Ronin_3000 Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 How can we determine whether someone is mature enough to consent to sex or contracts in general?
Kikker Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 Who is "we"? And what is the relationship between "we" and "someone"?
Ronin_3000 Posted February 4, 2018 Author Posted February 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kikker said: Who is "we"? And what is the relationship between "we" and "someone"? We is people in general, and "we" and "someone" are two people who want to hook up sexually.
M.2 Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 This is a good one. I'll expand the question a bit. What is the method of determining whether someone is self-responsible legally, morally, biologically, mentally and in other ways? As far as my knowledge goes, it seems uncomfortably arbitrary the way we do it in our species.
barn Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 Hi @Ronin_3000 , It would be much easier if there was a clearly described example(, maybe you knew). Perhaps, approaching it from the opposite pole is easier to highlight the key criterias. The way I understand, a person who isn't mature enough : ° physically, emotionally and by law aren't mature/adult ° have no / insufficient frame of reference/relatable experience (no comparison or false comparisons, therefore unable to perceive probable consequences) ° wouldn't take responsibility for their past actions ("sufferer", sees luck rather than consequences in general... =promise of repetition) ° wouldn't change their behaviour when superior information was available ("ideas have people") + (dependence) + (refusal to curiosity) ° inconsistencies when principles (or lack of) are compared with actions (says one thing, does another) + (unreliable, can't keep their word even to themselves) ° unable of deferral of gratification (can't withstand the lure of immediate satisfaction) ° LACKS SELF-KNOWLEDGE and a basic understanding of why they do what they do. (having trouble describing their identity) ° aren't economically, emotionally independent (can be coerced due to dependence, "fold" under peer pressure ) ° aren't predisposed to talking about the topic and it's ramifications openly (honesty, assertiveness, chance of push-back) + (can be manipulated) ° lacking support group(s), individuals who care genuinely for their TRUE wellbeing, people on the lookout for him/her. (if an addict is about to relapse, their support group is rather than giving him/her a drink <what he/she says would make him/her happy> do everything to keep him/her sober instead) ° [1/2] sees the interaction as a tool for something else, it's a way to something else (intimacy/contract is a direct shortcut to the unspoken secondary motivation) ° [2/2] demonstrates traits related to "Simon the boxer", Stockholm syndrome (unexamined incentives lead to mindless photocopying/inflicting of past behaviour / suffering) ° wouldn't be able to see if only one party benefited from the interaction, while the other experienced a net loss (worse off after the consent/contract) ... tons more. Barnsley
Ronin_3000 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Posted February 5, 2018 Let's say you want to have sex with a young girl in a free society. How can you make sure you're not statutory raping her?
barn Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) Before proceeding any further, may I ask what you thought of the feedback you got? Did you agree with every, none, some of them... if not, why not? Edited February 5, 2018 by barn typo
Ronin_3000 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Posted February 5, 2018 I think those are all good qualities of recognizing maturity, but I have 2 problems with them. 1 is that I think many people go through their entire lives without overcoming some of those things. Does that mean it's unethical to have sex with these people? The second problem is that it's a lot of criteria. It would be unrealistic to go through all those criteria for a simple hookup. Does that mean hookups are inherently reckless and unethical?
Ronin_3000 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Posted February 5, 2018 Maybe there could be a test that tests for those criteria you mentioned. If you pass the test, then you get a sex license that allows you to have ethical hookups. What do you think?
barn Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) That's reasonable, I think... regarding the first point 35 minutes ago, Ronin_3000 said: 1 is that I think many people go through their entire lives without overcoming some of those things True, while the the way you put it makes it sound like they don't have agency in that. It's not true. People choose to live an ignorant life or not. I mean, once you aren't depending on your parents for shelter and the rest of the things anymore... You could start making better decisions. This is what I mean : "... many people choose going through their entire lives without overcoming some of those things.. " 35 minutes ago, Ronin_3000 said: Does that mean it's unethical to have sex with these people? Yes. I would say, it is. 35 minutes ago, Ronin_3000 said: The second problem is that it's a lot of criteria I can see how it seems like that the list of things could each represent a separate part on its own... let me give an example, see if it helps. i.e. In order to drive a car safely, one must: - be conscious of the current regulations, the state of the car, have a licence, know the destination, have a map/gps, operate all the instruments, read signals, have a good reaction time, practice of driving, responsible driver... etc. You don’t separately notice/focus on each and every one of them while taking your car to buy groceries. It almost seems automatic. (but in fact, you had to learn and practise each element a lot before. Some stuff was harder to learn and even then accidents still happen, some deadly) 35 minutes ago, Ronin_3000 said: It would be unrealistic to go through all those criteria for a simple hookup. I disagree with you, meanwhile it also makes sense where you are coming from. I. e. - It would be unrealistic to expect a person to safely drive a car who has never learnt to do it. (people who have a licence but 0 experience, on their first day... etc.) You should be taught & shown with examples the nuances of social interaction basics by your parents, family members ahead of time so you aren't clueless when it comes to those things in "live action". (At least, that's what parents who are really invested in the success of their child make sure of, future proofing their kids so they can properly evaluate, choose appropriately, not fall for illusions/traps... 35 minutes ago, Ronin_3000 said: Does that mean hookups are inherently reckless and unethical? That's a rather broad way of looking at things. Depends on what are the people looking for in those interactions... You might have asked if casinos are inherently reckless and unethical? (depends on many things but most importantly the basis of comparison) Edited February 5, 2018 by barn grrrmer & added some
barn Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 28 minutes ago, Ronin_3000 said: Maybe there could be a test that tests for those criteria you mentioned. If you pass the test, then you get a sex license that allows you to have ethical hookups. What do you think? Probably, the best filter and or test you can get is called family and friends. (given, they are virtuous themselves and genuinely interested in your wellbeing) Self-knowledge is another one, plus upholding truth above else is quite a handy virtue to aim at. I know all these things might sound a bit too abstract, so imagine someone trying to learn about a far away land with only watching documentaries, reading travel guides. Perhaps it was better if the unexperienced person asked if someone who's an experienced traveller could help with proper preparation, going along the trip even, lending a hand in processing experiences, staying safe. (an experienced traveller has provable track record, skills in the end... like parents in a virtuous relationship)
Ronin_3000 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Posted February 5, 2018 How can I know if my parents are virtuous? They say they are interested in my well-being, but how can I know they are sincere?
barn Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 I am worried that any answer I'd give to that question would lack any sort of true meaning... sort of like an empty proverb or what Stefan M. usually calls "Hallmark cards"... First of all, you should be able to distinguish what is/isn't virtue and why? It's a lot to say, won't go into it here&now(sorry). You could start checking out call in shows labelled with dating, parents, virtue... etc. on fdrpodcasts and see if you are having more questions, realisations... You'll know what to look up in detail, stay curious and observant.
Ronin_3000 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Posted February 5, 2018 Well I am a violent criminal, so I'm not virtuous. Can virtuous parents raise a corrupt child?
barn Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 24 minutes ago, Ronin_3000 said: Can virtuous parents raise a corrupt child? According to my (fairly uneducated and incomplete knowledge on the subject), probably not. Also, genetic predisposition plays a huge role as well but not entirely deterministic or without options for managing with appropriate knowledge/tools. 24 minutes ago, Ronin_3000 said: Well I am a violent criminal, so I'm not virtuous. < That's a very strong statement. Just noticing it. > Would you say that you are comfortable identifying as such? Have you decided to stay a criminal?
Ronin_3000 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Posted February 5, 2018 I've decided to stop being a criminal for now, but I can't say I would be opposed to all forms of crime in the future. I'm pretty comfortable identifying as a violent criminal.
barn Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, Ronin_3000 said: I've decided to stop being a criminal for now, but I can't say I would be opposed to all forms of crime in the future. I'm pretty comfortable identifying as a violent criminal. Then, I'm afraid our conversation should end here. It's because I don't think I can add any value currently to that realm. I honestly think you're going to benefit from listening to call in shows, particularly the one that is also on youtub called "The Danger of Being a Drug Dealer".
Ronin_3000 Posted February 5, 2018 Author Posted February 5, 2018 I just watched it. I don't do drugs like the caller, but I do play games and do escapist things. I'm going to see my therapist tomorrow. Do you have any recommendations on what to ask him or talk to him about?
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