3953 The Immigration Debate | Adam Kokesh and Stefan Molyneux

[jpahmad]

10 hours ago, smarterthanone said:

 

Yes. When did you learn tax was theft? Or was it so obvious that in elementary school you little 4th grade butt was like "Mommy this is stealing don't send me to school!" Also don't forget most people are dumber than you.

Illegal immigrants = children?

[smarterthanone]

12 hours ago, jpahmad said:

Illegal immigrants = children?

Did you know all this on your 18th birthday? I am just saying you assume everyone knows this. If everyone knew this there would be way more libertarian, ancap, etc kind of people around. If you assume everyone knows this, I will have to say you are wrong, almost nobody knows this.

[smarterthanone]

18 hours ago, ofd said:

How is that related to tresspassing?

How is it not?

If the government says "don't step on this land if you came from this side and don't have a piece of paper" they also say "dont light this plant on fire" and "we will allow you to say anything you want, you have our permission it says so here"... what makes one different than the other? Do you accept the government as the all powerful god authority? If not, why one of these but not the others?

[lorry]

Great debate. It was nice to see something a bit more combative. Libertarians BTFO! How will they ever recover? 

[DaveR]

Probably the worst guest you've had on in a long time. He starts losing the debate on immigration...suddenly turns to cryptos/bitcoin. Does similar time and time again. 

Maybe he has the luxury of being a puritanical ideologue. Most of us do not. 

[Sir Exotic]

On 1/14/2018 at 3:51 AM, ofd said:

They tresspassed public land without the consent of the government.

There is no "public land", the government does not have a rightful or just ownership over that land.
If the border is "publicly owned" and I privately own some land in the country itself, can an "illegal immigrant" fly over or go around the border and come onto my private property?

 

[RichardY]

Already in the country. Not that pouring more gasoline on is going to help. "One election away from losing, almost everything".

Millions of Europeans would likely emigrate to the USA, if there was open borders, on the otherhand so would the rest of the world. Massively drive down wages in a short period of time. Oh and by the way, it's possible your towns will smell of shit as the sewage gets overloaded in such a short period of time, which will be the least of your worries. Unless you are well provisioned for, in which case you can virtue signal tp your hearts content, as neighbours and family suffer. Just make sure you have decent security, unlike in the movie, Scarface.  

"Bust a deal" "Face the Wheel".   - GULAG - Mad Max.

[DaveR]

13 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Already in the country. Not that pouring more gasoline on is going to help. "One election away from losing, almost everything".

Millions of Europeans would likely emigrate to the USA, if there was open borders, on the otherhand so would the rest of the world. Massively drive down wages in a short period of time. Oh and by the way, it's possible your towns will smell of shit as the sewage gets overloaded in such a short period of time, which will be the least of your worries. Unless you are well provisioned for, in which case you can virtue signal tp your hearts content, as neighbours and family suffer. Just make sure you have decent security, unlike in the movie, Scarface.  

"Bust a deal" "Face the Wheel".   - GULAG - Mad Max.

 

I wouldnt bet on it. Migration streams are pretty low from Europe to the US. Typically, 2 to 3 times as many Britons emigrate to Australia than the US, its around 8-10,000 a year to the US, 20-30,000 to Australia. 

Generally what keeps British people out of the US is 1) the belief they WILL get shot! and 2) the cost of healthcare and belief they will be left dying outside a hospital due to their being some loophole in their health insurance. 

Those Britons who do emigrate tend to go to Florida or California. The weather is too cost in the rest of the country. 

[DaveR]

On 07/01/2018 at 6:44 AM, smarterthanone said:

I believe in Adam's strategy of localization.

For example, if California wants to have Hillary for president still and bring in refugees, they should be their own country and DO IT.

But in the meantime a wall wouldn't hurt anything.

Yes, I do agree with that part. Instead of "one world order" I'd rather "one world disorder". A world of 7 billion 'sovereign men'

 

However, I think it needs to be done carefully, slowly, incrementally, and as peacefully as possible. Its an aspiration that should be viewed over centuries, not something that should be rushed into in one election cycle 'before the other guy gets in'. I believe only Europeans have sufficiently ditched the tribalism to make such a thing possible. If we simply abolished borders now, I think it would be a bloodbath. However, in 150 years time or so, a possible, even desirable scenario. 

[RichardY]

Yeah I think a lot Britons would choose New Zealand or Australia over the USA being more culurally similar. However, given that there was over 1 million people move from Poland to the UK and origanally "estimated"(by the gov) it was going tp be 10,000. I would bet you'd had at least a million poles, a million brits, a million scadinavians etc.Moving to the USA. 1) English speaking 2)Cheaper housing than the UK. 3)Potentiially higher pay, although disparity is wider in the USA I believe. Healthcare and Guns are more the older diehard socialists.

[RichardY]

53 minutes ago, DaveR said:

Yes, I do agree with that part. Instead of "one world order" I'd rather "one world disorder". A world of 7 billion 'sovereign men'. 

Where are the women? "You like Beyritz yes, you like the south of France?"

 

[DaveR]

14 hours ago, RichardY said:

Yeah I think a lot Britons would choose New Zealand or Australia over the USA being more culurally similar. However, given that there was over 1 million people move from Poland to the UK and origanally "estimated"(by the gov) it was going tp be 10,000. I would bet you'd had at least a million poles, a million brits, a million scadinavians etc.Moving to the USA. 1) English speaking 2)Cheaper housing than the UK. 3)Potentiially higher pay, although disparity is wider in the USA I believe. Healthcare and Guns are more the older diehard socialists.

Hard to say. I would certainly agree housing (and weather) are the two biggest factors when it comes to Brits emigrating. Indeed, the highest net emigration figure for British nationals was 2006 (124,000 left) when both the housing bubble and sterling were at peaks, allowing Brits to sell up, realize a high price, and buy a nicer lifestyle elsewhere. The lowest point was in 1994 when the housing market was at a low and just 16,000 emigrated. Typical net emigration of British nationals is around 60k a year. 

However, the one thing that really irks Brits are property taxes. They'll pay through the nose for fuel and tobacco. (though most just evade taxes on the latter), but get between them and their houses, and they'll get mad. Pretty much the only time the middle class 'rioted' was in the poll taxes riots when property taxation was due to be changed. Indeed, so scared are the government of touching the subject, they havent dared alter the valuation bands since 1993, despite it punishing many areas in the north, where property values havent even doubled since then, and undertaxing areas like London where values have risen 10 fold. The punitive rates of property taxes on, say a £350,000/$500,000 home in much of the US would put a lot of Brits off. 

I think you are correct about the disparity in the US. "Mean" average salaries certainly are higher in the US than the UK, but median, thats debatable and often dependent on precise exchange rates at the time. The median UK worker has had significantly higher wages than their US counterpart over the last ten years, and the opposite has been true at other times. If you are highly skilled, then its probably advantageous. If you are average skill or less, there seems to be no yes or no answer.

The US median personal income for 2016 was somewhere between $27,500 to $29,999. A precise "50th percentile" figure is not given, but I guess it would be a little under $29,000. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States#Income_distribution

The UK median personal income for 2016 was £22,807.20 (ASHE figures) 

At the current 1.39 exchange rate that translates to about $31,700, so a little higher in the UK. Though i would imagine for whites only, the figure is higher in the US.

A caveat is that those figures are all workers, and actual hours worked is not stated. When 'full time' workers only are considered, that reverses, with US workers getting more than UK workers (again, though, full time is not a precise hourly figure, so who knows)

US 2017 4thQ Median full time wages $857 p/w ($44564)

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

UK 2017 1stQ (latest available ASHE figures) Median full time wages £550.4 p/w (£28,620.8) or $39,782.90 @1.39USD/GBP so US is about 10% higher when just full time workers are considered.

For me personally, while I do indeed like the idea of a massive american style "McMansion" I think the associated planning that comes with that (ie having to drive 20 miles to go anywhere or do anything) is intolerable. Australia is probably a happy median between US and UK planning. I like being able to walk to the nearest pubs and stores even though I dont live in a town or city. Such a normal thing seems impossible outside of the oldest, biggest cities in the US.

 

[RichardY]

@DaveR

Not the middle class that rioted. Poll tax was to replace council tax and was done on a per head basis over 18. So, large families living in smaller houses ended up rioting. 

Property in many areas is perhaps 5 times more expensive than 2 decades ago, but obviosuly wages are not 5 times more. Yeah the council tax bands haven't altered much, but the council tax keeps going up. somewhere between 1,500 - 2,000GBP a year my father pays in council tax.

Petrol is expenisve in the UK, only country more expensive is Norway. Though american cars drink more fuel are generally heavier and the distances are usually greater. Still could live in more developed areas and us more fuel efficient vehicles though.

Yeah tend to have bars in the USA, rather than pubs,, and Canada is even more strange with alcohol. Not that I go to the pub. Australia and New Zealand I'm guessing are better for pubs.

[lorry]

On 1/20/2018 at 8:25 PM, RichardY said:

Millions of Europeans would likely emigrate to the USA, if there was open borders

If they did, Europe would have to compete economically. Closing off immigration from the Europe permits economic stagnation.

 

Should God Emperor blesses us with European immigration, the EU is fucking done.

[barn]

On 01/06/2018 at 10:26 PM, barn said:

° To Stefan Molyneux, Dear Sir:

PLEASE GIVE A DEFINITION OF 'FRIEND'

In [Podcast - 4019 - around minute 95]...

Ok. That clears things up.

Fair enough.