So, at some time, in the distant past..say 2000 years ago(?)....

[nixy]

....people, miraculously,  all (99.99%?) decided to defend themselves against tyranny. They educated their young, they were allowed to use as much force as was needed ONLY to defend themselves and others.

The young were also told, although property they acquired by work, talent & good fortune belonged to them ....... the land could (and should) not be owned.

People and land could not be owned by other people.... But people were completely free to trade, but must not cause harm nor loss to others.

 

What would life be like today.....if the above had been implemented years ago??

Just a thought experiment ..... reserve the right(?) to reword it according to any suggestions?

 

 

 

[nixy]

revision 1.

test

[RichardY]

2 hours ago, nixy said:

....people, miraculously,  all (99.99%?) decided to defend themselves against tyranny. They educated their young, they were allowed to use as much force as was needed ONLY to defend themselves and others.

The young were also told, although property they acquired by work, talent & good fortune belonged to them ....... the land could (and should) not be owned.

People and land could not be owned by other people.... But people were completely free to trade, but must not cause harm nor loss to others.

 

What would life be like today.....if the above had been implemented years ago??

Just a thought experiment ..... reserve the right(?) to reword it according to any suggestions?

Looking at Communism/Left Libertarianism. I think plagues would have periodically wipedout mass numbers of the population. Until.

End up with something like off the movie "Avatar" PANDORA. Consequently it is also Pancake day/Shrove Tuesday, today. Pan being the God of everything. Also ROYGBIV (Ancroynm for ElectroMagnetic Spectrum) kind of Pantheisitc in nature, used to have that mentioned a lot at school, "pft yeah I've only heard that for like the 100th time now."

For such a scenario to even be acheived imho, high conscientiousness would have to be decreased from a population, while IQ would have to be increased. An executive brain (high Conscientiousness) being more efficient, though not necessarily more effective than a low conscientious one. Though economy on space is important.

High Conscientiousness: Farms, Lawns, Husbandry, (Grey, White, Black), Order
Low Conscientiousness: Orchards, Hunting, Meadows, Multicolours, Chaos.

[nixy]

I forgot to say / ask of the honesty of fiat money creation. If money is (or should be) an accurate record of account of trade... a contract(?)

Richard, I was wondering, would (dis)honest money be high or low conscientiouesness, as opposed to fiat thin air credit 'money'?

I was thinking perhaps Bitcoin et al, where they can not (?) create other records of account from thin air...... given that it is said no more than 21million Bitcoin will be 'produced'.

Edit:- This to be added to the thought experiment ie This type of A system of accurate money was implemental years ago.

Edited February 17, 2018 by nixy
Typo + addition

[RichardY]

On 15/02/2018 at 9:27 AM, nixy said:

I forgot to say / ask of the honesty of fiat money creation. If money is (or should be) an accurate record of account of trade... a contract(?)

Richard, I was wondering, would (dis)honest money be high or low conscientiouesness, as opposed to fiat thin air credit 'money'?

I was thinking perhaps Bitcoin et al, where they can not (?) create other records of account from thin air...... given that it is said no more than 21million Bitcoin will be 'produced'.

Edit:- This to be added to the thought experiment ie This type of A system of accurate money was implemental years ago.

Money: Was listening to Nicomachean Ethics yesterday, and Aristotle said that Gold is not money in itself, rather the demand it represents. 
"I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of 10GBP"

Though how a state demanding something automatically gives it value, I can't see how that can be the case, outside of pure base survival. Unless you consider the state to be of some value, in which case the only parts that should demand money should be the "negative" parts (Law Enforcement & Military), two negatives making a postive or at least cancelling out. 

Fiat Currency: Fiat = Let it be.

Maybe the difference between the two is demand is something you can quantify, where as fiat is more perhaps desire.

Bitcoin: Read something about Russian Scientists using a supercomputer to mine bitcoin recently. If people want to transact in bitcoin or any numerous alternatives why not. Personally I don't have Bitcoin.

If you do away with demand, you do away with money. Maybe at some point in the far distant future money could be done away with, though you'd also do away with any price calculations and probably a lot of the effort required for advancement in living standards. Sci-Fiction realm.

  

[Elizbaeth]

On 2/21/2018 at 7:08 PM, RichardY said:

If you do away with demand, you do away with money. Maybe at some point in the far distant future money could be done away with, though you'd also do away with any price calculations and probably a lot of the effort required for advancement in living standards. Sci-Fiction realm.

I kinda think that money is a good way to create limits, and I think limitations are what drives forward progress. Money also lets you create and play out the possibility of future resources within certain limitations, and it can be a brilliant way to manipulate reality. I don’t really think it would benefit humanity to not have money, or at least some measure of potential resource acquisition. 

 

On 2/13/2018 at 11:15 AM, RichardY said:

For such a scenario to even be acheived imho, high conscientiousness would have to be decreased from a population, while IQ would have to be increased. An executive brain (high Conscientiousness) being more efficient, though not necessarily more effective than a low conscientious one. Though economy on space is important.

High Conscientiousness: Farms, Lawns, Husbandry, (Grey, White, Black), Order
Low Conscientiousness: Orchards, Hunting, Meadows, Multicolours, Chaos.

Interesting! But how could the Executive brain be more efficient but less effective? Wouldn’t efficiency automatically create more effectiveness?

[ofd]

It would have collapsed 1999 years ago, because food production would have become impossible.

[RichardY]

....people, miraculously,  all (99.99%?) decided to defend themselves against tyranny. 

BTW, I'm actually biased towards tyranny, while having a hatred of it. Existentially in lieu of individuation, there are 2 ways a person can go, Conformity(Feminin) or Tyranny(Masculine). Although perhaps both are generally not good.

16 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I kinda think that money is a good way to create limits, and I think limitations are what drives forward progress. Money also lets you create and play out the possibility of future resources within certain limitations, and it can be a brilliant way to manipulate reality. I don’t really think it would benefit humanity to not have money, or at least some measure of potential resource acquisition. 

I think on a community scale, that would be reflected in Interests Rates (representation of time preference in Austrian Economics).

However, I'm interested in how I might be able to transcend time preference entirely. I think that is probably beyond the scope of the forum, will probably look into phenomenology and see if that can provide me any answers. Christianity seemed to provide an answer in a way. Looked up Johnny Appleseed.... apparently was a devout Christian who planted nurseries across the USA, where is the time preference there?   

16 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

 Interesting! But how could the Executive brain be more efficient but less effective? Wouldn’t efficiency automatically create more effectiveness?

I think efficiency or effectiveness towards what purpose. 

"Every art and every enquiry and similarly every action and pursuit is thought to aim at some good and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim" - Aristotle

Speculating. 

Effectiveness being perhaps more raw horsepower. In a destructive/mechanic sense a sledgehammer or Axe approach. "Heres Johnny"

Efficiency being how focused someone is, whether that involves being slaved to a collective, dogma or philosophy. Dealing with perhaps more algorithmical thinking and following rules. However algorithms aren't always optimal to solving problems, even if they provide a solution. In a destructive/mechanic sense the scalpel approach.

Thinking of how society may act as some form of superorganism through the ego, though expressed in different ways. For instance "The Fatherland" vs "The Motherland", Spearhead vs Humanwave. Decentralised Command vs Centralised Command, Starship Troopers vs The Bugs......  Whether that may be reflected in brain structure somehow.

I think the answer to the question would depend on whether the person was individuated or basically completely apart of local ego consciousness(following the crowd). Although if the executive brain is decisive, then it will in general be able to make and more importantly execute decisions (for better or worse). The efficiency acting as a multiplier factor, but still limited to raw IQ power in a general population. However, since humans have writing it does provide the opportunity to read the writings of people with much greater intelligence when selection pressure by the outside environment was more brutal. Thereby helping to leverage the more efficient executive brain, although there would still be a minimum "Horsepower"/IQ requirement to be able to getover or comprehend various concepts, perhaps be like having a Humvee(Not very fuel efficient, but where you need the extra power....) or a Mini. 

[nixy]

On 2/24/2018 at 2:20 PM, RichardY said:

....people, miraculously,  all (99.99%?) decided to defend themselves against tyranny. 

BTW, I'm actually biased towards tyranny, while having a hatred of it. Existentially in lieu of individuation, there are 2 ways a person can go, Conformity(Feminin) or Tyranny(Masculine). Although perhaps both are generally not good.

I think on a community scale, that would be reflected in Interests Rates (representation of time preference in Austrian Economics).

However, I'm interested in how I might be able to transcend time preference entirely. I think that is probably beyond the scope of the forum, will probably look into phenomenology and see if that can provide me any answers. Christianity seemed to provide an answer in a way. Looked up Johnny Appleseed.... apparently was a devout Christian who planted nurseries across the USA, where is the time preference there?   

I think efficiency or effectiveness towards what purpose. 

"Every art and every enquiry and similarly every action and pursuit is thought to aim at some good and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim" - Aristotle

Speculating. 

Effectiveness being perhaps more raw horsepower. In a destructive/mechanic sense a sledgehammer or Axe approach. "Heres Johnny"

Efficiency being how focused someone is, whether that involves being slaved to a collective, dogma or philosophy. Dealing with perhaps more algorithmical thinking and following rules. However algorithms aren't always optimal to solving problems, even if they provide a solution. In a destructive/mechanic sense the scalpel approach.

Thinking of how society may act as some form of superorganism through the ego, though expressed in different ways. For instance "The Fatherland" vs "The Motherland", Spearhead vs Humanwave. Decentralised Command vs Centralised Command, Starship Troopers vs The Bugs......  Whether that may be reflected in brain structure somehow.

I think the answer to the question would depend on whether the person was individuated or basically completely apart of local ego consciousness(following the crowd). Although if the executive brain is decisive, then it will in general be able to make and more importantly execute decisions (for better or worse). The efficiency acting as a multiplier factor, but still limited to raw IQ power in a general population. However, since humans have writing it does provide the opportunity to read the writings of people with much greater intelligence when selection pressure by the outside environment was more brutal. Thereby helping to leverage the more efficient executive brain, although there would still be a minimum "Horsepower"/IQ requirement to be able to getover or comprehend various concepts, perhaps be like having a Humvee(Not very fuel efficient, but where you need the extra power....) or a Mini. 

Thanks for your reply ...... have not logged in the past few days as I thought I was banned.

Anyway, the point I was /am trying to explore, was if all who threatened violence / corcion were encarcerated, rather than whether or not tyranny might be some kind of desirable.  So the first person / group  attempting to extort a rent on stuff they did not own was / were banged up until they learned to produce goods & services in an honest & free market.

Someone above said food production would be impossible......? which makes no sense at all..... as the very few preventing food production would be in the slammer.

All hypthetical stuff, I know..... just some fun whatifery really.

 

[RichardY]

On 25/02/2018 at 3:20 PM, nixy said:

Thanks for your reply ...... have not logged in the past few days as I thought I was banned.

Anyway, the point I was /am trying to explore, was if all who threatened violence / corcion were encarcerated, rather than whether or not tyranny might be some kind of desirable.  So the first person / group  attempting to extort a rent on stuff they did not own was / were banged up until they learned to produce goods & services in an honest & free market.

Someone above said food production would be impossible......? which makes no sense at all..... as the very few preventing food production would be in the slammer.

All hypthetical stuff, I know..... just some fun whatifery really.

 

You see you're expressing a bias towards conformity. "People decided" not a person decided to.... The mental decision in itself not being so key, but more the concerted action in that decision.

The food production being impossible, I think would be because much of the incentives to plant, harvest at the optimal time, store and process crops would be lost. This is not to say that a few  people  still wouldn't continue to try to produce food or booze, but the fact that crops could be harvested early before someone else gets it being easier then waiting which might involve not getting food, the incentives would be all screwed up. 

Banging people up until they "learned to produce" things themselves, would imply some form of gulag or workhouse.