[YouTube] STUDENT LOAN DEBT SLAVERY

[Freedomain]

STUDENT LOAN DEBT SLAVERY

Watch the video

[Boss]

Yea this gets sadder when you see freer markets do education and actually succeed. Like in the tech industry if you want an education you can go through a coding boot camp. They actually track the job success rate and its really high 85%+ hiring rate. Some also have "Only pay tuition once you're hired as a developer." like https://www.appacademy.io which also averages 6 figures for their Average Graduate Salary in SF

A lot of these coding boot camp educations can be completed within 6 months and are less than $10k some even free like https://www.freecodecamp.org

If only they lessen license regulation maybe other industries could also see this kind of free-market competition and educational success can happen. And students actually can get a good deal instead of getting indoctrinated. So much so, it seems the average graduate still wants free college. smh I wouldn't even go if they paid me.

[ofd]

Those are the programming equivalent of learning how to flip a burger.

[Kohlrak]

Why does the father sign, when he knows it's a bad deal? Sometimes a bad deal is better than no deal.

I've lived in a rural area all my life. My "town" is basically the capital of the "county," since it has the highest population (around 9000 people). I'm 28, approaching 29 fast, and the only jobs I ever got hired for was at the Chicken plant in the next county over (much smaller population that my county) and working in the kitchen of one of the local nursing homes. I'm currently unemployed (left the nursing home of my own accord, because all the red flags and sirens are going off that i needed to get out before the place crumbled around me [they're actually blaming their financial problems on the old people not dying fast enough in one of their news letters, but it was phrased in a more flowery way]).

I'm a self-taught programmer of C++, x86 Assembly, ARM assembly, Atmel assembly, with highschool training in Java (4 out of 5 on the "Advanced Placement college prep course test"), Visual Basic. Although now rusty from lack of use, i'm self-taught in spanish and Japanese (i understand the japanese isn't useful in Pennsylvania).

When i look for jobs, they either require X number of years of work experience, a degree, or both (and i'm not restricting my self to computer related jobs: i am searching for anything that would allow me to pay the average rent, plus food, car payments [i use my father's vehicles], and other basic utilities). So, what the wise minds online tell me, and their advice is logical, is that I need to relocate to a city, where supposedly these tech jobs are in demand. The problem with this is, even if i was, say, 18, i'd be starting out with nothing, aside from still living at home. Without living at home, I'd be living out of a car (which I wouldn't own, and be making payments on, supposing i could even get a loan to get one), paying the parking fees as rent, supposing i'm not arrested, and without running water for proper cleaning, so it's doubtful i'd pass the interview. The nearest "city" is an hour's drive away, and the area i live in is affected by snow. The nearest city must be reached by traveling over "mountains" which "close." The second nearest city is an hour and a half away, and, to be honest, I'm not sure if those roads close or not. So, I'm inevitably reliant on others, so it should be no surprise that i'm 28 and still in the exact same place i was 10 years ago.

Well, so the logical question is to ask where the other people in my class are today, and are they in a different situation. Many of them are. Alot are on welfare, quite a few went to college (see video again for their stories), and i'm noticing a trend towards getting CNA and LPN licenses. I'm from PA, and right now the politics regarding nursing homes make them a high risk, low reward environment: they're all moving towards the rehab model, to make up for the costs of the old people not dying (to be fair, the nursing homes are all having this problem), and this model has large amounts of fluctuation, and it's not unusual to under-staff and blame the nurses when the situation gets unrealistic and blows up on the nursing home (people end up neglected). On the other medical front, Geisinger group is taking over pretty much every hospital and doctor's office, and for some reason unbeknownst to me, they're trying to replace all LPNs with RNs (which ultimately costs more, but this doesn't change what they're doing). Meanwhile, nursing school is a mandatory trade school that requires student loans if you don't have massive financial backing to begin with. To be a state police officer, you need to have a college degree. It doesn't have to be in criminal justice or anything of that nature, they simply demand that you have a degree. The real kicker, when my father was recently hospitalized for a kidney stone, I was talking to one of the RNs there, and if you want to work for an agency, you have to be willing to relocate all over the country, because "if you're only willing to work in a few states, it's too competitive to have a year round job," telling me that this problem is not restricted to my state. The only job my generation and the next is easily able to get without a degree is the low income jobs at 8 to 9 bucks an hour, where even a factory job pays 10-12 an hour. Most people who work do not live alone (shacking up with people they aren't marrying) and/or work 2 or 3 (usually part-time) jobs. Should someone have a child, you aren't going to make rent if both parents aren't working, because they have a hard enough time without the child.

So why did the father sign? Well, because despite how bad of a deal it is, it's still better than "no deal." It's for the same reason millennials are asking for 15 an hour minimum wage, even though we all know it wouldn't actually solve the problem. All the borrowing, taxation, outsourcing, etc, has turned the united states into a service economy, which means most jobs are service jobs, which in turn means most jobs are low paying jobs. The boomers, terrified of retirement and/or social security being ripped out from under them are hanging on to their jobs. So, we're desperate. We see the problem before us, that there are few jobs before us, and no one wants to (do millenials really have a realistic chance at, given our wonderful reputation of being just like the boomers?) risk starting a new business, and we really have nothing to provide, while companies aren't doing the age old practice of sending potential job candidates to school under contract to work for the company when they get out. Post-secondary education is expensive, so the businesses can't afford it, so they don't want to invest. The job market is saturated with job hunters, so businesses come up with ridiculous "minimum requirements" to pass to prune out the weakest candidates, and when their requirements are unrealistic, they turn around and blame "those lazy millenials" for not trying to find work in their company (we're looking, but we can't meet the unrealistic standards of having job experience in something where every company has this experience requirement). The whole regulation, the liability, the out of control tort court system, welfare, taxes, rising school prices, outsourcing, and just about everything else that grew out of control under the watch of the boomers is manifesting itself right before us. The reason millenials are so pro-socialism is the fact that we'd rather pass this ugly mantel onto someone else, too. And don't even get me started on what demands are made for promotion, and what promotion usually gets you (nothing but more responsibility and similar pay).

I wish i could join people in the popcorn eating, but i'm just another character in this awful play. Don't get me wrong, millennials tend to blame the companies, which are just doing what they need to to survive. Sure, there are things they could be doing better, but they're trying not to end up on the bad end of this deal, either. Someone has to pay the piper, and everyone's pointing fingers at who should give in and take the beating. But this is why the father signs the agreement: at lest if you're in student debt, homeowners debt, making car payments, etc, there's hope for you at the end of all of it. Maybe you'll get lucky and you can use your degree if the system crashes.

[Boss]

50 minutes ago, Kohlrak said:

Why does the father sign, when he knows it's a bad deal? Sometimes a bad deal is better than no deal.

Well, the math still has to make sense to prove the bad deal is better than no deal 

Like in the video, the girl who is stuck paying interests on her student loan is "almost $200,000 less" And she doesn't even work in a job related to her degree

So that is -$200,000 and -4 years time? for college(indoctrination, just look at her twitter for proof) < no deal 

So I would argue for this particular case. No deal would have been better. Now if she actually worked at a job relating to her degree that could pay it off over time and profit then it would be different.

50 minutes ago, Kohlrak said:

I'm a self-taught programmer of C++, x86 Assembly, ARM assembly, Atmel assembly, with highschool training in Java (4 out of 5 on the "Advanced Placement college prep course test"), Visual Basic. Although now rusty from lack of use, i'm self-taught in spanish and Japanese (i understand the japanese isn't useful in Pennsylvania).

 When i look for jobs, they either require X number of years of work experience, a degree, or both (and i'm not restricting my self to computer related jobs: i am searching for anything that would allow me to pay the average rent, plus food, car payments [i use my father's vehicles], and other basic utilities). So, what the wise minds online tell me, and their advice is logical, is that I need to relocate to a city, where supposedly these tech jobs are in demand.

9

I am also a self-taught programmer and started in a small town. I am not sure your experience, but I personally worked online as a freelancer which mostly didn't need a degree or to relocate. A good portfolio showing competence(hopefully relating to the job) will be most valuable from what I have seen. 

 

1 hour ago, Kohlrak said:

We see the problem before us, that there are few jobs before us, and no one wants to (do millenials really have a realistic chance at, given our wonderful reputation of being just like the boomers?) risk starting a new business, and we really have nothing to provide

It depends, on the millennial/person. If they can't find work, then there is no risk trying to start a new business(unless it requires finances) but many types of businesses can start with just sweat equity if one is willing to do the research and planning. Also if they have no skills, then they will need to acquire some to provide value to the marketplace. Like after freelancing and saving income, I eventually decided to go full time on business. It was a calculated risk as, during the time of going full time on my business, I could have just continued freelancing. 

 

1 hour ago, Kohlrak said:

The only job my generation and the next is easily able to get without a degree is the low income jobs at 8 to 9 bucks an hour, where even a factory job pays 10-12 an hour

A degree is just a piece of paper. As Stefan pointed out the girl is making $20k a year which is like $10/hour and she has a degree. It's the skills that matter and with the internet, you can learn them without a degree and millennials/people can become more valuable than the minimum wage jobs if they are willing to do an analysis on what higher wage jobs require and then gaining the skills and of course proving it.


"He who has a why to live can bear almost any how" - Friedrich Nietzsche

[S1988]

6 hours ago, Kohlrak said:

Why does the father sign, when he knows it's a bad deal? Sometimes a bad deal is better than no deal.

I've lived in a rural area all my life. My "town" is basically the capital of the "county," since it has the highest population (around 9000 people). I'm 28, approaching 29 fast, and the only jobs I ever got hired for was at the Chicken plant in the next county over (much smaller population that my county) and working in the kitchen of one of the local nursing homes. I'm currently unemployed (left the nursing home of my own accord, because all the red flags and sirens are going off that i needed to get out before the place crumbled around me [they're actually blaming their financial problems on the old people not dying fast enough in one of their news letters, but it was phrased in a more flowery way]).

I'm a self-taught programmer of C++, x86 Assembly, ARM assembly, Atmel assembly, with highschool training in Java (4 out of 5 on the "Advanced Placement college prep course test"), Visual Basic. Although now rusty from lack of use, i'm self-taught in spanish and Japanese (i understand the japanese isn't useful in Pennsylvania).

When i look for jobs, they either require X number of years of work experience, a degree, or both (and i'm not restricting my self to computer related jobs: i am searching for anything that would allow me to pay the average rent, plus food, car payments [i use my father's vehicles], and other basic utilities). So, what the wise minds online tell me, and their advice is logical, is that I need to relocate to a city, where supposedly these tech jobs are in demand. The problem with this is, even if i was, say, 18, i'd be starting out with nothing, aside from still living at home. Without living at home, I'd be living out of a car (which I wouldn't own, and be making payments on, supposing i could even get a loan to get one), paying the parking fees as rent, supposing i'm not arrested, and without running water for proper cleaning, so it's doubtful i'd pass the interview. The nearest "city" is an hour's drive away, and the area i live in is affected by snow. The nearest city must be reached by traveling over "mountains" which "close." The second nearest city is an hour and a half away, and, to be honest, I'm not sure if those roads close or not. So, I'm inevitably reliant on others, so it should be no surprise that i'm 28 and still in the exact same place i was 10 years ago.

Well, so the logical question is to ask where the other people in my class are today, and are they in a different situation. Many of them are. Alot are on welfare, quite a few went to college (see video again for their stories), and i'm noticing a trend towards getting CNA and LPN licenses. I'm from PA, and right now the politics regarding nursing homes make them a high risk, low reward environment: they're all moving towards the rehab model, to make up for the costs of the old people not dying (to be fair, the nursing homes are all having this problem), and this model has large amounts of fluctuation, and it's not unusual to under-staff and blame the nurses when the situation gets unrealistic and blows up on the nursing home (people end up neglected). On the other medical front, Geisinger group is taking over pretty much every hospital and doctor's office, and for some reason unbeknownst to me, they're trying to replace all LPNs with RNs (which ultimately costs more, but this doesn't change what they're doing). Meanwhile, nursing school is a mandatory trade school that requires student loans if you don't have massive financial backing to begin with. To be a state police officer, you need to have a college degree. It doesn't have to be in criminal justice or anything of that nature, they simply demand that you have a degree. The real kicker, when my father was recently hospitalized for a kidney stone, I was talking to one of the RNs there, and if you want to work for an agency, you have to be willing to relocate all over the country, because "if you're only willing to work in a few states, it's too competitive to have a year round job," telling me that this problem is not restricted to my state. The only job my generation and the next is easily able to get without a degree is the low income jobs at 8 to 9 bucks an hour, where even a factory job pays 10-12 an hour. Most people who work do not live alone (shacking up with people they aren't marrying) and/or work 2 or 3 (usually part-time) jobs. Should someone have a child, you aren't going to make rent if both parents aren't working, because they have a hard enough time without the child.

So why did the father sign? Well, because despite how bad of a deal it is, it's still better than "no deal." It's for the same reason millennials are asking for 15 an hour minimum wage, even though we all know it wouldn't actually solve the problem. All the borrowing, taxation, outsourcing, etc, has turned the united states into a service economy, which means most jobs are service jobs, which in turn means most jobs are low paying jobs. The boomers, terrified of retirement and/or social security being ripped out from under them are hanging on to their jobs. So, we're desperate. We see the problem before us, that there are few jobs before us, and no one wants to (do millenials really have a realistic chance at, given our wonderful reputation of being just like the boomers?) risk starting a new business, and we really have nothing to provide, while companies aren't doing the age old practice of sending potential job candidates to school under contract to work for the company when they get out. Post-secondary education is expensive, so the businesses can't afford it, so they don't want to invest. The job market is saturated with job hunters, so businesses come up with ridiculous "minimum requirements" to pass to prune out the weakest candidates, and when their requirements are unrealistic, they turn around and blame "those lazy millenials" for not trying to find work in their company (we're looking, but we can't meet the unrealistic standards of having job experience in something where every company has this experience requirement). The whole regulation, the liability, the out of control tort court system, welfare, taxes, rising school prices, outsourcing, and just about everything else that grew out of control under the watch of the boomers is manifesting itself right before us. The reason millenials are so pro-socialism is the fact that we'd rather pass this ugly mantel onto someone else, too. And don't even get me started on what demands are made for promotion, and what promotion usually gets you (nothing but more responsibility and similar pay).

I wish i could join people in the popcorn eating, but i'm just another character in this awful play. Don't get me wrong, millennials tend to blame the companies, which are just doing what they need to to survive. Sure, there are things they could be doing better, but they're trying not to end up on the bad end of this deal, either. Someone has to pay the piper, and everyone's pointing fingers at who should give in and take the beating. But this is why the father signs the agreement: at lest if you're in student debt, homeowners debt, making car payments, etc, there's hope for you at the end of all of it. Maybe you'll get lucky and you can use your degree if the system crashes.

Have you thought of freelancing from home? That way, you wouldn't be limited to your territory. You can be a remote programmer.

[Kohlrak]

4 hours ago, S1988 said:

Have you thought of freelancing from home? That way, you wouldn't be limited to your territory. You can be a remote programmer.

I'm trying to find a stable income source, so i could finally move out of my home and get on with my life.

 

9 hours ago, Boss said:

Well, the math still has to make sense to prove the bad deal is better than no deal 

Like in the video, the girl who is stuck paying interests on her student loan is "almost $200,000 less" And she doesn't even work in a job related to her degree

So that is -$200,000 and -4 years time? for college(indoctrination, just look at her twitter for proof) < no deal 

So I would argue for this particular case. No deal would have been better. Now if she actually worked at a job relating to her degree that could pay it off over time and profit then it would be different.

Well, and i was reading comments in this video and other videos, and basically people (apparently some lawyers, too) are waiting for loan bailouts and/or the next crash. So, basically, everyone's banking on either a bailout or for the system to fall apart. Did this father see it that way? I don't know. Does the father have lawyer friends? I do remember talk and spam emails about Obama student loan forgiveness under the Obama administration. Was that kind of talk floating around in his circles? I don't know. Still, that bet, of having a chance at a decent paying job as a debt slave, is still a better prospect than being a debt slave without decent pay trying to pay off every loan you're taking out, because you start out with nothing and no realistic way to pay for it, thanks to credentialism (wonderful word i found in the comments section of the video, so apparently people have been talking about it, but not correlating it with the "student debt crisis").

9 hours ago, Boss said:

I am also a self-taught programmer and started in a small town. I am not sure your experience, but I personally worked online as a freelancer which mostly didn't need a degree or to relocate. A good portfolio showing competence(hopefully relating to the job) will be most valuable from what I have seen. 

Well, let me ask. Do you have a stable enough income to live on your own? 'Cause i've heard of people doing this as a stepping stone into a stable job. I've never heard of anyone trying to survive on it. So, I ask, is this viable?

9 hours ago, Boss said:

It depends, on the millennial/person. If they can't find work, then there is no risk trying to start a new business(unless it requires finances) but many types of businesses can start with just sweat equity if one is willing to do the research and planning. Also if they have no skills, then they will need to acquire some to provide value to the marketplace. Like after freelancing and saving income, I eventually decided to go full time on business. It was a calculated risk as, during the time of going full time on my business, I could have just continued freelancing. 

So what kind of costs, exactly, is one expected to accrue? Since you've been there, what's it take to deal with the credentials of business registration with the government, because you know other businesses want you to have that paper, just like a degree.

9 hours ago, Boss said:

A degree is just a piece of paper. As Stefan pointed out the girl is making $20k a year which is like $10/hour and she has a degree. It's the skills that matter and with the internet, you can learn them without a degree and millennials/people can become more valuable than the minimum wage jobs if they are willing to do an analysis on what higher wage jobs require and then gaining the skills and of course proving it.

That's the mentality i was in when i doubled down on learning programming. In theory, it should be enough to prove skills. In reality, proving that you wrote the code you're using, or dealing with your company trying to deal with "liabilities" becomes a problem (i've heard of old boomer accountants and secretaries loosing their jobs because they lacked the paper). Sure, the paper's meaningless, but so is the dollar. If we can't break ourselves free of using that worthless paper dollar, how do we expect to break free of that worthless paper degree?

Programming aside, take a look at job search platforms:

So, i look at my local area in the government job posting website (which is actually the goto job posting method in my area).

1. Frito Lay is looking for a sales rep. It's actually quite a drive away (not 1 hour, but still a drive), and while it requires no degree or experience, the "competitive salary" tells it all. See, that's how companies avoid putting "8-10 bucks an hour" on  job posting, since actually putting numbers and number ranges is possible (i've seen it). To drive the point home:

   Quote

   This is a physical job. We transform store aisles, end caps, and displays into works of art, from the lowest shelf to the highest shelf. Start times typically begin between three oclock and seven oclock in the morning. Hours per week average 50 to 60 hours and include weekend and/or holiday work in all weather conditions.

2. Accounting intern, at an hour away drive over said "mountain" that closes. "Competitive salary." 40 hours a week seasonal. Despite saying no education or experience required, in the actual job description they demand you have working knowledge of accounting. I agree, that last requirement is reasonable.

3. Conestoga wood. I applied at one of the local "job fairs," never got a call back. Less than a year later, they're advertising the job again. Guess like every other business, they "can't keep people," which usually means the pay is bad and they prefer external people for higher positions rather than promoting and rewarding good work. Another long drive away, and, should've guessed it, "competitive salary." In the description, it says generous wage, but they didn't actually list one when provided the opportunity. Experience tells me "this just like what democrats say when they say they care." I remember leaving the nursing home, and when i cited that it isn't enough to pay rent, the one supervisor laughed at me asking where i could possibly find better than 10.20 an hour, because they pay so well. To be fair, they did pay me more than one would reasonably expect for the job i was hired to do, but they also had made up job postings (and they expected me to do them) where elsewhere it would've been a much higher paying job.

So, let's try filtering out this junk, just like these same companies treat us like junk using filtration methods. Fun part here, when i go to the search filters, you can filter based on "estimated yearly salary," and 18 jobs fall under less than 10,000, 31 for 10,000, 20,000 has 70, 30,000 has 19, 40,000 has 9, 50,000 has 4, 60,000 has 1, 70,000 has 1, and 100,000 has 2, wtih the largest category of jobs falling under "unspecified" (aka minimum wage or close to it) at 195. So, to start off, over half the jobs on the market aren't even worth looking at, because your average person looking for a job wants to pay bills, not look for extra cash on the side.

20,000 seems reasonable, divided by 52 gives us 384 per week before taxes. This is the largest category with reported salaries, and we'll pretend there are not taxes, just incase they already factored your taxes in. So living alone, with rent around 600, out of your 1536 (pre-tax), you're already working over 1/3 for the land lord alone. If you pay only a little bit more per month, you can make a house payment and potentially have some equity, so it's not surprise that articles are written that the debt slaves are jumping into debt to buy a house (that market's ugly, by the way). Let's forget the similar car payment and all the other bills. Frankly, you're not living alone on this salary, but shacking up with someone.

1. First job, direct support specialist. They'll actually send you to school for your certification. Looks like this practice is slowly coming back. This is not what the search looked like last year.
2. Production Recruitment (yeah, they're not llooking for a recruiter, but a laborer). This company specializes in making those tiny houses that we see on the highway on the back of shipping trucks. I happen to know people who work there: about 14 an hour, which is one of the best around here. On job injuries are common, but, hey, gotta feed the wife (i'd say kids, but you aren't having them). They're the only other company (other than Standard Steel) that i'm aware of with an "incentive program," which pays you above the base pay (12) based on profits (explaining how 12 became 14).
3. Machinist in a plastic bag company, requires 2 years of experience with a lathe (and the catch-22 of experience begins, 'cause you aren't getting that professional experience without working there: they're targeting people who might move to this area from another).
4. Production/Warehouse forklift operator: 2 years experience (to be fair, if they just happen to need forklift drivers while you're on the part time line in the chicken plant, they'll train you there, and you gotta deal with that for 2 years [i won't get into the illegal immigrants, high crime rate at facility, high injury rate, etc]).
5. "Nursing assistant" for an agency. See problems from previous post. Listed three times.
6. "Food service," so they're probably lying about the yearly to get people or the hours are terrible. Listed as "competitive salary" for the hourly section. They're specifically looking for prospective employees with mental conditions (my ADHD is listed) or physical disabilities. I can only imagine why that might be.
7. Wireless sales associate (AKA cash register operator at companies trying to sell cellphones: AT&T, Verizon, etc are listed in the job description): 2 years minimum experience. Like most of these others, still magically listed at 20,000 a year despite "competitive salary," which means they're not reporting the full picture, which implies they're not honest.
8. Shipper-packer: 1 year of experience. "Competitive salary." Need i say more?
9. "Machine operator," minimum 2 years experience required. Apparently they've been falling into the age-old practice of blaming millennials for their lack of hiring due to their unrealistic job requirements, as evidenced by the job description, where the bold is present on the job posting: 

   Quote

   Local manufacturing company has an IMMEDIATE NEED for a Machine Operator in a fast-paced work environment.  Looking for experience in setting up and running CNC lathes, Vertical Mills and Horizontal.  Interested applicants must be able to read tape, mics and calipers; posess basic computer and math skills, be able to work with limited supervision, and have the ability to multitask.  Hours will be Monday - Friday, 6:00 am - 2:30 pm; pay based upon experience.  MUST have a GED or HS diploma; MUST pass a pre-employment background check and drug test. 

10. " Confectionary Production Associate" (aka Laborer at the local candy making factory):

    Quote

    Needs to have acquired 1-3 years related experience and/ or training. Equivalent combination of education and experience preferred.

I'd love to know what the experience must be in, but it's not even listed. These were not selected at random. These were not even carefully selected results. These were the actual search results, going down the list. I didn't skip-over or avoid any. This isn't just a problem for me, but a problem for everyone. So, the requirements have come down, i didn't see out of these jobs requring the usual bachelor's degree in anything just to work as a laborer factory, like i did a few years ago. I did recently hear that a startup in the next county over is giving preferential to exclusive hiring treatment for those with degrees (i'm assuming bachelor's or better) for positions like driving fork lift and inventory. One of those results actually suggested paying for schooling, which i've always heard boomers talking about, but it's the first time i've actually seen it. So, the market's actually reacting to the problems, just really, really slowly. They have to compromise to even have a work force, but they can only compromise so much, and they're still employing dirty tactics (lying about wages and hours) to hire employees. I'd continue on, but i need to get going.

This is a huge problem, and I hope stefan addresses it, at least for the sake of summarizing it for others, because no one wants to listen to "lazy" millennials. This is the source of the "failure to launch"/"failure to land." The source of this problem is government regulation. This is the thing that stefan is not talking about that explains precisely the things stefan is talking about: the suicide rate is up, men running from babies (that they can't afford), unemployment rate, young people living at home, student debt crisis, and the list goes on. This is the focal point for me and almost everyone else i graduated with. There is no easy fix and what we're doing is merely strategies on circumnavigating this problem.

I'd love to hear from more people who found ways around it. So far i have 2 people here suggesting starting business/freelance programming work (which most people i graduated with are not smart enough for, which we can point the finger, but remember we're dealing with a major demographic change).

[Boss]

19 hours ago, Kohlrak said:

Well, and i was reading comments in this video and other videos, and basically people (apparently some lawyers, too) are waiting for loan bailouts and/or the next crash. So, basically, everyone's banking on either a bailout or for the system to fall apart

Yea, I haven't read their comments but its a shame if so. Mathematically, there cant be a bailout. The gov even knows this and that is why they made sure students cant file bankruptcy and that student loan debt can't go away, some even get transferred to the parent if the student dies.

As far as a crash, it would be worse for everyone in the short run but the worse will be for the people with no job/work and who relies on the gov, as their gov money will be gone and they got no work too and also they probably didn't take the time to learn how to find work.

 

19 hours ago, Kohlrak said:

Well, let me ask. Do you have a stable enough income to live on your own? 'Cause i've heard of people doing this as a stepping stone into a stable job. I've never heard of anyone trying to survive on it. So, I ask, is this viable?

When it comes to "stable" income, it depends on the contract of the gig. This kinda goes for all jobs. Like unless there is a contract signed as "stable" it's not really a thing. But there are many long-term freelancing gigs available. Like I remember working with one person for like 4 years until I personally resigned to pursue business.

As far as is it viable, well, its not hard to find out. Like you can see the freelancing listing and see if one or multiple gigs together has what is needed to fit the bill.

I think something like 11% of the US population works full time as a freelancer and some people are guessing if the trend continues it will be 50% by 2020
https://nation1099.com/gig-economy-data-freelancer-study/

18 hours ago, Kohlrak said:

So what kind of costs, exactly, is one expected to accrue? Since you've been there, what's it take to deal with the credentials of business registration with the government, because you know other businesses want you to have that paper, just like a degree.

On 5/25/2018 at 12:14 AM, Boss said:

I have started most of my businesses with $0 just time. All my businesses were online based so it wasnt like I needed to rent out a physical store or deal with physical inventory myself. 

As far as business registration, Its probably best to consult with your local tyranny(gov) office for details as I'm sure its different in every state, country, etc but I personally wouldn't worry about it until you start making money and have something to lose. If you start with 0, there is 0 to lose.

18 hours ago, Kohlrak said:

That's the mentality i was in when i doubled down on learning programming. In theory, it should be enough to prove skills. In reality, proving that you wrote the code you're using or dealing with your company trying to deal with  " liabilities" becomes a problem

2

The vast majority of programmers are self-taught.  https://qz.com/649409/two-out-of-three-developers-are-self-taught-and-other-trends-from-a-survey-of-56033-developers/

The issue I see normally comes from the programmers who actually got the degree as they learned stuff that is not even relevant in the real job world. So they have to relearn and are in the gutter when it comes to debt + time wasted 
 

[ArtH]

This topic of tuition slavery is related to the entire concept of government licensing requirements; New York and lots of cities and states require licenses to be able to enter into any number of "professions" where there is no rationale for such a requirement in the first place.  It's primarily an entry restriction put in place by those who are already in the business.  This is indirect slavery given the huge number of people who might clearly have the talent and ability to perform the function of a given profession requiring a license, but the requirements of such licensing are very often educational (even Masters required) when there is absolutely no reason to exclude those with actual experience, knowledge and ability.  And of course there is rarely an opportunity to take a test in order to skip the licensing/educational requirements.  This is slavery by exclusion, not by lack of ability to perform the tasks, in many, many restricted vocational areas.  Milton Friedman, no surprise, was very much opposed to licensing restrictions.

[Kohlrak]

On 5/26/2018 at 1:00 PM, Boss said:

Yea, I haven't read their comments but its a shame if so. Mathematically, there cant be a bailout. The gov even knows this and that is why they made sure students cant file bankruptcy and that student loan debt can't go away, some even get transferred to the parent if the student dies.

As far as a crash, it would be worse for everyone in the short run but the worse will be for the people with no job/work and who relies on the gov, as their gov money will be gone and they got no work too and also they probably didn't take the time to learn how to find work.

There has to be work for them to find, first, and they'll loose out in credentialism.

On 5/26/2018 at 1:00 PM, Boss said:

When it comes to "stable" income, it depends on the contract of the gig. This kinda goes for all jobs. Like unless there is a contract signed as "stable" it's not really a thing. But there are many long-term freelancing gigs available. Like I remember working with one person for like 4 years until I personally resigned to pursue business.

As far as is it viable, well, its not hard to find out. Like you can see the freelancing listing and see if one or multiple gigs together has what is needed to fit the bill.

I think something like 11% of the US population works full time as a freelancer and some people are guessing if the trend continues it will be 50% by 2020
https://nation1099.com/gig-economy-data-freelancer-study/

The problem with economic trend prediction is they tend to be based on R-selection: assumption that there will be a sufficient supply to maintain the trend.

I'm curious: how do you go about finding gigs? The only place i've heard of before with gigs is "hackforums," but i'd rather not take gigs from a place like that.

On 5/26/2018 at 1:00 PM, Boss said:

I have started most of my businesses with $0 just time. All my businesses were online based so it wasnt like I needed to rent out a physical store or deal with physical inventory myself. 

As far as business registration, Its probably best to consult with your local tyranny(gov) office for details as I'm sure its different in every state, country, etc but I personally wouldn't worry about it until you start making money and have something to lose. If you start with 0, there is 0 to lose.

So find mom and pop businesses that're willing to pay a nephew to do it, step in on his territory, establish a name, then worry about putting a trademark or something on it?

On 5/26/2018 at 1:00 PM, Boss said:

The vast majority of programmers are self-taught.  https://qz.com/649409/two-out-of-three-developers-are-self-taught-and-other-trends-from-a-survey-of-56033-developers/

The issue I see normally comes from the programmers who actually got the degree as they learned stuff that is not even relevant in the real job world. So they have to relearn and are in the gutter when it comes to debt + time wasted 

Right. And while most programmers are self-taught, who hires them? To be fair, i haven't looked that much, but after getting turned down for IT in a small nursing home for an outsider because "you don't have enough paperwork," i realized i wasn't nuts about credentialism; but how much trouble does one have in starting their first professional gig? How does one get past the experience catch-22?

21 hours ago, ArtH said:

This topic of tuition slavery is related to the entire concept of government licensing requirements; New York and lots of cities and states require licenses to be able to enter into any number of "professions" where there is no rationale for such a requirement in the first place.  It's primarily an entry restriction put in place by those who are already in the business.  This is indirect slavery given the huge number of people who might clearly have the talent and ability to perform the function of a given profession requiring a license, but the requirements of such licensing are very often educational (even Masters required) when there is absolutely no reason to exclude those with actual experience, knowledge and ability.  And of course there is rarely an opportunity to take a test in order to skip the licensing/educational requirements.  This is slavery by exclusion, not by lack of ability to perform the tasks, in many, many restricted vocational areas.  Milton Friedman, no surprise, was very much opposed to licensing restrictions.

It's more than just direct regulations for licensing: if someone is self-taught in plumbing, and a pipe breaks, even if the plumber did everything right, if someone somehow ends up electrocuted the company gets nailed for having an unlicensed plumber, even if the plumber never even saw the pipe that broke, let alone worked on it. Though, licensing reqs are always upped under "keeping licenses up to date," but it's not a simple 2 week "get-you-up-to-date course," but usually they require, say, an RN get a doctorate's degree. I actually know an RN that is being told he has to constantly be upping his license, and the best part is that it's not even government requiring this, but Geisigner (the local monopoly on healthcare).

The term "progressive credentialism" is what you're looking for.

[S1988]

24 minutes ago, Kohlrak said:

I'm curious: how do you go about finding gigs?

Craigslist is one site you can search. That's where I got some of my freelancing jobs. But, you have to be careful since it also has scams.

Other freelancing/work from home sites you can search are Upwork and Rat Race Rebellion.  

[Kohlrak]

1 minute ago, S1988 said:

Craigslist is one site you can search. That's where I got some of my freelancing jobs. But, you have to be careful since it also has scams.

Other freelancing/work from home sites you can search are Upwork and Rat Race Rebellion.  

Thank you.