Stefan talking about sleep training

[oleom]

I would like to know if Stefan ever talked about sleep training his daughter, the reason why, and how he did it, and also the philosophy around it.

I heard he briefly mentioned it in one of his podcasts, but I assume/hope he has been talking about it more than that. 

[barn]

Hi @oleom

Welcome to posting on the board...

Interesting question you've got there.

From which podcast do you think you've heard it mentioned?

Are you a regular listener?

How many podcast have you listened to in full approx.?

Barnsley

 

 

E:dit ->

->   An interesting looking book about the various approaches to the Ferber Method.

->   Question 3: [1:57:09] from 3932 (mp3-link) is probably going to be an interesting discussion to listen to.

->   Overview of the various approaches to the Ferber Method

[oleom]

2 hours ago, barn said:

Hi @oleom

Welcome to posting on the board...

Interesting question you've got there.

From which podcast do you think you've heard it mentioned?

Are you a regular listener?

How many podcast have you listened to in full approx.?

Barnsley

 

Hi thank you very much

I listen every now and then, when I got time.

I heard it from one of his podcasts about raising children/peaceful parenting, can't remember from which episode though. 

 

 

[barn]

22 minutes ago, oleom said:

 

Hi thank you very much

I listen every now and then, when I got time.

I heard it from one of his podcasts about raising children/peaceful parenting, can't remember from which episode though.

That's ok (not remembering).

I've never heard anything like it... (I'm no extraordinary listener, but) from the years and years of listening... nothing I can muster comes remotely close to the suggestion you'd put forward.

Are you sure?

[oleom]

10 hours ago, barn said:

That's ok (not remembering).

I've never heard anything like it... (I'm no extraordinary listener, but) from the years and years of listening... nothing I can muster comes remotely close to the suggestion you'd put forward.

Are you sure?

 

Yes I am 100% sure he did sleep training with his daughter. And he mentioned it briefly, actually come to think of it, he might have mentioned it more than one time, but as I said, very very briefly (I think he mentioned that his daughter was crying a lot during that period, and that would certainly go against the non force principle). And I was looking for more information about his experience about it. The philosophy, reasons, and how he went bout it.

 

 

[barn]

46 minutes ago, oleom said:

Yes I am 100% sure he did sleep training with his daughter. And he mentioned it briefly, actually come to think of it, he might have mentioned it more than one time, but as I said, very very briefly (I think he mentioned that his daughter was crying a lot during that period, and that would certainly go against the non force principle). And I was looking for more information about his experience about it. The philosophy, reasons, and how he went bout it.

Actually, you're right. My appologies! I just remembered that he did speak about something along the lines of 'being hard to... the other room... smthing, smthing.'

I believe it was within the context of speaking about a caller's (who I recall was a woman) brother/sister and how the parents didn't teach him/her independence... I believe.

p. s (my bad, I had completely misunderstood your question)

[barn]

Hi @oleom

So, I tried connecting some dots, here's what I found...

I think Question 3: [1:57:09] from 3932 (mp3-link) is probably going to be a good start expanding on your ask.

Is this what you were looking for?

[Elizbaeth]

I did cry it out with both boys. I wish I had done it sooner with my oldest. I was insanely, utterly exhausted after 11 months of waking up every 2 hours. It was hard to even feel connected to him at times, because I was so just tired that I would feel nauseous waking up in the mornings. I finally just snapped and quit responding to him during the night. After about a week, he slept perfectly through the night and was in much better moods during the day and I was able to have my own sleep and enjoy my time with him.

 

My second son slept in my bed with me until he was about 9 months, and I first transitioned him to his own crib and then let him cry it out, too. I actually felt so bonded to him from the natural birth and cosleeping that I was 100% confident that he was crying just because he was angry. I never worried that he felt like I had abandoned him, which was a big concern of mine for my first son (whose birth was very difficult and I never coslept with him).

Other moms will treat crying it out as child abuse, but unless you’re willing to be totally at your child’s mercy for years and years, without any care for yourself (and sanity goes out the window after months of sleep deprivation), I don’t see how crying it out is avoidable. The mom on-call during the night could easily lose her mind, and it’s very hard to be loving and responsive without sleep. 

[oleom]

On 6/12/2018 at 11:21 AM, barn said:

Actually, you're right. My appologies! I just remembered that he did speak about something along the lines of 'being hard to... the other room... smthing, smthing.'

I believe it was within the context of speaking about a caller's (who I recall was a woman) brother/sister and how the parents didn't teach him/her independence... I believe.

p. s (my bad, I had completely misunderstood your question)

 

No problem!

On 6/12/2018 at 1:16 PM, barn said:

Hi @oleom

So, I tried connecting some dots, here's what I found...

I think Question 3: [1:57:09] from 3932 (mp3-link) is probably going to be a good start expanding on your ask.

 Is this what you were looking for?

Interesting, he talked about it here for sure, but not really in depth, I am still looking for more information about how Stefan did it.

And thank you for taking the time and find this link for me!

[oleom]

7 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I did cry it out with both boys. I wish I had done it sooner with my oldest. I was insanely, utterly exhausted after 11 months of waking up every 2 hours. It was hard to even feel connected to him at times, because I was so just tired that I would feel nauseous waking up in the mornings. I finally just snapped and quit responding to him during the night. After about a week, he slept perfectly through the night and was in much better moods during the day and I was able to have my own sleep and enjoy my time with him.

 

My second son slept in my bed with me until he was about 9 months, and I first transitioned him to his own crib and then let him cry it out, too. I actually felt so bonded to him from the natural birth and cosleeping that I was 100% confident that he was crying just because he was angry. I never worried that he felt like I had abandoned him, which was a big concern of mine for my first son (whose birth was very difficult and I never coslept with him).

Other moms will treat crying it out as child abuse, but unless you’re willing to be totally at your child’s mercy for years and years, without any care for yourself (and sanity goes out the window after months of sleep deprivation), I don’t see how crying it out is avoidable. The mom on-call during the night could easily lose her mind, and it’s very hard to be loving and responsive without sleep. 

Yes I know, we have a 9 months old son who is waking up a lot during night, and he sleeps with us at night, so that is why I am looking for information how Stefan did the sleep training.

Yes crying it out seems like a somewhat painful method, and we would like to avoid it as much as possible, but maybe it is unavoidable. But if so, try to do it as smooth as possible.

And also thank you for sharing your experience, it is also very useful information for us, how old are your sons now if I may ask?

[barn]

5 minutes ago, oleom said:

I am still looking for more information about how Stefan did it.

I don't have any more leads, if you do find it from him, will you drop an update?

[oleom]

1 hour ago, barn said:

I don't have any more leads, if you do find it from him, will you drop an update?

 

Yes for sure! Once again, thank you!

 

Also, anyone else, have any more info on this? 

 

 

[Existing Alternatives]

Sleep training seems to be a controversial topic. Stefan did mention it a couple of times, but never in details. The episode mentioned above is probably as detailed as it ever got. There were a few threads here and on FB about it.

Personally, I'm a strong co-sleeping proponent. To me, it is more effective, natural and more NAP -aligned. 

[oleom]

On 6/16/2018 at 2:51 PM, Existing Alternatives said:

Sleep training seems to be a controversial topic. Stefan did mention it a couple of times, but never in details. The episode mentioned above is probably as detailed as it ever got. There were a few threads here and on FB about it.

Personally, I'm a strong co-sleeping proponent. To me, it is more effective, natural and more NAP -aligned. 

I got the feeling that (and I can be wrong about it, also one of the reasons why I wanted to know more about it) Stefan did it because he thought it was needed, rather than accepting it as a good strategy aligned with his own ideas and ethics concerning good parenting. 

Did a search around this forum and didn't find any discussions regarding this topic

So in your opinion you think it is best if the child is sleeping with the parents, up until what age? 

[neeeel]

3 hours ago, oleom said:

I got the feeling that (and I can be wrong about it, also one of the reasons why I wanted to know more about it) Stefan did it because he thought it was needed, rather than accepting it as a good strategy aligned with his own ideas and ethics concerning good parenting. 

Did a search around this forum and didn't find any discussions regarding this topic

So in your opinion you think it is best if the child is sleeping with the parents, up until what age? 

As far as I understand it, they found it so difficult to deal with the disruption and lack of sleep that they felt they had no alternative. Not that I know much about it, but thats what Ive gathered from the little I have heard.

[Elizbaeth]

On 6/14/2018 at 6:54 AM, oleom said:

Yes I know, we have a 9 months old son who is waking up a lot during night, and he sleeps with us at night, so that is why I am looking for information how Stefan did the sleep training.

 Yes crying it out seems like a somewhat painful method, and we would like to avoid it as much as possible, but maybe it is unavoidable. But if so, try to do it as smooth as possible.

And also thank you for sharing your experience, it is also very useful information for us, how old are your sons now if I may ask?

It’s very stressful to hear your child cry. If you do it you need to decide it’s what you’re going to do and then you need to stick to it. The only thing worse than letting your child cry himself to sleep is interfering and making it all for nothing. 

 

My first son son was always in his own crib, so there was never any transition from my bed to crib. I simply quit getting up in the night. With my second son, he co-slept with us and it was wonderful for a while. We all got sleep and I felt very connected. But then around 9 months he kept punching and kicking and punching all night, and I decided I couldn’t take any more. At first I just put him in a pack-n-play beside our bed, and got up a few times when he’d fuss, and then after about a week of that I moved him to his room and went full-on cry it out. There’s something called a “gentle cry it out” method, but when I used it it only made things worse. My son seemed to adjust a lot faster when I didn’t keep going in the room, reminding him of the fact that I was not going to pick him up. 

 

My my oldest is now 2.5 years and my youngest is 11 months. They both sleep very well now unless they are sick or scared. 

[Jsbrads]

In the sling is scientifically the best way to care for an infant. It is very daunting in the modern world of clocks and what nots. 

[oleom]

On 6/19/2018 at 3:12 AM, Elizbaeth said:

It’s very stressful to hear your child cry. If you do it you need to decide it’s what you’re going to do and then you need to stick to it. The only thing worse than letting your child cry himself to sleep is interfering and making it all for nothing. 

 

My first son son was always in his own crib, so there was never any transition from my bed to crib. I simply quit getting up in the night. With my second son, he co-slept with us and it was wonderful for a while. We all got sleep and I felt very connected. But then around 9 months he kept punching and kicking and punching all night, and I decided I couldn’t take any more. At first I just put him in a pack-n-play beside our bed, and got up a few times when he’d fuss, and then after about a week of that I moved him to his room and went full-on cry it out. There’s something called a “gentle cry it out” method, but when I used it it only made things worse. My son seemed to adjust a lot faster when I didn’t keep going in the room, reminding him of the fact that I was not going to pick him up. 

 

My my oldest is now 2.5 years and my youngest is 11 months. They both sleep very well now unless they are sick or scared. 

I have heard many people say it is bad to interfere when the baby is crying. But we really don't know what the long term effect is on the child when not listening to it's crying, even though it is for a limited amount of time. 

Any known studies made on this subject? 

Can you quickly just tell me how you went about doing the gentle cry out method? I think it might be the way I want to go about doing it with my own baby, at least at first.

[oleom]

On 6/18/2018 at 7:12 PM, neeeel said:

As far as I understand it, they found it so difficult to deal with the disruption and lack of sleep that they felt they had no alternative. Not that I know much about it, but thats what Ive gathered from the little I have heard.

This is what I kind of thought as well. And the reason why he never seemed to have covered it in depth might be, cause he felt he could not justify the sleep training from an ethical and philosophical stand point.

 

 

 

[barn]

59 minutes ago, oleom said:

This is what I kind of thought as well. And the reason why he never seemed to have covered it in depth might be, cause he felt he could not justify the sleep training from an ethical and philosophical stand point.

I highly doubt that.

Think of the pain that a tooth-ache represents as a simili, we rather suffer the short term unease for the long term benefits... not to mention, a baby with incomplete self-awareness has little chance (actually none most cases under 14 months old from what I've read) choosing for its own good.

That's exactly why parents doing the method Stefan Molyneux has also employed, are thinking 100% about the 'what's the most benefit for the child, regardless my own discomfort' a superior approach.

[neeeel]

1 hour ago, barn said:

I highly doubt that.

Think of the pain that a tooth-ache represents as a simili, we rather suffer the short term unease for the long term benefits... not to mention, a baby with incomplete self-awareness has little chance (actually none most cases under 14 months old from what I've read) choosing for its own good.

That's exactly why parents doing the method Stefan Molyneux has also employed, are thinking 100% about the 'what's the most benefit for the child, regardless my own discomfort' a superior approach.

Nice mind reading. I dont see how you can claim they were thinking 100% about that.

[oleom]

1 hour ago, barn said:

I highly doubt that.

Think of the pain that a tooth-ache represents as a simili, we rather suffer the short term unease for the long term benefits... not to mention, a baby with incomplete self-awareness has little chance (actually none most cases under 14 months old from what I've read) choosing for its own good.

That's exactly why parents doing the method Stefan Molyneux has also employed, are thinking 100% about the 'what's the most benefit for the child, regardless my own discomfort' a superior approach.

Tooth ache is a natural event in a human beings development, and we as parents should, during this stressful time, do everything we can to support and help the child go through this development stage, leaving a baby alone to cry for a long time, causing it a lot of stress and anxiety is not necessary a natural part of the development. 

Furthermore, I really don't see any long term benefit of causing the child unnecessary stress and anxiety at all in the short term.

Also, what is really the most beneficial to the child? Is there any known studies showing babies doesn't get hurt in this sleep training (the one based upon crying it out until it sleeps) process? How do we know this process is better than a more peaceful approach where the baby will not cry at all?

 

[barn]

5 hours ago, oleom said:

Tooth ache is a natural event in a human beings development, and we as parents should, during this stressful time, do everything we can to support and help the child go through this development stage, leaving a baby alone to cry for a long time, causing it a lot of stress and anxiety is not necessary a natural part of the development.  

Is it possible that your focus needs adjustment from 'short term, relieving anxiety' to -> 'enduring short term anxiety in order for long term and stable benefit' entirely for the child's sake?

as in: prevention is always superior to   >   quick fix

(pulling out a bad tooth compared to   >   temporary, local anaesthesia for a toothache)

5 hours ago, oleom said:

Furthermore, I really don't see any long term benefit of causing the child unnecessary stress and anxiety at all in the short term. 

Isn't independently sleeping an uninterrupted night's dream is a greater benefit?

Besides, in which scenario can a parent (btw, the child rests better alone too, gets a more consistent rest for the same reason) have more energy to be a more attentive caretaker during the day :

a.  sleeping with interruptions due to an additional person being there

b. sleeping casually, knowing the child's comfortable in its environment sleeping uninterrupted

5 hours ago, oleom said:

Also, what is really the most beneficial to the child?

Principle wise, I'd say that which allows for the most independence age appropriately, self-expression free of any dependence (age appropriately again).

5 hours ago, oleom said:

Is there any known studies showing babies doesn't get hurt in this sleep training (the one based upon crying it out until it sleeps) process? 

I'm not a researcher and will be keeping an eye on the things you find and post in the future. If you do.

[barn]

On 06/20/2018 at 10:55 PM, neeeel said:

Nice mind reading. I dont see how you can claim they were thinking 100% about that.

Thanks, no thanks.

This is the reason why I prefer not to engage with you :

 

E:dit

Edited June 22, 2018 by barn
Hello voter, yes I saw your opinion.

[neeeel]

You claim a lot of things that arent true in that thread as well

[oleom]

21 hours ago, barn said:

Is it possible that your focus needs adjustment from 'short term, relieving anxiety' to -> 'enduring short term anxiety in order for long term and stable benefit' entirely for the child's sake?

as in: prevention is always superior to   >   quick fix

(pulling out a bad tooth compared to   >   temporary, local anaesthesia for a toothache)

Isn't independently sleeping an uninterrupted night's dream is a greater benefit?

Besides, in which scenario can a parent (btw, the child rests better alone too, gets a more consistent rest for the same reason) have more energy to be a more attentive caretaker during the day :

a.  sleeping with interruptions due to an additional person being there

b. sleeping casually, knowing the child's comfortable in its environment sleeping uninterrupted

Principle wise, I'd say that which allows for the most independence age appropriately, self-expression free of any dependence (age appropriately again).

I'm not a researcher and will be keeping an eye on the things you find and post in the future. If you do.

You are missing the point, if we knew for sure that there were no harm done with sleep training (long term), I would be the first to sign up and let the child cry, for exactly that reason, short term suffer for long term benefit, however as there seem to be no studies done, we don't know.

Independence is very important, but at what costs? What if the stress and anxiety do cause harm to the brain long term.

And do we know for sure that a kid who co sleep 1 year longer will be less independent long term? 

And if all studies show that indeed babies should sleep in their own bed, what if there was a method not involving crying, or at least mitigate crying, stress and anxiety? I would be very interested in that method.

[oleom]

double post

[barn]

On 06/21/2018 at 10:10 PM, oleom said:

You are missing the point, if we knew for sure that there were no harm done with sleep training (long term), I would be the first to sign up and let the child cry, for exactly that reason, short term suffer for long term benefit, however as there seem to be no studies done, we don't know. 

That's all-right, I'm open to having my thinking updated by (a) superior argument(s). Please provide proofs for workable solutions to your ideas.

On 06/21/2018 at 10:10 PM, oleom said:

Independence is very important, but at what costs? What if the stress and anxiety do cause harm to the brain long term. 

Would you agree, that bad habits can just as well cause long term negative consequences? (i.e. - deeply rooted and never corrected habits, for example extended 'dummy' use, not helping the development of communicating of needs, learning to be able to seek/invent engaging activities sometimes independently... etc.)

On a slightly different note, that's a good question ("degree of cost"), and to my mind it boils down to a fully free individual, not withheld by erroneous beliefs, capable to fully express its needs without curbing it due to the preferences of others (self-assertion).

i. e. :

I want to do X, it is the right thing to do I'm convinced (with reason & evidence) but I know it'll upset person B so I rather not pursue it. (dependent)

contrasted with

I want to do X, it is the right thing to do I'm convinced (with reason & evidence) but I know it'll upset person B, so apparently it'll cause inconvenience but I'll have to do it regardless. (free, assertive)

On 06/21/2018 at 10:10 PM, oleom said:

And do we know for sure that a kid who co sleep 1 year longer will be less independent long term?  

Given how language skills are vastly superior with an added year of the parents' efforts in exposing the child to stories, interaction in speech (stay at home, involved parenting), I have no doubt in my mind that the child gains a much greater benefit. Also, the first 3-4 years (from what I gather) translates to 'multiple years' in effect, the most important to having good foundations.

On 06/21/2018 at 10:10 PM, oleom said:

And if all studies show that indeed babies should sleep in their own bed, what if there was a method not involving crying, or at least mitigate crying, stress and anxiety? I would be very interested in that method. 

Oh, yes absolutely. If there's a method to loosing weight and then keeping it off without exercising harder at first, then eating consciously-staying fit, I'd be interested in that.

This is a long shot, an unverified assumption, my own idea... Is it remotely possible that you had trouble dealing with your own anxiety and that could be affecting your pool of available options in your mind? (as in: 'skewed' objectivity if/when it was preferable/needed)

[Elizbaeth]

On 6/20/2018 at 5:51 PM, oleom said:

Tooth ache is a natural event in a human beings development, and we as parents should, during this stressful time, do everything we can to support and help the child go through this development stage, leaving a baby alone to cry for a long time, causing it a lot of stress and anxiety is not necessary a natural part of the development. 

Furthermore, I really don't see any long term benefit of causing the child unnecessary stress and anxiety at all in the short term.

Also, what is really the most beneficial to the child? Is there any known studies showing babies doesn't get hurt in this sleep training (the one based upon crying it out until it sleeps) process? How do we know this process is better than a more peaceful approach where the baby will not cry at all?

 

This is what I especially struggled with with my first son. I was terrified that if I allowed him to just cry in his room, all alone and in the dark, that it would totally scar him and flood his brain with all sorts of stress hormones and set off a domino cascade of negative reactions. I was a baby-wearing, constant contact, exceedingly tactile mom to my infant, and he was probably smothered with my insecurity and anxiety to nurture the crap out of him. The constant nagging anxiety of searching the internet for more information about what is good or what is harmful for your kid, and always helicoptering around them in the hopes that you will prevent them from feeling pain for from feeling scared of abandoned, it a dead-end street. I think a strict aversion to letting them cry it out at night is part of that hovering. If you can find a more gentle, easy way to do it, then yes! Do that! But maybe - for many different reasons - that doesn't work. I believe that this is where intuition and a good parent-baby bond is very helpful. Only the caregiver can really know if the baby is crying because it is scared, hungry, uncomfortable, or because it is angry and upset that the routine has changed. Sternness, coupled with an intact intuition and empathy, will allow the caregiver to make mature, well-formed decisions about whether or not letting their child cry it out at night is harmful or beneficial. 

I think I had created a cycle where he quite literally could not fall asleep unless I was actively bouncing, nursing, or rocking him. This made it so that he would wake up every 2 hours (the average length of a baby's sleep cycle), and he was unable to get rest unless I was doing all the work for him. This made me and my son extremely exhausted. Try living or almost a year with only 2 hours of sleep at a time, and in between those 2 hour "naps," you spend usually a minimum of 30 minutes awake, working to help get everyone asleep again. I was almost unable to function, and my son was quite tire,d too, because he did not get good, consistent, solid sleep. I think the lack of sleep made me struggle with some depression, because I remember, one afternoon, my son cried about something insignificant, and I felt absolutely nothing for him. At best, I felt indifferent in that moment. I was too tired to play, and I just sort of stumbled through my day hoping to catch a small amount of sleep before the torture would start all over again. 

One night I snapped and just didn't get him. He cried - really hard at first - and then he cried really hard the next night. And then he cried less and less each night and in about a week he sleep from 7 pm -7 am, and he would wake up happy, smiling, and feeling good, and I was happy to see him and felt able to play, talk with, cuddle, and spend my energy and time with him  because I actually had energy. My affection for him skyrocketed through the roof and I felt incredibly in love with him, and he was bubbly, engaged, and so enjoyable and fun to be around. It was really good for both of us. 

Families are ecosystems. My job as the mother is to take care of the children. It does not do the children any favors if I am so spent and exhausted that I am literally fighting depression and antipathy. I can't sacrifice my own well-being 100% to others. I absolutely have to take care of myself. I'm not talking about taking care of myself as an excuse to be lavish or frivolous or lazy. I'm saying that I must give myself the same courtesy of care that I would give to others. It is only right and fair to me, and I cannot be a good person if I am constantly, systematically neglecting my most basic needs. 

[Elizbaeth]

On 6/20/2018 at 6:04 PM, barn said:

Is it possible that your focus needs adjustment from 'short term, relieving anxiety' to -> 'enduring short term anxiety in order for long term and stable benefit' entirely for the child's sake?

as in: prevention is always superior to   >   quick fix

(pulling out a bad tooth compared to   >   temporary, local anaesthesia for a toothache)

Isn't independently sleeping an uninterrupted night's dream is a greater benefit?

Besides, in which scenario can a parent (btw, the child rests better alone too, gets a more consistent rest for the same reason) have more energy to be a more attentive caretaker during the day :

a.  sleeping with interruptions due to an additional person being there

b. sleeping casually, knowing the child's comfortable in its environment sleeping uninterrupted

Principle wise, I'd say that which allows for the most independence age appropriately, self-expression free of any dependence (age appropriately again).

I'm not a researcher and will be keeping an eye on the things you find and post in the future. If you do.

 

@barn I only have my personal anecdote, but I did not want to let my son cry it out because, well, hearing him cry caused me extreme anxiety. My blood pressure would immediately spike when I head him cry, and I would feel unable to focus on almost anything else until I got to him and figured out what was making him cry and how to fix it. When I let him cry it out, it was tough to lay there, fighting my own anxiety. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that I suffered much worse than my son did. 

 

And yes - I think my son was much happier once he was sleeping through the night without interruption. Not all children have the same personality, and some may do better with physical closeness nearby, but letting my son cry it out seemed like a relief and blessing to our whole family. Now he loves to get into bed at night, and only wakes up if he is sick or there is something wrong in some way. 

[barn]

@Elizbaeth

I'm glad your sons are through it. You couldn't have seen / known about my post, the one soon to be released.

E:dit

Edited June 23, 2018 by barn
It did a day later. Find it above Elizbaeth's, before this post.

[neeeel]

5 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

This is what I especially struggled with with my first son. I was terrified that if I allowed him to just cry in his room, all alone and in the dark, that it would totally scar him and flood his brain with all sorts of stress hormones and set off a domino cascade of negative reactions. I was a baby-wearing, constant contact, exceedingly tactile mom to my infant, and he was probably smothered with my insecurity and anxiety to nurture the crap out of him. The constant nagging anxiety of searching the internet for more information about what is good or what is harmful for your kid, and always helicoptering around them in the hopes that you will prevent them from feeling pain for from feeling scared of abandoned, it a dead-end street. I think a strict aversion to letting them cry it out at night is part of that hovering. If you can find a more gentle, easy way to do it, then yes! Do that! But maybe - for many different reasons - that doesn't work. I believe that this is where intuition and a good parent-baby bond is very helpful. Only the caregiver can really know if the baby is crying because it is scared, hungry, uncomfortable, or because it is angry and upset that the routine has changed. Sternness, coupled with an intact intuition and empathy, will allow the caregiver to make mature, well-formed decisions about whether or not letting their child cry it out at night is harmful or beneficial. 

I think I had created a cycle where he quite literally could not fall asleep unless I was actively bouncing, nursing, or rocking him. This made it so that he would wake up every 2 hours (the average length of a baby's sleep cycle), and he was unable to get rest unless I was doing all the work for him. This made me and my son extremely exhausted. Try living or almost a year with only 2 hours of sleep at a time, and in between those 2 hour "naps," you spend usually a minimum of 30 minutes awake, working to help get everyone asleep again. I was almost unable to function, and my son was quite tire,d too, because he did not get good, consistent, solid sleep. I think the lack of sleep made me struggle with some depression, because I remember, one afternoon, my son cried about something insignificant, and I felt absolutely nothing for him. At best, I felt indifferent in that moment. I was too tired to play, and I just sort of stumbled through my day hoping to catch a small amount of sleep before the torture would start all over again. 

One night I snapped and just didn't get him. He cried - really hard at first - and then he cried really hard the next night. And then he cried less and less each night and in about a week he sleep from 7 pm -7 am, and he would wake up happy, smiling, and feeling good, and I was happy to see him and felt able to play, talk with, cuddle, and spend my energy and time with him  because I actually had energy. My affection for him skyrocketed through the roof and I felt incredibly in love with him, and he was bubbly, engaged, and so enjoyable and fun to be around. It was really good for both of us. 

Families are ecosystems. My job as the mother is to take care of the children. It does not do the children any favors if I am so spent and exhausted that I am literally fighting depression and antipathy. I can't sacrifice my own well-being 100% to others. I absolutely have to take care of myself. I'm not talking about taking care of myself as an excuse to be lavish or frivolous or lazy. I'm saying that I must give myself the same courtesy of care that I would give to others. It is only right and fair to me, and I cannot be a good person if I am constantly, systematically neglecting my most basic needs. 

I can imagine how tough it was, and that in your situation, I would try anything, even something that, before getting into your situation, I would have sworn never to do ( ie, I dont have kids, and I would swear that I would never do cry it out or let them cry and not go to them, but I can see that if I was in that nightmare, I might do what I swore never to do)

Did you always sleep in separate rooms?

[oleom]

14 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

This is what I especially struggled with with my first son. I was terrified that if I allowed him to just cry in his room, all alone and in the dark, that it would totally scar him and flood his brain with all sorts of stress hormones and set off a domino cascade of negative reactions. I was a baby-wearing, constant contact, exceedingly tactile mom to my infant, and he was probably smothered with my insecurity and anxiety to nurture the crap out of him. The constant nagging anxiety of searching the internet for more information about what is good or what is harmful for your kid, and always helicoptering around them in the hopes that you will prevent them from feeling pain for from feeling scared of abandoned, it a dead-end street. I think a strict aversion to letting them cry it out at night is part of that hovering. If you can find a more gentle, easy way to do it, then yes! Do that! But maybe - for many different reasons - that doesn't work. I believe that this is where intuition and a good parent-baby bond is very helpful. Only the caregiver can really know if the baby is crying because it is scared, hungry, uncomfortable, or because it is angry and upset that the routine has changed. Sternness, coupled with an intact intuition and empathy, will allow the caregiver to make mature, well-formed decisions about whether or not letting their child cry it out at night is harmful or beneficial. 

 I think I had created a cycle where he quite literally could not fall asleep unless I was actively bouncing, nursing, or rocking him. This made it so that he would wake up every 2 hours (the average length of a baby's sleep cycle), and he was unable to get rest unless I was doing all the work for him. This made me and my son extremely exhausted. Try living or almost a year with only 2 hours of sleep at a time, and in between those 2 hour "naps," you spend usually a minimum of 30 minutes awake, working to help get everyone asleep again. I was almost unable to function, and my son was quite tire,d too, because he did not get good, consistent, solid sleep. I think the lack of sleep made me struggle with some depression, because I remember, one afternoon, my son cried about something insignificant, and I felt absolutely nothing for him. At best, I felt indifferent in that moment. I was too tired to play, and I just sort of stumbled through my day hoping to catch a small amount of sleep before the torture would start all over again. 

One night I snapped and just didn't get him. He cried - really hard at first - and then he cried really hard the next night. And then he cried less and less each night and in about a week he sleep from 7 pm -7 am, and he would wake up happy, smiling, and feeling good, and I was happy to see him and felt able to play, talk with, cuddle, and spend my energy and time with him  because I actually had energy. My affection for him skyrocketed through the roof and I felt incredibly in love with him, and he was bubbly, engaged, and so enjoyable and fun to be around. It was really good for both of us. 

Families are ecosystems. My job as the mother is to take care of the children. It does not do the children any favors if I am so spent and exhausted that I am literally fighting depression and antipathy. I can't sacrifice my own well-being 100% to others. I absolutely have to take care of myself. I'm not talking about taking care of myself as an excuse to be lavish or frivolous or lazy. I'm saying that I must give myself the same courtesy of care that I would give to others. It is only right and fair to me, and I cannot be a good person if I am constantly, systematically neglecting my most basic needs. 

Yes I totally agree with most of what you are saying. And interesting to hear your story. Thank you.

[oleom]

14 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

 

And yes - I think my son was much happier once he was sleeping through the night without interruption. Not all children have the same personality, and some may do better with physical closeness nearby, but letting my son cry it out seemed like a relief and blessing to our whole family. Now he loves to get into bed at night, and only wakes up if he is sick or there is something wrong in some way. 

I hear simliar stories being told many times, so it makes me more comfortable to maybe give it a try.

[oleom]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:35 AM, barn said:

That's all-right, I'm open to having my thinking updated by (a) superior argument(s). Please provide proofs for workable solutions to your ideas.

Would you agree, that bad habits can just as well cause long term negative consequences? (i.e. - deeply rooted and never corrected habits, for example extended 'dummy' use, not helping the development of communicating of needs, learning to be able to seek/invent engaging activities sometimes independently... etc.)

On a slightly different note, that's a good question ("degree of cost"), and to my mind it boils down to a fully free individual, not withheld by erroneous beliefs, capable to fully express its needs without curbing it due to the preferences of others (self-assertion).

i. e. :

I want to do X, it is the right thing to do I'm convinced (with reason & evidence) but I know it'll upset person B so I rather not pursue it. (dependent)

contrasted with

I want to do X, it is the right thing to do I'm convinced (with reason & evidence) but I know it'll upset person B, so apparently it'll cause inconvenience but I'll have to do it regardless. (free, assertive)

Given how language skills are vastly superior with an added year of the parents' efforts in exposing the child to stories, interaction in speech (stay at home, involved parenting), I have no doubt in my mind that the child gains a much greater benefit. Also, the first 3-4 years (from what I gather) translates to 'multiple years' in effect, the most important to having good foundations.

Oh, yes absolutely. If there's a method to loosing weight and then keeping it off without exercising harder at first, then eating consciously-staying fit, I'd be interested in that.

This is a long shot, an unverified assumption, my own idea... Is it remotely possible that you had trouble dealing with your own anxiety and that could be affecting your pool of available options in your mind? (as in: 'skewed' objectivity if/when it was preferable/needed)

"That's all-right, I'm open to having my thinking updated"

I do not disagree with you, I also think short term suffering, (if we are sure, there are no long term consequences) are to prefer if it shows it has long term benefits.

No need to be all defensive about it

Bad habits can of course cause negative consequences, only a fool would disagree.

Free individual, yes, the question is not wether or not it would be wrong to upset the baby and let it cry, if there is enough proof and evidence that the baby will indeed not suffer any long term consequences, I would be perfectly fine with short term suffering, the problem is, we simply don't know what the long term consequences are. That is the real question here, and what is important.