Slowly gaining self-knowledge and struggling with marriage formed prior

[Elizbaeth]

I have been with my husband for nearly 3 years. I'm beginning to think that we truly were a perfect match for one another. Our positives work very well together, and our dysfunctions do too, sadly. My ACE score is a 6, and I'm guessing his would be a 7. I am often in awe of his childhood. Our entire relationship was founded on very shakey grounds. I think I sought him out because he was emotionally distant and his anger and desire to control was something that I felt familiar with, and I could easily fall into "managing" my own emotions of sadness, anger, and disappointment. Of course there are lots of good things, too, but no one needs help figuring out how to fix the good. Now we have two very young sons. Most days, I feel that we are "alright," but I find that if he begins acting affectionate, sweet, or curious about me, I freak out and instantly do something that I know will make him angry and ruin the good mood. I think I'm just scared of getting my hopes up too high and then crashing even harder, so I'm pre-emptively wrecking things (our first two years together were fairly hellish, and we've really taken a turn for the better the past year). I desperately want to stop this because we have made SUCH good progress together, but feel like I need a mechanism, routine, or some sort of preparation for behaving in a way that is both honest and encouraging. I find that I typically am only able to stop doing bad behavior if I separate myself from my feelings, and while this seems to make everyone happy for a while, I'm worried that I haven't actually resolved anything and it's just a matter of time until I find another way to make sure that he is angry and overbearing and I am apologetic and the victim. We both still have enough negative emotions that I really want to be careful not to do anything to discourage us growing together in a healthy way. I have learned a lot from the FDR show, and it has really been quite eye-opening (and painful, tbh). I feel my heart doing this daily dance of growing and shrinking, and I am looking for a lifeline to save my sons and myself and my husband from silent misery and disconnect. I dream of the mutual joy and love that my husband and I at times share, and could share daily. Our family life has improved so very much with just me being more aware and purposeful, but I need guidance and don't trust any relationship advice from people around me or from the rest of the internet. 

 

Any tips for how to navigate this territory? 

[barn]

Hi @Elizabeth

Sorry to hear that you had had a rough strart (I can only guess the 'gravity' of an A.C.E. of 6, mine being around 4ish... plus the caveats of subtle but constant propaganda that at times is certainly worse than just brainwashing).

After having read your post, three +1 thoughts popped up in my mind simultaneously.

1. You're most likely a brave and intelligent woman (hat raise)

2. You're taking responsibility (not only for your sons perhaps - hat raise again - but maybe because you are deciding to regain your strength?)

3. Would I be guessing correctly that you don't feel connected to your emotions at times (only feel that something is wrong) and experience 'being at the back seat, unable to influence the driver'?

+1. Do you often experience (for lack of a better word) 'a busy train-station packed with people speaking in my head' sensation? (I did, while reading you. And this is my personal experience, only saying how I felt... only an objective observation I wanted to share, maybe check with you.)

3 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

My ACE score is a 6, and I'm guessing his would be a 7.

What does it mean when you write 'guessing'?

a.  Is it because you know his A.C.E. but 'rounding' it to a more accurate figure?

b. You don't know his past. (didn't ask, he didn't want to tell, he hasn't taken the test... etc)?

c. else?

3 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Our entire relationship was founded on very shakey grounds. I think I sought him out because he was emotionally distant and his anger and desire to control was something that I felt familiar with, and I could easily fall into "managing" my own emotions of sadness, anger, and disappointment.

The way in which we see our history, the personal ethos is crucial to one's identity.

I'm not saying you're wrong or incomplete.

I would like to just mention here, what you are saying is seemingly a strong definition of what you think you did and why. A closed description, one that's filled with negative incentives and giving up/distancing from free will. Am I characterising what you wrote accurately? Please correct me if I am 'seeing things' that aren't there. (I wouldn't want to tell you what you meant, felt, thought)

4 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Most days, I feel that we are "alright," but I find that if he begins acting affectionate, sweet, or curious about me, I freak out and instantly do something that I know will make him angry and ruin the good mood.

What would you say, what's that is making you feel uneasy?

a.  the way he's acting(body language, words, the situation itself)?

b.  the implications of his actions, the direction his actions would lead to (what he probably wants with acting in that particular way) ?

c. no idea / else?

How often do you have the experience of having shared deep and meaningful things that matter to you?

- -  - enough asking for now - - -

Feel free to choose, how to go from here on...

Barnsley

 

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

Have you looked into TRE therapy? TRE stands for trauma release exercises. 

https://traumaprevention.com/

It's a very simple exercise that you can do that addresses the biological/biochemical root of trauma, and uses the in-built biological process we have to deal with it. The website has some good information on it, as well as a list of certified practitioners all over the world. Once you learn how to do it, you will be able to do it on your own time without the aid of a practitioner. It's particularly useful for dealing with early childhood trauma, as you can't go to talk therapy and talk about things that occurred to you before you could remember them.

My experience with it has been incredible. One of the effects is to make you more comfortable with social interactions, and I could really see how it could help dealing with a partner. From what you've written, it sounds to me that his attempts at affection are triggering some past trauma in you. 

Hope that's useful!

[Elizbaeth]

Thank you for the response!

Quote

6 hours ago, barn said:

3. Would I be guessing correctly that you don't feel connected to your emotions at times (only feel that something is wrong) and experience 'being at the back seat, unable to influence the driver'?

+1. Do you often experience (for lack of a better word) 'a busy train-station packed with people speaking in my head' sensation? (I did, while reading you. And this is my personal experience, only saying how I felt... only an objective observation I wanted to share, maybe check with you.)

 

Accurate. I often get very exhausted and confused by a ton of conflicting and strong emotions. It's like the crowded train station is making my claustrophobic and I just can't see where I need to go. 

6 hours ago, barn said:

My ACE score is a 6, and I'm guessing his would be a 7.

I guessed on his because it wasn't actually him taking the test. I answered based on what he has shared with me about his past. I think the answers are accurate, but it wasn't him that took the test. 

6 hours ago, barn said:

I would like to just mention here, what you are saying is seemingly a strong definition of what you think you did and why. A closed description, one that's filled with negative incentives and giving up/distancing from free will. Am I characterising what you wrote accurately? Please correct me if I am 'seeing things' that aren't there. (I wouldn't want to tell you what you meant, felt, thought)

I do think this is accurate, although I don't seem to be aware of it until after  the fallout has happened. I'm quite sure that I'm doing it because, in the past, we would have terrible fights and arguments, followed by both of us "making it up" to one another. I would begin to feel relaxed, happy, and grateful, and then inevitably I would do something to make him angry and all those good feelings would be dashed to pieces. I am fairly confident that I just feel safer not even going to a really happy place, and just keeping us "alright." 

 

That is my issue. The knee-jerk reaction part of me just wants to avoid feeling any more pain, but I do believe I'm sabotaging potential happiness and intimacy just so that it doesn't hurt as much when we crash. I think it is possible for us to move past this as a couple, but I want to do it now, before more bad water builds up under the bridge and it's too hard to turn the tide. 

7 hours ago, barn said:

How often do you have the experience of having shared deep and meaningful things that matter to you?

Not very often. This is something that really grieves me. I feel like I am running out of oxygen, emotionally-speaking, and want so badly to go to those deep, intimate places with him. The thing is, though, that I think he believes we have it. I think that he has no idea what real emotional intimacy is like, and just assumes that because we haven't cheated on one another that we are a successful couple. There have been a small handful of times when he has really opened up to me and it has been wonderful. 

[Elizbaeth]

Thank you! I will look at this. 

3 hours ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

Have you looked into TRE therapy? TRE stands for trauma release exercises. 

https://traumaprevention.com/

So I went and looked at it... This looks incredible. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Elizbaeth
more info

[barn]

Hi @Elizbaeth

I had a look of the page @Dylan Lawrence Moore

had recommended and it looks promising(for a webpage, 'the trial of the pudding is eating') . If you eventually did try it, you could chime back, sharing your experiences. I'm sure many would appreciate it.

Things are definitely moving forward, more power to you! (You remind me that pro-activity brings more of the good stuff.)

If you don't mind me being curious, (pick what you feel answering if you want)

1. Have you told your spouse about the A.C.E. test and what you can use it for?

2 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

That is my issue. The knee-jerk reaction part of me just wants to avoid feeling any more pain, but I do believe I'm sabotaging potential happiness and intimacy

2. (my amateur assertion, you're absolutely right in the first part) What happens after we feel something we'd been trying to avoid 'tooth and nail'?

2 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I think it is possible for us to move past this as a couple,

3. Let's say, that's exactly what was happening and you really appreciated it. How would that look like on the part of your husband? (what would he do, say, behave)

 

2 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

9 hours ago, barn said:

How often do you have the experience of having shared deep and meaningful things that matter to you?

Not very often. This is something that really grieves me. I feel like I am running out of oxygen, emotionally-speaking, and want so badly to go to those deep, intimate places with him. The thing is, though, that I think he believes we have it. I think that he has no idea what real emotional intimacy is like, and just assumes that because we haven't cheated on one another that we are a successful couple. There have been a small handful of times when he has really opened up to me and it has been wonderful. 

anecdote: (my workmate Laura, the 'other' Maria) I was at work once and for unforseen reasons it was just the two of us and the receptionist. We were chatting about work stuff, particularly a colleague who'd been acting weird and changed schedule recently while Laura was away. She wanted to know what had happened while she was gone and I didn't want to gossip so I only said that Maria probably found something better and moved on. Plus that she never told me she was going to so I didn't ask neither. Laura then commented that, all around her(Maria) people were having ambivalent experiences... like she was either 'too nice' or 'stingy' but never with a single clue as to why. It was that moment when Laura asked me: 'Barnsley, can I ask you something? (I answered 'Sure! But I can't guarantee a perfect answer.') Do you think she hated me or someone from here, and that's why she left? (I said: Do you remember anything that she said and could have indicated that?) No, I don't think so. We never talked. I mean we did, but always about menial, inconsequential stuff... eh, shops, food... general things. (I asked her: Do you think if she had a problem with either of us she should have spoken about it?) Yeah, I know. Maybe she was scared of something. (me: Could be. Or not. But we won't be able to figure it out without her speaking her mind and I want her to want the conversation. If I went and asked 'out of the blue' (i.e.: Maria! Why did you leave? Are you upset with me?) , she'd feel...)

4. What do you think she would have felt if I went and asked her? (I'll tell you what happened after you answered)

5. If you feel wanting to have more deep convos, have you tried friends, family?

a.  What happened? Did you feel you were able to move forward or it was just a short term 'quickfix' ?

if not,

b.  Why do you think you haven't?

 

Barnsley

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

7 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Thank you! I will look at this. 

So I went and looked at it... This looks incredible. 

4 hours ago, barn said:

I had a look of the page @Dylan Lawrence Moore

had recommended and it looks promising(for a webpage, 'the trial of the pudding is eating') . If you eventually did try it, you could chime back, sharing your experiences. I'm sure many would appreciate it.

 

I have tried it and I still do it on a regular basis, as it is easy to do at home any time. It is incredible and has completely changed my stress level and my ability to interact with people socially. It's stupid cheap to do (I learned how to do it in 3 sessions for $250. That can't even buy you two hours with a therapist), easy to perform at home, and requires no psychological complications. I'm not recommending this as an effort to ditch talk therapy, but getting your biochemicals in order is an amazing first step.

[barn]

37 minutes ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

 

I have tried it and I still do it on a regular basis, as it is easy to do at home any time. It is incredible and has completely changed my stress level and my ability to interact with people socially. It's stupid cheap to do (I learned how to do it in 3 sessions for $250. That can't even buy you two hours with a therapist), easy to perform at home, and requires no psychological complications. I'm not recommending this as an effort to ditch talk therapy, but getting your biochemicals in order is an amazing first step.

Thanks for the clarification. It seems I should have asked you first. Sorry for that.

I had already made a note when checking available instructors in the country of my stay, there were 20+. Should I choose to check it out, thanks to you I have another great recommendation.

Thanks for that and sorry again for not asking you first, my intention being was only staying cautious.

Barnsley

 

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

16 minutes ago, barn said:

Thanks for the clarification. It seems I should have asked you first. Sorry for that.

I had already made a note when checking available instructors in the country of my stay, there were 20+. Should I choose to check it out, thanks to you I have another great recommendation.

Thanks for that and sorry again for not asking you first, my intention being was only staying cautious.

Barnsley

 

Word. 

[meetjoeblack]

Husband is affectionate and you respond with doing something to make him angry? It makes me question why men get married anymore especially when sex is just a free for all now a days with tinder and bumble.

[barn]

23 minutes ago, meetjoeblack said:

Husband is affectionate and you respond with doing something to make him angry? It makes me question why men get married anymore especially when sex is just a free for all now a days with tinder and bumble.

Hi @meetjoeblack

If I'm getting the meaning of your post and that you've not asked her anything (yet) is a sign of having an opinion but not checking it's validity?

I'd suggest more (much more in fact) consideration to the myriad of other, currently obscured elements.

Would you agree that's a fair and constructive suggestion?

Barnsley

[meetjoeblack]

Affection is met with trolling in a marriage?

And your response is to white knight? Interesting.

[barn]

Thank you,

for being honest.

No problem, you are free to not answer my question, won't ask again. I hoped to be constructive, seemed you were making a mistake.

Barnsley

Edited December 2, 2017 by barn
constructivity

[Elizbaeth]

On 12/1/2017 at 2:22 PM, barn said:

Hi @Elizbaeth

I had a look of the page @Dylan Lawrence Moore

had recommended and it looks promising(for a webpage, 'the trial of the pudding is eating') . If you eventually did try it, you could chime back, sharing your experiences. I'm sure many would appreciate it.

Things are definitely moving forward, more power to you! (You remind me that pro-activity brings more of the good stuff.)

If you don't mind me being curious, (pick what you feel answering if you want)

1. Have you told your spouse about the A.C.E. test and what you can use it for?

2. (my amateur assertion, you're absolutely right in the first part) What happens after we feel something we'd been trying to avoid 'tooth and nail'?

3. Let's say, that's exactly what was happening and you really appreciated it. How would that look like on the part of your husband? (what would he do, say, behave)

 

anecdote: (my workmate Laura, the 'other' Maria) I was at work once and for unforseen reasons it was just the two of us and the receptionist. We were chatting about work stuff, particularly a colleague who'd been acting weird and changed schedule recently while Laura was away. She wanted to know what had happened while she was gone and I didn't want to gossip so I only said that Maria probably found something better and moved on. Plus that she never told me she was going to so I didn't ask neither. Laura then commented that, all around her(Maria) people were having ambivalent experiences... like she was either 'too nice' or 'stingy' but never with a single clue as to why. It was that moment when Laura asked me: 'Barnsley, can I ask you something? (I answered 'Sure! But I can't guarantee a perfect answer.') Do you think she hated me or someone from here, and that's why she left? (I said: Do you remember anything that she said and could have indicated that?) No, I don't think so. We never talked. I mean we did, but always about menial, inconsequential stuff... eh, shops, food... general things. (I asked her: Do you think if she had a problem with either of us she should have spoken about it?) Yeah, I know. Maybe she was scared of something. (me: Could be. Or not. But we won't be able to figure it out without her speaking her mind and I want her to want the conversation. If I went and asked 'out of the blue' (i.e.: Maria! Why did you leave? Are you upset with me?) , she'd feel...)

4. What do you think she would have felt if I went and asked her? (I'll tell you what happened after you answered)

5. If you feel wanting to have more deep convos, have you tried friends, family?

a.  What happened? Did you feel you were able to move forward or it was just a short term 'quickfix' ?

if not,

b.  Why do you think you haven't?

 

Barnsley

I kinda think I get what you mean by this last part with your coworker Maria. Let me take a stab at it. 

 

I’m guessing Maria either was surprised at you thinking her choices about work had anything to do with you or the other coworker, OR she’d wishes she had been able to speak with you more openly while she was still working there. She might have felt happy that you asked her.

 

I don’t really have many people in my life that I consider real friends. I’ve had two “real” friends in life. They live far away now and we still talk often, but I have a hard time finding people who I have fun with and who also actually want me to be honest with them. I have pseudo-deep conversations with family. 

 

Not sure what what you mean by “quick fix.” Was what a quick fix? A conversation?

11 hours ago, meetjoeblack said:

Husband is affectionate and you respond with doing something to make him angry? It makes me question why men get married anymore especially when sex is just a free for all now a days with tinder and bumble.

 Yeah, you’ve got a point. I instantly regretted what I did, because it brought me no where near my goal of intimacy and just pushed him away. I never realized how many character flaws I had until I yoked myself up to another person for forever... I wasn’t a “bad” person, but I was very pretty and I think because of that no one ever told me I did anything wrong. When you live with someone, though, every flaw comes to light and I’m hoping I can correct myself fast enough before all his good feelings go away.

[meetjoeblack]

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

Yeah, you’ve got a point. I instantly regretted what I did, because it brought me no where near my goal of intimacy and just pushed him away. I never realized how many character flaws I had until I yoked myself up to another person for forever... I wasn’t a “bad” person, but I was very pretty and I think because of that no one ever told me I did anything wrong. When you live with someone, though, every flaw comes to light and I’m hoping I can correct myself fast enough before all his good feelings go away.

I am super fascinated by female psychology. As a young boy, I use to try first to understand, and rationalize. I no longer do that. I simply do not have the time for it. I approach and pursue. Either a girl is interested or she is not. Any form of ambivalence sends me into the next set of approach. I would not say you are a bad person. I find society promotes this 'get out of jail free card' for women. Just scream white privilege or misogyny and it is suppose to negate any form of constructive criticism. 

I credit you though for seeking self-knowledge. FDR is mainly a male audience. More women are definitely welcome. A lot of men are stupid to by negating said constructive criticisms based upon a woman's appearance as it does not last and the problems remain. A lot of guys get duped by looks. Like you, I am seeking self-knowledge, working on putting my talents, and skills forth. I want to accumulate the sort of resources to live a good life. Ideally, I would like to meet the sort of woman first before accumulating that sort of lifestyle otherwise, I would much prefer to just be single and use bumble (lol). 

I don't blame you. I respect your seeking change. I work with a lot of women over the years. Many are entitled as fuck. They can party, drink, sleep around, and can't cook or clean themselves. Many spent their youth running through bad boys, have cratered SMV, and are pissed off they cannot get the ring. You did not take this life path. You have two kids. You've built a life together with this man. Similar to A.A., awareness is the first step. Changing this sort of behavior is ideal as the kids will see become aware of it be it consciously or unconsciously. Become aware of what behaviors your husband is doing that triggers this. If showing a woman affection triggers this, therapy maybe an ideal route to take. 

 

Welcome to FDR. Good luck on your journey and relationship. 

[barn]

6 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Not sure what what you mean by “quick fix.” Was what a quick fix? A conversation?

No problem, I sometimes don't explain very clearly what I mean. It's good that you asked.

I was referring to short interactions that are generally too superficial to have a lasting effect, at times they reveal lack of interest. The person who'd asked and wanted to pour out it's heart usually ending up with the sensation of either having been gently deflected (wondering if there was something that the other person didn't want to discuss out of fear, the topic was anxiety provoking... etc. / couldn't discuss, perhaps not connecting, understanding and just 'saying what everyone supposed to say', stuff that's in movies, sadly too).

i.e.:

(After me opening about a frustration of mine to the 'quickfix' people...they'd say things like

- 'Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Don't worry, things will get better.'

- 'Yeah, I know, it's hard. You're a nice guy(I am, except when I'm not... hahaha) , I'm sure you will find what works in the end.'

- 'It's complicated, I know. Maybe you just focus on it too much. Relax, let it go!'

- 'I know it's hard for you but don't worry, God wouldn't allow you to choose a challenge that you aren't prepared to take on.' (without ever being asked if I was religious too)

--- After which I would normally remember to never open up to those people or if we had a deeper connection / history together I'd go a different route... Explaining how what they answered is too general and I feel that their response isn't helping me one bit.

6 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I don’t really have many people in my life that I consider real friends. I’ve had two “real” friends in life. They live far away now and we still talk often, but I have a hard time finding people who I have fun with and who also actually want me to be honest with them. I have pseudo-deep conversations with family. 

It's something that IS a big challenge for me, has been. I had ended 3+1 times (8yrs+ 'friendships' after coming to the conclusion / deciding that proximity isolation is bad and if I don't respect my friend, the relationship has no value to me other than staying acquaintances. Besides, doesn't worth the investments of a close friendship, I am wasting my(and other's) time with those people or worse I'm enabling abuse(soft abuse that is).

In my mind the two topics (deep relationships and my anecdote) are tightly connected.

6 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I’m guessing Maria [1] either was surprised at you thinking her choices about work had anything to do with you or the other coworker, OR [2] she’d wishes she had been able to speak with you more openly while she was still working there. She might have felt happy that you asked her.

1.[1]+[2] I'm a straightforwardly aligned individual. The general rule of thumb for me is, I will speak my mind (except for obvious 'red flags', inappropriate palce/time) with asking for permission to do so. If I had to put my experience with this approach into percentages... (my approximation, rounded assertions IT DOESN'T MEAN it is how everything / everyone operates, thinks... I am trying to give you what I concluded un-filtered. I might be very well wrong.)

- 90% would deny validity or deflect from the get-go (mostly with rationalisations, no curiosity of my meaning to clarify, understand whatsoever, sea of immediate 'red-flags')

- 5% would respond neutrally (maybe ask 1 or 2 questions back, but usually within a short period of time 'something would come up that was 'obviously' had to be dealt with(, naturally) and the conversation would end there and then)

- of that 5% remaining, I could hash out my message(confirm same level of understanding) and ask for more from the other person's thought processes , eventually discovering (each of us) something fascinating, useful.

BUT!

- the 90% afterwards steer clear of me

- the first 5% would throttle back to 'loving from the distance'

- the last 5% would be more relaxed and not beat around the bush in the future about things, give an all-knowing smile/nod except for the process of showing intent of wanting to move closer to each other after that 'energising' convo... beats me(well, not really)

- In the end, if I looked back how much real friendships was developed from the 100% = 1-2 after meeting 120-200 people(actual statistics from 789 people I've met regarding this subject within the last 1,5yrs) each and EVERY ONE OF THEM would fade away(forgotten plants) as reciprocity wouldn't be present. 

i. e. (they'd ask for my contact, inviting me to social events, agreeing to meet... every time I did, it would fail for lack of following through from the person who was 'supposedly also interested'. I respect people's boundaries, if I feel / detect that I'm too much, I disengage and wait to see if there's a call back... seldom there is.)

My conclusions and why I am not sure how to tackle the question of finding enough deep and meaningful connections:

1. I'm clearly not efficient. Most people are terrified to speak or hear the truth.

2. You can't 'choose' friends, but you can be chosen and then you get to decide if that's what you want.

3. Reciprocal and deep relationships require virtuous people, staying honest. Virtues require connectedness with the true-self. As people age, so the fog thickens people allow (and around 30ish or having a comfortable looking life:) . The effort to re-evaluate usually comes from emergencies, catastrophic outcomes... if the danger ebbs away, so does most often than not the previous curiosity too... until the next unforeseen disaster, at which stage the idea of turning the tide is even more disheartening (seemingly, understandably).

What did 'Maria' respond?

She didn't. I never asked her. My line of thinking was: If she was capable of acting upon her beliefs without wanting to check their validity or work on something more preferable, I would have gotten two possible reactions:

a. Her feeling cornered, therefore me starting out on the wrong foothold, kind of what you wrote but you put it (it's interesting that you did that) neutrally. 'Surprised' doesn't carry +/- connotations(maybe slightly annoyed, right?).

"I’m guessing Maria [1] either was surprised at you thinking her choices about work... "

b. I think I've explained before (above) why I could have thought she wasn't going to be interested saying the truth... why bother, I thought.

///by the way, 2months later it was turned out, something I once said in a conversation with others, unrelated to her (feminism discussion) did have a part in her departure... but I won't find out what that was and why it bothered her, nor will the rest who knew her as she never really spoke her mind truly to anyone (to my knowledge) ///

I am not trying to be pushy, so feel free to do as you feel. I have noticed that you haven't responded yet about my previous questions from my previous message (1. 2. 3.)

How is the conversation by the way for you? Are you enjoying it? Would you prefer to suggest me that I changed something? Feel free to suggest, please.

Barnsley

Edited December 3, 2017 by barn
caveat, disclaimer regarding my assertions

[Elizbaeth]

10 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

1. Have you told your spouse about the A.C.E. test and what you can use it for?

2. (my amateur assertion, you're absolutely right in the first part) What happens after we feel something we'd been trying to avoid 'tooth and nail'?

3. Let's say, that's exactly what was happening and you really appreciated it. How would that look like on the part of your husband? (what would he do, say, behave)

Ok @barn I’ll respond! I’m enjoying the conversation and I think I’m getting a lot out of it. I find it a little difficult to clearly follow a lot of your thoughts. Maybe I could understand you better with voice and face inflections, but I find your writing format a little fuzzy and unclear. However, I’m not quite sure that I’m  getting the response formatting right on my end.

 

Here are my responses to the questions. 

1) No, I haven’t told him specifically about the ACE test  and/or what it could be used for. I actually think that both of us could benefit from counseling (not marriage counselling, but as individuals looking to learn more and get some personal growth), but I don’t want to just throw “here are a dozen ways to fix yourself” at my husband. In other words, I don’t want to be negatively criticizing him.  I do believe I CAN bring it up, but I think I need to be sensitive about how I do it. 

 

2) Well, I usually experience a watershed of emotion, followed by the certainty that I at least now know what needs to be done and I can stop being anxious.

 

3) I think he would behave as he if currently behaving. I might only add that we would have more “hard” conversations, but if I ignore my anxiety and listen to my instincts, I think that will come as he feels safer in the relationship. Which is why I need to figure out a way to remain aware and cognizant in situations where I want to fall back on bad, though familiar, habits. I originally was fishing around for tips on mechanisms to train myself to do this.

 

9 hours ago, meetjoeblack said:

am super fascinated by female psychology. As a young boy, I use to try first to understand, and rationalize. I no longer do that. I simply do not have the time for it. I approach and pursue. Either a girl is interested or she is not. Any form of ambivalence sends me into the next set of approach. I would not say you are a bad person. I find society promotes this 'get out of jail free card' for women. Just scream white privilege or misogyny and it is suppose to negate any form of constructive criticism. 

@meetjoeblack Ouch. 

Ok. I totally get it. It’s all too true too many times. 

I was always definitely interested in my husband. He’s smarter than anybody I’ve ever met, he’s stupidly attractive  and we both wanted the same things from our lives. It was always a 100% yes to him. I don’t think my issues are about him. I think such a close relationship “triggers” the problems in me. Me hiding behind anger isn’t necessarily about rejecting him - it’s about me being scared of my own feelings. I think the only reason I’m willing to face it at all is because I want the relationship, because I want him and want him to want me. Lol women are different from me, certainly, but our psychology is not incomprehensible. We’re only human, after all. 

9 hours ago, meetjoeblack said:

They can party, drink, sleep around, and can't cook or clean themselves. Many spent their youth running through bad boys, have cratered SMV, and are pissed off they cannot get the ring. You did not take this life path. You have two kids. You've built a life together with this man. Similar to A.A., awareness is the first step. Changing this sort of behavior is ideal as the kids will see become aware of it be it consciously or unconsciously. Become aware of what behaviors your husband is doing that triggers this. If showing a woman affection triggers this, therapy maybe an ideal route to take. 

Right. I am a stay at home mom, so at the moment my personal income and childcare situation allows for therapy from the Internet. I don’t trust most of my “real life” relationships and Reddit is pretty iffy at best. 

 

Funny how I found FDR. My husband and I initially “clicked” because I told him my dream was to homeschool my own kids. We dated, he introduced me to a subreddit /theredpill, and I found Molyneaux and J. Peterson from there. I love listening to them while I clean. Giving up my work has be and hard, and being the caretaker of two babies under 2 is lots of menial tasks. I’m a poop connoisseur and quite literally spend hours “walking” my baby to sleep.   While this is what I want to do, I get very intellectually bored, and FDR and Peterson’s videos have really helped me. 

 

[meetjoeblack]

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

Quote

@meetjoeblack Ouch. 

Ok. I totally get it. It’s all too true too many times. 

I was always definitely interested in my husband. He’s smarter than anybody I’ve ever met, he’s stupidly attractive  and we both wanted the same things from our lives. It was always a 100% yes to him. I don’t think my issues are about him. I think such a close relationship “triggers” the problems in me. Me hiding behind anger isn’t necessarily about rejecting him - it’s about me being scared of my own feelings. I think the only reason I’m willing to face it at all is because I want the relationship, because I want him and want him to want me. Lol women are different from me, certainly, but our psychology is not incomprehensible. We’re only human, after all. 

 

I like Stephen Covey's "first seek to understand, then to be understood." 

Quote

Right. I am a stay at home mom, so at the moment my personal income and childcare situation allows for therapy from the Internet. I don’t trust most of my “real life” relationships and Reddit is pretty iffy at best. 

Reddit is a leftist shit hole for the most part. Some kid got attacked and threatened to be doxed earlier this year for making a funny meme of Trump pummeling CNN. I would recommend avoiding the place like the plague unless into torrents. I hear it is fantastic resource for pirating lol

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

Funny how I found FDR. My husband and I initially “clicked” because I told him my dream was to homeschool my own kids. We dated, he introduced me to a subreddit /theredpill, and I found Molyneaux and J. Peterson from there. I love listening to them while I clean. Giving up my work has be and hard, and being the caretaker of two babies under 2 is lots of menial tasks. I’m a poop connoisseur and quite literally spend hours “walking” my baby to sleep.   While this is what I want to do, I get very intellectually bored, and FDR and Peterson’s videos have really helped me. 

 

I have been pretty skeptical of therapy however, seeing Dr. Peterson's material as well as a variety of products (self authoring, Personality Test, Maps of meaning, Biblical Series, etc), it has changed my perspective. I think he is excellent at what he does. He is also hyper articulate and verbal. The way he can extrapolate meaning from stories and provide the sort of enlightening insight the way he does is incredible. Like you, I have found a ton of value in Peterson's series. Much of his classes are recorded so, it is as though you are attending his programs for free. 

Congratulations. Again, the stay at home mother role seemingly is disrespected in 2017 but, only by the ignorant. Studies have show, children have a much higher IQ with a stay at home mom versus daycare. God forbid, the nightmare stories of nanny cams. Furthermore, a lot of little boys in these daycare facilities are treated pretty poorly by a lot of the women in these environments (Source: Dr. Helen Smith's book Men on Strike), many of the women being divorced, feminists, and or single moms. You're doing great by sacrificing "career woman" choosing to be a free thinker rather than, following the beaten path in society. Good for you. 

 

Please continue to share your story going forward. Good luck to you and your family.

[barn]

44 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

 I’ll respond! I’m enjoying the conversation and I think I’m getting a lot out of it. I find it a little difficult to clearly follow a lot of your thoughts. Maybe I could understand you better with voice and face inflections, but I find your writing format a little fuzzy and unclear. However, I’m not quite sure that I’m  getting the response formatting right on my end.

That's great and a bit embarrassing too. I mean English isn't my first language and perhaps I dunno... (could you be a bit more specific, I could maybe learn something about my style). I have had no trouble understanding you or the way you write, so that's good. Just as until now, let me know in the future as well if I'm not getting through.

44 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

1) No, I haven’t told him specifically about the ACE test  and/or what it could be used for. I

Why not? (There must be a good reason, I'm guessing.)

44 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

I actually think that both of us could benefit from counseling (not marriage counselling, but as individuals looking to learn more and get some personal growth),

I think the basis (getting guidance) is a brilliant idea. Yet, I'm surprised why marriage counselling isn't at the top for you. It's like, 'Imagine a team preparing the individual players separately before a match.' Just my way of thinking regarding married life.

(I'm not sure why you'd rather do it separately. Here again, there's more than what meets the eye.)

44 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

but I don’t want to just throw “here are a dozen ways to fix yourself” at my husband. In other words, I don’t want to be negatively criticizing him.  I do believe I CAN bring it up, but I think I need to be sensitive about how I do it. 

Whoa! It would have been interesting to see the accompanying thoughts that emerged for you at time of writing this part.

Of course, you shouldn't act like someone who didn't care about the other person's success if you claimed you cared for him, that's rude and contradictory. But nobody said that you should do it in that manner. You characterised it as such and it could be (I think)useful figuring out the reasons as to why your mind immediately went there. Of course, anything that's causing someone difficult should be met with empathy and curiosity to the experience of the other person.

(i. e. - I asked you about your impressions of the convo to make sure you are enjoying it. I know what I've been thinking... (I hear my thoughts constantly) but I need to pay attention to your experience just as much... periodically asking, adjusting if necessary because you asked/signalled for a change... and since I'm open to negotiations, it's only going to be more productive. This is an equilateral setting.)

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

2) Well, I usually experience a watershed of emotion, followed by the certainty that I at least now know what needs to be done and I can stop being anxious.

Sounds like catharsis to me. A big release and moment of clarity.

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

3) I think he would behave as he if currently behaving. I might only add that we would have more “hard” conversations,

This (my amateur view) is controversial, paradoxical and I can't integrate it into 'the big picture' . Isn't he emotionally distant at the moment? Aren't you avoiding (for you) difficult topics to share with him? Which he doesn't see or choosing to not bring up?

The same catharsis awaits the both of you btw(maybe he would be more open if he could let go all the struggle and anger that's within him) , not just "hard conversations". Sure, the road is rocky but gradually more smooth and enjoyable.

Life isn't about survival and damage control. It can be, but only if you don't figure out what would be better.

You could Ask him, what would make him happy and when he did ask you the same, you could tell your ideas for a great! life. If you two shared more, I don't see how you would feel any anxiety or fear for the future... Believe me, he has his own set of doubts and fears too. Maybe he's suffering even more, just he's also worse at asking for help. (Remember, ACE 7) That's one of the functions of the test, it helps you identify areas to check for the possibility of needing help. So you can be more cautious. i.e. a soldier with strong ptsd (post traumatic stress disorder) if screened, won't be put in jobs with high probability of unexpected stress or at least will be offered a course on meditation techniques...etc. dunno, but you get my point.

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

. I originally was fishing around for tips on mechanisms to train myself to do this.

Please don't do it alone. Or think that you can help him by 'managing' your feelings / thoughts.

Consider these:

- Your circumstances has a dynamic to it, which was agreed to and it's rules had been set at the beginning of the relationship, in the past. If you wish to change the rules but on your own, the dynamic will break down. You have to have his full co-operation to change the relationship. He has to want what you want. And vice versa after negotiations. You're a team! Make sure your teammate is absolutely sure he can count on you, no matter what!

- The stronger a bad habit, the more time it takes to re-write. It can take easily a year or two.

- Achieving 5% improvement instead of fully succeeding is better than not having tried. Just like smoking, if you broke your commitment temporarily.... it's not the end of the world. Start quiting immediately again, as many times you need to, in order to finally live smoke free! Once you have what you wanted, it doesn't matter how many times you have tried.

Barnsley

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

13 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I wasn’t a “bad” person, but I was very pretty and I think because of that no one ever told me I did anything wrong. When you live with someone, though, every flaw comes to light and I’m hoping I can correct myself fast enough before all his good feelings go away.

I don't know if this will be a helpful exercise for you, but try getting things done throughout the day as if you weren't pretty. Assume that you're doing something wrong and you need to do it better. One of the banes of male existence is we'll put up with an insane amount of crap from hot women just because they're hot, and often we won't even realize it. I had a relationship with a prior girlfriend instantaneously melt before my eyes when I started to treat her the way I treated everyone else, i.e. hold them accountable to what they say. She was very hot (like a 9) and also very smart--probably why I was so attracted to her. Throughout our relationship (1 year +) I always felt that something was going on that wasn't to my favor, and one day it clicked to me that she was holding me responsible to the things that SHE had done, so I was responsible for my actions and hers. On this day that it clicked, we had a conversation where I started to hold her responsible to what she had done in the past and the things she had said, both in the past and in that conversation, and it was like she transformed into a completely different person. All the intelligence that I had found so attractive vanished as she switched to obvious and petty sophistry games--which utterly blew my mind, because we had regular discussions on proper reasoning, argumentation, and how to deal with sophistry. Not only did she understand that I knew that what she was doing was manipulative, she had seen me FIRST HAND deal with manipulative people repeatedly.

She knew exactly what I was capable of and willing to do, yet pulled that bullshit on me anyway. On the day of that conversation I refused to yield and held her to her word, and she simply couldn't handle it. I had taken her pretty pass away and she had no idea what to do, and switched into sophistry which she knew damn well shouldn't have worked against me. After that conversation I told my dick to STFU and I broke up with her, and refused to engage in any talk about getting back together unless she addressed what we had spoken about in that conversation. She never did. She eventually stopped calling me when she realized I was interested in someone else.
 

It's things like this that really turn men sardonic towards women in general. We are so used to being hounded, attacked, criticized, shit-tested, made fun of, told we're wrong, etc etc--even if we did something right. Compliments to us sometimes come as sarcastic insults. The more I see this sort of behavior out of women, and I see a small amount of it from my wife as well, the more I want to turn into a misogynist and say, "Bitch, get back into the kitchen. Men are speaking. I'll start putting the toilet seat down when you stop voting."

If you do try to assume that you're doing things wrong, it will be really hard at first. But if you can get it down, I think you'll be a lot more open to criticism and much more appreciative of the work that men do around you. I don't know how much it will help you with your intimacy issue (again, I would recommend trying out the TRE thing immediately and see how that works), but I think it will help you deal with your trauma.

 

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

2 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

2) Well, I usually experience a watershed of emotion, followed by the certainty that I at least now know what needs to be done and I can stop being anxious.

Did you grow up with a narcissistic parent or parents? You might want to look into it. You can find a bunch of good articles from a quick google search. Experiencing a watershed of emotion as well as anxiety like that can be a result of growing up in a dangerous space, where you have to constantly be on the look out to protect yourself. Even if the danger isn't physical, narcissistic parents feed emotionally and energetically off their children, and will erupt in anger the moment they feel that their food might be taken away (i.e. the moment the child shows any independent personality traits). Growing up like this can cause the child to continue have a constantly racing mind and constant anxiety about <anything> when they become an adult.

I know this first hand, as I had a narcissistic mother. I never knew my mind was "racing" (I had nothing to compare to) until a therapist friend pointed it out to me. I realized I was constantly assessing my surroundings for danger and in a chronic state of assuming that I was going to be emotionally attacked by someone at any given second. My friend pointing this out to me really helped me to accurately assess my surroundings: is there a real danger here or not? Usually there is not, and now I can allow myself to calm down.

[barn]

8 minutes ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

I know this first hand, as I had a narcissistic mother. I never knew my mind was "racing" (I had nothing to compare to) until a therapist friend pointed it out to me. I realized I was constantly assessing my surroundings for danger and in a chronic state of assuming that I was going to be emotionally attacked by someone at any given second. My friend pointing this out to me really helped me to accurately assess my surroundings: is there a real danger here or not? Usually there is not, and now I can allow myself to calm down.

Yep. Can totally attest to it.

Both of my parents are high in Narcissism. They didn't care about me, my father doesn't know to this day my accurate year of birth, my mother what food I love/hate(a few examples) and they had two decades to learn until I left.

I had all sorts of trouble socialising. Feeling constantly watched and well, I had mentioned how it's been a challenge to find true friendships.

I occasionally have to remind myself

Am I in real danger?

 the criticism I fear constructive therefore well-intended or is it to manipulate me?

Barnsley

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

13 minutes ago, barn said:

Yep. Can totally attest to it.

Both of my parents are high in Narcissism. They didn't care about me, my father doesn't know to this day my accurate year of birth, my mother what food I love/hate(a few examples) and they had two decades to learn until I left.

I had all sorts of trouble socialising. Feeling constantly watched and well, I had mentioned how it's been a challenge to find true friendships.

I occasionally have to remind myself

Am I in real danger?

 the criticism I fear constructive therefore well-intended or is it to manipulate me?

Barnsley

Dude. TRE. Do it. You will thank me later.

[barn]

Just now, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

Dude. TRE. Do it. You will thank me later.

Sigh. I am being told by my 'meco associates' that you're more than likely coming from a genuine place.

Quick question.

Have you done Jordan B Peterson's Past Authoring suite?

Barnsley

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

2 minutes ago, barn said:

Sigh. I am being told by my 'meco associates' that you're more than likely coming from a genuine place.

Mreh?

2 minutes ago, barn said:

Quick question.

Have you done Jordan B Peterson's Past Authoring suite?

No, but I've heard about it and I'm very interested in it.

[barn]

1 minute ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

Mreh?

No, but I've heard about it and I'm very interested in it.

1.Round table, everyone equal distance, no ruler or permanent authority. Every speaker has their forte and because they do, they all know how specialities are hard to develop and preferably worth deferring authority to one versed in a field. Everyone is allowed to comment on everything and the rest will respectfully listen. (Yes, everyone and no name-calling or underhandedness. Disagreements, arguing, being upset/annoyed ... sure no problem, but all civilised.)

- Those are my different personality aspects. -

Stefan's theory, he modelled it after Freud's id, ego, super-ego I 'hink.

2. My only hesitation is that I am looking for a permanent route, with gradually increasing certainty and knowledge of myself.

I can (imagine) see how TRE is great but I will be eventually back where I had started. Like bathing or eating.

That's why I did the BIG 5 PERSONALITY ASSESSMENT of JP and won't ever do any other test anymore intentionally. I absolutely been presented with the best set of pointers regarding my goal there.

Barnsley

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

6 hours ago, barn said:

- Those are my different personality aspects. -

Gotcha. Mecosystem. Took me a sec.

 

6 hours ago, barn said:

2. My only hesitation is that I am looking for a permanent route, with gradually increasing certainty and knowledge of myself.

I can (imagine) see how TRE is great but I will be eventually back where I had started. Like bathing or eating.

That's why I did the BIG 5 PERSONALITY ASSESSMENT of JP and won't ever do any other test anymore intentionally. I absolutely been presented with the best set of pointers regarding my goal there

I don't know what this means. TRE reduces your time spent in flight or more and overall helps you deal with deep-seated trauma, as well as makes you more open in social settings. My recommendation is based off my own experience, as I genuinely believe you will feel better is all aspects of your life. If you don't think it's worth your time, then don't do it.

[barn]

8 hours ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

Gotcha. Mecosystem. Took me a sec.

 

I don't know what this means. TRE reduces your time spent in flight or more and overall helps you deal with deep-seated trauma, as well as makes you more open in social settings. My recommendation is based off my own experience, as I genuinely believe you will feel better is all aspects of your life. If you don't think it's worth your time, then don't do it.

I didn't get smarter on what you had trouble not understanding. Also, I still think that the TRE could be a great, potentially efficient tool for maintenance.

Let me try again.

If I got to the source of the initiator of my fight or flight, if I could manifest it in front of me, I would be able to absolve it. Accept it as a part of me and knowing what it meant, why it was there I could gradually re-establish the way I dealt with it's effects. Because of yet it's an X factor, it's effects are coming from an unknown direction, past history. (What we don't understand, we project / experience from the 'backseat')

i. e. : When I understood that I had a tendency to double down and try to convince the unreasonable before, getting a deep understanding how it developed in me growing up with manipulators brought me to a point of clarity. I still do feel the urge to argue with those individuals, but muuuch less than before. I simply disengage when the conversation reaches the 'obviously no true curiosity from the other' point and with a sensation of relief I simply move on. And it works because I feel I got to keep myself from going into an unproductive dynamic and the other partner usually gets uninterested by the second or angrily withdraws(not having feasted on my anxiety, their projection falling on deaf ears).

+1

I use a breathing technique (count of 8in,8hold,8exhale deeeep &slow breaths) when I'm having trouble falling asleep. It's nothing more really than just increasing oxygen levels in the brain and facilitating muscle relaxation as a whole. I do it, because I don't always make the time to reach down to the roots of my anxiety and negotiate a positive outlook. So, those days when I'm short on time, I circumvent what would be ultimately preferable but I also know the thought pattern will return. That's why ultimately, proper inner self-talk would be preferable.

 

Hope, you understand now all. If not, please ask specifically or quote me where you felt that I wasn't clear.

Barnsley

Edited December 4, 2017 by barn
grammar, clarifying a bit

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

10 hours ago, barn said:

I didn't get smarter on what you had trouble not understanding. Also, I still think that the TRE could be a great, potentially efficient tool for maintenance.

Let me try again.

...

Hope, you understand now all. If not, please ask specifically or quote me where you felt that I wasn't clear.

Barnsley

You're overthinking it. Just do it (or don't).

[Elizbaeth]

23 hours ago, barn said:

Quick question.

Have you done Jordan B Peterson's Past Authoring suite?

Bought the past, present and future self-authoring deal 2 for 1 on sale. Total score.

 

23 hours ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

Did you grow up with a narcissistic parent or parents? You might want to look into it. You can find a bunch of good articles from a quick google search. Experiencing a watershed of emotion as well as anxiety like that can be a result of growing up in a dangerous space, where you have to constantly be on the look out to protect yourself. Even if the danger isn't physical, narcissistic parents feed emotionally and energetically off their children, and will erupt in anger the moment they feel that their food might be taken away (i.e. the moment the child shows any independent personality traits). Growing up like this can cause the child to continue have a constantly racing mind and constant anxiety about <anything> when they become an adult

I don't know. I kinda just feel deflated and sorta blind if I try to think about my parents... Like the screen just fills with static and I just can't come up with anything, good or bad. 

 

23 hours ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

I don't know if this will be a helpful exercise for you, but try getting things done throughout the day as if you weren't pretty. Assume that you're doing something wrong and you need to do it better. One of the banes of male existence is we'll put up with an insane amount of crap from hot women just because they're hot, and often we won't even realize it.

LOL. I have so much to say in response to this!! When you said I should try not to be pretty, my first thought was, "Well, pregnancy did that quite effectively." I went from being feeling very sought-after, attractive, charming, and pleased with my physical appearance to having zero control over anything. Thoughts, emotions, physical capabilities, active participation in 98% of what I found enjoyable were no longer within the realm of anything I could exert personal control over. I was one of the lucky women to get "the mask of pregnancy," which meant that during pregnancy and a few months after my face was spotted like an appaloosa pony. My hair turned into a witch's broom and my nose swelled up. I had some terrible heartburn, and felt like a crummy old man. I had this desperate, emotional, urgent desire to eat everything, but I couldn't swallow more than a few bites without severe indigestion or nausea. I wanted to be that glowing pregnant woman that has taken over instagram, but the reality is that I made the scariest SJW look like a beauty queen. Fortunately for me I returned to normal after each pregnancy, but yeah, I know what it's like to not be pretty lol. The craziest thing, too, was when I went to the gym and tried to fight the pregnancy weight gain, all the guys that I have previously scorned for checking me out suddenly acted as if I had a sickness, and if they made eye contact or acknowledged my presence, they might suddenly "catch my disease." It was both hilarious and really sobering to realize that so few people had been interested in me for reasons other than the most superficial. 

Second thought I has was, "Men are so dumb." Ok. So men aren't dumb. Men are quite heroic and capable of awe-inspiring things. BUT men are slaves to their sex drives, and will make themselves into fools for something as fading as a face. I understand, to an extent. I think that sex drive is partly what gives a man his power. But as a woman - a woman who wants her beauty to be appreciated, no less - I found it very unflattering and very insulting to know that people were tolerating things that they didn't like, that I was being kept around not for what I was a person (the good and the bad), but for something which I had no say in, no choice or power, and was random. I want my husband to look at me and think, "Wow, I'm so glad that I found this person whom I love so much, and am so happy to be in her company, and how lucky is it that I also this she's the prettiest girl I've ever seen?" But I would feel very robbed and cheated if I found out that he didn't actually like me, my preferences, my choices and desires, but only liked something that is more or less out of my control or input. I think, though, that the only solution for this is for men to take the time to talk with a girl they find attractive, and for girls to be sympathetic to this and not exploit it. But I've tell you a secret. When I was a little girl, I fantasized about a man who would save the world. I wanted a Hero of all Heroes. And of course, in my fantasy, he would love me passionately and deeply and think I was his beautiful jewel and I would gladly be his prize, but he never once gave up his mission for me. If he had, I could not have loved him (in my little girl fantasies). Women love men and need men to be men of courage, conviction, and truth. None of that bows to superficial "goodies" like mere physical beauty. 

On 12/3/2017 at 12:32 PM, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

It's things like this that really turn men sardonic towards women in general. We are so used to being hounded, attacked, criticized, shit-tested, made fun of, told we're wrong, etc etc--even if we did something right. Compliments to us sometimes come as sarcastic insults. The more I see this sort of behavior out of women, and I see a small amount of it from my wife as well, the more I want to turn into a misogynist and say, "Bitch, get back into the kitchen. Men are speaking. I'll start putting the toilet seat down when you stop voting."

Yeah, I get that, too. I was very bitter towards men. I assumed that men were something to be kept at arm's length if kept around at all, because they were cold, heartless, back-stabbing and cruel, without compassion, and who could do nothing more than use and consume girls to feed their own insatiable egos. But I finally realized that some men are like this, and some are not like this at all, and some are a mix and aren't really aware of the pain they cause. It wasn't until I met my husband that I was even aware of the ways in which women used and consumed men. Once I saw it, it was chilling, and I felt some pretty deep remorse for parts of my past. 

 

On 12/3/2017 at 12:26 PM, barn said:

Believe me, he has his own set of doubts and fears too. Maybe he's suffering even more, just he's also worse at asking for help. (Remember, ACE 7) That's one of the functions of the test, it helps you identify areas to check for the possibility of needing help. So you can be more cautious. i.e. a soldier with strong ptsd (post traumatic stress disorder) if screened, won't be put in jobs with high probability of unexpected stress or at least will be offered a course on meditation techniques...etc. dunno, but you get my point.

I think he is, at times. He was actually a marine and had two tours in Fallujah, and wanted to be a marine because 1) he thought he could get girls, 2) he wanted college money, and 3) he had had an abusive stepdad (one of many) who was a marine, and he wanted to prove that he could do anything that guy could do and do it better. Both of his parents have been terrible neglectful and cruel.

 

On 12/3/2017 at 12:03 PM, meetjoeblack said:

Congratulations. Again, the stay at home mother role seemingly is disrespected in 2017 but, only by the ignorant. Studies have show, children have a much higher IQ with a stay at home mom versus daycare. God forbid, the nightmare stories of nanny cams. Furthermore, a lot of little boys in these daycare facilities are treated pretty poorly by a lot of the women in these environments (Source: Dr. Helen Smith's book Men on Strike), many of the women being divorced, feminists, and or single moms. You're doing great by sacrificing "career woman" choosing to be a free thinker rather than, following the beaten path in society. Good for you. 

 

I actually worked in a day care, a public elementary school, and was an au pair after college. I saw lots and lots of problems in those places. I don't even think a lot of the caretakers wanted to cause harm - I think that actually, a lot of them wanted to do good - but even if they wanted to, the way all of it was set up made it virtually impossible to give the kids the attention, compassion, and instruction that was truly needed. 

 

 

Sorry for not responding to everything else, guys. It was a lot to read and a lot to respond to, and I appreciate all the feedback and interaction. 

[barn]

3 hours ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

You're overthinking it. Just do it (or don't).

Ok?

(Although, I'm adamant that I'm just thinking. )

Nevertheless, I see the energy and conviction. Glad it's working for you.

No worries,

Barnsley

[barn]

2 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Sorry for not responding to everything else, guys. It was a lot to read and a lot to respond to, and I appreciate all the feedback and interaction. 

That's thoughtful and understandable.

Perfectly fine.

Keep your heading and be curious, you are doing something important.

Barnsley

[meetjoeblack]

22 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I actually worked in a day care, a public elementary school, and was an au pair after college. I saw lots and lots of problems in those places. I don't even think a lot of the caretakers wanted to cause harm - I think that actually, a lot of them wanted to do good - but even if they wanted to, the way all of it was set up made it virtually impossible to give the kids the attention, compassion, and instruction that was truly needed.

Sorry for not responding to everything else, guys. It was a lot to read and a lot to respond to, and I appreciate all the feedback and interaction. 

No problem.

So, one of my mates has a fiance. She works in that field as a ECE (i believe). She was mortified to see what sort of stuff goes on in these environments. She told him that, the children are not allowed to play board games because "its too competitive." I've had quite a few negative experiences in these sorts of environments and the education system from women, single moms, and dislike men as well as little boys. It is messeed up. Another one of my mates, he had a meeting at the school who tried to say his little boy is a problem child. At the meeting, my mate sat with his wife seething as they literally blasted away about his son. The reality being, the education system demonizes little boys and anything that is masculine. The philosophy being, shit down, shut up, and do like the little girls. Helen Smith wrote a book on the matter. She depicted the declining grades for boys have been in decline for the past fifty years. There is no course correction or attempt to mitigate the scenario. Boys and girls learn differently. Sitting still and shutting up is not the the way for little boys to learn. I recall a grade one teacher that made me feel stupid and humiliated me in front of class during math. A real disgusting human being and should never be allowed to teach anybody.

 

With all the above in mind, I am quite happy you intend to home school, and be a stay at home mother. I know society demonizes this important role but, this is an example of your being a free thinker, and giving your children the best start at life. Studies show, the children tend to have a higher IQ with a stay at home parent. Good for you both and your continued journey.

[Spenc]

Sorry if I'm just kind of jumping in with things that were already discussed, but once all the text block quoting started, it got hard on my eyes to try to follow everything so I'm jumping in.............

1.  Have you read the book "Real-Time Relationships" by Stef?  (or "On Truth"?)  If so, have you shared RTR with your husband and discussed it together?

2. I am relistening to older shows and currently just finished 1106, which was a group discussion about striving for total honesty (with the self, primarily.  With others as they can be trusted.)  Now, if you've read Real-Time Relationships, you would understand I am talking about honesty of your feelings in the moment, not 'speaking your mind' in sense of dispensing conclusions at people, which are usually a way of acting out one's emotions instead of honestly expressing them.  That would also include not censoring yourself.  i.e. if you want to say something, but decide to remain silent, you are not practicing RTR, or honesty in the moment.

 

So with that in mind.....what percentage of your time interacting with your husband would you say you are being honest in expressing yourself openly and actively in the moment?  (Or being curious in the achievement of his own honest expression)  What percentage of the time would you say you are being honest with yourself?  i.e. do you catch yourself in an emotion and become curious about it instead of forming conclusions and acting out or suppressing?

P.S. Real-time Relationshis is free adiobook: https://freedomainradio.com/free/

I could also direct you to some podcasts from when it was released that would help you discuss it in depth with your husband and understand the challenges and some techniques or methods to get past them.

[meetjoeblack]

On 12/1/2017 at 1:21 AM, Elizbaeth said:

I need guidance and don't trust any relationship advice from people around me or from the rest of the internet. 

Any tips for how to navigate this territory? 

This is the internet lol FDR is the internet as well. I think being skeptical is great. Also, seeking out those who are living what they preach go a long way. You sound like you are doing great and things are progressing nicely. Good stuff.