Refugee debate

[QwertyDavid]

Hello everybody,

 

In a few weeks I'll have to do a debate in class about the refugee crisis, I'm living in the Netherlands, and in contrast to the most of my class, I want to stop the flood of refugees. I want to have a good, objective debate. Any tips for good (non-biased) sources, hopefully good data. Thanks in advance! I'm also of course going to listen to all the FDR podcasts on this, but I couldn't find a study reference list in any of them, so maybe you all have something like that!

 

 

[RichardY]

I don't think you can have an objective debate. Birth rates are well known, I.Q was recorded by the UN. I remember a youtube video with a listener talking about hotel rooms going for 200 Euros a night in Sweden. All environment... pour a people/culture into a glass and they take the shape of the glass. How can you debate that?

"Objects in the Mirror are closer than they appear." 

Go down the lines of Rhetoric. Bonded to the state. Give the objective facts then go down an appeal to emotion. Long Tall Sally...she got everything that Uncle John needs. Have some fun, otherwse what's the point if a majority have already made up their minds, despite things like sex slavery. 

[Kohlrak]

1 hour ago, QwertyDavid said:

Hello everybody,

 

In a few weeks I'll have to do a debate in class about the refugee crisis, I'm living in the Netherlands, and in contrast to the most of my class, I want to stop the flood of refugees. I want to have a good, objective debate. Any tips for good (non-biased) sources, hopefully good data. Thanks in advance! I'm also of course going to listen to all the FDR podcasts on this, but I couldn't find a study reference list in any of them, so maybe you all have something like that!

 

 

Stefan cites his sources in his video descriptions, but, as RichardY stated, you're going to have to tackle some other narratives first. Debate formats typically prevent you from making your whole case, so you're fighting an uphill battle. A different angle you might want to take, is letting the have everything they want. Let them have the IQ equality and try attacking different angles: as more people pour in, the crime rates rise, which is bad for the immigrants, as they're the ones going to jail the most or being victimized the most, so let someone who knows what they're doing adopt them. I'm sure you could come up with a few more angles, as well. If you're going to debate lefties, quit arguing about what's important to you: they're already doing that, and they don't care about the same things you do. Find out what's valuable to them, and show them how the immigration hurts their policies on women's rights, gay rights, etc. Show them how importation hurts them, even if it's worse in their home country, you're keeping them from being imported by someone who could handle it better. Make it about the victims themselves, and if they show they don't care about the victims, go for their jugular: their self-righteous moral stances. If you can vilify them for not caring about the rights of other, especially the immigrants, it will eat them alive.

[QwertyDavid]

On 5/23/2018 at 10:15 PM, Kohlrak said:

Stefan cites his sources in his video descriptions, but, as RichardY stated, you're going to have to tackle some other narratives first. Debate formats typically prevent you from making your whole case, so you're fighting an uphill battle. A different angle you might want to take, is letting the have everything they want. Let them have the IQ equality and try attacking different angles: as more people pour in, the crime rates rise, which is bad for the immigrants, as they're the ones going to jail the most or being victimized the most, so let someone who knows what they're doing adopt them. I'm sure you could come up with a few more angles, as well. If you're going to debate lefties, quit arguing about what's important to you: they're already doing that, and they don't care about the same things you do. Find out what's valuable to them, and show them how the immigration hurts their policies on women's rights, gay rights, etc. Show them how importation hurts them, even if it's worse in their home country, you're keeping them from being imported by someone who could handle it better. Make it about the victims themselves, and if they show they don't care about the victims, go for their jugular: their self-righteous moral stances. If you can vilify them for not caring about the rights of other, especially the immigrants, it will eat them alive.

Yes! Thank you. 
The best one IMO for now: Lefties are big proponents of inclusivity and tolerance. Yes, you can have those values as a society, but then you can't let in people who are intolerant to other cultures (AKA Islam)

[Kohlrak]

2 hours ago, QwertyDavid said:

Yes! Thank you. 
The best one IMO for now: Lefties are big proponents of inclusivity and tolerance. Yes, you can have those values as a society, but then you can't let in people who are intolerant to other cultures (AKA Islam)

Which is a great angle. If lefties think it's OK to go after whitey for not being inclusive enough, and wanting to kick whitey out of the west, then the rules should apply to muslims (actually, arabs, since we're talking about race) as well.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

A part of me wonders if the "Refugee" Crisis is not in fact a blessing in disguise. Europe has become very decadent and morally dissolute since the World Wars and I think they needed a kick in the shin to wake them up lest their governments slowly put unremovable collars around them over the course of decades. Plus, the huge value difference between the ineffectual and degenerate Western Europe against the highly effectual but overly repressive Islam may spark the necessary culture war (assuming it hasn't already happened) that bridges the two extremes of decadent and careless West and overly repressive and extremist East. Rome wasn't built in a day... and it didn't collapse in a day either. But by the time it did collapse, it was beyond saving. 

I am not much of a debater as I prefer not to hide my own beliefs and speak from the perspective of those I vehemently disagree, but speaking from the perspective of false egalitarianism and "inclusivity", saying that the "refugees" will most likely suffer from Evil Whitey while they could be helped by Good Whitey (i.e. the Arabs) might make a dent. However I think that kind of incremental shifting is too slow and too ineffectual. If I were you (and I was in this position as a high schooler not long ago) I'd go all-out with statistics of relevant facts about the crime and rape rates and have them all sourced. They can cry and bay, but at least they were warned and those that hear it for the first time might take it upon themselves to educate themselves after. Arguing from their angle might be too weak and easily dismissed as nonsense, as I don't think it's equivalent to arguing from the perspective of a rival or friend. It's more like arguing from the perspective of a dweller of IngSoc. You don't speak the same language and don't see the same world. 

Tying these paragraphs together: I suggest you go all-out and try to shock them with facts and when they recoil, allow the consequences of the Crisis to happen so that they can no longer deny reality and perhaps respect you in the future as someone with a sober mind. Unless you plan on becoming a professional debater or public intellectual, you only have one shot at this so you might as well make it count.