Aleks Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 Taking in consideration the reality of human nature, would it be accurate to say that collectivism is inherently authoritarian ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barn Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 (edited) Hi @Aleks Welcome to the board! 3 hours ago, Aleks said: Taking in consideration the reality of human nature, would it be accurate to say that collectivism is inherently authoritarian ? Just wanted to make sure I properly grasped your question: ° "reality" as in observation of whom, by what standards is it evaluated? i.e. - looking at the history of humanity and then painting with a broad brush to establish things like: tribalistic, preference to hierarchical, not afraid to be aggressive to horrendous extents... etc. And of that is bad, because NAP? ° "collectivism" as in a smaller set of people from a larger set of people, where individual freedom is thrown under the bus i.e. - inherently contradictory, because if an individual must sacrifice its freedom for the benefit of the collective, the whole can't gain the benefits of actions, that of an individual requiring personal freedom and therefore the collective will always be limited to the common lowest denominator. (I know I'm being a bit 'dense' here, does it make sense to you what I'm trying to say?) ° "inherently authoritarian" as in not sentient or simply deterministic or hardwired to negate reason & evidence? i.e. - expecting the capability to compare abstractions and then choose plan of actions based on objective standards would be 'plain nuts' if this was the case. Alternatively... (Sorry if I completely missed your meaning and 'butchering' your quote unfairly, certainly correct me...) "Taking in consideration the reality of bus timetables, would it be accurate to say that scheduling errors are inherent ?" Barnsley p.s. (Good question, nevertheless! An example to demonstrate the meaning would have made it even better imo.) Edited May 18, 2018 by barn grrrmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleks Posted May 18, 2018 Author Share Posted May 18, 2018 - yes - what do you mean by "common lowest denominator" ? Why would the collective care about personal freedom ? - as in always leading to authoritarian state of affairs (same way communism would always lead to the gulags), since reason & evidence is not and may be couldn't be universally accepted and understood p.s. I think the thing about communism I mentioned could be taken as example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barn Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, Aleks said: - yes - what do you mean by "common lowest denominator" ? Why would the collective care about personal freedom ? - as in always leading to authoritarian state of affairs (same way communism would always lead to the gulags), since reason & evidence is not and may be couldn't be universally accepted and understood Ah, ok. I mean, when appeasement is a virtue the most aggressive gets its way. I probably shouldn't have been so subtle, here, let let me ask directly: Do you see individuals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleks Posted May 18, 2018 Author Share Posted May 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, barn said: Ah, ok. I mean, when appeasement is a virtue the most aggressive gets its way. I probably shouldn't have been so subtle, here, let let me ask directly: Do you see individuals? You mean all the time even when I'm alone or philosophically ? Joking aside, I surely see individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barn Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Aleks said: You mean all the time even when I'm alone or philosophically ? Joking aside, I surely see individuals. Pst... I'm never alone, even when people can't see anyone else with me... That's all-right, funsies are cool. Anyhow... If you are seeing individuals, collectivism falls apart like a sugar-cube being dropped in a fine cuppa tea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardY Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 I think Agreeableness is correlated with Collectivism, as is Low Openness to Experience. The Nordic countries being low in Agreeableness and High in Openness, are Individualists. Compared to Collectivist Asian countries that are high in Agreeableness and low in Openness. Any authority in Individualist societies, are based on local competence. Collectivists, God Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardY Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 I think conscientiousness is also correlated to collectivism, as people seek to impose order, like the Germans.... Perhaps not so much now, as with all the "refugees" being let in, contributing to disorder, exploitation and crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirgall Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 Any system that can impose obligations without consent has an issue. How it deals with that issue is the interesting part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardY Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 Zulu Dawn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofd Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 Quote would it be accurate to say that collectivism is inherently authoritarian ? It's not inherently so, but all the societal organisations that have stood the test of time were either tribalistic or feudalistic with authoritarian in nature. Which should be no surprise to any observer, man being a political primate. Living together in small groups is coded into our DNA, the idea of individual freedom is too recent to have been a factor that was selected for or against. In other words, any organisation of eusocial omnivore mammals will be very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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