[YouTube] The Truth About Charles Manson

[Freedomain]

The Truth About Charles Manson

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[Tenement Geek]

Quote

 

Unsure if this is the proper place to say this, but what the fuck:

 

Much thanks Stefan for your detailed analysis of the early life of Charles Manson.  I have always been fascinated with the Tate/LaBianca  cases and find the background to be quite helpful.

 

If you are ever inclined, I would love to hear your thoughts on the criminal cases that he was involved in that ultimately led to his permanent incarceration.  

 

 

[Boss]

"enough trauma can, I believe, strip people of free will"

Only if the trauma made them brain dead, which would make them incapable of anything. Anyone who can, also can not. The majority of people live their lives not doing. They all know what not doing is like. When people do anything it is a free choice as they could have continued doing nothing. 

Anyone know when Stefan developed or found this idea? At face value, I disagree with it pretty strongly but want to learn more about it.

[barn]

14 hours ago, Boss said:

"enough trauma can, I believe, strip people of free will"

Only if the trauma made them brain dead, which would make them incapable of anything. Anyone who can, also can not. The majority of people live their lives not doing. They all know what not doing is like. When people do anything it is a free choice as they could have continued doing nothing. 

Anyone know when Stefan developed or found this idea? At face value, I disagree with it pretty strongly but want to learn more about it.

Hi,

I'm guessing you haven't been listening / watching many of his podcasts, videos on peaceful parenting, or found the 'photocopier effect' to be relatable.

It comes up quite frequently when single mothers(step dads), physical - sexual abuse(What a burden), child beating in the black community (and others too), women passing 'their expiry date' are mentioned/call-in and the application of 'fog horn' is also very common.

Also, I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other. I perfectly see the connection, logic.

Hint(how I'd distill what I came to grasp): Enough unprocessed suffering has the tendency to make a person immune to healing / mourning / curiosity, allocation of guilt where it is due. Therefore making the 'it was all done to me, the world's deterministic bs' mentality act as a 'getaway car' from reality, further strengthening various cognitive dissonances at each passing milestone.

Barnsley

[Boss]

4 hours ago, barn said:

Hi,

I'm guessing you haven't been listening / watching many of his podcasts, videos on peaceful parenting, or found the 'photocopier effect' to be relatable.

It comes up quite frequently when single mothers(step dads), physical - sexual abuse(What a burden), child beating in the black community (and others too), women passing 'their expiry date' are mentioned/call-in and the application of 'fog horn' is also very common.

Also, I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other. I perfectly see the connection, logic.

Hint(how I'd distill what I came to grasp): Enough unprocessed suffering has the tendency to make a person immune to healing / mourning / curiosity, allocation of guilt where it is due. Therefore making the 'it was all done to me, the world's deterministic bs' mentality act as a 'getaway car' from reality, further strengthening various cognitive dissonances at each passing milestone.

Barnsley

5

Hello Barnsley,

Peaceful parenting is 100% true. I'm not too well versed in the "photocopier effect". My first objection to that phrase is since everyone has histories of everything that happened to them also not happening, why is the event of it not happening not taken into account?

For evil to exist, good must also exist. For every action taken, before that action, there was no action. 

"Enough unprocessed suffering has the tendency to make a person immune to healing / mourning / curiosity"

How do you quantify what is enough?

I think this is a slippery slope. 

[wyattstorch]

 

Re: Childhood abuse and diminishing of "free will" : Seems like a good book to introduce to this topic. Not so much that criminals don't have free will, but that their thought patterns lead them away from WANTING to change. (Much of this applies to non-criminals like malignant narcissists, abusive parents, etc, as well...)

INSIDE THE CRIMINAL MIND by Stanton Samenow
https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Criminal-Mind-Revised-Updated/dp/140004619X#reader_140004619X

 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by wyattstorch
added book title

[barn]

Hi @Boss

47 minutes ago, Boss said:

Peaceful parenting is 100% true. I'm not too well versed in the "photocopier effect".

If I had to give an approximation :

'Generational reproduction of the same flaw, during which the new generation isn't aware of/chooses not to change the outcome of a flawed mentality they were raised with. Passing on the same mistreatment as it had been received.'

i.e.: single dad's /mom's (the dishonest, weak, bad ones) lack of 'coming clean' regarding their bad life-decisions, sabotaging the child to keep him/her in the dark. Supplemented with propaganda to keep the child weak and dependent, likely anchoring and stunting their emotional development... at best.

49 minutes ago, Boss said:

since everyone has histories of everything that happened to them also not happening, why is the event of it not happening not taken into account?

I hope you can clarify. At yet, I only see relativism. I would like to think that I'm wrong.

1. What is "histories of everything that happened"?

2. The easiest way for me to understand you would be if you made an example with specifics. If you want, that is.

1 hour ago, Boss said:

"Enough unprocessed suffering has the tendency to make a person immune to healing / mourning / curiosity"

How do you quantify what is enough?

Oh, that's easy. Imagine you feel the urge to fart in public but you keep it in to avoid embarrassing yourself(Dammit beans..) . When there's enough pressure in your intestines, you wouldn't but can't... and 'let the flying biscuit roam', regardless you considering it being untimely quite a bit. It happens to the best of us. Elevators are the worst I guess.

That isn't the best but certainly an accurate way to describe the concept of 'enough'.

1 hour ago, Boss said:

I think this is a slippery slope. 

Perhaps to you.

It don't have to be.

Only if you choose to. Only if that's what you prefer. You could prefer understanding and clarity, I'm happy to proceed constructively.

Barnsley

[Boss]

 

19 minutes ago, barn said:

I hope you can clarify. At yet, I only see relativism. I would like to think that I'm wrong.

1. What is "histories of everything that happened"?

2. The easiest way for me to understand you would be if you made an example with specifics. If you want, that is.

1

Well, It's hard to give an example as I feel this is a complex issue and maybe the example I or you talk about won't be 100% related to all other cases. I can try to tho.
Like when the abuse occurred, abuse also did not occur prior to the event. Like if someone got spanked with a belt, it's not a 24/7 event. So they have the history of not getting spanked with the belt too. So the individual has the history of both abuse and not abuse. Thus when they get older they have the history and free will to choose what they want to do.
 

21 minutes ago, barn said:

Oh, that's easy. Imagine you feel the urge to fart in public but you keep it in to avoid embarrassing yourself(Dammit beans..) . When there's enough pressure in your intestines, you wouldn't but can't... and 'let the flying biscuit roam', regardless you considering it being untimely quite a bit. It happens to the best of us. Elevators are the worst I guess.

That isn't the best but certainly an accurate way to describe the concept of 'enough'.

2

Well, I don't think ideas are a biological inevitably like farting. I think Ideas are something someone chooses through free will. Like I gathered your ideas because I choose to check the FDR board. I also had the idea of not checking the board so I could have done that too.

Farting, on the other hand, didn't have much of a choice. I guess you can choose to not eat beans lol 

 

[barn]

1 minute ago, Boss said:

Like if someone got spanked with a belt, it's not a 24/7 event. So they have the history of not getting spanked with the belt too. So the individual has the history of both abuse and not abuse. Thus when they get older they have the history and free will to choose what they want to do.

Am I following you.

A person can choose to not have the outcomes of having been beaten by choosing to focus on the past prior to that?

3 minutes ago, Boss said:

Well, I don't think ideas are a biological inevitably like farting.

Me neither.

I answered your question :

2 hours ago, Boss said:

How do you quantify what is enough?

with a 'lighthearted' but accurate example of 'enough'

Barnsley

[Boss]

1 minute ago, barn said:

Am I following you.

A person can choose to not have the outcomes of having been beaten by choosing to focus on the past prior to that?

2

No, you are not following, Of course, a person can't choose to have been beaten. This is not MMA or boxing.

I am saying every person who was beaten(unless they were physically beaten 24/7) were also at times not beaten right?

So they have the history of both being beaten and not being beaten. Does that make sense?

 

[barn]

6 minutes ago, Boss said:

No, you are not following, Of course, a person can't choose to have been beaten. This is not MMA or boxing.

Ill try again, quoting the same question with a highlight of the part (that perhaps by mistake you skipped, and) I kindly ask you to DO read this time.

15 minutes ago, barn said:

Am I following you.

A person can choose to not have the outcomes of having been beaten by choosing to focus on the past prior to that?

 

 

[Boss]

6 minutes ago, barn said:

Ill try again, quoting the same question with a highlight of the part (that perhaps by mistake you skipped, and) I kindly ask you to DO read this time.

 

 

No person can choose the outcomes of having been beaten.

Every person chooses to beat or not beat someone.

Maybe you can say what you're saying in another way so I can understand? sorry. Like what outcome are you referring too? determinism? physical injury?

[barn]

Interesting.

That's okeii, I see I'm not the 'right' person to discuss the topic with you.

Although I appreciate that I could think some things over again and get an even clearer idea. Appreciate the opportunity.

Have a good one,

Barnsley

[Boss]

I think the issue was our ideas of the outcome of a beating

I try to stick to outcomes that are 100% the case. So like the obvious outcome of a beating is physical pain/injury and obviously, you can't choose to not have physical pain/injury after a beating. I do believe that the person can choose to beat or not beat someone tho, through free will

I wasn't sure of your idea of the outcome of a beaten. Judging by stef statement he believes determinism can be the outcome. I still disagree with that statement. 

 

[devnull]

Most important thing that I have learned with this video it is not about the early life of Charles particularly, but how important it is to nurture and provide a good life to our children when they are raised.

Keeping them in a safe and harmonious environment has very serious implications on how balanced that person will be when they grow up.

I cannot even imagine my children spending their early life in an institution feeling abandoned by their parents without the answer to why are they being left there, much more taking beatings and getting raped by the fellow 'guardians' and 'colleagues'. I would, for sure, be wanting to take my part of revenge if I had to pass through such hardships when I was young.