When are you wrong when trying to force your views into others? Or even should you?

[FutureBankRobber]

I'm a 24 yo man living with my girlfriend. We've been living together for the past 5 years or so and it's been the best time of my life. But I think I'm growing a little used to it, because things that wouldn't bother me some years ago now do. For example: my lady is very, very lazy. Not so lazy that the house is in complete chaos, but lazy to never leave for work on time. But here's the catch: I take her to work. I'm always prepared ahead of time and just waiting for her to say "let's go" and drive her there. For the past year or so she's been consistently late for work, about 95% of time. That in itself wouldn't bother me, but every time she says she's going to be on time, but on the next day she's lazily browsing her phone on the couch and doing things in the last possible moment.

This drives me to the fucking wall. I was never a organized person, but now that I pay my own rent and everything in this house we bought together, I like keeping things more tidy than messy. I got a bad temper but great self control. I've never once yelled and we never, never had a shouting match or anything of sorts. We always talks things out, or if I'm too pissed to talk I'll minimize contact for a while (not talking a lot and not giving much attention) until I'm calm. The worst it got was when I got mad for two whole days. The laziness didn't used to bother me that much, but my reaction to it escalated when we were running our little Easter business. I made the chocolate, she would make the filling. I can do the filling, but doing the chocolate is hard enough and I got no touch for making it pretty. She left every single one of our orders to the last possible minute, which overall made their quality worse. I wasn't satisfied with a single one of them compared to the last year (we've been doing this for the past 3 years) and told her so. She apologized and promised to not to this again next year.

Which is fair. What else can I do, right? It's not like showing how god damn angry I actually am would make any difference.

Which now brings us to her consistently being late to work, despite me, the person who takes her there, being ready on time everyday. I don't understand why does this bothers me so much. It's her work, I got nothing to do with it. The payment still comes in full, because she makes up the hours, so for all intents and purposes it doesn't affect anyone. Her boss doesn't like it, but it's such a small deal that he won't fire her, specially because she's his best employee. Can someone relate to this? Why does this bother me?

[Siegfried von Walheim]

You're facing a series of rather obvious shit tests. Stop being a beta and tell her to get her act together or you're leaving. Don't do her any favors or gift her anything because she owes you a large debt and she's well aware of it and wondering if you're man enough to collect.

She'll be far more empathetic and caring once she actually respects you. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Siegfried von Walheim

[Siegfried von Walheim]

42 minutes ago, FutureBankRobber said:

Which is fair. What else can I do, right? It's not like showing how god damn angry I actually am would make any difference.

It would. Do it.

[S1988]

Is there public transportation where you live? Perhaps, she can utilize that instead of always depending on you. After all, you're her boyfriend, not her parent. And, if she refuses to take the bus (assuming there is one nearby), let her suffer the consequences of her actions. She an adult and should act and be treated like one. Maybe you two can also get couples counseling to try to fix things between you two. 

[RichardY]

When are you wrong when trying to force your views into others? Or even should you?

Always. Assumes a position of weakness.

Anger is good when it is moderated, and integrated into a larger vision( perhaps articulating that would be important). Highly conscientious people tend to get angry when things are not done when they specify, or when they're not working at something. A good source of power, though imo can lead to fastidiousness in excess. 

[FutureBankRobber]

2 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

It would. Do it.

I failed to mentioned, but I have expressed how angry or upset I was at certain behaviors and she is improving on some of them.

2 hours ago, S1988 said:

Is there public transportation where you live? Perhaps, she can utilize that instead of always depending on you. After all, you're her boyfriend, not her parent. And, if she refuses to take the bus (assuming there is one nearby), let her suffer the consequences of her actions. She an adult and should act and be treated like one. Maybe you two can also get couples counseling to try to fix things between you two. 

Guys, please, no PUA here. From a rational stand point, please. She's my partner and I intend to live with her until death do us part. I don't believe they're shit test because she do everything that I tell her to, although she usually takes her time. I don't know if it's right to expect other people to do what you tell them when you tell them, maybe they like taking their time.

I may be the one doing the driving, but we share our money and everything I have is half her's. Since I work at home, this doesn't affects my routine, this affect hers and her responsibility as a person. The effect on her income is zero, but I'm asking if it's fair to have her do things her own way instead of mine. Specially when it doesn't directly relates to me, but just annoys me for some reason I can't explain rationally.

 

[FutureBankRobber]

2 hours ago, S1988 said:

Is there public transportation where you live? Perhaps, she can utilize that instead of always depending on you. After all, you're her boyfriend, not her parent. And, if she refuses to take the bus (assuming there is one nearby), let her suffer the consequences of her actions. She an adult and should act and be treated like one. Maybe you two can also get couples counseling to try to fix things between you two. 

And, somewhat yes. There is public transportation, but she would've to walk 1 km to get to it. The whole trajectory is 3km.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

58 minutes ago, FutureBankRobber said:

I failed to mentioned, but I have expressed how angry or upset I was at certain behaviors and she is improving on some of them.

Expressed calmly=/= being emotionally vivid and for real. Shouting and being firm =/= being sophistic, namecalling, ad hominems, etc. 

Quote

Guys, please, no PUA here. From a rational stand point, please. She's my partner and I intend to live with her until death do us part. I don't believe they're shit test because she do everything that I tell her to, although she usually takes her time. I don't know if it's right to expect other people to do what you tell them when you tell them, maybe they like taking their time.

She's signaling some serious red flags and clearly is testing you as a man. You can ignore at your own peril but you either have to put your foot down and be a man or expect to be cuckholded/divorced (I know you aren't married but you are kind of living like a married couple so bare with me on the terminology). 

And I'm not PUA. I'm a good Catholic boy and all that. But I would take the PUA's seriously because even though they tend to hit the slummy side of town they still have far more understanding of gender relations than most people do. And it doesn't take a PUA to figure out that women like to subtly test their men to see if they're worth breeding with. 

And if I were a woman I'd be cheating the crap on you for not calling me out on my B.S., not being emotionally present (you said you didn't scream, yell, etc. etc. to imply your anger so I assume you did the calm, teacher voice with her which I would take as patronizing), and worst of all not punishing me for my willfully bad behavior. I would most definitely not bare you babies let alone raise them. Especially if I am the breadwinner (do you work? I assume you don't because you didn't mention you driving her late making you late for work) and having to rely on you to be the stay at home dad. I want a MAN raising my kids, not a boy. 

Now, I get I'm being blunt and probably hurtful, but you got to see it from a woman's perspective. You're reeking of beta and that is the female equivalent to, as a man, having a woman that flirts with random men, burps, and acts all kinds of viscerally gross. Note that where men tend to value reasoned words, women tend to value primal emotions. We have different brains and therefore weigh communication methods differently... 

So saying you're upset is nowhere near the same thing as clearly expressing anger and frustration. 

Quote

I may be the one doing the driving, but we share our money and everything I have is half her's. Since I work at home, this doesn't affects my routine, this affect hers and her responsibility as a person. The effect on her income is zero, but I'm asking if it's fair to have her do things her own way instead of mine. Specially when it doesn't directly relates to me, but just annoys me for some reason I can't explain rationally.

So she gets 75% of what you and her make combined? (I guess I this part answers my above question). That's not fair by any means and surely she knows this and is getting secretly pissed that her man, that she's known since age 19 (5 years you said) at least, is basically just a worker bee without a will of his own.

Come on man; I used to walk a mile to work everyday and I got used to it (and eventually did better things working at home), it's not that hard. She's a big girl and can handle herself. She doesn't need you to drive her and you shouldn't drive her if she takes your service for granted by making you wait all the time. You're just proving to her you're a utility, not a person. And that's a huge red flag for a woman. 

Now, I don't know if she's the one for you, but assuming she is you have to man up or expect all kinds of shit when you get older (or in the next few years once her desire to have kids really hits and she begins to wonder whether you're father-material or still a high school kid just aged 30).

And ultimately I think the big shit test is "will this guy keep taking me to work if I keep making him wait?" and you are failing that one Big League. It's never JUST about being a taxi cab versus a helpful husband. It's simultaneously about whether you can be competitive, committed, have integrity, or if you'll be a pushover and subject to the most dominant will in the room. And you're signaling the latter by not giving her real consequences for her actions.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Siegfried von Walheim
Clarification edits

[MercurySunlight]

One thing I've found to be helpful when dealing with either my own or another person's behavior, is to look at it as a symptom of an underlying issue and part of a larger picture.

In this case, it might be helpful to do a search regarding "the psychology of procrastination".

From what I've read, there can be various sides to this issue. One has to do with how procrastination affects us personally. The other has to do with how it affects those around us.

 

[FutureBankRobber]

1 hour ago, MercurySunlight said:

One thing I've found to be helpful when dealing with either my own or another person's behavior, is to look at it as a symptom of an underlying issue and part of a larger picture.

In this case, it might be helpful to do a search regarding "the psychology of procrastination".

From what I've read, there can be various sides to this issue. One has to do with how procrastination affects us personally. The other has to do with how it affects those around us.

 

That is very interesting and I certainly will look into it. Do you have any specific book/author do indicate?

[Boss]

There is no point in being angry if you freely decided to do it and especially when you continually decide to do it. Like if drinking prune juice angers me, I won't drink it and I especially won't continually drink it

But everything you choose to do, you want to do. If you didn't want to do it, you wouldn't do it.

You must feel like this is something you need to do, which is a lie. You don't need to do this. You can stop doing anything you chose to do in the past, today. Or you can continue doing what you like freely. 

Maybe you need to refresh why you like doing what you are doing. Or maybe you just found out you don't want to do something any longer. You will find that out by the actions you freely decide to continually make. 

This message applies to yourself and your girlfriend when it comes to laziness and anger on things you choose to do.

Do you get it? You don't need to drive her, she doesn't need to work. you don't need to work, you don't need to do anything. Now obviously there are consequences. But if you want those consequences more, then so what. Take what you want, and pay for it. 

I have hired a few lazy/angry employees, and a big part of their laziness/anger is them feeling like they need to do this. But they don't need to do anything. Its like they are filling and carrying a bag with bricks. and for what? take off the backpack filled with need and do what you want freely. 

I was and also hired happy employees(granted happier on payday lol) but work can be fun and challenging but even if it isn't, it is a way to earn money so we can buy things we want or provide for the family, etc 

This reminds me of the saying and I hope it can be helpful in wrapping this up "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change" 

[barn]

Hi @FutureBankRobber

How have you been? Good to see you back!

Sorry for the situation, I can totally relate, something similar has already happened to me but but rather than telling an anecdote let me mention a few things to think about. It's great and I'm really happy that so many people are trying to give you advice/their take on it, hopefully some of the things here will induce an improvement or get you to the next level of solving things.

*

'0' argument.: People rarely change and if they do, it's usually due to some emergency, finally strong enough incentives. Unless it's internalised and conscious, reverting to the old ways is more than likely to be the case within a short period of time.

(as in: having principles and keeping to them [integrity] is haaard to reach, much harder to maintain. Beware of the ones not having any!)

1. Procrastination is an important effect, should be explored as it is usually closely related with 'going out of our comfort zones' / 're-establishing', re-evaluation, changing the way we are. There must be curiosity or else it won't change, you can bend over backward if the other person isn't 'digging' there can't be much progress made.

(as in: Is there evidence of trying to overcome something, proof of effort in order to improve anything?)

2. What are we saying when we allow ourselves to be late?

It's like: - 'I don't respect you enough to care. You aren't as valuable to me.'

Being late from a meeting for example means, you don't value/respect the other people's effort, time they carve out for you because if it was important enough for you, you wouldn't be wasteful. You wouldn't risk them turning around and saying: ' A'right, guess I was too kind, better curb that!'

More importantly, it speaks to lack of self-respect, not taking your own promises/asks seriously.

(as in: 'I say that, but it doesn't mean anything solid or serious.')

It can be a powerplay too, expressing something along the line of 'You don’t have the last say, I do!' (as in: 'It is difficult for me to tell you then and there when I disagree... must reserve the option to change post-decision.'

3. BNAP (Bullshit Non Apology).

Un-internalised errors, lack of true apology is promising repetition for the future.

examples of a...

bad apology: ' I'm so sorry, I didn't know... I didn't want to... I didn't do it on purpose... variations.'

much better:  ' I see. You didn't like that because...? Right. Sorry, I was... ,what do you think?  How about if I... and maybe you... ? Deal?... Thank you, I really appreciate you telling me all of that. Can we speak again if something is up?'

If we aren't close enough with someone and we don't want to be honest, we can say things just in order to escape a confrontation with what sounds good to the ears of the other, when directly called out for a thing we had done wrong or is the centre of attention. BNAP. It looks like we care and we want to be constructive... only it isn't true, disingenuous. There's no real 'connecting' with what's at hand and things will escalate as there's no release of true tensions, no learning and no aiming to change future behaviour... It's like: putting out a small fire in the immediate proximity while at the back the flames are growing at an increasing pace, freely. No-one knows where or when will the next fire start... UNCERTAINTY.

4. Laziness is avoidance, allowing others to do things for us is trying to transfer responsibility. Using, not trading. One direction only, is the flow of 'energies'.

 

If we depend on someone, it's seemingly logical to assume that when bad things happen we weren't instrumental, there's an illusory 'buffer' and we don't need to take agency... not true. It falsely makes the other person believe that the anxiety they're experiencing is their own, when it's only our own projection and we made them take it upon them.

If we realise others are suffering because of our actions... We can choose to change it, or not. Seeking independence to not affect the other or keeping up with the 'game' either way we are sending a powerful message about our appreciation for the dynamic.

(as in:  'Sorry, I can't hear what you are saying from your actions; what you are actually DOING!')

5. There are ALWAYS consequences to every action. Ignoring, minimising is the worst possible way to go as it will only lead to catastrophic outcomes a lot faster, regardless if we believe it or not. Ignoring a ticking time-bomb won't make it stop, it IS going to speed it up instead, contrary to logic... in human relationships that is.

(as in: WHAT we ALLOW we NORMALISE!!!  -  the single most important message I hope to transmit to you  @FutureBankRobber

)

Passivity in problem solving means, the problems get to be solved without our input/participation and more often than not it's something that we don't benefit from, usually even gaining new problems as a result.

Many people, ... maaany people will go with the 'easy' route of having others figure out how things should be. Who benefits, what? Who doesn't mind being cared for and who wishes to stand on their own two feet?...

Hope that helps,

Barnsley

Edited April 26, 2018 by barn
Xtndd

[FutureBankRobber]

On 4/25/2018 at 7:27 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

[...]

I was typing a long response to your post, but the way you try to argue by fortune telling and making assumptions instead of questions pisses me off to no end. Please don't post on my thread again.

 

On 4/26/2018 at 2:24 AM, Boss said:

There is no point in being angry if you freely decided to do it and especially when you continually decide to do it. Like if drinking prune juice angers me, I won't drink it and I especially won't continually drink it

[...]

This reminds me of the saying and I hope it can be helpful in wrapping this up "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change" 

I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly. I very much like driving her too work. It doesn't make any difference what time we leave. And, well, we can try and argue semantics on what do we mean by "choosing to be angry/lazy" but I don't think it's productive. Not like I disagree with you, I actually agree, but defining "need" as this kind of absolute compulsory force seems kinda futile. Yes, she chooses to be late and I choose to be angry, but only insofar as we are doing these things and may not be aware of the reasons. At the end of the day, this doesn't change anything nor does it helps my understanding of the topic hand.

On 4/26/2018 at 6:55 AM, barn said:

Hi @FutureBankRobber

How have you been? Good to see you back!

[...]

Hope that helps,

Barnsley

I am very glad that you remember me, it makes me happy. I certainly wouldn't mind a anecdote. But, I'll try and explain why I don't think she's using any of these "tactics".  Every time I confront her about her being late to work, she genuinely apologies and maybe for five days she'll be up on time. This week, for example, we got 4/6 for now for being on time. It's just that eventually she'll be late again. It's the same job for the past two years. I've began working at home for the last 7 months and spent about 3 months formally unemployed prior (working side jobs). Been driving her since.

The consequence part is what gets me confused. You see, she being late doesn't affect me in any way imaginable. It just pisses me off how she thinks nothing of it. But I don't know why it does! So, why should I impose some kind of consequence for something that has no real and rational based effect on me? You see, I try to be rational on everything that I do. And punishing her for something that affects me for no reason at all doesn't seem fair. 

I forgot to mention something, well I just remembered. We wake up late on most days (around noon). She usually rise a little earlier than me (maybe an hour or two at most). About two years ago I worked through the night. When I woke up she was gone, when she got home we had about an hour together before I left for work. But not always. Sometimes I would get up early for whatever reason and on those days she left late for work, and not uncommonly called her boss telling she was going to be late. When I asked why she always left late for work , she said that she was never late for work. It's just that she wanted to spend more time with me, and since me being up early was rare, she tried to squeeze more time.

Well, just typing this last paragraph just got me a little sad. 

Edited April 28, 2018 by FutureBankRobber
I quoted the post which I had already quoted. Plus some further clarifying.

[barn]

Hello,

23 hours ago, FutureBankRobber said:

I certainly wouldn't mind a anecdote.

As you wish (re: my earlier points in 0., 2., 3., 5.):

'Before many a red pills, in the past-past... My gf then would have family, friends over with no notice whatsoever. My preference has always been is that people must let me know in advance whenever they're coming to visit me, if that's possible. A simple: 'So and so is coming over on _day, ok?!' to which I normally say 'yes' to.

Now I can't stop thinking about Vogons "... without an order, signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters."

Hahaha

sorry(reference)... So, as you can imagine I was flipping out most times when someone would knock, press the buzzer, call to have the door opened/the garage door prepped as they're arriving in MINUTES and I was not expecting them!

When I brought it up, it perplexed her to the point that she'd ask me things like: 'Is it, that you don't want to meet them?' - to which I would repeat myself again (I try to reason when expressing discontent) saying stuff along the lines of preferring to prepare the place, having the option to decline/re-schedule if something was more important; boundaries in general. She then seemingly understood, apologised and vowed to do differently. Or so I thought. It wouldn't happen as often as before but it still did, and each time it was sort of handled from her side with an excuse, coupled with a new promise to change. After a while, upon the same thing happening yet again, I got very upset and it didn't help her calling me 'fussy' for 'still' having this as a thing of importance. I can be fussy at times, sure. Having known that, it was clearly for a different reason my blood-pressure shot up... It dawned on me, she had not internalised the whole thing when I first brought it up and ever since it was applied partially/incorrectly... or not at all? That, in reality she didn't respect my preferences enough to see her promises being fulfilled, reflecting what we had seemingly agreed on, back then? Maybe she disagreed all this time, but then why wouldn't she ask me to try and find another alternative solution together? I love her, I'd be more than motivated to help as much as I could, why not accept my help? Was she trying to have me grow tired of sticking to my preference and finally give in? If so, was it conscious for her? What is going on here? Why didn't/couldn't we deal with this earlier? Who's avoiding, what?

We had a big talk, agreed(yet again),for a while things seemed rosey... a month or two went by and it started happening again... I now know it was silly from me but I literally spoke with the visitor this time in front of her. It was in a friendly/neutral manner, asking the person to let me know in the future because my gf didn't want to and it's because I would be more comfortable if I had the opportunity to properly welcome any visitor when they wished to come over.

Obviously she was upset, angry even but it hasn't happened afterwards.

Don't do what I did, it's not good! (at least I should have told her, this was going to happen if she wasn't going to... but even then it wouldn't have been ideal)

Maybe necessary in certain circumstances(defense), but definitely avoidable and very well should be. I got what I wanted (not really) but not because she agreed or respected it, instead she feared the consequences of me 'making a scene'(as in: assertiveness). As a result in that situation, the distance grew between us. Not good.'

On 04/28/2018 at 9:44 AM, FutureBankRobber said:

But, I'll try and explain why I don't think she's using any of these "tactics". 

Hmm... I simply don't have enough information to know whether "tactics" could be at hand, that's why I had stayed away from implying that it's what she is/was doing. I wrote about people in general, not specifically about her.

'these'... pretty broad, right?! It's ok, just letting you know I noticed.

On 04/28/2018 at 9:44 AM, FutureBankRobber said:

Every time I confront her about her being late to work, she genuinely apologies and maybe for five days she'll be up on time. [...] It's just that eventually she'll be late again. [...] for the last 7 months [...] Been driving her since.

So if I'm accurately grasping things here, it's been up in the air for you for the last 7 months? (maybe it didn't bother you as much in the beginning)

Is it true, that if she found the right solution it wouldn't happen again, not return 'eventually'? As an added bonus she wouldn't have to apologise and feel bad each time she broke her promises.

On 04/28/2018 at 9:44 AM, FutureBankRobber said:

The consequence part is what gets me confused. You see, she being late doesn't affect me in any way imaginable.

Is it possible that it did? How do you know?

I'm doubtful that your statement is accurate because logically then it should not affect you, you shouldn't be

On 04/28/2018 at 9:44 AM, FutureBankRobber said:

It just pisses me off how she thinks nothing of it.

Um... mixed message?

On 04/28/2018 at 9:44 AM, FutureBankRobber said:

And punishing her for something that affects me for no reason at all doesn't seem fair. 

Oh, I got this 'uneasy' part...

Of course you don't punish her. Nor do you manipulate, blackmail, withold love... etc. things without genuine care and understanding should be discarded immediately if your aim is true.

Think of this.

A.   Does a customer refuse to run a business by being a customer? Does a customer worry about how much the business makes as long as the price and quality of the product is worth buying? - No and no. The two don't need to do more than what their separate roles are.

What would you think of a person who was just a customer of a business, buying products on a regular basis and when you met him, he'd say:

- 'It drives me craaazy, how the management is allowing for the phone in the office to ring all-day long!!! Man, do you know how many potential customers they could be missing out on? If they only just picked up a third of the calls...'

B.  Now, imagine the same business but the person who was complaining was a client, an associate in the same business.

How would you assess the two different types of relationships? What are the differences?

On 04/28/2018 at 9:44 AM, FutureBankRobber said:

It's just that she wanted to spend more time with me, and since me being up early was rare, she tried to squeeze more time.

Well, just typing this last paragraph just got me a little sad. 

Not surprisingly, I would feel bad too if someone who I cared for told me they miss me and...

Has she told you this before? What if she hasn't, why?

as in: 'Hey, listen! I really feel that we don't spend enough time together, could we make it happen more often?'

Have you thought about that maybe you weren't spending enough time with her?

Any probable signs that could be attributed to this?

Thumbs up on your curiosity man!

[MercurySunlight]

On 4/25/2018 at 5:23 PM, FutureBankRobber said:

That is very interesting and I certainly will look into it. Do you have any specific book/author do indicate?

Here's one article: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/why-wait-the-science-behind-procrastination

There are a lot more out there. Personally, I usually do a lot of searches and explore different points of view when digging into behaviors. 

Humans are complex in their motivations. Sometimes, conflicts can be about control or rebellion against control. Hard to see the whole picture from an outsider's perspective.

You might want to look at your relationship as a whole to see what might be going on at a deeper level.