If a UPB MASTER philosopher had taught at the 'Jedi' academy...

[barn]

Hi thinkers and alike,

(some housekeeping first)

Disclaimer :

From here, there'll be spoilers. So continue reading at your own discretion.

I wouldn't dare to take 'pot shots' at UPB or the well intended (unless I had good arguments against, which I don't = I use it, it works... not an argument, though.) , simply because I hold them dear to me, plus have a great respect for the virtuous. (If I do, please call me out on it.)

This is a video Stefan Molyneux did on the Force Awakens

and another,

Harry Potter, Star Wars and the Violent Fantasies of Crushed Souls

and about Carrie Fisher..

RIP Carrie Fisher | Star Wars Princess Leia

my aim here:

Is to discourage the uninitiated from developing a liking to Star Wa... nope, that's not it lemme' try once again..

Is to shine a light(no pun intended) on the 'bright/good side' suggesting that certainly it wasn't so bright, while also reminding people/having a discussion about the sophistry that's been going on in each&all movies (at times), caveats that will rewrite entire narratives but are rooted in philosophy.

 

- - - - (now to the 'meat of the matter')

If a MASTER UPB philosopher had taught at the Central Jedi Academy, there wouldn't have been any problem teaching the young Anakin Skywalker (mind-fiddly: Jesus-ish connotations regarding his birth?! Eh?!) to fully embrace the 'suck', learning to properly allocate responsibility/process emotions and he wouldn't have wanted to join the dark side. E-veR. No way.

Barnsley

[ofd]

Quote

If a MASTER UPB philosopher had taught at the Central Jedi Academy, there wouldn't have been any problem teaching the young Anakin

How does that follow? It is one thing to have an ethical theory and to advocate it and another to actually follow it and apply it to your everyday life. It would be an interesting research to have a look at different ethical theories and to see to what extent their proponents follow through on them.

[barn]

2 hours ago, ofd said:

How does that follow? It is one thing to have an ethical theory and to advocate it and another to actually follow it and apply it to your everyday life. It would be an interesting research to have a look at different ethical theories and to see to what extent their proponents follow through on them.

I'm not sure. (Do you wish me to chime in? Although you quoted my words, it seems rather neutral the way it's appearing. Almost as if you wanted to ask me directly but not so much. Maybe I'm wrong in my assertion about that.)

You can disregard my clarification if you weren't interested in the first place. (I'm mostly gearing it towards to those who might have a similar 'hiccup' or haven't read UPB, haven't seen all the movies... etc.)

One of the main & necessary foundation (how I internalised it) of UPB is free will.

Another (here) relevant is you'd not want to be instrumental in more tragedy in someone's life who you know is on a path to self-destruction because you confirmed it with reason & evidence. (It's against UPB)

I think it is fair to say that Anakin was choosing the dark path several times, out of his free will...(some caveats like slavery and having been born with the force can be set aside easily, none of those came from his free choice)

In my mind (if you add up all the above + a UPB MASTER isn't gonna allow for the detrimental of his/her own values due to maintaining integrity) Anakin would have been sent away with his 'lunchbox' and a great reminder of the intrinsic values of 'being a Jedi' after a great chat with Yoda or someone equally perceptive. He would have been gently and honestly told, why he wasn't ready (yet) to be equipped with more responsibility and probably offered free counseling in one of the pleasant wings of the academy, near a soothing lake or park. But straight up refused. Filtered out, rejected with reason & evidence. UPB stuff really.

Have you read the book if I may inquire?

Barnsley

[ofd]

Quote

Have you read the book if I may inquire?

I have and I have seen the movie in question a long time ago, so I can't judge the validity of your reasoning when it comes to the Jedi-academy or possible implications of teaching UPB there

Having read Haidt, I am wondering if ethical reasoning is applied after the fact of having come to a moral conclusion, as a sort of rationalisation. So my question is how much are people influenced by ethical theories in what they do and how strong the correlation is.

[RichardY]

The JEDI (The Sith are the opposite)

The Jedi are "selfless." i.e the whole self ownership thing isn't going to apply.
They use Child Soldiers which they indoctrinate.
They censor knowledge of the Darkside.
They murder Sith, because they are Sith.
They grant political favours for donations to their temples.
They reject Absolutes and Freewill.
Support other groups to do the fighting for them.
Virtue signal while doing next to nothing.

Harry Potter

It matters how the story is told. (Aristotle and the concept of Catharsis) See what if Dumbledore was a child molester in conspiracy with the other teachers, that would mean Harry Potter was siding in effect with the bad guys. but was trying to feel good about doing so, a kind of Stockholm Syndrome.

[barn]

4 minutes ago, RichardY said:

The JEDI (The Sith are the opposite)

The Jedi are "selfless." i.e the whole self ownership thing isn't going to apply.
They use Child Soldiers which they indoctrinate.
They censor knowledge of the Darkside.
They murder Sith, because they are Sith.
They grant political favours for donations to their temples.
They reject Absolutes and Freewill.
Support other groups to do the fighting for them.
Virtue signal while doing next to nothing.

Harry Potter

It matters how the story is told. (Aristotle and the concept of Catharsis) See what if Dumbledore was a child molester in conspiracy with the other teachers, that would mean Harry Potter was siding in effect with the bad guys. but was trying to feel good about doing so, a kind of Stockholm Syndrome.

Great pointers. (Star Wars related, the other could be perhaps in another thread if I was asked. Also very good pointers, nevertheless.)

Very interesting.

Thanks,

Barnsley

[barn]

Aaaand a bit more... (hope you don't mind me meddling in your comments, I highlighted my additions for differentiating between what was your original contribution.)

 

10 minutes ago, RichardY said:

The JEDI (The Sith are the opposite) - If I was asked, I'd say that's not true. I'd say they were rather 'grey' than of the pure white if the dark side is the pure black. In many sense, (on the movie screen) the dark side had much more integrity of it's own values and less cognitive biases (supposedly).

The Jedi are "selfless." i.e the whole self ownership thing isn't going to apply. - Sure(kinda'), except Yoda goes into exile due to owning up.

They use Child Soldiers which they indoctrinate. - Yep. No arguing with that.

They censor knowledge of the Darkside. - Very true. That's why a UPB MASTER PHILOSOPHER would have made the bright side undergo an evolution for a 'lighter' shade for sure. Vetting and all, asking the difficult questions... etc.

They murder Sith, because they are Sith. - I'm not sure that's a completed argument. Perhaps not, but definitely what's not within self-defense isn't UPB. i. e. going after to murder when no threat present.

They grant political favours for donations to their temples. - Do they?! I might have missed that.

They reject Absolutes and Freewill. - Sure, to the first part. I'm more hesitant on the second. If someone had asked me, I'd say they do act quite a few times as hypocrites, cherry picking. Other times not so much. But perhaps it's within a 40 chess-move manipulation and only seems they 'aim to protect the weak'. Again, a master class on first principles would have done away with that too.

Support other groups to do the fighting for them. - I'd rather say, although generally agree with you, that they are panicking and grabbing at any and all that keeps them afloat mostly. Not that I agree with said practice but sort of understand it... it's being lame, really. Failure to plan or have strong enough allies coming to the aid due to virtues.

Virtue signal while doing next to nothing. - Oh, yes. Being pompous too at times. Sure, cognitive dissonance 1o1. It's probably lack of self-reflection, maybe (non-existent in reality) the force too has a tendency to supplement vanity.

Great points, thanks again.

Barnsley

[RichardY]

@barn

They reject Absolutes and Freewill: See if they reject absolutes they also reject, the self as an absolute. As you said (40 chess move manipulation) they pick and choose when freewill suits them, not for the 100% responsibility in practice. You have it or you don't pick one.(Only a Sith deals in Absolutes)

They censor knowledge of the Darkside: I guess it depend on what people mean by the Darkside and Lightside. If Lightside = Good, and Darkside = Bad. Then why not go maximum "Lightside."?

They murder Sith, because they are Sith: See Darkside is evil to the JEDI, so to not hunt them to extinction would be a dis-service to life and the Galaxy.

They grant political favours for donations to their temples. They back sides to keep the republic together, while receiving donations, from senate members. I mean where are they getting all of their fancy equipment from? Massive temples, Light Sabres, and Spaceships. Then you have that planet Aldeeran (full of former rich political leeches) that funds terrorism through the "rebellion" and lined their own pockets in the Republic.

 

 

[barn]

Hi @RichardY

I still wish to discuss the main idea about 'If a UPB MASTER PHILOSOPHER had taught at the Jedi academy...' though your proposed topics look reeeeally interesting.

Perhaps I can imagine myself contributing to a thread about your topics but as of yet Not here, not now I'm afraid.

(and I fully understand this thread is filled with many would've, could've, should've - s but hey, I am intrigued by the idea. Probably for a good reason and curious what others have to say about said topic)

What other ramifications do you see a UPB MASTER PHILOSOPHER would have brought to the Jedi, other than my example?

Barnsley

[RichardY]

@barnWhat other ramifications do you see a UPB MASTER PHILOSOPHER would have brought to the Jedi, other than my example?

I think it would be the equivalent as if a "UPB Master" had gone to a Buddhist Zen Monastery. To teach about the self and UPB, when the very core of their religion ultimately rejects the self. Spiritual Nihilism.

In the West. Academies or Academia rely on funding from somewhere, the JEDI Academy or SJW University relies on collective contributions and is based on "Merit"(Who decides?, the SJW/JEDI council). Ultimately though UPB is an extension of Kant's Moral Imperative with a few caveats 1) You don't have to be honest all the time like some Robot, useful for the "authorities". 2) It's extension to taxation. 3)The rejection of "Kant's a Goodwill" and the assertion of reason and evidence as primary. 

Though what would a UPB Master be a Master of? Some logical constructions in his head. The idea being to lead by example. I'm doing well so people will follow me. They might, or they may prefer to try and drag you down to their level, behavioural I.Q wise doesn't matter, Darwinian/Nietzchean Will to Power. So ad-hoc support of Trump(though the most vocal on Youtube imho) and the occasional good deed, but no unity, no positive affirmation of Ethics(which Stefan has said, when it comes down to it, is refraining from actions) or Morality. Follow UPB have personal integrity and people will follow.

I also remember him saying 1) Never start a movement like Obectivism did. 2) Do not name "your" philosophy after yourself. Though given "demographics" any real world action imho is going to go one of 2 paths. Direct democracy and therefore fragmentation into smaller countries even to the city level i.e Sarajavo Or Nightwatchmen state. I remember reading something about Aristotle that it is nearly impossible to be moral or ethical in a thoroughly corrupt society N.Korea as one example, Sweden, Germany, Canada, UK, all on their way.

[barn]

Hi @RichardY

I'm having trouble seeing reciprocity. Maybe I'm missing something.

That's OK.

I still don't think we're approaching common ground and I don't know anything else to ask you.

That's also fine with me.

See you later,

Barnsley