TheRedPanda Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 Hi! I have a problem with some of my friends. Or rather, they seem to have a problem with my husband. My husband is a very virtuous man with traditional values (as myself). Some of my friends have expressed worries that I am being opressed by my husband. This is of course nonsense, we do however, take on very tradtional roles in our marriage. This is of course on both of our initiative - it's not like he is "forcing" me to take good care of him - it's my choice. During our relationship I have actively worked on enhancing my feminine personality traits and qualities - which has made me a much much happier person than when I tried to enhance more masculine qualities. My husband's virtues are honesty, integrity, courage, strength and loyalty to friends and family. He is also one of the most non-feministic men I have ever met. I live in Sweden, so there are not a lot of them around. Lately, espesially one of my friends have expressed "concern" about me. She has had long talks to me several times about how I don't "need to" put up to oppression and that she is worried about me being with a sexist man. During these talks, I usually kindly tell her that I would never be with a person who oppresses me (I have very high integrity), and that my husband is not sexist - and provide her with proof and concrete examples. It's like talking to a brick wall. I am also quite sure that she is talking about this with other friends of mine. I should also mention that this behavior is exclusive to my friends of Swedish origin, and has caused me to distance myself from most of my Swedish friends. Today, I would estimate >90% of my friends are from Asia and Europe. Why do you think that a strong, traditional and virtuous man is causing this behavior among my friends? And why do you think me working on enhancing my feminine traits make them see me as becoming oppressed? And has any of you out there experienced similar things? I have my own theories, but I would be very thankful for your thoughts and opinions on this!
Carl Killough Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 It's easier for these 'friends' of yous to feel virtuous by denying the fact that you know something about your husband, your relationship, and the world than it is for them to deal with the fact that that accepting your side would mean a full re-evaluation of their world view. That's way too much chaos for most people to handle. So they will smudge the mirror you are holding up in their face to feel okay in the world.
Kohlrak Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 6 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: Hi! I have a problem with some of my friends. Or rather, they seem to have a problem with my husband. My husband is a very virtuous man with traditional values (as myself). Some of my friends have expressed worries that I am being opressed by my husband. This is of course nonsense, we do however, take on very tradtional roles in our marriage. This is of course on both of our initiative - it's not like he is "forcing" me to take good care of him - it's my choice. During our relationship I have actively worked on enhancing my feminine personality traits and qualities - which has made me a much much happier person than when I tried to enhance more masculine qualities. My husband's virtues are honesty, integrity, courage, strength and loyalty to friends and family. He is also one of the most non-feministic men I have ever met. I live in Sweden, so there are not a lot of them around. Lately, espesially one of my friends have expressed "concern" about me. She has had long talks to me several times about how I don't "need to" put up to oppression and that she is worried about me being with a sexist man. During these talks, I usually kindly tell her that I would never be with a person who oppresses me (I have very high integrity), and that my husband is not sexist - and provide her with proof and concrete examples. It's like talking to a brick wall. I am also quite sure that she is talking about this with other friends of mine. I should also mention that this behavior is exclusive to my friends of Swedish origin, and has caused me to distance myself from most of my Swedish friends. Today, I would estimate >90% of my friends are from Asia and Europe. Why do you think that a strong, traditional and virtuous man is causing this behavior among my friends? And why do you think me working on enhancing my feminine traits make them see me as becoming oppressed? And has any of you out there experienced similar things? I have my own theories, but I would be very thankful for your thoughts and opinions on this! I could think of a number of things. First thing to note is, men are physically strong and have a hierarchy, thus have a tendency to prefer settling disputes directly. Women, much the opposite. It doesn't always hold true (per situation, not per person), but Stefan has talked about this a few times, even. You must understand this to understand what i'm proposing next. 1. A hardcore femminist has their own worldview that men are better than women. By taking on your traditional roles, either you are, or you appear to be (to the feminist it doesn't matter, because in her eyes you actually are), letting that man have control over you while you sit there and say "yes, master" (regardless of whether this is only slightly in his favor, or if he has complete control). In this case, she's trying to protect you from him. 2. Like case 1, except because of her hatred and bias towards men, she can't enjoy that situation, even if she, herself, is into that sort of thing. In this case, she's not only jealous, but your happiness is in conflict with her world view, which means that everything she does to men is not only wrong, but she then has to admit to herself that she's been doing the wrong thing, and, depending on her age, it might be too late for her. 3. Maybe she wants what you have. She likes what she sees, and she likes the friendship, but "can't help herself." So perhaps she wants him out of the picture for self-control, or to take a shot at him herself. 4. Maybe she wants what he has. I've read articles about two different studies (yes, one of them was the pupil study, and the other i'm having trouble finding but i'd love to find it if you, by any chance, have any recollection of it, as i'd love to start that discussion here and/or elsewhere) that suggest that while homosexuality and heterosexuality are common among men (mostly heterosexuality), women have a tendency towards bisexuality (over heterosexuality). Personally, i think more studies should be done regarding this, especially as the sample size was relatively small for the kind of conclusion it came to (suggested there were no straight women), with only a couple hundred participants. However, regardless of the study, i'm sure if you have any friends who work night shift (since these women tend to be more open about it, from my experience) you'll probably see these numbers inflated enough to consider the possibility. 5. Maybe she just hates men and doesn't like seeing them happy. 6. Maybe there's a history (i highly recommend saving this conclusion for last, because both men and women [actually, contrary to popular belief, men are more susceptible to this than women] have a tendency to check this first, even though you can never really prove innocence, but only guilt, therefore putting this idea first will eat at you and your marriage). 7. Like 2, except you're happy. 8. Maybe, other than a history, knows something you don't. Beware this one, as well, because some people have a tendency to "know" things that they actually do not. She already has an inherent bias against men, as you admit by calling her a femminist. 9. Maybe she just wants to stir the pot because her life is boring, and by stirring the pot she can get people more interested in her to compensate for the lack of interest in her (as opposed to her body, assuming you come with the counter-argument that she gets plenty of male attention). I could probably go on if i sat and thought long enough. One of the many reasons for the roles we've traditionally had amongst our sexes was due to this tendency for indirect conflict with women (not to say this justifies things, as some men have the tendency as well, and plenty of women can be direct), because this sort of "poisonous" confrontation where people can't be direct with what their real beef is is absolutely destructive not just of the friendships but also the marriages, and sometimes it can have a domino effect into other peoples' lives. If at any point you feel this could get out of hand, do yourself, your husband, and perhaps your other friends a favor, and her a favor, too, by cutting her loose. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a great friendship for your own personal good. It's not just about your husband, it's about you too. She's not respecting your feelings, and this is indicative of a larger issue with the friendship.
barn Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 Hi @TheRedPanda Welcome to the board! Are you familiar with the fable of 'The scorpion and the frog/frog and the mouse'? Well, your account vaguely reminded me of that. Only just approximately because I found the descriptions general and broad. (Maybe it's a just me) Have you considered re-examining the/your definition of 'friend'? (because: What we normalise, we repeat.) What made you to settle for him, rather than anyone else in your environment? (because: if you knew, you'd have more information as to why others might be inconvenienced) Do you think, all feminist are the same? Are there virtuous feminists? (because: blanket terms are easy to cast, especially when objective observation is lacking) Barnsley
Dr. Dealgood Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 Like most feminists, your "friends" will only be happy when they have destroyed your world and turned it into a mirror of their own dystopian one. Are you happy in your relationship? Do you feel abused? It's funny but being male I have a hard time understanding women and your conversations. The scenario you describe would never happen among men I know. I am trying to imagine a scenario where any close friend of mine would have the effrontery to say to me that my partner was "oppressing" me and was a sexist. That level of brazen audacity and vileness would immediately end the friendship. It would be a GTFO of my house and never come back scenario. Now don't get me wrong. There is a place where friends should intervene but you don't sound like you are walking around with bruises and broken bones. At a minimum level, any friend worthy of that label should respect the choices of people you choose to partner with. If they don't like it then they should at least be polite and respectfully keep their distance. You definitely have a problem but it is not your husband. I'm curious to know why you have tolerated being interrogated about your choices by your "friends". Just who do they think they are? It's none of their business and you are foolish to enter into a discussion about it.
Kohlrak Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Dr. Dealgood said: Like most feminists, your "friends" will only be happy when they have destroyed your world and turned it into a mirror of their own dystopian one. Never attribute to malice what you can more easily attribute to stupidity. Feminists have an inherent bias that leads to ignorance. She may be otherwise smart, but she is clearly biased. My conclusions also attribute a potential malice, but it not necessarily be so. If she's not malicious, just stupid, the OP will see this and not see the wisdom in your other words, 'cause you're, at least in her mind, starting off on a false premise. She's coming here for help with her friend, so she naturally assumes her friend isn't out to get her. Propose possibilities, not guarantees. Through possibility, if her friend is malicious, she can still be saved. 15 minutes ago, Dr. Dealgood said: You definitely have a problem but it is not your husband. I'm curious to know why you have tolerated being interrogated about your choices by your "friends". Just who do they think they are? It's none of their business and you are foolish to enter into a discussion about it. Women do not think this way. She's clearly here asking about her friend, not her husband. She's not talking about her husband, really. she's talking about her friend. Keep your eye on the prize.
TheRedPanda Posted May 23, 2018 Author Posted May 23, 2018 43 minutes ago, barn said: Hi @TheRedPanda Welcome to the board! Are you familiar with the fable of 'The scorpion and the frog/frog and the mouse'? Well, your account vaguely reminded me of that. Only just approximately because I found the descriptions general and broad. (Maybe it's a just me) Have you considered re-examining the/your definition of 'friend'? (because: What we normalise, we repeat.) What made you to settle for him, rather than anyone else in your environment? (because: if you knew, you'd have more information as to why others might be inconvenienced) Do you think, all feminist are the same? Are there virtuous feminists? (because: blanket terms are easy to cast, especially when objective observation is lacking) Barnsley Hi Barnsley! I have absolutely redefined my definition of friend, and I should have mentioned that I have not spoken to her properly (just polite but empty chats very rarely) for about a year. Last I had proper contact with her was the time she called my husband a sexist. In the beginning I was very sad about the feeling of losing the friendship, then I was angry, but now I am mostly curious to why she changed her mind about me and him like this. What made me settle for my husband was mainly his virtues that I mentioned. I should also mention that the big majority of my friends really like him. It's the more feminist types that have problems with him, and me. I don't think all feminists are the same. I live in Sweden, where basically all women call themselves feminists, and I know a bunch who I believe are virtuous. In my view, many have just fallen for the propaganda of Good, or not thought through their feminist statements properly.
TheRedPanda Posted May 23, 2018 Author Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Kohlrak said: I could think of a number of things. First thing to note is, men are physically strong and have a hierarchy, thus have a tendency to prefer settling disputes directly. Women, much the opposite. It doesn't always hold true (per situation, not per person), but Stefan has talked about this a few times, even. You must understand this to understand what i'm proposing next. 1. A hardcore femminist has their own worldview that men are better than women. By taking on your traditional roles, either you are, or you appear to be (to the feminist it doesn't matter, because in her eyes you actually are), letting that man have control over you while you sit there and say "yes, master" (regardless of whether this is only slightly in his favor, or if he has complete control). In this case, she's trying to protect you from him. 2. Like case 1, except because of her hatred and bias towards men, she can't enjoy that situation, even if she, herself, is into that sort of thing. In this case, she's not only jealous, but your happiness is in conflict with her world view, which means that everything she does to men is not only wrong, but she then has to admit to herself that she's been doing the wrong thing, and, depending on her age, it might be too late for her. 3. Maybe she wants what you have. She likes what she sees, and she likes the friendship, but "can't help herself." So perhaps she wants him out of the picture for self-control, or to take a shot at him herself. 4. Maybe she wants what he has. I've read articles about two different studies (yes, one of them was the pupil study, and the other i'm having trouble finding but i'd love to find it if you, by any chance, have any recollection of it, as i'd love to start that discussion here and/or elsewhere) that suggest that while homosexuality and heterosexuality are common among men (mostly heterosexuality), women have a tendency towards bisexuality (over heterosexuality). Personally, i think more studies should be done regarding this, especially as the sample size was relatively small for the kind of conclusion it came to (suggested there were no straight women), with only a couple hundred participants. However, regardless of the study, i'm sure if you have any friends who work night shift (since these women tend to be more open about it, from my experience) you'll probably see these numbers inflated enough to consider the possibility. 5. Maybe she just hates men and doesn't like seeing them happy. 6. Maybe there's a history (i highly recommend saving this conclusion for last, because both men and women [actually, contrary to popular belief, men are more susceptible to this than women] have a tendency to check this first, even though you can never really prove innocence, but only guilt, therefore putting this idea first will eat at you and your marriage). 7. Like 2, except you're happy. 8. Maybe, other than a history, knows something you don't. Beware this one, as well, because some people have a tendency to "know" things that they actually do not. She already has an inherent bias against men, as you admit by calling her a femminist. 9. Maybe she just wants to stir the pot because her life is boring, and by stirring the pot she can get people more interested in her to compensate for the lack of interest in her (as opposed to her body, assuming you come with the counter-argument that she gets plenty of male attention). I could probably go on if i sat and thought long enough. One of the many reasons for the roles we've traditionally had amongst our sexes was due to this tendency for indirect conflict with women (not to say this justifies things, as some men have the tendency as well, and plenty of women can be direct), because this sort of "poisonous" confrontation where people can't be direct with what their real beef is is absolutely destructive not just of the friendships but also the marriages, and sometimes it can have a domino effect into other peoples' lives. If at any point you feel this could get out of hand, do yourself, your husband, and perhaps your other friends a favor, and her a favor, too, by cutting her loose. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a great friendship for your own personal good. It's not just about your husband, it's about you too. She's not respecting your feelings, and this is indicative of a larger issue with the friendship. Thank you, that was many possible reasons! I will read through them more thoroughly and try to figure out which could be true for her. I will get back to you.
Kohlrak Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheRedPanda said: Thank you, that was many possible reasons! I will read through them more thoroughly and try to figure out which could be true for her. I will get back to you. Please do, as i imagine it would be helpful to many, especially if you can ultimately show us how you came to your conclusion. Plus, that would also give us the opportunity to help you double check yourself, just incase you may have a bias. Finding the truth is about getting as much fact out there as possible, and the truth will reveal itself.
barn Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: I have absolutely redefined my definition of friend, I would love to hear more about that. For fairness sake: (not final) 'Someone who shares my principles to a large enough degree and choosing to share truth with me, unapologetically, virtuously is reciprocal.' 17 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: In the beginning I was very sad about the feeling of losing the friendship, Huh. Interesting. Why were you sad? 17 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: In the beginning I was very sad about the feeling of losing the friendship, then I was angry, but now I am mostly curious to why she changed her mind about me and him like this. To me, the order is different +added properties. 1. doubt / anger / inconvenience / sadness 2. clarification 3. relief & resolve / update 17 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: What made me settle for my husband was mainly his virtues that I mentioned. I should also mention that the big majority of my friends really like him. It's the more feminist types that have problems with him, and me. Does that mean, that On 05/23/2018 at 3:17 PM, TheRedPanda said: It's like talking to a brick wall. I am also quite sure that she is talking about this with other friends of mine. I should also mention that this behavior is exclusive to my friends of Swedish origin, and has caused me to distance myself from most of my Swedish friends. Today, I would estimate >90% of my friends are from Asia and Europe. You are 'culturally' isolated... sort of 'austerised' by 9 out of 10 people from your inner circles? (If it's true... Maaan! That must be hard as 'adamantium'!) 17 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: I don't think all feminists are the same. I live in Sweden, where basically all women call themselves feminists, and I know a bunch who I believe are virtuous. I see. Do you think 'belief' can be taken as proof? (as in: should there be objective proof of evaluating what is/isn't virtue signaling?) 17 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: In my view, many have just fallen for the propaganda of Good, or not thought through their feminist statements properly. Um,... Yes, let's say they accidentally chose not to compare deliberate actions to objective standards. It can happen. I mean, what would they gain from discussing diametrically opposing assessments to their claims... yep, all is good, look away,.... 'squirrel' !!! (as in: Sorry to say so, I'm wondering if you were actually white-knighting, still not allotting responsibility proper, where it was due. It's hard to do, so please accept my sincere sympathy but I warn you for your own good... nobody recovers from an illnes the doctor omits to mention/treat. Be truthful! Have Real Time Relationships!) Edited May 24, 2018 by barn friend definition - update
Kohlrak Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 15 minutes ago, barn said: Um,... Yes, let's say they accidentally chose not to compare deliberate actions to objective standards. It can happen. I mean, what would they gain from discussing diametrically opposing assessments to their claims... yep, all is good, look away,.... 'squirrel' !!! This merits a whole topic of it's own, and perhaps a proper study: Why is it that a choice to be or remain passive is not seen as an active choice made?
TheRedPanda Posted May 23, 2018 Author Posted May 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Kohlrak said: I could think of a number of things. First thing to note is, men are physically strong and have a hierarchy, thus have a tendency to prefer settling disputes directly. Women, much the opposite. It doesn't always hold true (per situation, not per person), but Stefan has talked about this a few times, even. You must understand this to understand what i'm proposing next. 1. A hardcore femminist has their own worldview that men are better than women. By taking on your traditional roles, either you are, or you appear to be (to the feminist it doesn't matter, because in her eyes you actually are), letting that man have control over you while you sit there and say "yes, master" (regardless of whether this is only slightly in his favor, or if he has complete control). In this case, she's trying to protect you from him. 2. Like case 1, except because of her hatred and bias towards men, she can't enjoy that situation, even if she, herself, is into that sort of thing. In this case, she's not only jealous, but your happiness is in conflict with her world view, which means that everything she does to men is not only wrong, but she then has to admit to herself that she's been doing the wrong thing, and, depending on her age, it might be too late for her. 3. Maybe she wants what you have. She likes what she sees, and she likes the friendship, but "can't help herself." So perhaps she wants him out of the picture for self-control, or to take a shot at him herself. 4. Maybe she wants what he has. I've read articles about two different studies (yes, one of them was the pupil study, and the other i'm having trouble finding but i'd love to find it if you, by any chance, have any recollection of it, as i'd love to start that discussion here and/or elsewhere) that suggest that while homosexuality and heterosexuality are common among men (mostly heterosexuality), women have a tendency towards bisexuality (over heterosexuality). Personally, i think more studies should be done regarding this, especially as the sample size was relatively small for the kind of conclusion it came to (suggested there were no straight women), with only a couple hundred participants. However, regardless of the study, i'm sure if you have any friends who work night shift (since these women tend to be more open about it, from my experience) you'll probably see these numbers inflated enough to consider the possibility. 5. Maybe she just hates men and doesn't like seeing them happy. 6. Maybe there's a history (i highly recommend saving this conclusion for last, because both men and women [actually, contrary to popular belief, men are more susceptible to this than women] have a tendency to check this first, even though you can never really prove innocence, but only guilt, therefore putting this idea first will eat at you and your marriage). 7. Like 2, except you're happy. 8. Maybe, other than a history, knows something you don't. Beware this one, as well, because some people have a tendency to "know" things that they actually do not. She already has an inherent bias against men, as you admit by calling her a femminist. 9. Maybe she just wants to stir the pot because her life is boring, and by stirring the pot she can get people more interested in her to compensate for the lack of interest in her (as opposed to her body, assuming you come with the counter-argument that she gets plenty of male attention). I could probably go on if i sat and thought long enough. One of the many reasons for the roles we've traditionally had amongst our sexes was due to this tendency for indirect conflict with women (not to say this justifies things, as some men have the tendency as well, and plenty of women can be direct), because this sort of "poisonous" confrontation where people can't be direct with what their real beef is is absolutely destructive not just of the friendships but also the marriages, and sometimes it can have a domino effect into other peoples' lives. If at any point you feel this could get out of hand, do yourself, your husband, and perhaps your other friends a favor, and her a favor, too, by cutting her loose. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a great friendship for your own personal good. It's not just about your husband, it's about you too. She's not respecting your feelings, and this is indicative of a larger issue with the friendship. Something struck me while considering your suggestions. From my experience, when women complain about something or someone it is often based on some form of jealousy. And thinking about patterns I have seen in her relationship to her boyfriend I realized this: The first time I met her boyfriend, it struck me that he both looked and talked in a very feminine way. Had I seen him on the street, I would assume he was gay. I have also met his closes friends once, all of which gave strong impressions of being hippies and day drifters... All well over thirty I should include. When she talks about him, it has more often than not been about something that he is bad at, or can't do properly. And she often has a "naggy" tone when she speaks to him. This is quite a contrast to her previous relationship, which was with a guy who was more stable, financially and emotionally - whom she would speak lovingly to. While my relationship is steadily moving towards financial stability, settling down and supporting each other... Hers seems to me to be more about parties, fun and spontaneity (all fun and games when you are 21, but at 28 it doesn't feel so glorious). I will think more about what you mentioned, but this just came to my mind very clearly and I wanted to throw it out there.
TheRedPanda Posted May 23, 2018 Author Posted May 23, 2018 52 minutes ago, barn said: I would love to hear more about that. For fairness sake: (not final) 'Someone who shares my virtues and choosing to share truth with me, unapologetically, virtuously is reciprocal.' Huh. Interesting. Why were you sad? To me, the order is different +added properties. 1. doubt / anger / inconvenience / sadness 2. clarification 3. relief & resolve / update Does that mean, that You are 'culturally' isolated... sort of 'austerised' by 9 out of 10 people from your inner circles? (If it's true... Maaan! That must be hard as 'adamantium'!) I see. Do you think 'belief' can be taken as proof? (as in: should there be objective proof of evaluating what is/isn't virtue signaling?) Um,... Yes, let's say they accidentally chose not to compare deliberate actions to objective standards. It can happen. I mean, what would they gain from discussing diametrically opposing assessments to their claims... yep, all is good, look away,.... 'squirrel' !!! (as in: Sorry to say so, I'm wondering if you were actually white-knighting, still not allotting responsibility proper, where it was due. It's hard to do, so please accept my sincere sympathy but I warn you for your own good... nobody recovers from an illnes the doctor omits to mention/treat. Be truthful! Have Real Time Relationships!) I feel like you are drawing some conclusions on your own, or maybe I was unclear. About few of my friends being Swedish... I never had many Swedish friends. Before I met my husband I also had friends mostly originally from other countries. So it is not like I have become culturally isolated because of him. I just wanted to make that clear. I was sad to lose her as a friend because we have shared many fun moments together, and because I helped her a lot through a difficult part of her life - which made me believe that we were close. After all this, I have realized that she is mostly a fun person to hang out with, but probably not someone that I can get really close and honest with. Which is why now, I don't feel like it's a loss anymore. I wouldn't want to have people like that around me anymore.
Kohlrak Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheRedPanda said: Something struck me while considering your suggestions. From my experience, when women complain about something or someone it is often based on some form of jealousy. And thinking about patterns I have seen in her relationship to her boyfriend I realized this: The first time I met her boyfriend, it struck me that he both looked and talked in a very feminine way. Had I seen him on the street, I would assume he was gay. I have also met his closes friends once, all of which gave strong impressions of being hippies and day drifters... All well over thirty I should include. When she talks about him, it has more often than not been about something that he is bad at, or can't do properly. And she often has a "naggy" tone when she speaks to him. This is quite a contrast to her previous relationship, which was with a guy who was more stable, financially and emotionally - whom she would speak lovingly to. While my relationship is steadily moving towards financial stability, settling down and supporting each other... Hers seems to me to be more about parties, fun and spontaneity (all fun and games when you are 21, but at 28 it doesn't feel so glorious). I will think more about what you mentioned, but this just came to my mind very clearly and I wanted to throw it out there. Me and my girlfriend have been together for about 10 years. I told her i'm not sticking a ring on it until me and her are at least both financially stable to justify being with each other as well as able to justify the likely children. Now, she has this "best friend," whom doesn't like me. To be fair, her dislike of me has more to do with our direct interactions than anything else. This very lefty friend has just went to whore town, at about 28, for the first time (she was supposedly just super flirty for the previous years). She passive-aggressively attacks our relationship: she fights hardest for my girlfriend's attention when she knows i'm around, and even playing some games which, from an outside perspective, look alot like trying to test my girlfriend's priorities between me and her. My assessment: she has a hard-on for my girlfriend, and i won't bother going into it, but there's plenty of evidence for this. I think she's gone full whore mode thinking he might make my girlfriend jelous or something. Due to the privacy of not just her, but other people as well, i can't publicly state what the event was, but there was an event that ultimately triggered her open whoring (i think she was sleeping around alot before, but only very recently opened up to my girlfriend about it). She's constantly talking telling my girlfriend not to "judge" her, yet she insists on constantly trying to rub her activity in my girlfriend's face. This friend also "has a problem with fuckboys," which she (the friend) is really upset about, while she turns around and sees me as "a meanie," and other things, but my dear girlfriend, while she's worried about the future, is otherwise much happier than the friend. I really see no evidence to suggest she'd rather have my girlfriend unhappy, but i do see evidence that i mess with her worldview, which she has committed to, to late 20s, which is kind of the point of no return for such worldviews: she's in it, she has to fully commit, because if she's wrong, she's in a bad situation, and it's likely too late for her (in her own eyes, too, most likely). In other words, if me and my girlfriend are right, and she's wrong, she's about to live a very bitter life because she isn't going to find someone like me, or better: all she has is "fuckboys." She also happens to be in the area, tonight (she moved out of the area a few years ago). If i hear anything of note that i can say openly, i'll be sure to respond in this post. Sometimes it's more than just one thing, and while it usually is jealousy, it isn't always necessarily jealousy, but jealousy is usually the result of a conflict of world-view to reality. Sometimes if you have something that is in conflict with what someone believes, they have to destroy that thing, or "discover the lies" in order to continue their warped worldview. More than jealousy, i want you to focus on this, because simply giving her the opportunity for, or the thing itself, that she wants, doesn't mean she'll take it and leave things alone. The way to respond to jealousy vs worldview issues can be different in certain scenarios, so you want to be absolutely sure before you commit to an idea of a solution.
barn Posted May 23, 2018 Posted May 23, 2018 1 hour ago, TheRedPanda said: I feel like you are drawing some conclusions on your own, or maybe I was unclear. Let's have a look, shall we... 10 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: I have a problem with some of my friends. Or rather, they seem to have a problem with my husband. 10 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: Some of my friends have expressed worries 10 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: He is also one of the most non-feministic men I have ever met. I live in Sweden, so there are not a lot of them around. 10 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: my husband is not sexist - and provide her with proof and concrete examples. It's like talking to a brick wall. I am also quite sure that she is talking about this with other friends of mine. 10 hours ago, TheRedPanda said: I should also mention that this behavior is exclusive to my friends of Swedish origin, and has caused me to distance myself from most of my Swedish friends. Today, I would estimate >90% of my friends are from Asia and Europe. From all the quotes I took, it is reasonable to estimate that, the Swedish origin friends of yours ... you have distanced+/ they have distanced themselves from you, but either way they comprise less than 1 in 10 person in your close, inner circles. Does that mean you have a disproportionately greater contact with people NOT from the same culture as your own country? Isn't that cultural isolation EXACTLY, maybe even 'proximity isolation'? I mean, I am looking at your quotes... wouldn't you arrive to the same conclusions reading yourself back? Maybe you made several mistakes and need to correct them, clarify... sure, feel free to do so. I have nothing against correcting errors, mis-spoken words being rectified.
TheRedPanda Posted May 24, 2018 Author Posted May 24, 2018 6 hours ago, barn said: Let's have a look, shall we... From all the quotes I took, it is reasonable to estimate that, the Swedish origin friends of yours ... you have distanced+/ they have distanced themselves from you, but either way they comprise less than 1 in 10 person in your close, inner circles. Does that mean you have a disproportionately greater contact with people NOT from the same culture as your own country? Isn't that cultural isolation EXACTLY, maybe even 'proximity isolation'? I mean, I am looking at your quotes... wouldn't you arrive to the same conclusions reading yourself back? Maybe you made several mistakes and need to correct them, clarify... sure, feel free to do so. I have nothing against correcting errors, mis-spoken words being rectified. Yes, and when my quotes are put together like that it does look a bit more dramatic than how I experience it. I could definitely have been more careful with my words, I realize I am exaggerating at times. Thank you for pointing it out. I think I reacted to the word 'isolated' , because it sounds so harsh. But yes, frankly, you are right. OK, let me rephrase it more according to reality. I am referring to three friends. Two of which I had a low quality relationship with, and I was friends with them mostly because I felt they needed my support. I did not get much back from them in the relationship in terms of support. When I met my husband I was quite agreeable and had often troubles to stand up for myself. He supported me to be more honest and stand my ground. He did not push me to end it with these two friends, but as I got more honest with myself and my relationships, I pushed them away, and they pushed me away. I don't have a problem with it, in fact, I feel liberated. What bothers me is that they can't see that I have grown into a happier and stronger person, and be happy for me. The third friend I have already explained, and she is the reason I wrote this post. I also want to mention that in the recent years, I have also made good relationships with new friends who are Swedish, though the big majority of my friends are not.
barn Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 26 minutes ago, TheRedPanda said: Yes, and when my quotes are put together like that it does look a bit more dramatic than how I experience it. I could definitely have been more careful with my words, I realize I am exaggerating at times. Thank you for pointing it out. I think I reacted to the word 'isolated' , because it sounds so harsh. But yes, frankly, you are right. OK, let me rephrase it more according to reality. I am referring to three friends. Two of which I had a low quality relationship with, and I was friends with them mostly because I felt they needed my support. I did not get much back from them in the relationship in terms of support. When I met my husband I was quite agreeable and had often troubles to stand up for myself. He supported me to be more honest and stand my ground. He did not push me to end it with these two friends, but as I got more honest with myself and my relationships, I pushed them away, and they pushed me away. I don't have a problem with it, in fact, I feel liberated. What bothers me is that they can't see that I have grown into a happier and stronger person, and be happy for me. The third friend I have already explained, and she is the reason I wrote this post. I also want to mention that in the recent years, I have also made good relationships with new friends who are Swedish, though the big majority of my friends are not. Good on you, I have massive respect for people capable and demonstrably responsible for their actions! I'll remember that from you, thanks. Regarding your clarification: If I'm over-simplifying and loosing out important details here, please correct me... Would it be fair to say, you are struggling to accept your ex-friends' true nature due to the investment you've put into the relationship with them? Additionally, who does it benefit you having doubts about standing up for your preferences, when it's come about you 'seeing more' compared to the past?
TheRedPanda Posted May 24, 2018 Author Posted May 24, 2018 7 hours ago, Kohlrak said: Me and my girlfriend have been together for about 10 years. I told her i'm not sticking a ring on it until me and her are at least both financially stable to justify being with each other as well as able to justify the likely children. Now, she has this "best friend," whom doesn't like me. To be fair, her dislike of me has more to do with our direct interactions than anything else. This very lefty friend has just went to whore town, at about 28, for the first time (she was supposedly just super flirty for the previous years). She passive-aggressively attacks our relationship: she fights hardest for my girlfriend's attention when she knows i'm around, and even playing some games which, from an outside perspective, look alot like trying to test my girlfriend's priorities between me and her. My assessment: she has a hard-on for my girlfriend, and i won't bother going into it, but there's plenty of evidence for this. I think she's gone full whore mode thinking he might make my girlfriend jelous or something. Due to the privacy of not just her, but other people as well, i can't publicly state what the event was, but there was an event that ultimately triggered her open whoring (i think she was sleeping around alot before, but only very recently opened up to my girlfriend about it). She's constantly talking telling my girlfriend not to "judge" her, yet she insists on constantly trying to rub her activity in my girlfriend's face. This friend also "has a problem with fuckboys," which she (the friend) is really upset about, while she turns around and sees me as "a meanie," and other things, but my dear girlfriend, while she's worried about the future, is otherwise much happier than the friend. I really see no evidence to suggest she'd rather have my girlfriend unhappy, but i do see evidence that i mess with her worldview, which she has committed to, to late 20s, which is kind of the point of no return for such worldviews: she's in it, she has to fully commit, because if she's wrong, she's in a bad situation, and it's likely too late for her (in her own eyes, too, most likely). In other words, if me and my girlfriend are right, and she's wrong, she's about to live a very bitter life because she isn't going to find someone like me, or better: all she has is "fuckboys." She also happens to be in the area, tonight (she moved out of the area a few years ago). If i hear anything of note that i can say openly, i'll be sure to respond in this post. Sometimes it's more than just one thing, and while it usually is jealousy, it isn't always necessarily jealousy, but jealousy is usually the result of a conflict of world-view to reality. Sometimes if you have something that is in conflict with what someone believes, they have to destroy that thing, or "discover the lies" in order to continue their warped worldview. More than jealousy, i want you to focus on this, because simply giving her the opportunity for, or the thing itself, that she wants, doesn't mean she'll take it and leave things alone. The way to respond to jealousy vs worldview issues can be different in certain scenarios, so you want to be absolutely sure before you commit to an idea of a solution. Wow, that's quite a friend. Does your girlfriend see what you see about her? Interestingly enough, even my friend has a history of sleeping around. When she was in early 20's she had this long committed and serious relationship that I mentioned. However, she cheated on him with a one night stand, and after that... They have kind of multiplied. I also don't want to go into too much details, but let me just say that it sometimes has seemed like her prio one to get a cheap shag, considering the times and places in which it happened. I spent the night thinking about this jealousy and world view collide. It makes a lot of sense to me, that that should be the reason for her behavior. In the beginning of me and my husband's relationship (we met in our early twenties) she did not express any criticism and she hang out a lot with us. But, naturally, he and me got more and more serious, starting to build a life... While she got more and more spontaneous and reckless. If I look at the people she surround herself with, it is mostly people with similar mindset as hers, the most important part of life is to have fun and do crazy things. Our way of life is a huge collide with hers, and considering that we are approaching 30, a change of mindset is very late. I feel bad for saying this but... Considering her background of cheating and sleeping around a lot, her prospect of finding and keeping a quality man is not the best. She probably knows this, and denying our way of living is easier for her than facing the truth.
TheRedPanda Posted May 24, 2018 Author Posted May 24, 2018 18 minutes ago, barn said: Good on you, I have massive respect for people capable and demonstrably responsible for their actions! I'll remember that from you, thanks. Regarding your clarification: If I'm over-simplifying and loosing out important details here, please correct me... Would it be fair to say, you are struggling to accept your ex-friends' true nature due to the investment you've put into the relationship with them? Additionally, who does it benefit you having doubts about standing up for your preferences, when it's come about you 'seeing more' compared to the past? Yes, I think so. I put effort into these three relationships (especially with my third friend) and was happy to see them grow. When it is my time to grow, however, all I get is rejection. This never occurred to me before, but a very interesting point is that all three do have problems with their relationships. The third friend I explained above. But the other two... One is over 30 and has never had a partner and lives alone. The other is a hard core feminist but has a relationship with a much much older man with a poor career. Could you rephrase your last question? I don't really understand what you mean.
barn Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 1 minute ago, TheRedPanda said: Could you rephrase your last question? I don't really understand what you mean. Certainly: As in, let's say you were a 'social alcoholic' (needs drinks to stand people who are otherwise vain, boring) and for years on out the typical get-togethers included drinking during the meetings. One day you change your mind and don't order any alcohol but try the experience without. The difference is obvious and you try to share your observations with the people, to which they respond by saying things as 'You're acting square, aren't you?!', 'C'mon, it's nothing to do with alcohol, what got into you?'... etc. Who does it benefit not drinking alcohol when get-togethers, those that need it for the duration or those who are there for the actual individuals, the true-selves of the people?
TheRedPanda Posted May 24, 2018 Author Posted May 24, 2018 40 minutes ago, barn said: Certainly: As in, let's say you were a 'social alcoholic' (needs drinks to stand people who are otherwise vain, boring) and for years on out the typical get-togethers included drinking during the meetings. One day you change your mind and don't order any alcohol but try the experience without. The difference is obvious and you try to share your observations with the people, to which they respond by saying things as 'You're acting square, aren't you?!', 'C'mon, it's nothing to do with alcohol, what got into you?'... etc. Who does it benefit not drinking alcohol when get-togethers, those that need it for the duration or those who are there for the actual individuals, the true-selves of the people? I see! Well, definitely it benefits me. Just like in your example, the problematic alcoholic behavior only becomes problematic when some one refuses and can see the situation for what it is. When some one stops fueling the lie. Also, regarding the supporting that I put into my friends, I can see that just like the alcohol, it was somewhat of a lie. I would provide support and comfort them, but only to the extent that was still safe for them. I never addressed the bigger issue... their behavior towards men and commitment, and life-long plans. This allowed them to stay in their bubble of pretend safety. As I became more capable of seeing through our relationship, I also risked them to become aware of their bubble, or lies about themselves. Which would be very painful for them to realize. Then it is much easier to accuse the sober one for being square, and thereby disregard the truth.
barn Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 11 minutes ago, TheRedPanda said: I see! Well, definitely it benefits me. Just like in your example, the problematic alcoholic behavior only becomes problematic when some one refuses and can see the situation for what it is. When some one stops fueling the lie. Also, regarding the supporting that I put into my friends, I can see that just like the alcohol, it was somewhat of a lie. I would provide support and comfort them, but only to the extent that was still safe for them. I never addressed the bigger issue... their behavior towards men and commitment, and life-long plans. This allowed them to stay in their bubble of pretend safety. As I became more capable of seeing through our relationship, I also risked them to become aware of their bubble, or lies about themselves. Which would be very painful for them to realize. Then it is much easier to accuse the sober one for being square, and thereby disregard the truth. Neat. I think it is praiseworthy you examining these things. Massive thumbs up! I'd definitely keep discussing these topics with open-minded and curious individuals until you get absolute clarity and the internalised state. (as in: can spot, avoid, manage, maintain true heading consciously)
TheRedPanda Posted May 24, 2018 Author Posted May 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, barn said: Neat. I think it is praiseworthy you examining these things. Massive thumbs up! I'd definitely keep discussing these topics with open-minded and curious individuals until you get absolute clarity and the internalised state. (as in: can spot, avoid, manage, maintain true heading consciously) Thank you so much for your time Barnsley! I am new to this forum and really surprised and humbled by the time you (and others in this thread) put down, and the quality of your replies. You really got my mind working in new directions, and I will continue to explore this issue. Thank you.
Kohlrak Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 1 hour ago, TheRedPanda said: Wow, that's quite a friend. Does your girlfriend see what you see about her? Not sure. I've told her such, but she doesn't act upon that knowledge. She does agree there's some sort of jealousy, but she thinks the motives are different. 1 hour ago, TheRedPanda said: Interestingly enough, even my friend has a history of sleeping around. When she was in early 20's she had this long committed and serious relationship that I mentioned. However, she cheated on him with a one night stand, and after that... They have kind of multiplied. I also don't want to go into too much details, but let me just say that it sometimes has seemed like her prio one to get a cheap shag, considering the times and places in which it happened. I've noticed this correlates with feminism. I have lots of memes to that effect. I have a really good one that i could send you in private, 'cause i don't think it would be very approved of publicly for the shear vulgarity of it. Definitely "locker room talk." That said, these ones you gotta watch out for: relationship experts that can't hold a stable relationship. It sounds to me like she's in a really bad way right now, and she's kinda invested in her opinion, which i'm willing to bet stems from whatever idea she uses to justify her behavior towards men. Single mother (as in her mother) also seems to correlate, so does your friend know her father? 1 hour ago, TheRedPanda said: I spent the night thinking about this jealousy and world view collide. It makes a lot of sense to me, that that should be the reason for her behavior. In the beginning of me and my husband's relationship (we met in our early twenties) she did not express any criticism and she hang out a lot with us. But, naturally, he and me got more and more serious, starting to build a life... While she got more and more spontaneous and reckless. If I look at the people she surround herself with, it is mostly people with similar mindset as hers, the most important part of life is to have fun and do crazy things. Our way of life is a huge collide with hers, and considering that we are approaching 30, a change of mindset is very late. Misery loves company, largely because you can move the blame if you don't have a success story near you. I really, really hate to make this suggestion, especially to a stranger, but i recommend you prepare for the worst. I don't know this woman, so i can't tell you to what extent she will go. I don't know if she'll try to "lay a trap" for your husband, if she'll try to frame him somehow, if she somehow sets you up, or whatever, but these people will sometimes justify to themselves that a certain behavior is OK, because they believe it's what's best for you, even if you don't agree with them right away. Not all people who are in her situation or could be described the way we've described her are like that, but some are, so you need to be ready and keep your eye out. It's this kind of situation that "poisonous" women are known for: giving bad advice to other women to either satisfy their jealousy or to have company. She's also likely to try to get her other friends involved in some way, even if she doesn't take dramatic steps. Keep your eyes open for warning signs, and if things get bad, separate yourself from her. If, by chance, she does go for your husband and he displays infidelity, then she was actually right about him, even if her motives were subconsciously (and this is important, as she will consciously justify to herself that she's doing the right thing) selfish. As long as your husband knows she could become a problem, i doubt he'd believe any story she might make up if she's really out there (i rarely see that kind of maneuver, though, from this type [usually i see women make up stories about other women for completely different reasons, like the one time someone tried to accuse me of hitting on her, i think for political reasons, but i can't remember the exact situation, but a few screenshots shined a light onto the real situation]). 1 hour ago, TheRedPanda said: I feel bad for saying this but... Considering her background of cheating and sleeping around a lot, her prospect of finding and keeping a quality man is not the best. She probably knows this, and denying our way of living is easier for her than facing the truth. That's what i've been indirectly trying to imply with my last post. I see this alot, especially with feminists. The correlation between feminism and her situation is like the correlation between being chinese and short. The real question is feminism is the chicken or the egg. 4 minutes ago, TheRedPanda said: Also, regarding the supporting that I put into my friends, I can see that just like the alcohol, it was somewhat of a lie. I would provide support and comfort them, but only to the extent that was still safe for them. I never addressed the bigger issue... their behavior towards men and commitment, and life-long plans. This allowed them to stay in their bubble of pretend safety. As I became more capable of seeing through our relationship, I also risked them to become aware of their bubble, or lies about themselves. Which would be very painful for them to realize. Then it is much easier to accuse the sober one for being square, and thereby disregard the truth. Women and agreeableness, aka never directly addressing the issue(s) at hand. At least it's consistent. We guys, being different, often don't face the same issues you do for this reason. I mentioned the reasons a few posts back, so no biggy. It's not like it's always wise to approach problems directly, anyway (especially infidelity: if you suspect but dont' have proof, you cannot approach directly, or they just learn how to hide it better before you do get proof [but you can't live paranoid, forever, either]). Sometimes by "not having the balls" you can become an enabler. That said, enabler or not, they still have their choice and their agency. 1 hour ago, TheRedPanda said: Yes, I think so. I put effort into these three relationships (especially with my third friend) and was happy to see them grow. When it is my time to grow, however, all I get is rejection. This never occurred to me before, but a very interesting point is that all three do have problems with their relationships. The third friend I explained above. But the other two... One is over 30 and has never had a partner and lives alone. The other is a hard core feminist but has a relationship with a much much older man with a poor career. And don't you love it when you give someone advice and they don't take it, but come back crying later demanding you don't say "i told you so"? Or is that just a guy thing where people ignore our advice? It seems we've found the problem, and it's probably not with your husband. But, given how you've phrased the original post, you already knew that. You came asking for help for dealing with your friends, so i'm going to do just that: watch out. You lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can protest with it that it was begging you to take it to water because it was dying of thirst, and then suddenly it doesn't want to drink. If people aren't taking your advice, but continue to ask you to fix their problems or tell them what to do, why do you continue to do that to yourself? These people can't sort their own problems out, yet magically try to know what's wrong in your life, when your life isn't bad like theirs. Beware: these people might be invested enough in their own bad decisions to cause you problems and convince themselves that they were working with your best interests in mind. These people, the more they are invested, the more they are not going to listen to reason. If you feel up to it, if you really want to try something that people haven't tried before, how about dream interpretations. My girlfriend has a bad habit of not following my advice that's based on reason and evidence, just like your friends, then wonders why things happen exactly why predicted. Her most recent example was a flower she killed, because it wasn't getting enough sun, even though i told her it wasn't (i even told her to get eye level with the plant to see if she could see outside and she was like "meh, it's fine"). I noticed that her dreams sometimes reflect this or other problems in her life. I've noticed my dreams work the same way. Dreams are usually analogies for what the subconscious can't be lied to about. My girlfriend had a dream yesterday that she woke up, she had a baby with her, but she couldn't find me, her mother, or really anyone else to help her figure out what to do. Her dream was a clear analogy that she relies too much on other people to do her thinking for her (ironically, she never follows advice, but she always feels the need to ask for it since she has trouble coming to her own conclusions, which, i can only conclude that stefan is right bout the power trip that people get from not following advice). So, ask these friends what their last nightmares were. See if they're getting attacked by men, are alone, or in a relationship with guys they don't like, or some other clear analogy. It's a long short, but maybe if you can convince them that their own mind is giving he advice, then maybe they'll listen. It's a long shot, though.
barn Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 @TheRedPanda You're most welcome, I find it always easy to be nice to nice people. My pleasure. (a good reminder) See you around
smarterthanone Posted May 24, 2018 Posted May 24, 2018 You could always just give them a little shock value. My exgf would have this happen and she would just look at them dead serious and just be like "Men are better. What are you talking about?" and they would be like "Omg what!?" And she would say "Men are stronger and smarter and much more capable, its quite obvious. Are you stupid?". The feminists would go C R A Z Y. Me and her would just laugh hysterically at them. My other exgf, she actually was interviewed on the street by a news reporter and he started asking her dumb questions about having a career and could you have it all and stuff like that and she said something to the effect of "I know I am supposed to have a career but I don't have time, I am too busy cooking and cleaning and taking care of my boyfriend to do anything else." I was dying laughing. I love girls who aren't afraid to troll moron feminists.
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