barn Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 1 hour ago, oleom said: "That's all-right, I'm open to having my thinking updated" I do not disagree with you, I also think short term suffering, (if we are sure, there are no long term consequences) are to prefer if it shows it has long term benefits. No need to be all defensive about it Bad habits can of course cause negative consequences, only a fool would disagree. Free individual, yes, the question is not wether or not it would be wrong to upset the baby and let it cry, if there is enough proof and evidence that the baby will indeed not suffer any long term consequences, I would be perfectly fine with short term suffering, the problem is, we simply don't know what the long term consequences are. That is the real question here, and what is important. That's a reasonable response, except for the part I highlighted. Which I am unable to correlate/translate, due to you not quoting the part that you perceived as such, or forgot... variations, etc. can't tell. I asked about the long term consequences (where you said ",only a fool...") , because I'm not sure if you considered what could be the ones manifested when sleep training is done at a later age, I couldn't see any evidence, where you have mentioned them/it. If you did, I probably missed it, please pass a link or share it with me. Thanks. I'll be checking upon the thread, and if you have reason & evidence regarding...-> referring to : "... doing the gentle cry out method? I think it might be the way I want to go about doing it with my own baby, at least at first."-> On 06/22/2018 at 8:35 AM, barn said: On 06/21/2018 at 10:10 PM, oleom said: You are missing the point, if we knew for sure that there were no harm done with sleep training (long term), I would be the first to sign up and let the child cry, for exactly that reason, short term suffer for long term benefit, however as there seem to be no studies done, we don't know. That's all-right, I'm open to having my thinking updated by (a) superior argument(s). Please provide proofs for workable solutions to your ideas. ->.. I'm happy to revisit the topic together. I hope you and your husband, when it's appropriate, choose the right solution for him (baby boy). Also want to mention, it's admirable that you care for the topic and the pro-activity part too. I like parents that focus on the wellbeing of their child(ren) , even if sometimes that can be challenging.
neeeel Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/moral-landscapes/201407/parents-misled-cry-it-out-sleep-training-reports https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-development/sleep-training/ https://aasm.org/resources/practiceparameters/review_nightwakingschildren.pdf https://aasm.org/resources/practiceparameters/review_nightwakingschildren.pdf from the first link: Points in Brief (read details below): 1. Research does not support what sleep training reports assume: That sleep training “is fine” for baby —it’s NOT, even when the baby stops protesting. That cry-it-out (extinction of crying) works at home—it does NOT. Age and development level of the child does not matter for sleep training. WRONG. Research shows no harm for babies—NOT: it doesn’t even examine harm to babies! Sleep training research is well done—NOT: poor designs, fidelity, analysis show it is UNRELIABLE 2. Sleep training reports gloss over the trauma and toxic stress that is done to babies during sleep training, when the brain and body are developing rapidly. Reports overlook how ignoring a baby at night is a form of NEGLECT. 3. Most parents are not comfortable with cry-it-out (extinction of crying) and they should not be. Babies are meant to be with caregivers all the time. Their wellbeing is undermined otherwise. There are also links supporting cry it out, or at least saying ( as above) that its not harmful. You would have to look deeper into them, and the research behind them. The idea that we need to teach children ( and especially babies) independence seems crazy to me. Children start off TOTALLY dependent. If their needs are met, they will have a base on which to move to greater independence, with support from their parents, of course. Forcing independence by removal of care and attention, is not teaching independence at all.
barn Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 (edited) Hi thinkers and alike, Disclaimer: I'm not a parent, therefore I 'do not have a skin' in the game as parents do. I'm interested in reason & evidence. Hence the normal font too. Additionally, I have no information on the specifics other than my own childhood, how others do it in reality. Perhaps the following was useful to share, might serve as a general outline to the Ferber Method, Ferberization summarized(link to ref.) "Dr. Richard Ferber discusses and outlines a wide range of practices to teach an infant to sleep. The term ferberization is now popularly used to refer to the following techniques: ° Take steps to prepare the baby to sleep. This includes night-time rituals and day-time activities. ° At bedtime, leave the child in bed and leave the room. ° Return at progressively increasing intervals to comfort the baby (without picking him or her up). For example, on the first night, some scenarios call for returning first after three minutes, then after five minutes, and thereafter each ten minutes, until the baby is asleep. ° Each subsequent night, return at intervals longer than the night before. For example, the second night may call for returning first after five minutes, then after ten minutes, and thereafter each twelve minutes, until the baby is asleep. The technique is targeted at infants as young as four months of age. A few babies are capable of sleeping through the night at three months, and most are capable of sleeping through the night at six months. Before six months of age, the baby may still need to feed during the night and it is probable that the baby will require a night feeding before three months. Ferber made some modifications in the 2006 edition of his book Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems. He is now more open to co-sleeping and feels different approaches work for different families, children & situations.[5]" Maybe you wanted to read reviews about it on amazon, there's a lot, generally highly positive. I highly recommend reading the parents' responses there, very interesting. Here's the all-reviews page. Edited July 7, 2018 by barn added "might"
neeeel Posted June 23, 2018 Posted June 23, 2018 https://www.parentingscience.com/Ferber-method.html 4. The Ferber method does not teach children how to fall asleep As Richard Ferber himself acknowledges, graduated extinction doesn't teach children how to fall asleep on their own (Ferber 2006). Children are simply denied access to their parents, and left to work it out for themselves.
oleom Posted June 24, 2018 Author Posted June 24, 2018 23 hours ago, barn said: That's a reasonable response, except for the part I highlighted. Which I am unable to correlate/translate, due to you not quoting the part that you perceived as such, or forgot... variations, etc. can't tell. I asked about the long term consequences (where you said ",only a fool...") , because I'm not sure if you considered what could be the ones manifested when sleep training is done at a later age, I couldn't see any evidence, where you have mentioned them/it. If you did, I probably missed it, please pass a link or share it with me. Thanks. I'll be checking upon the thread, and if you have reason & evidence regarding...-> referring to : "... doing the gentle cry out method? I think it might be the way I want to go about doing it with my own baby, at least at first."-> ->.. I'm happy to revisit the topic together. I hope you and your husband, when it's appropriate, choose the right solution for him (baby boy). Also want to mention, it's admirable that you care for the topic and the pro-activity part too. I like parents that focus on the wellbeing of their child(ren) , even if sometimes that can be challenging. Yes, I hope to be able to choose the best, that is why I am reading both sides (both the ones against and for sleep training), and try to form an opinion. Thank you, yes, as parents it is our responsibility to focus on the well being and it can indeed be challenging at times.
barn Posted June 24, 2018 Posted June 24, 2018 3 hours ago, oleom said: On 06/23/2018 at 11:36 AM, barn said: That's a reasonable response, except for the part I highlighted. Which I am unable to correlate/translate, due to you not quoting the part that you perceived as such, or forgot... variations, etc. can't tell. I asked about the long term consequences (where you said ",only a fool...") , because I'm not sure if you considered what could be the ones manifested when sleep training is done at a later age, I couldn't see any evidence, where you have mentioned them/it. If you did, I probably missed it, please pass a link or share it with me. Thanks. I'll be checking upon the thread, and if you have reason & evidence regarding...-> referring to : "... doing the gentle cry out method? I think it might be the way I want to go about doing it with my own baby, at least at first."-> ->.. I'm happy to revisit the topic together. I hope you and your husband, when it's appropriate, choose the right solution for him (baby boy). Also want to mention, it's admirable that you care for the topic and the pro-activity part too. I like parents that focus on the wellbeing of their child(ren) , even if sometimes that can be challenging. Yes, I hope to be able to choose the best, that is why I am reading both sides (both the ones against and for sleep training), and try to form an opinion. Thank you, yes, as parents it is our responsibility to focus on the well being and it can indeed be challenging at times Cool, also when you responded to the other parts of my message... I'll be checking that too. When/if it happens. Have a good one!
oleom Posted June 26, 2018 Author Posted June 26, 2018 On 6/24/2018 at 2:12 PM, barn said: Cool, also when you responded to the other parts of my message... I'll be checking that too. When/if it happens. Have a good one! About being defensive, I think it was something I wrote in the beginning and you assumed my ideas were in opposition to yours, when in fact they weren't. That's all. About "only a fool", I am not sure what you mean, but my point was that what you said was pretty obvious, that is, sure, sleep training and/or co sleeping at a later age can also be harmful. We just don't know.
oleom Posted June 26, 2018 Author Posted June 26, 2018 On 6/23/2018 at 11:59 AM, neeeel said: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/moral-landscapes/201407/parents-misled-cry-it-out-sleep-training-reports https://www.todaysparent.com/baby/baby-development/sleep-training/ https://aasm.org/resources/practiceparameters/review_nightwakingschildren.pdf https://aasm.org/resources/practiceparameters/review_nightwakingschildren.pdf from the first link: Points in Brief (read details below): 1. Research does not support what sleep training reports assume: That sleep training “is fine” for baby —it’s NOT, even when the baby stops protesting. That cry-it-out (extinction of crying) works at home—it does NOT. Age and development level of the child does not matter for sleep training. WRONG. Research shows no harm for babies—NOT: it doesn’t even examine harm to babies! Sleep training research is well done—NOT: poor designs, fidelity, analysis show it is UNRELIABLE 2. Sleep training reports gloss over the trauma and toxic stress that is done to babies during sleep training, when the brain and body are developing rapidly. Reports overlook how ignoring a baby at night is a form of NEGLECT. 3. Most parents are not comfortable with cry-it-out (extinction of crying) and they should not be. Babies are meant to be with caregivers all the time. Their wellbeing is undermined otherwise. There are also links supporting cry it out, or at least saying ( as above) that its not harmful. You would have to look deeper into them, and the research behind them. The idea that we need to teach children ( and especially babies) independence seems crazy to me. Children start off TOTALLY dependent. If their needs are met, they will have a base on which to move to greater independence, with support from their parents, of course. Forcing independence by removal of care and attention, is not teaching independence at all. Thanks for this, most arguments given here seems very reasonable to me. I do think at a CERTAIN AGE, removal of care and attention will USUALLY lead to independency (even though it might not the best method).
neeeel Posted June 26, 2018 Posted June 26, 2018 1 hour ago, oleom said: Thanks for this, most arguments given here seems very reasonable to me. I do think at a CERTAIN AGE, removal of care and attention will USUALLY lead to independency (even though it might not the best method). Sure theres a big difference between sleep training when they are 6 months, and helping them to move to their own room when they are 10. Depends what you mean by care and attention. Im not sure you can ever remove those. Caring and being attentive doesnt necessarily come with any actions.
barn Posted June 26, 2018 Posted June 26, 2018 1 hour ago, oleom said: About "only a fool", I am not sure what you mean, but my point was that what you said was pretty obvious, that is, sure, sleep training and/or co sleeping at a later age can also be harmful. We just don't know. I understand this part better. Thanks. 1 hour ago, oleom said: About being defensive, I think it was something I wrote in the beginning and you assumed my ideas were in opposition to yours, when in fact they weren't. That's all. I still don't see what you'd meant, that's why I said On 06/23/2018 at 11:36 AM, barn said: No need to be all defensive about it Bad habits can of course cause negative consequences, only a fool would disagree. (this comment above is actually yours from: oleom Posted Saturday at 11:11 AM) On 06/23/2018 at 11:36 AM, barn said: Which I am unable to correlate/translate, due to you not quoting the part that you perceived as such, or forgot... variations, etc. can't tell. If it's too much asking that you quoted, no problem, you can certainly decline. I'm just letting you know I haven't made progress with this small chunk of your comment. I was also wondering, what if you called in? Sent an email to @operations? Did you know, parenting matters had a priority over others? (It's been mentioned and I think written/highlighted by staff too)
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