Libertarians for Trump? and.. the immigration debate.

[Dylan Lawrence Moore]

On 1/26/2018 at 3:43 PM, Mishi2 said:

1. I don't think the math is clear on which country is freer than the other, which is why it is worthy of discussion. According to my estimation, it's either Switzerland or New Zealand that is the freest. I would say the Vatican is the freest, but I understand why one would object.
The obsession with liberty is definitely an american thing, I grant you that. The German value system does not emphasise liberty that much. It is also true that the obsession with free will is uniquely a christian thing, and therefore it's quite clear why the japanese don't even have a word for liberty. But it is unfair to say that the discussion has not flourished in other languages. As I said, the French have a thing for liberty, though they may mean something different by it, and the Swiss too, who fought a civil war over liberty just like you did (I already directed you to the swiss constitution). I only speak French and German, so I cannot comment on other cultures. 
It is also worth noting that even anglophones do not agree on what liberty really is. You can ask any two people from two anglophone countries to define liberty, and they will give you radically different answers. There is an argument to be made that the current popular interpretation of liberty by the americans is not quite healthy, leaning more towards freedom worship than the respect for free will. I am open to having this argument.
Alles in Österreich ist verboten = Everything is Austria is vorbidden (hyperbole, but true)

2. Your example still makes my point, not yours, I think.

3. This is what I was talking about a while ago. Libertarianism is very appealing to me, but unfortunately it hasn't been implemented yet, not even on a small scale. If we were to implement it in a large superpower like the USA, it can very well end ugly, just like Russia did with their experiment, and it will not only be the americans who will suffer, but literally everyone else too. There is reason to believe that libertarianism is even more incompatible with human nature than communism is.

4. I am hard at work currently studying the policies of Luxembourg, Switzerland and Ireland on how they keep stealing all the best minds from the world. No matter what you say about the USA, it is no longer near the top freest countries in the world, and the evidence is there.

5. Thanks. I love learning on FDR, but the occasional hostility of members is a repellant to many, including me by now.

1. I don't think it's clear which country is more free than another, either. In fact, one would probably have to be specific when talking about it. More free with what? Getting a job? Traveling? Starting a family? Being taxed? etc. My point is that the US has some pretty big things going for it in the realm of freedom that the rest of the world doesn't:

   A.) It's English-speaking, which as I've mentioned is the language that has proselytized freedom.
   B.) Despite the Homer Simpson-esque qualities of much of the population, it has a tradition of freedom. Getting people to think about freedom is more about getting them to analyze the words they're already using and traditions they're already following, unlike other cultures and languages where the vocabulary still needs to be developed and the traditions are non-existent.
   C.) The US is a super power. What happens here makes a big effect on the rest of the world.
   D.) The US still largely has 1st Amendment protections.
   E.) Its nationalist "re-awakening" has been successful enough to elect Trump. Every western European attempt at this has failed so far. (Austria was SO CLOSE!!!!)

2. I don't think so. Obviously there is no way to prove this, but I have the feeling Thomas Paine had no idea what was possible until he came to the US. Remember, when he arrived, he got sick and was bedridden for a year. By the time he was up and able, the American Rebellion had already started. I think the evidence is strong enough to point out that his Common Sense turned the American Rebellion into the American Revolution, which though a massive feat, he was taking advantage of the tsunami of history that started prior to him being there. He was probably high on his own successes when he went back to England and France to try again, and to find out that same tsunami hadn't occurred, which almost cost him his head.

Thomas Paine's time was different because no one knew what was possible. Because of Thomas Paine, we now know what is possible. Paine himself didn't have enough information to know where he should move, and he was lucky enough to wake up from being sick in the middle of a rebellion led by the most literate society in human history.

3. I don't think libertarianism or anarchy gets "implemented". They're directions, not locations. You use the core principles of the philosophy to guide your actions. It's a question of how to continue to guide those actions into the future.

4. Refer to point #1. By the way, I'm not criticizing attempts at making those countries more free. I just think you're dealing with a harder problem.

5. YUUUUUUP. 

[M.2]

6 hours ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

1. I don't think it's clear which country is more free than another, either. In fact, one would probably have to be specific when talking about it. More free with what? Getting a job? Traveling? Starting a family? Being taxed? etc. My point is that the US has some pretty big things going for it in the realm of freedom that the rest of the world doesn't:

   A.) It's English-speaking, which as I've mentioned is the language that has proselytized freedom.
   B.) Despite the Homer Simpson-esque qualities of much of the population, it has a tradition of freedom. Getting people to think about freedom is more about getting them to analyze the words they're already using and traditions they're already following, unlike other cultures and languages where the vocabulary still needs to be developed and the traditions are non-existent.
   C.) The US is a super power. What happens here makes a big effect on the rest of the world.
   D.) The US still largely has 1st Amendment protections.
   E.) Its nationalist "re-awakening" has been successful enough to elect Trump. Every western European attempt at this has failed so far. (Austria was SO CLOSE!!!!)

2. I don't think so. Obviously there is no way to prove this, but I have the feeling Thomas Paine had no idea what was possible until he came to the US. Remember, when he arrived, he got sick and was bedridden for a year. By the time he was up and able, the American Rebellion had already started. I think the evidence is strong enough to point out that his Common Sense turned the American Rebellion into the American Revolution, which though a massive feat, he was taking advantage of the tsunami of history that started prior to him being there. He was probably high on his own successes when he went back to England and France to try again, and to find out that same tsunami hadn't occurred, which almost cost him his head.

Thomas Paine's time was different because no one knew what was possible. Because of Thomas Paine, we now know what is possible. Paine himself didn't have enough information to know where he should move, and he was lucky enough to wake up from being sick in the middle of a rebellion led by the most literate society in human history.

3. I don't think libertarianism or anarchy gets "implemented". They're directions, not locations. You use the core principles of the philosophy to guide your actions. It's a question of how to continue to guide those actions into the future.

1. I have already made a scientific comparison of the freest countries. Feel free to check it out.
A) You are going to have to give me more than just anecdotes and sentimentalism. I think you just believe that because you are an anglophone. The best works that I have read on freedom were all originally in latin or italian. The first GLOBAL abolishion of slavery was in 1537: Pope Paul III forbids slavery of the indigenous peoples of the Americas as well as of any other new population that would be discovered, indicating their right to freedom and property (Sublimis Deus) Americans were pretty late to the party.
B) I get that you love your freedom. It is just sad that you took it away from everyone else. (I acknowledge only 2 success stories of freedom crusade)
C) My concern exactly.
D) Well... If I wanted to speak my mind, america is not the place I would pick.
E) Here is where you are uninformed. The ÖVP have won a massive victory, and are leading the country towards V4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_legislative_election,_2017
That's not even mentioning the back-and-forth state of Ireland, the silent nationalism of Switzerland, and Luxembourg the hypocrite. Or are these not Western European? Please don't be Ignoramus Americanus.

2. Whatever he did was in the end a failiure anyway, so I don't know why we are even arguing over it. Almost all of the freedoms won by the american revolution had been lost within the proceeding 50 years. Just as it was with the French Revolution, your revolution ultimately failed. I don't think you can deny this. Australia, who stayed under the crown, are by now far more free than the US. To go further, some provinces of Canada are freer than most US states.

3. Awfully familiar words... Did uncle Lenin say something like this back in 1921?

[Spiritual-Autarky]

On 1/16/2018 at 11:51 PM, ofd said:

How does that follow? The average IQ of Somalis is about 68, close to retardation. Why is it rational to check a group of 100 people, only to find out that 2 or 3 can function in a modern western society?

Because they were thw  "moderate rebels" of the 1980s....Didn't deter people like Paul Mannafort from seeking outRebels for invitation to America in the 1980s either

 

Nor did iddeter all the dastardly  (and race-naivist) Islamic "Charities" from paying their way into the West by the thosuands in the name of Muslim Solidarity .... (or form as pawns in maniplauiton.. A kind of Muslim version of Coudehove-Kalergi immigration, except wiht much more religion and of Poltical Islamism . We can see this in Israel oddly enough, where this CKism is meant as tool of statescraft  to distract from the Palestinean issue. You will have to yoru resouces to chase after negores instead of delaing wiht Palestinean....Sweden helped with that CKism through the various foudnations and state sanctioned initiatives as well.....which is why....(surprise, lol)...bunches  of subsaharanimals ended up in Scandanavia [a lot of this started in the 1990s, thoguh, so was not apparent to them,....total race-naivism prevented them .. which is why race naivism is keyboard wtf]

 

 

Back on topic, though. Did the OP [@ jrosefeld  I beleive]  get his question asweredy imm As to wh? Or is ti simply  ametter of "differeing belief"? adress htis to him directly...

We live as we believe, whether we are concious of it or not. If your beleifs do not match up with reality, you will be doing much  harm to your eellows, becasue you will be acting on asense of "justice" which goes to Truth and Natural Law  The same way that those few naivist (cuck?) "conservatives" advocated for egalitarianism, only to Crisis in europe

 

As an american, it i your duty to supprot.. You are not obliged to fawn over Donald Trump if you truly believe (and perhaps rightly so,) tat he enables.....measure through lens of  egalitarianism. You will aslo have tor ralise , which you beleif producee an alternative canditate is literally fuckign impossible in the untiesd States..... It iis  either liberalism . You at least owe to fellow Euro-Americans who voted for Dt  to respect their decision not to be in their own country! Choose anothrer, but not that

They will all have to pay fro their folly witnessign theworsening social that  once the gets fruther down the road. than it is now and get

 

For your sake, and for the sake of , you had better hope you're to leanr out naivist patterns.

[Spiritual-Autarky]

so many errors... holy smurfs! :-(

Sorry