Apprenticeships in schooling?

[Elizbaeth]

I have been thinking a lot lately about teaching my sons a trade when they’re young. I’m thinking that it would be a good way for them to have a practical fall-back skill, and if I am able to “apprentice” them out to a trade master, then it would give them another male role model. 

Plus, I kinda want to avoid teaching in a way that is more or less the same as regular public schools. I think there are tons - endless, really - of fun things I can do with them that are fun and exciting and stimulating, but I think, for a good future, the basics need to be 1) how to be a complete man who rules himself, 2) how to think and how to find information, and 3) how to provide for himself. 

Any homeschooling parents doing this? I would be interested to hear thoughts or opinions!

Edited December 7, 2017 by Elizbaeth
Title was too long and rambling

[Spladam]

I'm not a parent, but I have done some work experience during school and the experience was incredibly valuable. It was set-up similar to an apprenticeship except I wasn't paid for the work. It taught me great skills and your idea to get your kids into an apprenticeship is probably a great idea based upon my own experience.

What apprenticeships do you have in mind? Some may be more valuable than others, notably carpentry, plumbing, or electrician apprenticeships opposed to book keeping or sign-making.

Also, computer skills are becoming more important than ever which is something you might like to consider.

But again, I'm not a parent so I have little experience in raising children and understanding what may be best for them, but please let me know what you think.

[barn]

Hi @Elizbaeth

May I ask

a.) how are you going to 'vet' the place? What are your criterias for that?

b.) How will you 'sell' / introduce the idea to your sons? Are you prepared to negotiate(peacefully with reason & evidence) if necessary?

c.) Do you have any activity that you yourself used to (I can imagine, as of now still too little time for yourself..), you will actively pursue and can serve as a good example of learning skills?

d.) Have you read up on the different learning styles and their characteristics?

Barnsley

 

 

[barn]

5 hours ago, Spladam said:

but I have done some work experience during school and the experience was incredibly valuable. It was set-up similar to an apprenticeship except I wasn't paid for the work.

Hi there,

Did you get to choose or was it a requirement?

[Siegfried von Walheim]

Also not a parent, but I do have some ideas that may or may nor work out in practice. 

1: Until they're teenagers I think you should mainly focus on teaching ethics, philosophy, and help them build character by finding them some kind of physically exhaustive sport they can compete/team-up in. For example if both of your sons are soccer players they'll get plenty of exercise, a very real example of the benefit of teamwork as well as the greatness of individual initiative and of course the great feeling of both winning at something hard and making a glorious comeback after an epic fail. I strongly recommend not trying to manage their or their peers playing of sports (except for while they are in their single digits of course and in general to make sure no pedophiles, abuse victims, etc. are around to corrupt them) so that they can learn on their own who they want to associate with (of course this'll be influenced by what you taught them in ethics and about people) and who/how they should ostracize/avoid.

2: Once they are teenagers, I strongly recommend doing what you're thinking and having them try a bunch of different things until they find themselves a passion they want to stick to. Especially since true and utter boredom can only be experienced in public schools now days. In my case I started my path of becoming a novelist as a middle schooler bored to tears with his classes (I was the kid who finished work in 10-15 minutes then had a half-hour + of time to do nothing but ponder why the *expletive* I am stuck here doing nothing when I could be doing anything else) and was prompted to read a book by an apathetic teacher. Well I wasn't doing that (didn't have any books and the ones available were cliche and boring) so I decided to write a book instead and fell in love with how much power and creative freedom I had with my writing in empty notebooks.

Eventually I started sharing with classmates and became optimistic when I found out that I was apparently really good at it and eventually decided to make it a career. When I first had access to the internet at home (or more precisely a computer without the internet) the first thing I did was open up Office and start re-writing my biggest and most favorite series of spiral-notebook-written stories and over the years refined as I wrote and learned beyond the Communist/Asian/video-game bubble around me (which was the original basis of my books).

Your children might discover a talent and a passion through boredom, as well as by actual practice. 

At the same time I think you should, while offering, let them choose what they want to do so they can make a personal investment in it. After all if you have a daughter and make her take ballet then she's going to hate it and if she doesn't hate it she'll get used to having to be forced to do things she doesn't want to that may or may not be good for her. Instead I suggest letting your boys (and perhaps future daughters) have access to a bunch of things and see what they individually take interest in and then help them pursue it--especially if it becomes a marketable passion. You never know if your child is the next Beethoven, Shakespeare, Napoleon, or what-have-you, therefore you should definitely provide them an environment to explore in without micro-managing it (as micro-managing leads to dependency on outside authority to tell them what to do--this is something I learned the hard way on the receiving end of a helicopter mom-- and poor peer-to-peer social skills.)

[Spladam]

Just now, barn said:

Did you get to choose or was it a requirement?

G'day Barnsley,

Yeah, I was allowed to decide for myself. It wasn't really required that I do one, but it was highly recommended. That being said, I didn't go through public schooling which does have an influence on the schools attitude towards apprenticeships / work experience.

[barn]

7 hours ago, Spladam said:

G'day Barnsley,

Yeah, I was allowed to decide for myself. It wasn't really required that I do one, but it was highly recommended. That being said, I didn't go through public schooling which does have an influence on the schools attitude towards apprenticeships / work experience.

Haha... You a'right, fella!

(I always find the way you greet so upbeat... giggles, respectfully)

I think all of those are important distinctions from the standpoints of the quality/weight of the experience and your learning to continously making better decisions (if you are responsible, which I suspect you are).

Thanks for responding to that.

One last thing.

What would you say, how much weight the makeup of the people carry when it comes to any apprenticeship experience and if apprenticeships should be chosen regarding personal attributes (strength/weaknesses) or current/projected economic value TO ONESELF?

< i.e. - Working amongst highly industrious people/not but the skill is it's own value - choosing something that you have had an inkling/not but you get to improve 5% in the end - online brand management is and at a rise/people will continue to live in houses, the good tradesman will always have clients >

I'm definitely going to start learning a trade physically too (e.g. - solar/heat collector installation, electric bike repair... etc.). Currently reading up on my own, looking for a cheap entry opportunity btw. I should perhaps create a thread soon about it.

Barnsley

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

Teaching them to work with their hands, work with tools, and deal with danger from a young age is a VERY good idea. I wish my dad had pushed it more, but he taught me how to use a knife and a lighter at 4 and taught me how to shoot at 5. When it comes to sharp objects and burning things today, I'm extremely comfortable working with the proper tools and have very little fear about them. My dad was a welder and I wish he had had me weld things or even teach me how to build awning frames and wrought iron work (which is what he did).

The hardest working guy I ever met told me he was working for his dad installing floors at 11. By himself. His dad would let him do the whole thing on his own and the customers would always be impressed.

I think the best advice I heard regarding this was from John Taylor Gatto: let your kids do the actual work instead of playing and pretending to do the work. Get them a real shovel instead of a toy shovel. Get them real wood working tools. Real cooking gear. You have to teach them to be safe (my dad did. I had a pocket knife when I was 4), and they may hurt themselves a few times in the process, but getting them exposed to dangerous activities at a young age is VERY important to them learning how to deal with the real world.

Have you thought about carpentry? Or even finding a blacksmith (yes they still exist)?

[Elizbaeth]

On 12/7/2017 at 12:25 PM, barn said:

May I ask

a.) how are you going to 'vet' the place? What are your criterias for that?

b.) How will you 'sell' / introduce the idea to your sons? Are you prepared to negotiate(peacefully with reason & evidence) if necessary?

c.) Do you have any activity that you yourself used to (I can imagine, as of now still too little time for yourself..), you will actively pursue and can serve as a good example of learning skills?

d.) Have you read up on the different learning styles and their characteristics?

Thank you for your questions! They are always so thoughtful! Sorry for the long delay - life and holidays leave me little time to internet. 

 

a) This is actually what I have the most trouble with. I am hoping that, if an apprenticeship works out, the trade master or teacher will act as a second father-type figure or mentor. I want my boys to have a variety of "flavors" of good men around them, and I want them to be able to see what's important and universal in manhood (character, beliefs) and what is more individual (some men are poets and some are athletes). However, for me to vet possible mentors, I would have to already know more or less which direction they would be heading. I haven't figured out how I can suss out the situation before I'm actually there. 

b) I have no intention of shoving this down their throats. I do, however, think that most little boys tend to be happier if they are physically involved with something, and tend to learn better if they have a reason for learning. 

c) I am pretty much doing what I want to do. My interests in life have been basically geared towards this. I wanted to teach and began classes for it, and dropped out because I hated so much of what I saw. I really am so excited for them to get older so that I can help show them the world. I really really really just can't wait. I am even debating on having more kids, which is saying a lot, because I loathed pregnancy, but to get a baby one must endure months of sickness and ugliness and terrible heartburn. I may dip back into my personal hobbies, or much later down the road try to figure out a larger, more universal solution for education, but I think that my energy can only handle my family at the moment.

d) I have read up on learning styles. It's quite interesting, and I can already see how my sons are different, and my youngest is just 5 mounts old. It starts that early. It's crazy. 

14 hours ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

I think the best advice I heard regarding this was from John Taylor Gatto: let your kids do the actual work instead of playing and pretending to do the work. Get them a real shovel instead of a toy shovel. Get them real wood working tools. Real cooking gear. You have to teach them to be safe (my dad did. I had a pocket knife when I was 4), and they may hurt themselves a few times in the process, but getting them exposed to dangerous activities at a young age is VERY important to them learning how to deal with the real world.

Have you thought about carpentry? Or even finding a blacksmith (yes they still exist)?

I was very much thinking along the lines of carpentry or smithing. 

I think that letting them learn about real danger is very important. My son handles what we throw at him (figuratively, not literally) quite well. He also seems to pay attention to me more when I carefully show him, and then allow him to use, something a little above his level. 

On 12/7/2017 at 10:31 PM, Spladam said:

Yeah, I was allowed to decide for myself. It wasn't really required that I do one, but it was highly recommended. That being said, I didn't go through public schooling which does have an influence on the schools attitude towards apprenticeships / work experience.

Would you mind telling me what you learned, and if you still use it today? Thanks!

 

On 12/7/2017 at 2:35 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

2: Once they are teenagers, I strongly recommend doing what you're thinking and having them try a bunch of different things until they find themselves a passion they want to stick to. Especially since true and utter boredom can only be experienced in public schools now days. In my case I started my path of becoming a novelist as a middle schooler bored to tears with his classes (I was the kid who finished work in 10-15 minutes then had a half-hour + of time to do nothing but ponder why the *expletive* I am stuck here doing nothing when I could be doing anything else) and was prompted to read a book by an apathetic teacher. Well I wasn't doing that (didn't have any books and the ones available were cliche and boring) so I decided to write a book instead and fell in love with how much power and creative freedom I had with my writing in empty notebooks.

Thanks for the feedback! I was actually thinking that, if this were to be an idea we would implement, that it would be good to start it at a much younger age - like 8 or 9. My hope would be that they could be self-sufficient by their teenage years. I think that they would gain a tremendous amount of confidence from this, and that it could be a good, solid, material platform from which they could launch into young adulthood. I do think that school is very boring, and I think that most homeschooling (at least my personal experience of it) is more or less a less socialized, less-strict version of public education. I really want to break the whole mindset that goes along with the 8-hour "work day" of school, while still showing them that work is necessary, good, and valuable. I was thinking that a trade would give them power, and show them how they fit into a larger network of needs, and that if they want more money, more resources, whatever, that they have the skills and means with which to attain them. And, hopefully, while they are gaining success with their trade, they will still be learning other things, but unless they are remarkably stupid, I don't think that I will have to push that on them. I'm fairly smart, and their daddy is super, crazy smart, and most children are naturally curious, so unless I  mess up somehow, I would think that I would just need to expose them to different things and be a bumper-guard against possible curiosity deterrents. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Elizbaeth
I had used all caps and had the first letter of a swear word

[Spladam]

Just now, Elizbaeth said:

Would you mind telling me what you learned, and if you still use it today? Thanks!

Most of the job (terrain surveying) was about problem solving. Also being on your feet in the 40 degree Celsius heat whilst wearing long sleeve jackets, jeans, and steel-cap boots really ingrains self-discipline into one's character. It's also great for the sorts of folk who think they're smarter than everyone else as they learn first-hand how important it is for people to work as a team and not be self-serving. These are things which I learnt and your sons will probably also learn these lessons during their time as apprentices. 

What I learnt specifically from being a terrain surveyor was mostly understanding how important advanced mathematics is, and how to read a map incredibly quickly.

Hope that helps!

[barn]

On 12/09/2017 at 6:25 AM, Elizbaeth said:

Thank you for your questions! They are always so thoughtful! Sorry for the long delay - life and holidays leave me little time to internet. 

You're welcome @Elizbaeth

and I hope (occasionally) me being a bit of a 'shard in the eye' is perceived as my constructive attitude. I would certainly ask myself them first, hence my line of thinking.

I still think and repeat the same. Brave, intelligent woman is the image I have in my mind. (kinda jealous of your sons, looking back im my own history ... ya'know, there's a bit of a longing for a past I never had as a boy growing up, but your children will do. Thanks to you. Good stuff. Before you'd console, don't worry about it, it'd been processed in my past before and all I wanna say with this, it is probably partly responsible for me wanting to help here. Anyways. More power to you and the unity of your family. Rooting for ya' all, no doubt about that.)

Brown colour - Is it just me, or I'm correctly sensing that the topic is largely under your district only (As in, the only person really in charge is you. You make the decisions about the children's education (?). Nothing wrong with it, if the two of you had agreed to deferral of authority to you by virtue of being superior or... similar).

I am assuming this due to not knowing anything about what your 'other half' is thinking. I just don't remember you mentioning it. Have I missed it? Am I mischaracterising by saying there's not an overabundance of 'we believe/agree', 'our idea is... ','I see why my husband would want to...', 'He's been aiming to... to which I said... and then we... ' - frameworks...?

I would be curious as to what your super smart (you claimed, I believe you, zero condescending) 'other half' had contributed. It's 'cos (married life is = siami twins = joined at the hips = 'I see you, you see me) you are a team. A unity.

Ruby - Pertaining (a smidgen) to the first point but gently transitioning into my next point.

If you can't ensure safety, beneficial outcome to the aim you'd set out to reach, shouldn't you go back to the drawing board? (with Bob Ross to soothe your anxious wanting to paint the 'bestest of the best scenery'... nope, forget Bob Ross, there's your husband.)

Get some manly insights? He's a man, he's been once a boy. I'm sure he'll have really, really good insights when connecting with the topic. Work together. Voice your concerns the same as you did starting the stem of the thought, plus verbalise the desired. Having a concept for an ideal scenario helps you navigate better. You told me what you wouldn't do, and I got a glimpse of what you supposed, could be/might a doable path.. nothing solid though, (this is my assertion, I might be wrong but hey!...)

On 12/09/2017 at 6:25 AM, Elizbaeth said:

b) I have no intention of shoving this down their throats. I do, however, think that most little boys tend to be happier if they are physically involved with something, and tend to learn better if they have a reason for learning. 

... why not run that past by your husband? Who knows, what he'd be able to contribute, adding to the plan something you'd missed. (You never know, 'other halves' tend to do that to the pleasant surprise of everyone involved. More often than anticipated.)

Sand - I asked specifically for the knowledge of learning styles because you shouldn't encourage an activity that isn't in harmony with their (each individual set of) traits, naturally. In short, you wouldn't recommend that someone did the same thing you'd struggled with if you wanted them to succeed better than you did. Or at least you would tell them about all your failings, difficulties, so that they might start out 'prepped, smarter'.

i. e.

Kinaesthetic learners strive better with tactile reinforcement, auditorial preferential is towards linguistic/heard word & retention of spoken words and the visually oriented got to see the big picture or else, she/he feels lost... so on, because there's also gradients.

What I'm getting at is, you need to properly identify. Why? For the added benefit of having a structure for your children to utilise, employ in any field. Yeah, any field. You can learn the same but with different approaches.

Children who have an awareness of tools to employ at their disposal when conquering any subject WILL do better than those who innately gifted at one or the other field. Talent isn't really a big deal, really. Even better, industriousness and conscientiousness can make up for many multitudes of 'blessed with' attributes. Mind blowing, eh?!

- -  - - Flowery language ahead - -  - -

I don't think I have to introduce you to the bullsh&t detector kids come with straight from the assembly line.

Therefore I would like to highlight two quotes I feel are good to be heard and fully subscribe myself. (because sooner or later, your sons will see them for themselves, they might even read this comvo for all I know. In which case, hey dudes! How's it going?)

"You need a meal, you eat anything. You love a meal, you'll wait for the BEST. "

and

" Love is our involuntary reaction to virtue, if we are virtuous ourselves."

Barnsley

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by barn
baaad grammar, some housekeeping

[Spladam]

On 12/8/2017 at 7:28 PM, barn said:

What would you say, how much weight the makeup of the people carry when it comes to any apprenticeship experience and if apprenticeships should be chosen regarding personal attributes (strength/weaknesses) or current/projected economic value TO ONESELF?

I think it really depends on the experience they've had before they begin their apprenticeship. The mind set one has when going into an apprenticeship is crucial to success in the apprenticeship. If you have a negative mindset, you will look for the worst in it, and Vice-Versa. 

As for choosing the apprenticeships, both need to be considered. If the apprenticeship is for Elizabeth's sons to learn skills, then it should be in regards to personal attributes (strengths/weaknesses) if it is for education for a future career, then both need to be considered. How far is the apprentice willing to compromise with each factor?

On 12/8/2017 at 7:28 PM, barn said:

Haha... You a'right, fella!

(I always find the way you greet so upbeat... giggles, respectfully)

haha, cheers Barnsley.

On 12/8/2017 at 7:28 PM, barn said:

I'm definitely going to start learning a trade physically too (e.g. - solar/heat collector installation, electric bike repair... etc.). Currently reading up on my own, looking for a cheap entry opportunity btw. I should perhaps create a thread soon about it.

Well if you do, I'll give you my two-cents, and hopefully it will help.

[barn]

Yo, @Spladam

/I did my best to condense, yet not lose meaning. Please enjoy reading, looking forward to hearing from you./

1 hour ago, Spladam said:

On 12/08/2017 at 12:28 PM, barn said:

What would you say, how much weight the makeup of the people carry (1) when it comes to any apprenticeship experience and if apprenticeships should be chosen regarding personal attributes (2) (strength/weaknesses) or current/projected economic value (3) TO ONESELF?

I think it really depends on the experience they've had before they begin their apprenticeship. The mind set one has when going into an apprenticeship is crucial to success in the apprenticeship. If you have a negative mindset, you will look for the worst in it, and Vice-Versa. 

As for choosing the apprenticeships, both need to be considered. If the apprenticeship is for Elizabeth's sons to learn skills, then it should be in regards to personal attributes (strengths/weaknesses) if it is for education for a future career, then both need to be considered. How far is the apprentice willing to compromise with each factor?

It's really good that you asked, I can see how my wording is less than 'most efficient'.

I'm enjoying the 'convo' with you. Really, I wish nothing less for you, surely let me know if you need me to adjust or have a comment to share... really.

Allow me to clarify (1,2,3) first and then reply to what you wrote afterwards. (My intention is to be succinct, sorry if I repeat concepts you already are conscious of, seemed like it was a necessary thing to do.).

All the points are regarding best suitability, how ONESELF's best integration is chosen by HIM/HER, in order to get what's desired, harmonious with HIS/HER interests. I know they are two boys, but this is a universal for everyone. I know their mom is trying to help but I wanna' make sure she only does that, plus allow for mistakes. (and I'm not saying she isn't at all. That's why I am asking questions, being curious to her.)

(Others choosing for us has nothing to do with taking responsibility/free will. = there's no agency of the self, unless we defer to someone (preferably because they have provable authority) but that's a conscious choice already, we choose to not choose but let others do it for us.)

That's why I wanted to establish if she was ready to negotiate without coercion.

That's why I wanted to establish you yourself subscribed to your apprenticeship, back in the day.

That's why I inquired about how the 'vetting' is formulated in her mind.

(i. e. - The goal is...(X) Therefore the opposite(-X) or unrelated(Y) isn't appropriate for the goal itself. Either the goal or the approach should be reviewed as in -> Am I still certain/should I change any of these? = X,- X,Y).

because

One chooses the 'price'(what effort is required, direct consequences encountered) to pay, and the 'allocation of opportunity cost' (while you choose one thing, you can't do another. If you enroll in a course and it's booring, you miss out on an interesting one, better use the opportunity more economically the next time) with the natural (and great) requirement of taking responsibility for choosing. Your success is yours only if you do that.

Clarification (1) of 3 - 'makeup of people there'

- the importance of being in an environment of dedicated, helpful, responsible, industrious people who are pro-actively doing stuff, radiating enthusiasm. VS. none or little of those

Clarification (2) of 3 - 'personal attributes'

- the importance of motoric skills, verbal affinity, abstract thinking capabilities, + big 5 personality assessment VS. not taking stock and essentially going in 'blind'.

Clarification (3) of 3 - 'curr./proj. economic value'

- the importance of assessing through research, interviews with actual professionals the need for & ROI (return on investment), the 'niche' nature of any activity/skill now & in the probable future VS. enrolling in something that has already started to get automatised and will become sooner rather than later a 'thing that's also done by robots/holds little and decreasing economic value already.'

I had posted a thread here about automation. Very sobering reminder and a great example of how free market IS making the world a better place.

I hope that explains very well my motives, approach, intentions.

- - - - now to your constructive additions - - - -

1. (A or B) What would you prefer and why?

2. (A or B) If it turns out that the route wasn't good, which could net you more and better quality information in order to make better decisions in the future? Why?

[A.] That a career path had been laid down for you that you didn't partake really in choosing/consciously gave up the choice (even no action IS a form of action)?

or

[B.] That you laid down your own career path, doing the best you could in choosing and striving for success while in pursuit. (You'd formulated prior the answers to What?- Why?- How's that a benefit?- questions.)

 

Wabalabadubdub?

See 'ya,

Barnsley

[Spladam]

Just now, barn said:

Clarification (1) of 3 - 'makeup of people there'

- the importance of being in an environment of dedicated, helpful, responsible, industrious people who are pro-actively doing stuff, radiating enthusiasm. VS. none or little of those

Clarification (2) of 3 - 'personal attributes'

- the importance of motoric skills, verbal affinity, abstract thinking capabilities, + big 5 personality assessment VS. not taking stock and essentially going in 'blind'.

Clarification (3) of 3 - 'curr./proj. economic value'

- the importance of assessing through research, interviews with actual professionals the need for & ROI (return on investment), the 'niche' nature of any activity/skill now & in the probable future VS. enrolling in something that has already started to get automatised and will become sooner rather than later a 'thing that's also done by robots/holds little and decreasing economic value already.'

Oh righto, I see what you're getting at now. 

The answers are pretty obvious then. For the first one, the importance of being in that environment is that you'll learn from the mistakes of others because they will be going out of their way to make sure you (the apprentice) don't make those mistakes. Also having that mindset yourself is rather beneficial and will get you through the tough times at your job. If the folk you work with are not dedicated, helpful, etc... then chances are that you (the apprentice) will end up learning how to do the trade to a just or just below standard job. 

For the second one, the importance of having those skills beforehand is basically nil. Every master should have those skills, if not then find another master. These are the skills the apprentice will learn during their time.

As for the economic value, this only depends on whether or not her sons are going to be using the trade qualification for work and not just to learn part of how to be a man. If they do use it for a job in the future then undoubtedly they will need to find a trade which is unlikely to be fully replaced by robots in the near future (eg: a robotics technician apprenticeship).

Anyway, I hope I answered it properly this time, haha, and thanks for clarifying too.

 

Cheers,

Spladam.

[barn]

Sure, bud. Those are (I think too) good observations.

No, you always answered correctly. You spoke your mind, that's always correct. I wasn't saying anything other than clarifying stuff... y'know to be on the same wavelength, have a common-ish ground.

I recommend you have a look at the big 5 personality assessment by Jordan B Peterson

and

a generic test on learning styles

if you are interested in more details regarding the second point.

Have a good one @Spladam,

Barnsley

[Spladam]

Just now, barn said:

Have a good one @Spladam,

Barnsley

Cheers Barnsley, I'll check out those links soon, and have a good one too mate.

[Elizbaeth]

On 12/9/2017 at 9:10 AM, barn said:

et some manly insights? He's a man, he's been once a boy. I'm sure he'll have really, really good insights when connecting with the topic. Work together. Voice your concerns the same as you did starting the stem of the thought, plus verbalise the desired. Having a concept for an ideal scenario helps you navigate better. You told me what you wouldn't do, and I got a glimpse of what you supposed, could be/might a doable path.. nothing solid though, (this is my assertion, I might be wrong but hey!...)

Lol my husband and I talk about this all the time. However it is my pet dream, and he kinda lets me take the reigns. He will become much more involved once they grow into an age where they can do a lot more. 

 

By by the way, what do you think of unschooling? I tend to think that kids will be curious and energetic and learn of their own will, but a part of me is skeptical of relinquishing control so totally. 

[barn]

Good morning/evening @Elizbaeth

 

5 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Lol my husband and I talk about this all the time. However it is my pet dream, and he kinda lets me take the reigns. He will become much more involved once they grow into an age where they can do a lot more. 

I see. Sounds like deferral-ish, sort of. I wasn't sure, thanks for adding some info. Still it's my own view, the way I think: to share and do together what constitutes to a strong foundation for your parenting so that at later ages your kids will be naturally just wanting to listen to your advice both. Them being well-equipped to further develop critical thinking, supplemented with gentle guidance from virtuous parents. A parent who've raised their children with reason&evidence, negotiation will be trusted indefinitely more by their children, having an easier time 'getting through' to them, protecting them.

(Again it's only my amateur assessment, but perhaps to me the things you've been exploring in the other thread are the core importance, pre-requisites to a two parents household. It's because, that's where you lay your own foundation first in order to demonstrate your and your relationships virtues. Remember when I mentioned the 'bullsh&t radar' kids come with? They are reeeally good observers and WILL copy any behaviour they perceive to be 'working'.)

As a glimpse into an important aspect :

The season and all, peaceful parenting and you guys being religious... have you listened to 3525,second caller? (a taster for one of the big questions you may encounter)

5 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

By by the way, what do you think of unschooling? I tend to think that kids will be curious and energetic and learn of their own will, but a part of me is skeptical of relinquishing control so totally. 

Two things here. The first is that not doing something doesn't mean it's better already. Obviously, 'central brainwashing' should be replaced with true learning APPROPRIATELY GRADED TO AGE. Homeschooling is much more efficient simply because the focused attention(instead of being lost in a large class) and applied techniques(most appropriate approach regarding individual learning styles) netting a far higher retention rate/autonomy. If it's executed well, your kids will naturally start searching more of what they are good at. VERY IMPORTANTLY, certain mindsets ought to be, started to be developed as EARLY AS POSSIBLE.

- responsibility (choices have consequences, mirroring it as parents, keeping your word/promises)

- organisation skills (planning, follow through, feedback - as time goes on, gradually better decisions, industriousness)

- self-knowledge (Who am I, why do I do things, why I think it's the best - again, as a parent showing a good example, your kids will use that template. Be aware of your own flaws for their sake too.)

I'm writing these because at school kids don't learn about time-management, critical thinking, self-awareness, free market principles. However in life it's all that distinguishes someone successful/a mindful individual from a 'drone', a 'leaf carried by the winds'.

The second half of my 'chirping' about homeschooling is the plethora of resources out there. You'd want to be prepared so read up, collect information, vet different approaches, speak with other parents with similar backgrounds. Do your homework ahead of time.

Relinquishing control IS when you let others to indoctrinate your kids with what serves them and not your children. What traits/skills will they benefit from the most when they reach the age to start 'conquering the world'? Furthermore I don't think the word is suitable ('relinqu.. '). That's passive. Of course you'd want to make sure they are in the best possible scenario regarding their preparation for life.

Though, like I said earlier... Your energy level and efficiency will greatly depend on the dynamics you formulate in your marriage. I think that's the pre-requisite to anything else parents do.

Barnsley