Is God competent or incompetent?

[Gnostic Bishop]

Is God competent or incompetent?

 

We are told in scriptures that evil begets evil and good begets good. God, as our creator, according to scriptures, creates us all as sinners, which many see as evil.

 

God can thus be seen and judged as being the original sinner since the fruits of his labor (us) went bad or are born bad.  A tree is known by its fruits.  What else could come from a sinner tree but sin?

 

I give God a fail on competence for the following reasons.

God created heaven that produced Satan. Fail.

God created Eden which produced Original Sin. Fail.

God had to reboot creation with Noah’s flood. Fail.

God sent his son to forgive mankind instead of stepping up himself. Fail, for moral reasons.

God also had to create hell for his rejects which scriptures say will be the vast majority of us. Fail.

 

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds and if we believe that, then the Christian God would obviously be rejected by Jesus and agree with my fail judgement.

 

Do you agree?

 

Regards

DL

[RichardY]

Define God. Besides without God wouldn't have the Indiana Jones movies, plus other entertainment.

[Jsbrads]

Did God create man as a sinner?

Or is it humans after the Fall who are born in sin. Still innocent, but with a tendency bequeathed to us by the first man who failed?

[Tyler H]

I want to know how Zeus would hold onto lightning. Did he have a special glove? Does he make the lightning himself, or did he have to go collect it and put it in a lightning bag? 

[Gavitor]

How can something that doesn't exist be competent?

[Alrightt]

You're under the impression that the fall of Satan, the fall of man, and the flood are examples of things not going how God intended.  All of these things occurred because God willed them to occur, and through them we are able to see some attributes of God such as his holiness, justness, and hatred of sin. The life, death, and resurrection of Christ wouldn't have been necessary without the fall.  Under your perspective Christ was just a band-aid to fix things not going according to plan.  I don't know if your perspective involves staying consistent to the Bible in these matters, but the Bible presents the atonement as planned by God before the foundation of the world, not as something that God decided to do when the fall happened.

[Tyler H]

8 hours ago, Alrightt said:

You're under the impression that the fall of Satan, the fall of man, and the flood are examples of things not going how God intended.  All of these things occurred because God willed them to occur, and through them we are able to see some attributes of God such as his holiness, justness, and hatred of sin.

Oh, so he’s a sadist who likes to show off then? He created sentient beings in order to make them suffer, and this displays justice and holiness? 

[Alrightt]

On 2/15/2018 at 4:52 PM, Tyler H said:

Oh, so he’s a sadist who likes to show off then? He created sentient beings in order to make them suffer, and this displays justice and holiness? 

Yes, justice and holiness is displayed through the consequences of rebelling against God.  If you find this display distasteful or sadistic, that just further supports the Christian perspective that humanity is indeed fallen and in rebellion against God. You have something at stake here if humanity really is guilty, so you fight it.  If we were discussing the throwing of the fallen angels into the lake of fire I don't think you'd bring up sadism. If that's the case, it would be helpful to think about that inconsistency in your stance. 

[Donnadogsoth]

9 minutes ago, Alrightt said:

Yes, justice and holiness is displayed through the consequences of rebelling against God.  If you find this display distasteful or sadistic, that just further supports the Christian perspective that humanity is indeed fallen and in rebellion against God. You have something at stake here if humanity really is guilty, so you fight it.  If we were discussing the throwing of the fallen angels into the lake of fire I don't think you'd bring up sadism. If that's the case, it would be helpful to think about that inconsistency in your stance. 

However, as much as what you say makes sense, you must agree that if God's mercy outweighed his justice he would simply destroy the world rather than leave it to suffer, much less throwing people into Hell.

[Tyler H]

16 hours ago, Alrightt said:

Yes, justice and holiness is displayed through the consequences of rebelling against God.  If you find this display distasteful or sadistic, that just further supports the Christian perspective that humanity is indeed fallen and in rebellion against God. You have something at stake here if humanity really is guilty, so you fight it.  If we were discussing the throwing of the fallen angels into the lake of fire I don't think you'd bring up sadism. If that's the case, it would be helpful to think about that inconsistency in your stance. 

Could you define justice and holiness for me please?

[Jsbrads]

 Alrightt I think you were speaking to me in your first post.

The Garden story seems to indicate a “chose your own story” option. God knew both story branches that he presented to man and he knew which branch man would choose due to God’s insulation from the limits of time, but God didn’t make that choice for man.

It would be hard to know or describe what the world would be like had we not violated the command, but even a naturalist view combined with a true psychological insight into man’s nature might be able to explain how if man were more accepting of limitations, the same environment in which man must toil to work the soil to get food and in which thisels and thorns grow, would not be a curse, but accepted as normal by a man with a more accepting nature.

Would this more accepting man innovate? Seek to change his environment to better suit people? Was the Fall a better option for man? Does God prefer Fallen men who seek him out to unFallen men who know him? I don’t know.

[Andrejs Matjola]

Gnostic Bishop, please provide evidence where scripture says that God creates people as sinners.
I don't understand your last assessment.
As for God not coming to Earth himself would be hard to explain since there is little information about the trinity. In John 14:9 Bible says "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" and John 10:30 says "I and My Father are one". It also requires to understand Jewish language of what being one means. In Jewish language married couple is one even though there is mother and father (Genesis 2:24).
Creation of hell is also a very misunderstood Bible concept. Read Revelation 20:9-10 that describes the execution of punishment after fair trial and 2 Peter 2 verse 6 to understand that "burning forever and ever" means the consequences of punishing fire will last forever not the actual burning. Since it says the same spot where lake of fire was burning Jesus recreates into a new earth.

Now, finally for your original point the answer is surprisingly simple. If there was an excuse for sin it would not be sin and guilt could not be assigned. I encourage you to read a book "patriarchs and prophets" chapter 1—Why was Sin Permitted?. I hesitate to provide a link since most forums ban new users from linking stuff. The book is available for free on egwwritings (dot) org. Bottom line: God created free agents and one chose to not obey God.

[Alrightt]

On 2/18/2018 at 8:05 PM, Donnadogsoth said:

However, as much as what you say makes sense, you must agree that if God's mercy outweighed his justice he would simply destroy the world rather than leave it to suffer, much less throwing people into Hell.

Am I correct in thinking that when you say "destroy the world", you mean to end humanity's existence at that point of destruction so that there wouldn't be an eternity of suffering in hell? I just want to make sure I'm on the same page.

[Alrightt]

On 2/19/2018 at 12:07 PM, Tyler H said:

Could you define justice and holiness for me please?

When I say justice I mean for God to stay consistent with who He is and his declared, prescriptive will.

When I say holiness I mean his total moral purity, including his abhorrence of evil. 

[Alrightt]

On 2/19/2018 at 3:21 PM, Jsbrads said:

 Alrightt I think you were speaking to me in your first post.

The Garden story seems to indicate a “chose your own story” option. God knew both story branches that he presented to man and he knew which branch man would choose due to God’s insulation from the limits of time, but God didn’t make that choice for man.

It would be hard to know or describe what the world would be like had we not violated the command, but even a naturalist view combined with a true psychological insight into man’s nature might be able to explain how if man were more accepting of limitations, the same environment in which man must toil to work the soil to get food and in which thisels and thorns grow, would not be a curse, but accepted as normal by a man with a more accepting nature.

Would this more accepting man innovate? Seek to change his environment to better suit people? Was the Fall a better option for man? Does God prefer Fallen men who seek him out to unFallen men who know him? I don’t know.

A "chose your own story" option isn't what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches a sovereign God whose Will shall be done.

"I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose"

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎20‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 9:07 AM, Andrejs Matjola said:

Gnostic Bishop, please provide evidence where scripture says that God creates people as sinners.
I don't understand your last assessment.
As for God not coming to Earth himself would be hard to explain since there is little information about the trinity. In John 14:9 Bible says "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father" and John 10:30 says "I and My Father are one". It also requires to understand Jewish language of what being one means. In Jewish language married couple is one even though there is mother and father (Genesis 2:24).
Creation of hell is also a very misunderstood Bible concept. Read Revelation 20:9-10 that describes the execution of punishment after fair trial and 2 Peter 2 verse 6 to understand that "burning forever and ever" means the consequences of punishing fire will last forever not the actual burning. Since it says the same spot where lake of fire was burning Jesus recreates into a new earth.

Now, finally for your original point the answer is surprisingly simple. If there was an excuse for sin it would not be sin and guilt could not be assigned. I encourage you to read a book "patriarchs and prophets" chapter 1—Why was Sin Permitted?. I hesitate to provide a link since most forums ban new users from linking stuff. The book is available for free on egwwritings (dot) org. Bottom line: God created free agents and one chose to not obey God.

Evidence for the Christian dogma that says we are born sinners is evidence by Original Sin and baptism.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

 

The Trinity is a ridiculous concept.

 

Regards

DL

[Foolmetwice.]

Well since God created us all, God displays the ultimate in artistic content, for everyone is represented, also if God fails at anything, who would know? God may have created many people prone to resenting anyone who can do anything really well, just to find out if they might self right and worry about there own failings first then get on Gods case, also the very concept of failure and the ability to see it is also Gods work, and those who think God isnt real and creation was a super snowball into a souper original recipe soup with a spark of chance to set it on fire, that is Gods hand right there, or I think so anyway, does anyone wonder how we can think and what is actually going on there? God knows how that works, I think.I could be wrong of course, but dont think I am.

[Tyler H]

10 hours ago, Alrightt said:

When I say justice I mean for God to stay consistent with who He is and his declared, prescriptive will.

I don't understand; how could anything or anyone be inconsistent with what it or he is? Regardless, you've just defined justice as God.  If God is justice, how do we know that?

Coke is it.

What is "it"?

Coke.

It's a meaningless tautology.

10 hours ago, Alrightt said:

When I say holiness I mean his total moral purity, including his abhorrence of evil. 

So holiness is perfect morality? What is morality? We must have a standard in order to ensure He meets it right?

[Donnadogsoth]

On 2/26/2018 at 8:33 AM, Alrightt said:

Am I correct in thinking that when you say "destroy the world", you mean to end humanity's existence at that point of destruction so that there wouldn't be an eternity of suffering in hell? I just want to make sure I'm on the same page.

I mean that if God were ruled wholly by mercy he would not have created the world at all, nor would he have created Hell.

[AllanN]

On 1/17/2018 at 9:58 PM, Gnostic Bishop said:

Is God competent or incompetent?

We are told in scriptures that evil begets evil and good begets good. God, as our creator, according to scriptures, creates us all as sinners, which many see as evil.

God can thus be seen and judged as being the original sinner since the fruits of his labor (us) went bad or are born bad.  A tree is known by its fruits.  What else could come from a sinner tree but sin?

I give God a fail on competence for the following reasons.

God created heaven that produced Satan. Fail.

God created Eden which produced Original Sin. Fail.

God had to reboot creation with Noah’s flood. Fail.

God sent his son to forgive mankind instead of stepping up himself. Fail, for moral reasons.

God also had to create hell for his rejects which scriptures say will be the vast majority of us. Fail.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds and if we believe that, then the Christian God would obviously be rejected by Jesus and agree with my fail judgement.

Do you agree?

Regards

DL

You say, "God failed," then it follows that you know the purpose of God.  It would be more correct if you said according to your knowledge God failed.  Lacking that knowledge you have put forward false assumptions.

Further, you're mixing Old Testament with New.  The Old Testament is a long held province of religious Jews.  Christians co-opted the concept of One God and even the Old Testament from the Jews.  Therefore you should talk to a skilled Rabbi who may be more enlightening than Christians on the subject of Old Testament questions.

[Jsbrads]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:11 AM, Gnostic Bishop said:

Evidence for the Christian dogma that says we are born sinners is evidence by Original Sin and baptism.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

 

The Trinity is a ridiculous concept.

 

Regards

DL

God didn’t start creation with the Psalmist King David. God started creation with Adam. Adam was born without sin. Once Adam chose sin, everyone born after was born with sin within us. We are all the children of Adam and Eve. 

[AllanN]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:17 PM, BelovedRock said:

Well since God created us all, God displays the ultimate in artistic content, for everyone is represented, also if God fails at anything, who would know? God may have created many people prone to resenting anyone who can do anything really well, just to find out if they might self right and worry about there own failings first then get on Gods case, also the very concept of failure and the ability to see it is also Gods work, and those who think God isnt real and creation was a super snowball into a souper original recipe soup with a spark of chance to set it on fire, that is Gods hand right there, or I think so anyway, does anyone wonder how we can think and what is actually going on there? God knows how that works, I think.I could be wrong of course, but dont think I am.

Yeah well, the sciences can't understand how we think and that's a solid fact.

[RichardY]

 

[rwymer]

Well since God created us all, God displays the ultimate in artistic content, for everyone is represented, also if God fails at anything, who would know? God would know as God knows everything. God may have created many people prone God's creation of sentient beings (like you), were created with free will to think, do, and create what you will. to resenting anyone who can do anything really well, "resentment" is a nonproductive choice. just to find out if they might self right and worry about there own failings  first then get on Gods case, God does not judge. He observes as his creations evolve and learn as we adjust our choices based on the consequences of our right and wrong choices. also the very concept of failure and the ability to see it is also Gods work, Right, and if we seek success, we will find it if we correct the choices we made that produced failure. and those who think God isnt real and creation was a super snowball into a souper original recipe soup with a spark of chance to set it on fire, that is Gods hand right there, or I think so anyway, does anyone wonder how we can think We can think, and the fact is confirmed by observing that we can think about thinking. The question of the process of how is a question for God, the question of what we think and what we create from our thought is totally up to the individual.  and what is actually going on there? God knows how that works, Right, and we will also know as we chose to become closer to God. I think.I could be wrong of course, but dont think I am.

Peter Erbe: God I AM,  "Ask not: Who or What is God? Ask: Who or What is He not?

Is the Universe rational? Demonstrably it is, as we all know, otherwise why do we seek knowledge in any sphere, in any area of science, except to discover how the Universe works.  I believe in God because I believe in rationality!  And as only a sentient being can express, demonstrate, or create rationality, then the Universe is a sentient Being -- IE.: GOD.  The Universe is God. This concept cannot be grasped by those who want to anthropomorphize God.

Edited March 16, 2018 by rwymer
Explanatory addition.

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎26‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 5:17 PM, BelovedRock said:

Well since God created us all, God displays the ultimate in artistic content, for everyone is represented, also if God fails at anything, who would know? God may have created many people prone to resenting anyone who can do anything really well, just to find out if they might self right and worry about there own failings first then get on Gods case, also the very concept of failure and the ability to see it is also Gods work, and those who think God isnt real and creation was a super snowball into a souper original recipe soup with a spark of chance to set it on fire, that is Gods hand right there, or I think so anyway, does anyone wonder how we can think and what is actually going on there? God knows how that works, I think.I could be wrong of course, but dont think I am.

That is a faith based belief.

Do you have any facts to bolster your faith in the supernatural?

Regards

DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎04‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 3:01 PM, AllanN said:

You say, "God failed," then it follows that you know the purpose of God.  It would be more correct if you said according to your knowledge God failed.  Lacking that knowledge you have put forward false assumptions.

Further, you're mixing Old Testament with New.  The Old Testament is a long held province of religious Jews.  Christians co-opted the concept of One God and even the Old Testament from the Jews.  Therefore you should talk to a skilled Rabbi who may be more enlightening than Christians on the subject of Old Testament questions.

Thanks for the suggestion but Jews and Rabbis go from fundamental literalists to atheists with Karaite Jews in the middle where they put man above God.

If the purpose of any and all Gods do not include serving mankind, then he is not worthy of us as he would not be following the natural law he supposedly created.

Natural law says that, like in your family, the strong serve the weak. Your strong members do not likely ask the wea to serve them.

As to old and new testaments, the Christians have usurped both and that is clear in their changing the moral of the story of Eden from the Jewish view that Eden was our place of elevation as compared to the Christian view of our fall.

Go where you like from here.

Regards

DL

 

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎06‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 11:55 PM, Jsbrads said:

God didn’t start creation with the Psalmist King David. God started creation with Adam. Adam was born without sin. Once Adam chose sin, everyone born after was born with sin within us. We are all the children of Adam and Eve. 

That is not true if these scriptures are.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

 

One more.

 

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

 

Your answer defies logic and reason. How could Adam choose to sin when sin is evil when he had yet to know of anything about good and evil till after he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

 

He would not even know it was evil to disobey God or if death was good or evil. Right?

 

Regards

DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎16‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 12:03 PM, rwymer said:

 

Peter Erbe: God I AM,  "Ask not: Who or What is God? Ask: Who or What is He not?

Is the Universe rational? Demonstrably it is, as we all know, otherwise why do we seek knowledge in any sphere, in any area of science, except to discover how the Universe works.  I believe in God because I believe in rationality!  And as only a sentient being can express, demonstrate, or create rationality, then the Universe is a sentient Being -- IE.: GOD.  The Universe is God. This concept cannot be grasped by those who want to anthropomorphize God.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentient

1. A sentient being is one who perceives and responds to sensations of whatever kind - sight, hearing, touch, taste, or smell. Sentient ultimately comes from the Latin verb sentire, which means "to feel" and is related to the noun sensus, meaning "feeling" or "sense."

 

Sentient usually includes the ability to communicate. No?

Why is God not communicating with us?

If you or I wanted to be relevant to someone, we would get in touch. No?

Regards

DL

[barn]

On 01/25/2018 at 6:43 PM, Tyler H said:

I want to know how Zeus would hold onto lightning. Did he have a special glove? Does he make the lightning himself, or did he have to go collect it and put it in a lightning bag? 

You bet, and quite the funky types...

[Elizbaeth]

On 1/17/2018 at 3:58 PM, Gnostic Bishop said:

God created Eden which produced Original Sin. Fail.

I’m not convinced that this was necessarily a bad thing. 

The tree of knowledge of good and evil introduced sin, but it also granted the capacity to desire good; it created the capacity for choice. This created the capacity for love. A human cannot chose to love a god (and show that love by choosing to emulate the good and live perfectly) if the human is not also capable of evil and unworthy actions and desires. If read this way, they story of the Garden of Eden is more like s coming if age story rather than a tragedy, and God is less a sadist than a parent figure. 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

7 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

I’m not convinced that this was necessarily a bad thing. 

The tree of knowledge of good and evil introduced sin, but it also granted the capacity to desire good; it created the capacity for choice. This created the capacity for love. A human cannot chose to love a god (and show that love by choosing to emulate the good and live perfectly) if the human is not also capable of evil and unworthy actions and desires. If read this way, they story of the Garden of Eden is more like s coming if age story rather than a tragedy, and God is less a sadist than a parent figure. 

Leap-frogging off what you said, I pretty much have always seen it that way since it's virtually impossible to be good if there is no ability to be evil. 

I have also seen it as a "test of free will", and the result was that given free will humans will make mistakes and sometimes make big mistakes. Sometimes they will willingly sin and commit moral crime. Other times they will be productive and moral champions. And then there are the people that have varied merits and sins to their records.

Ultimately I think Garden of Eden story is essentially one of "letting the kids go" or "letting the birds fly free" and seeing/watching what happens and letting history be written from there.

[Jsbrads]

 Eliz. Humans had choice before sin by definition.

 Gnost. visiting sin onto future generations... Have you heard of fetal alcohol syndrome? Crack babies? Do you know that 85% of prison pop come from single parent homes? The question isn’t is this evil, it is! The question is who did it?! The parents are evil, so don’t attribute to God what is done by man.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎24‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 1:14 PM, Elizbaeth said:

I’m not convinced that this was necessarily a bad thing. 

The tree of knowledge of good and evil introduced sin, but it also granted the capacity to desire good; it created the capacity for choice. This created the capacity for love. A human cannot chose to love a god (and show that love by choosing to emulate the good and live perfectly) if the human is not also capable of evil and unworthy actions and desires. If read this way, they story of the Garden of Eden is more like s coming if age story rather than a tragedy, and God is less a sadist than a parent figure. 

Yours is an intelligent view that I share.

As a female, can you guess why Christianity took what the Jews saw as man's elevation and success in Eden, for both man and God, and reversed the moral of the story from success to failure for all concerned?

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

 Regards

DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎24‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 1:24 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Leap-frogging off what you said, I pretty much have always seen it that way since it's virtually impossible to be good if there is no ability to be evil. 

I have also seen it as a "test of free will", and the result was that given free will humans will make mistakes and sometimes make big mistakes. Sometimes they will willingly sin and commit moral crime. Other times they will be productive and moral champions. And then there are the people that have varied merits and sins to their records.

Ultimately I think Garden of Eden story is essentially one of "letting the kids go" or "letting the birds fly free" and seeing/watching what happens and letting history be written from there.

A good view.

I asked Elizbaeth a question above on Christianity reversing the original meaning of the story. Care to speculate on why they did that?

Regards

DL 

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

On ‎26‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 1:58 AM, Jsbrads said:

 

Quote

Eliz. Humans had choice before sin by definition.

That is not logical.

All that is knowable is subject to the adjectives of good and evil so the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the tree of all knowledge. You cannot name anything that is not subject to good or evil.

Therefore, without any knowledge whatsoever, desire to sin or not sin could not be triggered.

Thais Rabbi gives the longer version if you care to hear her, start this up at the 30 min. mark.

   

Quote

 

 

 

 Gnost. visiting sin onto future generations... Have you heard of fetal alcohol syndrome? Crack babies? Do you know that 85% of prison pop come from single parent homes? The question isn’t is this evil, it is! The question is who did it?! The parents are evil, so don’t attribute to God what is done by man.

 

 

Fathers, regardless of other conditions, would not desire or conspire to pass on their sins to their children. 

God is said to be the creator and sustainer of us all. He would thus be willfully passing on those sins which according to the bible is injustice.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

 

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

 

If you prefer to think that God is such an unjust prick, who would ignore what he tells us is justice in the bible, go ahead.

I will easily agree that Yahweh, a genocidal son murdering God is an unjust prick.

Regards

DL