Freedomain Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 Ireland Abortion Referendum: Irish Abortion Ban Overturned | True News Watch the video
ofd Posted May 27, 2018 Posted May 27, 2018 The Libertarian / Ancap argument from first principles is pretty simple and straightforward. You have no right to be supported by someone else this is also true for embryos. A woman has, according to the NAP, every right to evict a fetus, forcing her not to violates the ownership of her body. Quote “Most discussion of the issue bogs down in minutiae about when human life begins, when or if the fetus can be considered to be alive, etc. All this is really irrelevant to the issue of the legality (again, not necessarily the morality) of abortion. The Catholic antiabortionist, for example, declares that all that he wants for the fetus is the rights of any human being—i.e., the right not to be murdered. But there is more involved here, and this is the crucial consideration. If we are to treat the fetus as having the same rights as humans, then let us ask: What human has the right to remain, unbidden, as an unwanted parasite within some other human being’s body? This is the nub of the issue: the absolute right of every person and hence every woman, to the ownership of her own body. What the mother is doing in an abortion is causing an unwanted entity within her body to be ejected from it: If the fetus dies, this does not rebut the point that no being has a right to live, unbidden, as a parasite within or upon some person’s body. The common retort that the mother either originally wanted or at least was responsible for placing the fetus within her body is, again, beside the point. Even in the stronger case where the mother originally wanted the child, the mother, as the property owner in her own body, has the right to change her mind and to eject it.”For a New Liberty, p.139
barn Posted May 27, 2018 Posted May 27, 2018 Forethoughts(4): 1. 'You get what you have paid for.' - I strongly believe, that's exactly fair, I only don't think people of Ireland have considered BOTH side of the choice. 2. If people respond to incentives (I haven't found a 'sound' enough rebuttal so far), it is but most probable that people in Ireland have abandoned the path of taking responsibility OF infidelity. 3. If some referendums are followed through, others are put in 'sandbox' mode, why bother respecting it's originator or the results for that matter. I see no logic NOT connecting the dots here, maybe I'm wrong. 4. If the efforts of our Ancestry (not my culture but I'm made of 'human stuff' too) can be overturned by such a weak argument, why couldn't we have established world-peace already? i. e. - It's like saying 5-2=3 is easy but 1+2=3 is haaard. It's 'nutty' to say the least. The facts: Previously upheld 'rule of the land' got swept away by an immensely great landslide of counter-will, the new majority of the voters... Younger citizens in Ireland voted overwhelmingly for the right to kill unborn people. Older citizens in Ireland voted overwhelmingly to oppose the killing of unborn people. The younger generation(s) way of thinking is not what their elders uphold, regardless, they have managed to change what the consequences will be for new people being brought up in Ireland from now on. This is a simplified breakdown: ° ~ roughly *2:1 ratio (723623 : 1429981), voted 'YES, KILL unborn PEOPLE' ° only 1 constituency was against (better than none) *caveats: - shame on you, Irish Women ('Wamen' too) - shame on you, Irish 18-24 yr olds - shame on you, Irish 25-34 yr olds - shame on you, Irish 35-49 yr olds - shame on you, Irish 50-63 yr olds - shame on you, Irish middle class - shame on you, Irish Working (-on more gov. power) class - Most of all, shame on you 'Dubz' From here: [link - I wish it was fake, but it isn't.] p.s. Empathising with the 'ABC of family' victims in Ireland: Good luck with crime and economic stability Ireland, you've got only yourself to blame! Not sure it'll work out less than catastrophic... I'm sorry. (sigh) You had 1 job, 1 job to do...
ofd Posted May 27, 2018 Posted May 27, 2018 Sure, but those are arguments from effect, not from first principles.
barn Posted May 27, 2018 Posted May 27, 2018 Hi @ofd (I don't know if you have seen my kind present to your ask in another thread... haven't seen you acknowledge it yet...) On 05/27/2018 at 6:29 PM, ofd said: Sure, but those are arguments from effect, not from first principles. (observation) Your ability to absorb, process and check all the content I have provided in a couple minutes is nothing short of fantastic, perhaps even magical if I believed in it. - - - 28.09.2018 - - - Howdy 'doorbell enthusiast' (voter without merit, coward) I c u. I also see, you like to use arrows instead of intelligence. 1
ofd Posted May 27, 2018 Posted May 27, 2018 Quote Your ability to absorb, process and check all the content I have provided in a couple minutes is nothing short of fantastic, perhaps even magical if I believed in it. Because your arguments stem from observations. I was arguing a priori from the NAP. For somebody who adheres to it, the negative outcomes don't matter as long as it is not violated. We can argue about the effects this bill will have and if it's moral but then we have to leave philosophy and muddy ourselves with observations, symptoms, causes and negative outcomes.
barn Posted May 27, 2018 Posted May 27, 2018 Hi @ofd Well, I could ignore my previous message and the response I got (or didn't, still). I rather not do that. Thanks but no thanks.
Kohlrak Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 13 hours ago, ofd said: Because your arguments stem from observations. I was arguing a priori from the NAP. For somebody who adheres to it, the negative outcomes don't matter as long as it is not violated. We can argue about the effects this bill will have and if it's moral but then we have to leave philosophy and muddy ourselves with observations, symptoms, causes and negative outcomes. What's the point of philosophy that doesn't have application? On another note, even if this benefits no one, those who use it will suffer consequences. Not as strong as the crime, yet there are consequences.
ofd Posted May 28, 2018 Posted May 28, 2018 Quote What's the point of philosophy that doesn't have application? Arguments a priori can be applied but the consequences don't matter, as long as the implemented actions don't violate the axioms or the deductions made from the principles. The point of philosophy is also to notice that everything comes at a cost. You can either have logically sound moral systems that pay no attention to the outcomes or you can have systems that are consistent but take effects into account.
barn Posted September 27, 2018 Posted September 27, 2018 1. remove barrier, promise 'free-er' deliberation in return. 2. voted. Now, it's time for the 'umpf', having opened the gates it's free rein... Disagree? Can't do anything about it, can you?... (coincidental, yeah, right...) ... There goes the future of Irish Ireland... or rather any hope of recovery for Ireland... Say hello to state mandated (or coerced with 'the gun') free homicide... Feminism (the rotten variety) takes over. It's m-e-n-t-a-l, and people fell for it! link ps. (please, anyone thinking of up-voting these posts... don't)
ticketyboo Posted September 28, 2018 Posted September 28, 2018 13 hours ago, barn said: Feminism (the rotten variety) takes over. It's m-e-n-t-a-l, and people fell for it! Look at those videos and photos of women celebrating and cheering when the constitution or laws changed. It looks like women cheering for a concert or something like that. Are The Beatles back? Was a cure for cancer discovered? Did someone land on Mars? Victory in Europe Day? Nope. They were celebrating killing their fetuses. Western civilization is a death cult.
barn Posted September 28, 2018 Posted September 28, 2018 15 hours ago, ticketyboo said: Look at those videos and photos of women celebrating and cheering when the constitution or laws changed. I know. There are a lot more low quality and impressionable women (or men) out there. Probably has been like this for many many thousands of years (for perspectives). Keep in mind though, that's not everyone ('even in' Ireland). I would hope that you have already seen evidence of that here, on the forum to name just one example. If I may suggest something I tell myself too... Mind your thoughts and see clearly. Make sure (that's why I suggested elsewhere to you "Keep the conversation alive") that you become the opposite of that, vigilant and disciplined. That's an amazing start, it will bring you closer to people with similar goals and perspectives in the 'walk the walk' sense. (me thinks/'walks')
ticketyboo Posted September 29, 2018 Posted September 29, 2018 10 hours ago, barn said: Keep in mind though, that's not everyone ('even in' Ireland) It was enough to change their constitution and laws. And decimate their birth rate. And replace their population with migrants. https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/02/24/irish-mass-migration/
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