Help With Tantrums

[Elizbaeth]

Here’s the run-down. My 25 month old son is full of tantrums. It is painful and I am at a loss as how I should turn the shop around. He is very, very smart, and very full of energy and very curious and observant. 

 

So, here’s an example. Yesterday I was playing with my boys (25 months and 7 months) and we were having a fantastic time. The entire day was spent looking at things together and talking and exploring, until about 4:30pm. At this time, my older son and I were talking together and looking at a toy, and my younger son climbed up on me and wanted to be help. In the blink of an eye, my older son was screaming, and nothing seemed to make it better. This continued off an on until he went to sleep, which was around 7:15. At one point, it caused a big disagreement between me and my husband. I’m very against spanking and he is on the fence about it. He was visibly losing his cool and I told him I couldn’t tolerate our son being spanked, and he simply walked off and started playing video games until he cooled down, then he rejoined us and finished with the bedtime routine. 

It was miserable.

Today I woke up and was eager to see my son and start a new day and reconnect with him. I resolved to do better at listening, predicting his needs, and being connected and tuned in and also at setting clearer boundaries so that there would be no need for conflicts. Lunchtime came and my son started chunking his food everywhere (something I had explicitly told him not to do prior to sitting down), and so i asked him to pick up the food. He refused, so I sat beside him for a long time and waited. It quickly devolved into an awful scene of him crying and me trying to wait him out, and ended in me giving him a giant hug and him sobbing into my shoulder. 

I think I know where all of this is coming from. I made a lot of bad choices in the beginning. When my husband and I got together, he had a scary temper (still has a temper, but he has been making big strides in controlling it and it is on a more human scale) and I felt comfortable - familiar - managing my own feelings of sadness and loneliness and victimhood. The first year of my son’s life was tumultuous and extremely stressful, and I think this is the fallout. What I want to know is what is the best way to proceed from here, and how I can salvage the happiness and peace of my family. My husband and I have made a lot of progress with each other and ourselves, and we’re committed to each other and our family. I have not seen a counselor yet, but have been searching around the area for a good one and have done Peterson’s Self-Authoring suit, and have been listening to FDR for about 1.5 years. I know all of the peaceful parenting ideas and think that they are correct. I am trying to implement all the practices into all areas of my life, but I think I’m failing miserably. If I were doing it right, there wouldn’t be these issues. I think I’m either not looking at myself clearly enough - as in I haven’t made enough personal progress, therefore my son is still just reflecting my dysfunction - or am just missing something entirely. I’m heartsick and depressed at any conflict with my son, and the conflicts are increasing and I want to turn this ship around ASAP. 

Did any other parents start out poorly and turn things around? What did it take to really change things?

[Siegfried von Walheim]

Another armchair theory of mine:

Establish boundaries. Assuming he's old enough to reason you ought to say something like "if you do not behave (specify what behavior you want here) I will not (provide necessary service here)" and that can mean going without breakfast, lunch, and/or dinner. I know Stefpai mentioned in a video that, in response to a mother's son who having tantrums about going to sleep by himself, at some point the parents have to put their foot down and use ostracism to punish their child because the alternative (in her case) was having a son like her brother (who literally slept like a baby with his dad until he was a full grown adult). 

Now, I have to repeat: I COULD BE VERY WRONG! Parenting is not something to be wrong about. However assuming your boy is old enough to reason at a basic level, he ought to figure out what behaviors will engender what responses from you based on your actions. If you appease him whenever he shouts then he'll shout. He's not old enough to be necessarily moral so you should assume he's testing his boundaries. More particularly testing you. I assume it's nothing against you; his surival brain just wants to know what works in your tribe versus what doesn't. If you give your boy rewards for tantrums you are promoting as a successful survival strategy. Of course if you see an obvious problem (like assuming you withhold food as a punishment and now he's starving) then you have to concede in order to keep your son alive. However I'm somewhat confident that your son will biologically get the signals of how to behave based on what behavior works. In fact I'd suggest giving your younger son rewards or slightly bigger shares for behaving well as a demonstration of what works to your older boy. In this way you'll probably nip your younger son's potential for tantrums in the bud.

I'm sure this will lead to sibling rivalry but rivalry can be very healthy so long as there is a distinction between rivals and enemies. Rivals are generally friendly and competitive. There's definitely the importance of being brothers to teach when they're older but for now I think the best solution to tantrums is to demonstrate to your children actions have consequences. Not through spanking but rather withholding of loving acts or food or playtime. Something. However again I don't know for sure and these boys are like baby-toddler aged so my idea might be too extreme for them while it might be far more reasonable for younger to older children.

[Jsbrads]

Well to be honest I don’t know children that well, but soothing your boy when he behaves badly sounds similar to what one shouldn’t do with dogs.

A woman who lives near me (invited me to dinner a couple times, but I stopped when I realized she was torturing her dog) would sooth the dog when the dog would bark or growl, reinforcing this behavior and increasing the prevalence of that action. Seems bad for her, right? Yes, but it is worse for the dog, because the dog experiences and elevated anxiety when it barks, so the dog was being trained to experience anxiety constantly... I doubt your boy enjoys crying.

I don’t know what the fix is, but now that he is above 2, he needs to get on the right track and then I recall from Peterson, certainly by 4, that when the child misbehaves, sit him down and explain to him he can rejoin you when he gains control of himself. And watch him carefully so you can reinforce minimal progression toward the correct goal. 

[neeeel]

I dont think that Jsbrads advice is that great, to be honest. I dont think that petersens idea , which is basically a time out in different guise, is very peaceful. 

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"If I were doing it right, there wouldnt be these issues"

. Not sure thats true, given what you have told about the first year or so of his life. 

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"I’m heartsick and depressed at any conflict with my son"

What you describe in the OP ( when he has the meltdown) doesnt sound like a conflict, unless you left something out?

This also sounds like your issue, rather than your sons, so the sooner you can get therapy, the better it will be, I think. If we have grown up being squashed at any conflict, or not being taught how to negotiate conflicts peacefully, then its going to be very difficult for us to do it when we are parents.

 

If I had to guess, your oldest was jealous of the youngest climbing on you, and thats why the meltdown occurred. Im not sure the aim should be to stop the tantrums, but to rather support him through them, and explore with him what was going on, afterwards. Is he able to articulate his thoughts and feelings afterwards?

Edit to add: also check, was he tired, or hungry? I would guess 4:30 is right in the zone where a tiring day can hit you?

[S1988]

Neeeel may be right that there could be some jealousy going on. Positive Discipline expert Jane Nelsen uses the term "dethroned" to describe how an older child is feeling, meaning that your son thinks that his younger brother took his place as your special child. Though I'm not a parent myself, I read a bit about Nelsen's ideas mainly because I was relieved that there were better ways to raise a child, especially compared to how I was raised. Perhaps you can purchase Positive Discipline the First Three Years to learn more since your sons are in that age group. 

[AMR]

Did he not nap on the day you were exploring together? Being over tired can cause anyone to be upset. Jealousy was probably involved too.

I think with the food throwing issue, is by asking him not to throw his food before sitting down you put the idea in his head to throw the food. He is two so I don't think he is at the point where he has good enough control of his impulses, at this point when he is throwing the food it might be better to just take the food away and give him a bite at a time and try to distract him and redirect his attention to something else. You can say "we have manners at the table and act proper" or something to show him it is not ok and eventually will be enforced.  

I think you might be expecting too much out of him developmentally. There will be break downs and it is always good to comfort an upset child, he is not a dog and behaviorism on humans doesn't have as good of outcomes because there is a more complicated relationship involved. Now if you are only giving your child attention when he is throwing a fit this can devolve into the dog barking constantly to get what he wants. But being present as much as possible for your child and understanding where they are developmentally will help your relationship. 

[AMR]

Your 25 month old can't tell you that he feels upset and scared that he is getting less of your attention and you are starting to treat the baby more like you treat him than just a "baby". So he is going to act out by throwing food and "being naughty" to get attention, distracting him with his favorite game or singing a song he likes isn't going to cause him to throw food for the rest of his life. He is not trying to make you upset or even mess up the floor of your dining room, he is exploring his environment and possibly looking for attention and connection. 

They call it terrible twos for a reason, they have new emotions and ideas about life that they are just starting to understand and do not know to express on adult terms. 

If there is a chronic throwing food issue you might have to look harder at what is going on before, after and during the feeding that is causing him to repeat this behavior. One thing you can try is feeding him at a slightly different time and different place to get him out of the environment where he has developed a habit of throwing food. This is behaviorist thinking, but it doesn't make the child feel like he is not getting his needs met because it is not withholding love and affection.

[Elizbaeth]

 

 

On 2/23/2018 at 10:44 AM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Parenting is not something to be wrong about.

Right. I often worry that even my small actions will have huge ramifications. I can get extremely anxious about this. 

On 2/23/2018 at 10:44 AM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

In fact I'd suggest giving your younger son rewards or slightly bigger shares for behaving well as a demonstration of what works to your older boy.

My doesn’t eat solids yet. 

I have actually been putting a lot of effort into easing any feelings of rivalry and jealousy. They’re both so extremely young... maybe that would be a good idea when they’re 10-12 years old, but I want to first see a solidly established friendship between them. 

 

@AMR He is chronically tired. He fights naps and bed time pretty hard - I think he had a difficult time shutting off his brain so he had a hard time relaxing and winding down - and we’re often holding no-nap meltdowns at bay. Since I posted this I started giving him “quiet time” where he plays with his stuffed animals and a couple of toys on his crib, and he’s been falling asleep after he plays for 20-30 min. 

 

On 2/25/2018 at 12:08 PM, neeeel said:

What you describe in the OP ( when he has the meltdown) doesnt sound like a conflict, unless you left something out?

This also sounds like your issue, rather than your sons, so the sooner you can get therapy, the better it will be, I think. If we have grown up being squashed at any conflict, or not being taught how to negotiate conflicts peacefully, then its going to be very difficult for us to do it when we are parents.

Since I posted I’ve thought a lot about this and I think you’re right. It felt like a huge conflict to me. I feel extreme anxiety when my kids cry and think it is my issue, rather than my son’s. I was not allowed to show any emotions other than positive ones, and I think at times - especially if I’m low on sleep or not tuned into myself well, either - I think I’m responsible for the emotions of everyone in my house, and if they’re unhappy I must have caused it and I must fix it. 

On 2/25/2018 at 9:11 PM, AMR said:

think with the food throwing issue, is by asking him not to throw his food before sitting down you put the idea in his head to throw the food. He is two so I don't think he is at the point where he has good enough control of his impulses, at this point when he is throwing the food it might be better to just take the food away and give him a bite at a time and try to distract him and redirect his attention to something else.

I was thinking about what happened and I think where I went wrong was not removing the impulse temptation before it became a “thing.” He has thrown food during meal time the past few days, so I thought I needed to make a point, but what happened was it ended up being a power struggle and a battle of wills, and that was what felt so horrible about it. Plus, I was trying to wait him out, and he ended up crying while upset for nearnly an hour, at which point I think he didn’t even know what my original point was, and was just overly upset, so I decided to end my standoff and just hug him. I think he would have gotten the message that I didn’t like him throwing food by me simply removing the food, and it would not have lead to a clash of wills and a win-lose scenario.

On 2/25/2018 at 9:38 PM, AMR said:

They call it terrible twos for a reason, they have new emotions and ideas about life that they are just starting to understand and do not know to express on adult terms.

I think this is very true. I can see him get frustrated and blow up because he can’t figure out some intricate maneuver and he can’t tell me what he wants, so I’ve been really focusing on talking with him and trying to walk him through how to properly problem solve (the 2 year old edition) and what to do if he’s frustrated and showing him how I feel and putting words to it. 

Thanks guys! 

 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

44 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

Right. I often worry that even my small actions will have huge ramifications. I can get extremely anxious about this. 

Understandably. You cannot fail. It's not permanent but every one step backwards would need a hundred steps forward to reclaim. Thus take anything I say now with a grain of salt until someone more qualified coincides with me.

44 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

My doesn’t eat solids yet. 

I have actually been putting a lot of effort into easing any feelings of rivalry and jealousy. They’re both so extremely young... maybe that would be a good idea when they’re 10-12 years old, but I want to first see a solidly established friendship between them. 

Remember you are female and we are male. Rivalry to us isn't bitter or underhanded but open and joyful. It's natural for all males to compete; the difference is whether we compete virtuously (unwritten code of conduct and standards versus cannibalization) or not. I think if you want to teach "actions have consequences" and also in general that being good pays off, it's natural to favor the better acting with more good and less bad to inspire the other to outdo the first. It's not a moral lesson (because it's based on incentives) but it's a practical lesson that could be made moral when they're capable of reasoning it. 

Encouraging friendly rivalry I think is good because they are male and therefore they wish to compete and outdo each other naturally. To men: conflict =/=war rather a break from the boring peace. Brothers (when raised well) stand together when an outside threat emerges but in a time of peace are likely to compete to both maintain each other's metal and alleviate boredom (and at some point probably compete for women and resources, both against each other and less friendly rivals from outside the family).

[Siegfried von Walheim]

52 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

I think this is very true. I can see him get frustrated and blow up because he can’t figure out some intricate maneuver and he can’t tell me what he wants, so I’ve been really focusing on talking with him and trying to walk him through how to properly problem solve (the 2 year old edition) and what to do if he’s frustrated and showing him how I feel and putting words to it. 

Note: Stefpai said his own daughter had no "terrible twos"; perhaps you really did something wrong, you did mention months ago you weren't redpilled and wise before you were pregnant and married (I think). 

However like the others (and yourself) said you might be making a bigger deal than it is. I think the best way to show disapproval to a little one is simply to remove what the little one's causing trouble with and ignore pleads for its return until the little one behaves. 

And chances are the little one might not even care or realize what is wrong unless given a visual picture of "if I throw food bits I don't get to eat food bits". 

[Elizbaeth]

Update for everyone:

 

I made some changes to his napping routine and it has made a WORLD of difference. There are hardly ever any meltdowns or tantrums now. They only happen if we have been out too long and he is hungry or we are pushing too close to nap time. Our interactions are untold times better and so pleasant and fun now. My poor child was probably just terribly sleep deprived. 

[Troubador]

I'm arguably in a worse position than you in that I'm a single parent, single father, shared contact so I am unable to control my son's routine 100%, but I was rather lucky and had pretty much day to day care of him as a baby and as a toddler, and like Stef I can report nothing remotely similar to the terrible twos (he's now five!).

I see you have it covered, and would have bet a pound to a penny it was overtiredness, so great job figuring that out. What I wanted to zero in on is your colossal sense of guilt. I'm not saying don't feel a sense a sense of responsibility for past mistakes, of course you should! However when the children are awake make sure you keep your parenting hat on, save critical analysis for when they are in bed and sleeping. I mean obviously take notes and such, but when your children are awake now is prime time for positive thinking and reinforcement, both for your children and for yourself and your husband.

As for tantrums what I'm picking up on is a jealousy in the older one for the attention lavished on the younger (which is only natural they are still a baby!), although exacerbated by the tiredness. What I'd suggest is establish the concept of team work with your oldest. Find a simple chore to do and ask for your oldest to help as you are a team. This will mean things will take twice as long, but the object of the excercise is to establish the team concept with your eldest. Praise him, and thank him as you go and remark on what a great time you are having together, then establish simple and supervised tasks relating to the care of the youngest. Make him feel part of the circle of you and your husband taking care of the new baby, then you'll encourage him to be part of the caregiving team and not that his younger sibling is in direct competition for your attention.

I've had cause to care for my niece and nephew whilst looking after my son and as much as I love my niece and nephew greatly my son has never exhibited any jealousy, as we have done things as a team, and he knows 100% that his bond with me is secure and strong, and in fact they all play together remarkably well! It is quite a joy to watch! Best of luck!!

[Elizbaeth]

On 3/23/2018 at 11:39 PM, Troubador said:

What I wanted to zero in on is your colossal sense of guilt.

Thanks for your response! I do really have to watch myself. I think one of my worst vices is a tendency to wallow in guilt. Not sure why I do. It makes me miserable, but I sometimes feel compulsively guilty. Like if someone I barely know is upset, I feel responsible and guilty. It is something I’ve been trying to figure out and then fix. 

 

On 3/23/2018 at 11:39 PM, Troubador said:

. This will mean things will take twice as long, but the object of the excercise is to establish the team concept with your eldest. Praise him, and thank him as you go and remark on what a great time you are having together, then establish simple and supervised tasks relating to the care of the youngest. Make him feel part of the circle of you and your husband taking care of the new baby, then you'll encourage him to be part of the caregiving team and not that his younger sibling is in direct competition for your attention.

Thank you! This is wonderful advice. I have been doing this for a while now and things are much easier. My oldest seems to have accepted my youngest as a part of the package and only seems jealous at rate times, and mostly over favorite toys. 

 

Good of luck to you, too! I do have sympathy for you being a single dad, and hope you have people around you trying to help you and build you up.