darn!

Barnsley

Edited November 29, 2017 by barn
clarification on 'scouting'

[barn]

16 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

I have served in the refugee service for a year, so I am quite familiar with the pages, as a matter of fact I have a copy on my desk right now, and I can tell you with certainty that nobody follows the Dublin Treaty. And most ironically, it is only Hungary who actually make an effort. The EU is a joke. I wouldn't worry one bit.
If however you are worried that your country might not shut their doors, that is a legitimate concern.

Hi @Mishi2

1. Are there less or more illegal immigrants in the Eu compared to last year?

a. are routes to the inflow cut/or being re-assigned

2. How's integration going on as a whole?

3. Publicly announcing and making active steps to 'have no cap, plus be enforced as much as possible ' facilitates or throttles down an unknown factor's chances of blowing up in the face of the whole European Community?

Barnsley

Edited November 27, 2017 by barn
facilities vs. facilitates

[barn]

Occam's & Newton's shining lightasaber tells me the tendency of the European cultural suicide is on the 'speeding up' side rather than the 'whoaa, sh%t..! Take a step back and have a 'thunk' '

Is my assertion (apart from being non-professional and blunt) missing the target of what's currently representative of the community as a whole?

Barnsley

[barn]

Two long-ish posts awaiting the thumbs up. I guess I had said all I could.

Thanks for the both of 'ya.

@Goldenages

@Mishi2

[M.2]

14 hours ago, barn said:

1. Are there less or more illegal immigrants in the Eu compared to last year? a. are routes to the inflow cut/or being re-assigned

2. How's integration going on as a whole?

3. Publicly announcing and making active steps to 'have no cap, plus be enforced as much as possible ' facilitates or throttles down an unknown factor's chances of blowing up in the face of the whole European Community?

I have posted a very long post a year ago titled "The truth about the Migrant Crisis and Hungary", if you are interested, hard data is at the end of it with links.

1. I would guess less, because both the Balkan Route and the Mediterranean are being secured more and more. We can safely say that the Balkan route is being very well policed, due to the Balkan Wall of Hungary, Austria and Slovenia. I don't trust EU estimates, but the Hungarian police report 10-20 illegal crossings per week, which is extraordinarily low in contrast to previous years of 10 thousand per week. However, it is impossible to know for sure for the following reasons: 
- Many are not apprehended, especially on the mediterranean,
- Many escape the migrant camps
- Many register multiple times under different names
- Communication among the police of various countries is extremely poor.

2. I think it differs from country to country and from ethnicity to ethnicity. Also depends on what you mean by integration. The country with the worst vetting is Germany, and the one with the strictest is Slovakia. The worse the vetting, the worse the integration, as you can assume.

3. It may come as a surprise, but not many people pay attention to what the EU are saying. The ones who get the memo, usually tend to ignore it. You can look at the bahaviour of the V4. I don't think any EU legislation or action will have any consequences. What Merkel might do, that may have some blowback in Germany, especially Saxony and Bavaria.

[barn]

Hi @Mishi2

Thanks a bunch for your attitude towards responding and for the info itself.

26 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

I have posted a very long post a year ago titled "The truth about the Migrant Crisis and Hungary", if you are interested, hard data is at the end of it with links.

Curious, thanks for the reference. I'll check it out.

(direct link if anyone interested)

Have a good one,

Barnsley

[barn]

44 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

3. It may come as a surprise, but not many people pay attention to what the EU are saying. The ones who get the memo, usually tend to ignore it. You can look at the bahaviour of the V4. I don't think any EU legislation or action will have any consequences. What Merkel might do, that may have some bloweback in Germany, especially Saxony and Bavaria.

We might be seeing different dynamics, interpreting two different things.

My approach regarding why European mentality as a whole isn't moving in the right direction stems from how within the EU (following central planning directives) industries been re-located, replaced in turn with monetary incentives, reducing basically each countries independence to better 'integrate' and serve the 'new colonial mentality' of the leading EU countries such as Germany and the UK(anno), generally.

To give a few examples from Hungary, think back to the selling / moving of sugar-, mill-, automotive industry let's say 25 years back and now.

Of course education had to be corrupted too, that's why the Bologna system was put in place.

My point is that people didn't stand up back then, nor do the majority seek a better understanding even to grasp what economical and power allocation transitions have come to exist/currently are still in motion.

I wouldn't say I'm pessimistic (lacking a positive, constructive mindset) but perhaps I don't see the counterforces to those 'suicidal and ignorant' dynamics equalised at all.

[M.2]

On ‎2017‎. ‎11‎. ‎28‎. at 2:18 PM, barn said:

My approach regarding why European mentality as a whole isn't moving in the right direction stems from how within the EU (following central planning directives) industries been re-located, replaced in turn with monetary incentives, reducing basically each countries independence to better 'integrate' and serve the 'new colonial mentality' of the leading EU countries such as Germany and the UK(anno), generally.

I don't think we disagree. I have only been addressing the issue of the Dublin Agreement. Which is only a tiny aspect of the colossal monster that is the EU. But it's really hard to tell. There haven't been this many eurosceptic parties in power before. 

Quote

1. To give a few examples from Hungary, think back to the selling / moving of sugar-, mill-, automotive industry let's say 25 years back and now.
2. Of course education had to be corrupted too, that's why the Bologna system was put in place.
3. My point is that people didn't stand up back then, nor do the majority seek a better understanding even to grasp what economical and power allocation transitions have come to exist/currently are still in motion.
4. I wouldn't say I'm pessimistic (lacking a positive, constructive mindset) but perhaps I don't see the counterforces to those 'suicidal and ignorant' dynamics equalised at all.

1. It takes a while to be redpilled. Hungary voted left as recently as 2006. Poland's leftist government was changed only in 2015.
2. On the education system, I agree with you completely, and that is exactly my mission: either to change or destroy the education system in the entire world. This is something not many people even know is a problem.
3. My worry is that not many people actually have the time to think about such things. In many ways, the migrant crisis was a godsend for europe, because it was occuring in the face of the working middle class. They had no choice but to take notice. I think society is a very dynamic thing, and that trends can change.
4. I don't know where you live, maybe it's varying by region. I see a very strongforce that is only yet turning 18. My generation is the one that is sick of the millenials and sick of the boomers. I agree with Milo on this that ther is hope in this generation.
 

[Goldenages]

On 27.11.2017 at 11:13 PM, barn said:

I ask you to correct me, completely abolish my claims, explaining with reason and evidence why there's no continuity of the 'same shite different day' still and the 'tides are turning'.

Well, I wish I could

My view is pragmatic: I live only once. Certainly there have been much, much worser points in time an space to spend those decades given. This is not to justify or relativise whats going on, what I want to say is there is no need, and it is of no help, to become desperate or depressed, making your - truly - unique life a nightmare.

Having said that, I state my point of view in every opportunity possible, and there are a lot of discussions going on here. But we have an old saying - you can bring the horse to the water. But it must drink by itself. Or more blunt: If the Germans still elect Merkel and this unspeakable green party, they will provoke civil war, a breakdown of society, a meltdown of economics. Well - so be it like that, they will earn what they deserved. Thats an iron law nobody can avoid.

My responsibility is focused on my family. My children are well prepared and armed for whatever might come along. And my positive attitude is based on that.

So lets see what the next years will bring. There is no certainty about the future, only one - future is never an extrapolation of presence.

 

regards

Andi

[barn]

8 Hi @Mishi2

What you're going to read (if you take your valuable time, appreciate if you do) :

1. Why I state you've misunderstood one of my question. (sort of also answering a rhetorical question there, no offense)

2. Defining 'integration', adding comments. Rambling a bit, though to demonstrate a point.

3. People respond to incentives and small countries need allies

 

You helpfully responded :

On 11/28/2017 at 1:22 PM, Mishi2 said:

1. I would guess less, because both the Balkan Route and the Mediterranean are being secured more and more. We can safely say that the Balkan route is being very well policed, due to the Balkan Wall of Hungary, Austria and Slovenia. I don't trust EU estimates, but the Hungarian police report 10-20 illegal crossings per week, which is extraordinarily low in contrast to previous years of 10 thousand per week. However, it is impossible to know for sure for the following reasons: 
- Many are not apprehended, especially on the mediterranean,
- Many escape the migrant camps
- Many register multiple times under different names
- Communication among the police of various countries is extremely poor.

to my question :

On 11/27/2017 at 11:22 PM, barn said:

1. Are there less or more illegal immigrants in the Eu compared to last year?

a. are routes to the inflow cut/or being re-assigned

Is it reasonable to say(?) ,

1. there are more immigrants present this year, compared to the previous?  (only for clarifying, you strike me a brilliant fellow since day1 - plus I don't always word my meanings 'rock solid' )

i.e.: a hotel reducing availability of rooms to be booked, does NOT mean they are 'checking out' more people meanwhile.

(I wanted to confirm my assertion that the immigrants who'd already moved in, are still present + 'x' = overall increase, regardless of the slowing down of the inflow)

On 11/28/2017 at 1:22 PM, Mishi2 said:

2. I think it differs from country to country and from ethnicity to ethnicity. Also depends on what you mean by integration. The country with the worst vetting is Germany, and the one with the strictest is Slovakia. The worse the vetting, the worse the integration, as you can assume.

0. argument - Integration or the process of it, IS becoming indistinguishable and/ adding value (no negative value permited=that's still division) to the aboriginal set of values in a manner that's perceived beneficial to the host culture (I'm tempted to use the word 'heritage' but don't want to be nit-picking + don't have a crystal ball = rational boundaries, don't want to hypothese, just build on the established)

-> 2. Can you bring up an example of integration anywhere in the EU under the proposed standard, providing a clear sign of positive integration since the last 5years? (please be considerate, I understand that a small fraction has already successfully 'integrated', although it is statistically clear (to me sad) to realise that due to 'regression to the mean' within a couple generation THAT could be (at a heartbeat) easily discarded as of now, if we were realistic and noticed how intelligence/identity isn't 'photocopy-able'.)

On 11/28/2017 at 1:22 PM, Mishi2 said:

3. It may come as a surprise, but not many people pay attention to what the EU are saying. The ones who get the memo, usually tend to ignore it. You can look at the bahaviour of the V4. I don't think any EU legislation or action will have any consequences. What Merkel might do, that may have some blowback in Germany, especially Saxony and Bavaria.

-> 3. (Check out my intellectual reasoning here) My rebuttal, generally is: 'Well, yeah! Sure! People respond to incentives, not 'political-mumbo-jumbo'. '

But they do:

- To trade restrictions and their effects, felt within the distribution networks

- To the changed requirements when lobbying for subsidies.

- To the projections/ongoing voted(!!!) laws regarding planned restructuring of the ENERGY, RESOURCE AND MILITARY regulations, let's not forget the EDUCATION REFORM still happening (my personal favourite, 'let's treat S. T. E. M. as a whole equal to humanities'), basically the demolition of MERIT BASED evaluation and many more... etc. (the restructuring of the scientific peer review system...similar to JSTOR) I know... I know... Colonial mentality.

When it becomes over-abundantly more important to know how to write a good 'ask' from a legitimate scientific curiosity and simple exploration, truly obnoxious and 'bike-shed (i.e."law-of-triviality") ' mentality being present at the highest decision making strata... o-o, don't want to think of how that'll enable an already over-burdened cuota mentality to scurry for a greater fix by granting funds to the un-learned, detached (whom having been nurtured in a bubble... ). Of course alternative education system, welcoming controversie that I fully subscribe to. 'Let the best stay standing, using none other than the devices of what science can offer and instill through rigor and hard-ship in 'figuring stuff out'.'

-> 3. The V4-5 is a nice idea. Fully backing it. In the case of Austria or Hungary I'd assume the most meaningful contribution to make could be... seeking allies who WILL be interested to partner up. Simply because both are as of yet treated 'transit lands' or 'fly over' napkin sized mentions in a larger dynamic. And Hungary is keen to re-kindle the fire with China as of now, amongst ongoing deals with Russia. What's the Austrians gonna do, beats me.

Barnsley

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by barn
3rd anchor point, law of triviality

[ofd]

About 3% of the population in the United States supported the Revolution. However, they didn't start from 0, there were institutions and relations in place before the actual revolution started. Pretty much like today, they had social networks where they shared ideas and organized themselves. The least you can do is to get in contact with people in your region that have a similar view, make connections and build up an infrastructure.

[M.2]

1 hour ago, barn said:

1. Why I state you've misunderstood one of my question. (sort of also answering a rhetorical question there, no offense)
2. Defining 'integration', adding comments. Rambling a bit, though to demonstrate a point.
3. People respond to incentives and small countries need allies

Is it reasonable to say(?) ,
1. there are more immigrants present this year, compared to the previous?  (only for clarifying, you strike me a brilliant fellow since day1 - plus I don't always word my meanings 'rock solid' )
i.e.: a hotel reducing availability of rooms to be booked, does NOT mean they are 'checking out' more people meanwhile.
(I wanted to confirm my assertion that the immigrants who'd already moved in, are still present + 'x' = overall increase, regardless of the slowing down of the inflow)

Right. I think I may have misunderstood because in my mind, there never was a question that there are more of them present than previously. Sure, there is some self deportation, but completely neglegible.

1 hour ago, barn said:

0. argument - Integration or the process of it, IS becoming indistinguishable and/ adding value (no negative value permited=that's still division) to the aboriginal set of values in a manner that's perceived beneficial to the host culture (I'm tempted to use the word 'heritage' but don't want to be nit-picking + don't have a crystal ball = rational boundaries, don't want to hypothese, just build on the established)

-> 2. Can you bring up an example of integration anywhere in the EU under the proposed standard, providing a clear sign of positive integration since the last 5years? (please be considerate, I understand that a small fraction has already successfully 'integrated', although it is statistically clear (to me sad) to realise that due to 'regression to the mean' within a couple generation THAT could be (at a heartbeat) easily discarded as of now, if we were realistic and noticed how intelligence/identity isn't 'photocopy-able'.)

I may be completely ill-equiped to answer this question, as most are.
As a personal opinion, I think over half of ethnic white europeans should be expatriated to the very depths of the Mariana Trench. I think the only people allowed to live on dry land are those who accept Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. So if you reformulate your question to "have any of the newcomers become christian?", my answer is no. Because the countries that they are aiming for, jut happen to be some of the most godless. There is nothing to integrate into.

2 hours ago, barn said:

> 3. (Check out my intellectual reasoning here) My rebuttal, generally is: 'Well, yeah! Sure! People respond to incentives, not 'political-mumbo-jumbo'. '
But they do:
- To trade restrictions and their effects, felt within the distribution networks
- To the changed requirements when lobbying for subsidies.
- To the projections/ongoing voted(!!!) laws regarding planned restructuring of the ENERGY, RESOURCE AND MILITARY regulations, let's not forget the EDUCATION REFORM still happening (my personal favourite, 'let's treat S. T. E. M. as a whole equal to humanities'), basically the demolition of MERIT BASED evaluation and many more... etc. (the restructuring of the scientific peer review system...similar to JSTOR) I know... I know... Colonial mentality.

When it becomes over-abundantly more important to know how to write a good 'ask' from a legitimate scientific curiosity and simple exploration, truly obnoxious and 'bike-shed (i.e."law-of-triviality") ' mentality being present at the highest decision making strata... o-o, don't want to think of how that'll enable an already over-burdened cuota mentality to scurry for a greater fix by granting funds to the un-learned, detached (whom having been nurtured in a bubble... ). Of course alternative education system, welcoming controversie that I fully subscribe to. 'Let the best stay standing, using none other than the devices of what science can offer and instill through rigor and hard-ship in 'figuring stuff out'.'

Speaking of education... where did you get yours? I honestly can't tell if I am having a hard time understanding you either because I am stupid and you're smart, or because your writing is indeed a bit incomprehensible.

2 hours ago, barn said:

3. The V4-5 is a nice idea. Fully backing it. In the case of Austria or Hungary I'd assume the most meaningful contribution to make could be... seeking allies who WILL be interested to partner up. Simply because both are as of yet treated 'transit lands' or 'fly over' napkin sized mentions in a larger dynamic. And Hungary is keen to re-kindle the fire with China as of now, amongst ongoing deals with Russia. What's the Austrians gonna do, beats me.

Since it had become clear that Hungary was right about the migrants, the mainstream media has been dead silent about the V4. Thusly many underestimate the V4.
The V4 have a combined population of nearly 70 million, which would make them the second largest political union in the EU right behind the German Federal Republic. Their combined economy makes them fifth behind Italy. Their land holdings have made it impossible for any "refugee" to enter the Schengen Zone unvetted, especially since Austria and Slovenia have unofficially joined them. This is a big reason I'm a bit disappointed in FDR; so much material there, yet we have only seen one show regarding Poland.

[Crusader1986]

It's clear from this that the EU now wants to force Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia and Austria to take in the migrants, at any cost. This is clear. I can see those countries as a result choosing to jump ship and leave the EU. However seeing how corrupt and low the EU is, who is going to bet that the EU wouldn't resort to a military invasion of Eastern Europe in order to force them to take in the migrants? Call me crazy but I don't think it's that far off the mark. Nothing against Germans or the German nation but they have been responsible for the last 2 world wars. Who would bet against them starting the next one? They are a nation founded on militarism. And by the way, I won't just criticise Germany. UK, France and Sweden are almost if maybe just as bad with their desire for a multicultural, islamic hellhole of continent. Not surprised the woman pushing for this is a Swedish politician. The Swedes have literally gone insane and their leadership are the greatest traitors. What a disgrace.

[barn]

6 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

Speaking of education... where did you get yours? I honestly can't tell if I am having a hard time understanding you either because I am stupid and you're smart, or because your writing is indeed a bit incomprehensible.

I'd say, there could be a few reasons to that. A bit smarter than the average people around(usually) , but I don't see any good reason to justify you feeling stupid or ANYTHING CLOSE. As well as - English isn't my mother tongue(it's HU), lived a fair bit in GB, ES. I'm aware, my wording IS sometimes lacking proper structuring, leaning towards rather the manifestation of thought rhymes (don't know why, not a fan of poems). Anyhow, I encourage you to ask/quote stuff that you need clarification on (same as you did before) I hate reading that you had a "hard time understanding". Sorry, I'll try to be more precise in the future when I receive any questions.

 

6 hours ago, Mishi2 said:

Since it had become clear that Hungary was right about the migrants, the mainstream media has been dead silent about the V4. Thusly many underestimate the V4.
The V4 have a combined population of nearly 70 million, which would make them the second largest political union in the EU right behind the German Federal Republic. Their combined economy makes them fifth behind Italy. Their land holdings have made it impossible for any "refugee" to enter the Schengen Zone unvetted, especially since Austria and Slovenia have unofficially joined them. This is a big reason I'm a bit disappointed in FDR; so much material there, yet we have only seen one show regarding Poland.

That's a very good perspective, if it could be done that would certainly turn the tables. The only problem I see is the language/s(as it was the general source of headaches during the Austro-Hungarian empire too). Not the values, which to a large degree, are alike and very compatible.

Yes, me too. I am dumbfounded to have heard so little about the countries mentioned... although I can barely imagine how much research and checking goes into the production of each and every presentation. Still, at the moment Stefan's pull could easily bring someone well rooted in historical and socio-political background producing a fascinating debate(from Slovakia e.g.). The principles of philosophy are standards that can be applied just as the scientific method anywhere, it's the deep understanding of a set culture(added insights) that counts if you ask me.

[barn]

Another addition. About Hungary. I haven't heard many people mentioning that the current government and the people with power within (opposition too) are largely riding a wave, catering to their own needs while only seemingly responding to the wishes of the people. Corruption is still high, the media IS controlled now entirely by the ruling party, the national debt have been growing increasingly and they still don't care about the younger generation apart from some minor incentives that always fall flat... why do you think those who could(more skilled, intelligent) left/still do to live elsewhere and don't seem to want to return just yet or plan to leave for 10+ yrs. The immigration question is only a vice in the hands of a selfish group of individuals who got lucky and now have the opportunity to secure even more power. Unfortunately, the society isn't red-pilled to that. (Say, there wasn't anything related to immigration, Hungary would still want to get closer to the fire, 'wishing to receive more free meals from the 'common couldron of the EU' , further indebting the future generations, masquerading behind false narratives, gradually shutting down any and all criticism(founded, unfounded alike) ... wait, they are still doing it anyways.)

But I wonder :

Stefan's latest vid ('Why I was wrong about Nationalism') , I'm paraphrasing..

The right diagnosis with the wrong prescription.

or

The wrong diagnosis with the right prescription.

Barnsley

[barn]

Thanks,

Glad you and yours are aware and pepared, as always I'm happy to see people being conscious in their actions. (and upset with/sad for them when others are ignorant or willingly obnoxious)

 

20 hours ago, Goldenages said:

My view is pragmatic: I live only once. Certainly there have been much, much worser points in time an space to spend those decades given. This is not to justify or relativise whats going on, what I want to say is there is no need, and it is of no help, to become desperate or depressed, making your - truly - unique life a nightmare.

Yep. Can't argue with that. I can see why I might have been perceived negative and/ pessimistic. (I'm claiming I'm not but perhaps that could be still debated)

20 hours ago, Goldenages said:

you can bring the horse to the water. But...

That's what my source of misery is, living in the land of "the cradle of culture, science, innovation" seeing an escalating trend 'just giving in and going with the flow' especially amongst the now care-givers (whom seem to be tired fixing or going against all the crap that their parents had poured on them) being uninvolved in raising the current generation but rather expecting the state to do it.

(the reason why I know I'm not negative or pessimistic is because since I am alive and till the day I die I won't be able to choose compliance - I think it's due to my genes + harsh upbringing. Disclaimer: I also live in a highly socialistic and low work ethic, highly dishonest country with a slightly lower I.Q. population of 93-98, having to scour for scraps of intelligent conversations... and when I do it's a lot of open arms and shoulder shrugs with libertarian sprinkles of no-one side approach is good but I don't propose anything better... dooh! That's Andalusian Sevilla, Southern Spain for 'ya! )

I have tried, been trying, will try to raise awareness while also living to the t basic principles of N.A.P. and R.T.R. It's just that my patience (7years) is starting to run out due to veeeery low R.O.I. (return on investment) regarding 'socialising amongst the like minded' + red pilling here(I lived in a large family here).

All the best Andi,

Barnsley

[Goldenages]

6 hours ago, barn said:

It's just that my patience (7years) is starting to run out due to veeeery low R.O.I. (return on investment) regarding 'socialising amongst the like minded' + red pilling here(I lived in a large family here).

I know what you mean. Have some relatives in Germany, its fruitless and useless to discuss. All living from jobs sponsored by the state, by the way.

But the number of people who dare to look behind the false front of village Potjemkin is growing. And sometimes, during discussions, its a pleasure to see how just some words hit bulls eye and articulate the feelings of one´s dialog partner. 

One more word to the EU: Sebastian Kurz will be the next cancelor of Austria. He is 31, from the ÖVP (people`s party, used to be conservative) and won the elections with the programm of the even more right FPÖ (freedom party). Kurz said the same as Mr. Strache from the FPÖ, but he said it it clearly, calm, convincingly. He was the one to chose for those who were afraid to elect the FPÖ, cause then you can be called a Nazi.  Socialists shrunk, Green Party is not in the parliament any longer.

Now these two partys, Mr. Kurz and Mr. Strache, will most likely form a coalition. Mr. Kurz is well networked into the EU, and there is reason to assume that conservative forces will get strenghtend. I do not consider this a turnaround, but I would say, at least in Austria, the train heading to a wrong direction has slowed down.

So at least there are some good news.

regards

Andi

 

 

[barn]

@Goldenages

Thanks, I appreciate your words and your constructivity. People like you strengthen my core belief.

(make sure you don't bet on politicians, they're worse than greedy business people, at least they don't have the government as an older brother-bully to 'weigh in' on disputes. Always good to check if who you are going to vote for has actually made it independently, outside of politics, before having become a 'footsoldier' in a party.)

Kind regards,

Barnsley

[Goldenages]

Thank you, Barnsley, thats very good advice.  

[M.2]

14 hours ago, barn said:

1. That's a very good perspective, if it could be done that would certainly turn the tables. The only problem I see is the language/s(as it was the general source of headaches during the Austro-Hungarian empire too). Not the values, which to a large degree, are alike and very compatible.

2. Yes, me too. I am dumbfounded to have heard so little about the countries mentioned... although I can barely imagine how much research and checking goes into the production of each and every presentation. Still, at the moment Stefan's pull could easily bring someone well rooted in historical and socio-political background producing a fascinating debate(from Slovakia e.g.). The principles of philosophy are standards that can be applied just as the scientific method anywhere, it's the deep understanding of a set culture(added insights) that counts if you ask me.

1. I wouldn't worry about the language issue as long as the government doesn't interfere, Switzerland are getting along perfectly fine, with 4 national languages, and with 1 lingua franca. I suspect polish won't be the lingua franca of the v4, and we can safely assume it won't be hungarian. For now, it is english, but it may become german, since pretty much everyone in slovenia and czechia is comfortable with german. My guess is that it will remain to be english.

2. As I said, the anglophone and francophone media have been silent on eastern europe for nearly 2 years. It may be extremely hard to get information. But he still doesn't seem curious, if you ask me.

14 hours ago, barn said:

2. Another addition. About Hungary. I haven't heard many people mentioning that the current government and the people with power within (opposition too) are largely riding a wave, catering to their own needs while only seemingly responding to the wishes of the people.
1. Corruption is still high, the media IS controlled now entirely by the ruling party,
3. the national debt have been growing increasingly and they still don't care about the younger generation apart from some minor incentives that always fall flat...
4. why do you think those who could(more skilled, intelligent) left/still do to live elsewhere and don't seem to want to return just yet or plan to leave for 10+ yrs. The immigration question is only a vice in the hands of a selfish group of individuals who got lucky and now have the opportunity to secure even more power. Unfortunately, the society isn't red-pilled to that.
5. (Say, there wasn't anything related to immigration, Hungary would still want to get closer to the fire, 'wishing to receive more free meals from the 'common couldron of the EU' , further indebting the future generations, masquerading behind false narratives, gradually shutting down any and all criticism(founded, unfounded alike) ... wait, they are still doing it anyways.)

But I wonder : Stefan's latest vid ('Why I was wrong about Nationalism') , I'm paraphrasing... The right diagnosis with the wrong prescription or the wrong diagnosis with the right prescription.

1.  Ok... There are a lot of misconceptions you have mentioned, probably hearing them from the leftist media that actually holds most of the power even in Hungary. Firstly, only 2 television networks are controlled by the government. The rest are pretty much bought and sold for by other interests of varying politics. Needless to say, I don't watch TV.
2.  To your first point, the FIDESZ has been elected twice even before the migrant crisis, once with a majority, the second time with a supermajority. They may not have liked Orban, but they sure preferred him to everyone else.
3. The national debt is not increasing. It peaked in 2011 with 79.9%, in 2016 it was 73.4%. That is 1% decrease per year, better than most of the world.
4. I know many people who lest the country, and I wouldn't exactly say they are the most "skilled" or talented. This is just another leftist trope. In my view, the ones who love Hungary and are willing to work for results, they stay, while the leftist mob is leaving.
5. I'm going to have to see a lot of evidence for your claims written in bold, because I don't see it as the case.
6. I often hear lftist hungarians say that Orban just got lucky, or stole the memo from the Jobbik, or whatever. To be honest, it is getting annoying. The FIDESZ are criminals, sure, but they are still much better than everyone else in the EU. Unless you have an alternative, please spare your criticism of FIDESZ. I have an alternative, the return of the Habsburg Empire, but it is not too realistic for now.

21 hours ago, Crusader1986 said:

It's clear from this that the EU now wants to force Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia and Austria to take in the migrants, at any cost. This is clear. I can see those countries as a result choosing to jump ship and leave the EU. However seeing how corrupt and low the EU is, who is going to bet that the EU wouldn't resort to a military invasion of Eastern Europe in order to force them to take in the migrants? Call me crazy but I don't think it's that far off the mark. Nothing against Germans or the German nation but they have been responsible for the last 2 world wars. Who would bet against them starting the next one? They are a nation founded on militarism. And by the way, I won't just criticise Germany. UK, France and Sweden are almost if maybe just as bad with their desire for a multicultural, islamic hellhole of continent. Not surprised the woman pushing for this is a Swedish politician. The Swedes have literally gone insane and their leadership are the greatest traitors. What a disgrace.

I still can't figure out why the V4 is not opting for secession. But maybe they know more than I do. It may be geopolitically dangerous to leave, either being threatened by Germany or Russia. 
Pretty sure there won't be a war over migrants, but the EU is definitely escalating.

[Goldenages]

Situation for the Eastern European countries is not easy. First, they are still struggling for better economics, which, I would say, most do pretty well. Second, they do not want just to exchange Moscow for Brussels. If there is a sense for freedom in Europe, its not in Germany or France, its in Poland, Hungary, Slovakia or Czech Republik. I still remember when the iron curtain fell, and many of our Hungarian neighbors fled to Austria, cause situation was confuse in the beginning and it was not clear, wether some russian tanks would stop the party. Third, they still have the Russian Bear as neighbor, so they are oriented to the West.

So the "West", represented by a more or less Germany-led Brussels, has nothing better to do than do blackmail all those countries with this unspeakable refugees welcome attitude. Fortunately, til now, they resist.  Backed up by the latest elections in Czech Republic and Austria.

regards

Andi

[barn]

56 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

1. I wouldn't worry about the language issue as long as the government doesn't interfere,

I understand what you mean and respect your opinion.

57 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

2.  To your first point, the FIDESZ has been elected twice even before the migrant crisis, once with a majority, the second time with a supermajority. They may not have liked Orban, but they sure preferred him to everyone else.

True as 1*1 , though I haven't mentioned elections. The closest I went is that the people aren't red pilled... if my memory serves me correctly.

1 hour ago, Mishi2 said:

3. The national debt is not increasing. It peaked in 2011 with 79.9%, in 2016 it was 73.4%. That is 1% decrease per year, better than most of the world.

That sounds fantastic. I am having trouble believing it but not because of resisting a great news, perhaps I'm not well informed. Would you mind dropping me your source, pls? (I'm having difficulty finding non-GDP based metrics)

1 hour ago, Mishi2 said:

4. I know many people who lest the country, and I wouldn't exactly say they are the most "skilled" or talented. This is just another leftist trope. In my view, the ones who love Hungary and are willing to work for results, they stay, while the leftist mob is leaving.

Yes, it is possible we met different types of people, can't tell. I mean scarcity of skilled labour in the trades, hostelry sector... etc.

the latest source I have is this

1 hour ago, Mishi2 said:

6. I often hear lftist hungarians say that Orban just got lucky, or stole the memo from the Jobbik, or whatever. To be honest, it is getting annoying. The FIDESZ are criminals, sure, but they are still much better than everyone else in the EU. Unless you have an alternative, please spare your criticism of FIDESZ. I have an alternative, the return of the Habsburg Empire, but it is not too realistic for now.

Dear Mishi2, I don't appreciate covert references or characterisations of my not yet expressed political standpoint. Even if you were right. (you don't know because you haven't asked me and I didn't mention it)

I would appreciate it if you asked more rather than assumed things arbitrarily. Also if you wish to ramble, please remember to do it with consideration to not everyone sharing the same pool of information/mentality as you do. I think that's fair to ask, wouldn't you agree?

And thanks for sharing your strong and established assertions, I'll be checking out the info you provided and hopefully arriving to similar conclusions.

Barnsley

[M.2]

52 minutes ago, barn said:

I understand what you mean and respect your opinion.

I mean, if you visit Transylvania, where supposedly the Hungarian minority and the Romanian majority are constantly at each other's throats, it is not uncommon to see a romanian couple greeting another couple in hungarian. People generally tend to sort things out by themselves as long as the government stays out.

Quote

True as 1*1 , though I haven't mentioned elections. The closest I went is that the people aren't red pilled... if my memory serves me correctly.

I'm not sure to what extent you would expect a people to be redpilled. If your standard is Poland, then no, Hungary is not redpilled. If I had to give you solid numbers, I would say that around 30% of hungarians are pretty solid, working class, christian, family oriented citizens; pretty redpilled if you ask me. There are 2 large demographics among whom it is very hard to find allies, namely the boomers and the millenials. I don't know what your expereince is.

Quote

That sounds fantastic. I am having trouble believing it but not because of resisting a great news, perhaps I'm not well informed. Would you mind dropping me your source, pls? (I'm having difficulty finding non-GDP based metrics)

What do you mean non-gdp based metrics? We always measure debt in relation to gdp. Do you mean gross debt? You will find everything here: https://tradingeconomics.com/hungary/government-debt-to-gdp

Quote

Yes, it is possible we met different types of people, can't tell. I mean scarcity of skilled labour in the trades, hostelry sector... etc. the latest source I have is this

Why is scarcity of labour a problem, supposing there is? If they need my labour so much, shouldn't they just offer me more? It's economics 101. And come on.... Index... really?

Quote

Dear Mishi2, I don't appreciate covert references or characterisations of my not yet expressed political standpoint. Even if you were right. (you don't know because you haven't asked me and I didn't mention it) I would appreciate it if you asked more rather than assumed things arbitrarily. Also if you wish to ramble, please remember to do it with consideration to not everyone sharing the same pool of information/mentality as you do. I think that's fair to ask, wouldn't you agree?

And thanks for sharing your strong and established assertions, I'll be checking out the info you provided and hopefully arriving to similar conclusions.

I never assumed anything of you, rather I was merely talking about my experiences. No need to take offence. I may have used the general "you" a bit vaguely; I was not referring to you specifically.

[barn]

32 minutes ago, Mishi2 said:

I mean, if you visit Transylvania, where supposedly the Hungarian minority and the Romanian majority are constantly at each other's throats, it is not uncommon to see a romanian couple greeting another couple in hungarian. People generally tend to sort things out by themselves as long as the government stays out.

I'm not sure to what extent you would expect a people to be redpilled. If your standard is Poland, then no, Hungary is not redpilled. If I had to give you solid numbers, I would say that around 30% of hungarians are pretty solid, working class, christian, family oriented citizens; pretty redpilled if you ask me. There are 2 large demographics among whom it is very hard to find allies, namely the boomers and the millenials. I don't know what your expereince is.

What do you mean non-gdp based metrics? We always measure debt in relation to gdp. Do you mean gross debt? You will find everything here: https://tradingeconomics.com/hungary/government-debt-to-gdp

Why is scarcity of labour a problem, supposing there is? If they need my labour so much, shouldn't they just offer me more? It's economics 101. And come on.... Index... really?

I never assumed anything of you, rather I was merely talking about my experiences. No need to take offence. I may have used the general "you" a bit vaguely; I was not referring to you specifically.

Thanks for the updates, don't worry about the rest. No problem.

Barnsley