Real friendship comes from...

[barn]

Hi there thinkers,

Part of a series. (previous: Willpower comes from...)

 

This is the core(I'd like to discuss) :

Real friendship requires...., because...

and

In order to be in a real friendship it's greatly beneficial...

 

 This is my current approximation(my example):

Real friendship requires_unrellenting dedication to truth_, because_life is short and you wouldn't want to be wasting your (or other's) time, especially not in the form of enabling abuse(a soft form, that is).

and

In order to be in a real friendship it's greatly beneficial_to not be in non-real friendships as much as humanly possible.

Cheers,

Barnsley

 

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P. s. To those who are interested in my thought process behind the topic, here's the long version:

[ I'm a straightforwardly aligned individual. The general rule of thumb for me is, I will speak my mind (except for obvious 'red flags', inappropriate palce/time) with asking for permission to do so. If I had to put my experience with this approach into percentages... (my approximation, rounded assertions IT DOESN'T MEAN it is how everything / everyone operates, thinks... I am trying to give you what I concluded un-filtered. I might be very well wrong.)

- Group 1. as in 90% would deny validity or deflect from the get-go (mostly with rationalisations, no curiosity of my meaning to clarify, understand whatsoever, sea of immediate 'red-flags')

- Group 2/a. as in 5% would respond neutrally (maybe ask 1 or 2 questions back, but usually within a short period of time 'something would come up that was 'obviously' had to be dealt with(, naturally;)) and the conversation would end there and then)

- Group 2/b. as in (of) that 5% remaining, I could hash out my message(confirm same level of understanding) and ask for more from the other person's thought processes , eventually discovering (each of us) something fascinating, useful.

BUT!

- the 90% afterwards steer clear of me

- the first 5% would throttle back to 'loving from the distance'

- the last 5% would be more relaxed and not beat around the bush in the future about things, give an all-knowing smile/nod except for the process of showing intent of wanting to move closer to each other after that 'energising' convo... beats me(well, not really)

- In the end, if I looked back how much real friendships was developed from the 100% = 1-2 after meeting 120-200 people(actual statistics from 789 people I've met regarding this subject within the last 1,5yrs) each and EVERY ONE OF THEM would fade away(forgotten plants, drying out from lack of water) as reciprocity wouldn't be present.

i. e. (they'd ask for my contact, inviting me to social events, agreeing to meet... every time I did, it would fail for lack of following through from the person who was 'supposedly also interested'. I respect people's boundaries, if I feel / detect that I'm too much, I disengage and wait to see if there's a call back... seldom there is.)

My conclusions and why I am not sure how to tackle the question of finding enough deep and meaningful connections:

1. I'm clearly not efficient, lots of room for improvement. {while also} Most people are terrified to speak or hear the truth.

2. You can't 'choose' friends, but you can be chosen and then you get to decide if that's what you want.

3. Reciprocal and deep relationships require virtuous people, staying honest. Virtues require connectedness with the true-self. As people age, so the fog thickens people allow (and around 30ish or having a comfortable looking life:) . The effort to re-evaluate usually comes from emergencies, catastrophic outcomes... if the danger ebbs away, so does most often than not the previous curiosity too... until the next unforeseen disaster, at which stage the idea of turning the tide is even more disheartening (seemingly, understandably).

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Edited December 11, 2017 by barn
normalised it

[RichardY]

Real Friendship requires trust and kindness, because without trust there can be no reciprocity and without kindness no mutual support.

and

In order to be in a real friendship it is greatly beneficial to be virtous. As this means you have an excess to give to others.

[barn]

Hi @RichardY

Thanks.

I'm certain that's not a bad approach.

I know you wrote (under beneficial) about virtue, but figured I'd clarify with you if that's OK.

In my mind that's #1 priority/requisite, rather than the beneficial.

Would you agree that without full dedication to the truth (meaning: each person, bringing their true-selves to the relationship, even if it supposes direct vulnerability)...Trust and kindness are no longer. I mean, real manifestation of those. Is that right?!

Also, did you mean by saying virtuous people generate excess, as in 'lean to/do charitable acts'?... I am not sure if I'm going the right direction here... surely, you'll dispell my fog, here.

Barnsley

[RichardY]

@barn I think the distinction between virtue and honesty, would be a bit like comparing a spouse and a friend. With a friend you might split the costs of meals when going on a night out, talk about various issues. However with a spouse, both partners should ideally give (be virtuous) as much as possible to the relationship. Virtue is not an infinite resource.  

In regards to trust vs truth. There should be limits between friends. (for the simple fact ones time is limited to think about things) In regards to pursuing truth, maybe a preist or a therapist might help, or they might not... I think in the later case you are looking more for impartiality. Bringing your true-self to all relationships apart from the closest, maybe highly inappropriate, the question therefore for general socializing, what persona might you present to be able to interact more deeply perhaps?

 

[barn]

7 hours ago, RichardY said:

comparing a spouse and a friend.

The major difference I see (and live) is whether romantically being involved or not. 

But yes, sharing differently between participants is also the case as most of the time you'll only touch and go subjects the other is less inclined (your spouse might not be into 'light disfraction properties of silicium' or scifi books, so you'll discuss it better with an appropriate friend/acquaintance).

Though, I don't think (true) honesty is possible without virtue... exceptions, caveats in place.

I always have the same option to share(no should, ought to) the cost of a meal or decline in both relationships. Naturally, consequences will follow but my main point isn't that.

In a virtuous relationship, you wouldn't want to be less than the maximum you can share at any given time, nor would you feel comfortable seeing it in the other. Furthermore if you feel you should share but can't, the partner/friend would be also motivated to help you find your way back to the state of just doing what you want without any fear of the repercussions. Actually I normally tell my friends, like : "I'm sorry, I have a problem with this I'd like to discuss." (Again, as a caveat. If what someone did was a unintentional mistake, obviously they should be told of it, after which if they're virtuous it won't happen again.)

ie.(practical example) - No reciprocity for spouse.-> Spouse notices or you say so. - >Spouse accepts but wants to know if he/she could do anything that would make you want to show reciprocity yourself, independently. ->Negotiation/support, both always open to new solutions until right. = Sharing again. = This experience actually enables even more sharing and wanting to share. = stronger, deeper connection.

7 hours ago, RichardY said:

In regards to trust vs truth. There should be limits between friends.

Well, given the participants level of honesty sort of confines the extension of trust directly.

If I see someone isn't comfortable sharing their mind, I immediately question(conclude) the lack of sufficient trust. Which is fine, but naturally excludes (then) the existence of deep connection.

I have seen many friends not coming forth with their real opinions (true-self) out of fear for the negative effect it might have on the relationship.

I actually want my best friend to always say what he/she thinks and not worry about my reception. And please note, I'm not, by all means I'm NO saying people should be acting as dicks. Obviously, timing, explanation, demonstrable levels of empathy and support are intrinsic elements of such communications. If people choose their friends accordingly, no one should worry about beating around the bush or exploitation. It doesn't happen. Never.

Real friends and real enemies are the only groups of people who will tell us things that are the closest approximations of our real interaction with the environment (though from opposite sides of the same coin).

Finally, what do mean when you say virtue isn't an indefinite resource? I was trying to come up with approximations but it's too general for me. (I know you were mentioning it within spouse&friends dynamic)

[RichardY]

@barn "What is a friend? A single soul dwelling in two bodies." - Aristotle.

If you don't get the basics right imho Trust & Kindness. You can forget about virtue.

Also thought the idea of sacrifice, and the distinction between(as pointed out by J.Peterson); Your future self and other people being one in the same, as opposed to Ayn Rand's virtue of selfishness. (In "An Antidote to Chaos" Youtube)  As being the correct way of looking at the potential for virtue. It would also be concordant with the Tao Te Ching.

I said that virtue is not an infinite resource, not indefinite.

Matthew 8
43And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, 44Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched. 45And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 46And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me. 47And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately. 48And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace

Tao Te Ching
Chapter Thirty-eight 
A man of superior virtue is not conscious of being virtuous, hence is truly virtuous. 
A man of inferior virtue performs for the purpose of virtue, hence he is not virtuous. 
A man of superior virtue acts without action, and performs with his true nature. 
A man of inferior virtue acts with intentional effort. 
A man of superior kindness acts a natural act. 
A man of superior justice acts with righteousness and feelings for others. 
A man of superior etiquette acts according to his true self, hence no one responds to him by 
moving away. 
There, when Tai is lost, there is Te (virtue). 
When Te is lost, there is humanity. 
When humanity is lost, there is justice. 
When justice is lost, there is etiquette. 
Etiquette becomes prevalent when people fail to be sincere and honest. 
Hence, chaos begins. 
A person of knowledge and self-opinion will be hindered from the enlightenment of Tao. 
Thus, this is the beginning of ignorance! 
Therefore, one who cultivates himself with Tao, 
Embraces the original nature and indulges not in sensual nature. 
He abides by the fundamental Oneness and indulges not in sensory pleasures. 
Thus, abandon those desires and abide by this true essence of Tao.     

[barn]

@RichardY

3 hours ago, RichardY said:

If you don't get the basics right imho Trust & Kindness. You can forget about virtue.

True. If someone doesn't manifest curiosity that too excludes virtue.

I'm not able to see what your abstractions are about, they're simply over my head. Maybe you did answer all, some, any of my questions... I just couldn't figure out their meaning. Would you like to use your own words instead and say their meanings in plain English?

Barnsley

[RichardY]

3 hours ago, barn said:

@RichardY

True. If someone doesn't manifest curiosity that too excludes virtue.

I would go further and say curiosity is a "Natural Act" that is part of kindness.

3 hours ago, barn said:

@RichardY

I'm not able to see what your abstractions are about, they're simply over my head. Maybe you did answer all, some, any of my questions... I just couldn't figure out their meaning. Would you like to use your own words instead and say their meanings in plain English?

Barnsley

Trust and Comfort: Yeah trust and comfort seem to be related. Comfort rots the soul, it isn't something I have  thought through well enough. On some intuitive abstract level I understand. Perhaps you have some ideas?

Virtue as a finite resource: Opportunity cost, there is always something else a person could be doing and where there is perhaps healing to be done, only so much can be done. Then only when a person has the basics covered in their own self knowledge. (I think in someways by knowing yourself you deconstruct, but expand your scope). 

[barn]

Thank you @RichardY, that's exactly what I had asked for. I need to re-read the flow...

but you made me bog down with

24 minutes ago, RichardY said:

I would go further and say curiosity is a "Natural Act" that is part of kindness.

because I don't know if curiosity is a manifestation of kindness or the other way around. I don't think it's part of, it must be since scientific curio... later. Not the current topic. (bookmarked it)

33 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Trust and Comfort: Yeah trust and comfort seem to be related. Comfort rots the soul, it isn't something I have  thought through well enough. On some intuitive abstract level I understand. Perhaps you have some ideas?

I went through the whole flow but couldn't find any other mentions of comfort. I'd prefer some leveling if you don't mind.

A. Were you referring to it as a noun, synonymous to : convenience, cosiness? (ie. being in a bubble, protection)

B. Rather a verb, as in: mitigate, soften? (having 'cared for', looked after)

I got the direction of the questions given the 'soul rotting' property you'd put forward.

49 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Virtue as a finite resource: Opportunity cost, there is always something else a person could be doing and where there is perhaps healing to be done, only so much can be done. Then only when a person has the basics covered in their own self knowledge. (I think in someways by knowing yourself you deconstruct, but expand your scope). 

Yes, you're certainly right about the opportunity cost and the value of boundaries / self-knowledge correlation (The vase, the boundary...) .

Probably it's me who went astray previously but I had thought you were implying that virtues could run out in a real friendship, that they were finite.

I don't think we always act with virtues in a friendship, nor that we have an equal amount of opportunities for acting virtuously over time (consequences, stacking, op. cost as you'd mentioned). We always have the opportunity to choose to act virtuously, even if the effect of it won't be as strong, say if we had always acted virtuously.

Similarly, I do think that 'a well maintained car is much more likely to keep going still, after the 10th day of grueling safari ride'.

The only problem is that we all know when we are sought after because of some other gains rather than for being virtuous. It's a nasty feeling, I could never stand a friend reporting it to me having experienced our relationship as such.

True friendships don't allow for much 'gaps between the visits to the mechanic' , or that the dynamics (the way in which we conduct ourselves) deviate greatly. That's why my emphasis on truth. No lies to remember, easier to negotiate and enable 'friendly dick-punches'.

 

[RichardY]

@barn

Kindness: Someone unkind is not curious. If they were curious, they'd empathise more with a person. Curiosity is a manifestation of kindness. Science (To Know) and Con-science (With Knowing). In order for someone to be kind, they have to be at peace or calm.

Trust: Comfort, to transcend comfort, the ability perhaps to go without. A person maybe comfortable or uncomfortable(dualistic), but they may also transcend the concept. Referencing the passages that I included.

"Be of Good Comfort". (Be at ease, at peace). In which case comfort in a positive sense (good comfort; ie the overcoming of comfort, mitigating, B)

A person of knowledge and self-opinion will be hindered from the enlightenment of Tao. (Tao; The Way, but imho could also mean "Trust", "In God we Trust")
Thus, this is the beginning of ignorance! 
Therefore, one who cultivates himself with Tao, 
Embraces the original nature and indulges not in sensual nature. (A form of comfort) 
He abides by the fundamental Oneness and indulges not in sensory pleasures. (Dualistic way of looking at the world)
Thus, abandon those desires and abide by this true essence of Tao. 

Attachment to worldly desires, I need various things, often addictive things (though not always) for the sake of... (Comfort in a poor, but needful sense, A)

Virtue: What does it mean to choose virtue?

[barn]

Hi @RichardY

Again it seems like you are going into many different branches and I can't follow, nor see the connections to what I had responded to you but just vaguely.

It is annoying me, but I'm not angry just inconvenienced.

I think I'll pass for now.

Take it easy,

Barnsley