Help Me Figure This Out

[Elizbaeth]

I'm glad I don't know people here, personally, or I would never be able to post this. 

This might be an open-shut issue, and it might be very obvious, but I'm finding issues popping up in my own feelings and I'm not sure about they're about, where they come from, or how to deal with them. I chose to post here because I think it will be most relevant for my sons and how I parent them and relate to them as they get older. I'm pretty embarrassed about this and frightened at myself, so please be kind (always honest, though).

So it's become more apparent to me that I'm harboring some very negative feelings about male sexuality. When I start to think about my sons growing older and becoming interested in women, I get this sinking knot in my stomach, just this pit of dread and I feel afraid. I'm not exactly sure what I'm afraid of. The closest thing I can think of is that I'm afraid that, when they hit puberty and began to be sexual, that I will no longer see them as good.  I throw my thoughts into the future and try to imagine living with and enjoying teenage boys, and there is a big part of me that instantly feels like I must patrol their sexuality with this sort of aggressive attitude, almost like it will be Me vs Boy Sexuality, and one of us is going to lose. I am having a hard time imagining how we will share any level of tenderness or affection once they turn into sexual beings. It seems like everything will be tainted, and gross and vile, and like any goodness will be gone because they will be these devouring, hungry monsters snacking on taking, must endlessly taking lust and sex. Obviously this is not a good attitude, and I'm really struggling. I think I have a deep fear of male sexuality, although I know, factually that I shouldn't be afraid. It just seems like male sexuality is this cold, ghastly animal that gluts itself and uses up its prey and then just moves on to the next item on the list. I think I'm afraid that, once my sons are no longer children, that they will become bad. That male sexuality = inability to love. 

 

Yes, I'm sure this reveals tons of bad things about me that I would rather not shine light on, but I feel like, unless I figure this out, I'm just putting myself on course for a terrible time between me and my sons, and I love them very much and would like for them to love me, too - even as teenagers, and onto adulthood and beyond. 

Edit: I think this also applies to girls, too.It's just not as immediately relevant since I only have boys at the moment.  My husband and I have been talking about a third kid in the future, and I am terrified of having a girl. When I try to imagine the mother-daughter relationship, I see nothing but me doing to best to exterminate all signs of sexuality. And I mean exterminate. And I'm not talking about preventing promiscuity or anything like that. My mother-daughter fantasy is this horrible attack of me trying to kill all sexuality, and I just have this feeling that any daughter I could ever have would be my mortal enemy - especially  if she were pretty. My imagination just cannot pull up a happy mother-daughter relationship at all, even while the hypothetical daughter is an infant. 

[Bob Jones]

Hi,

I'm sorry that you are struggling with this.  It looks like a troubling situation.  I have a few thoughts and I'll try to communicate them here.  I'm making some very painful assumptions here.  Please forgive me if I'm wrong.

I just want to point out that for a variety of reasons that include values and environment, your sons might not be very sexual in their teenage years.  Maybe they will want to wait for marriage.  I don't know, but it is possible.  From the statement "when they hit puberty and began to be sexual" it sounds like "it is written!"  Nothing is predetermined and you are married, which is a very positive thing for your sons.  Men who grew up in single-mother households, as far as I understand it, "end up" with a larger portion of the problematic sexual behaviors.  I don't think you need to assume that they will be very sexual.

I think the sinking knot or anxiety that you feel when thinking about your sons' sexuality is a very real fear from an experience that you may have had of a corrupted male's sexuality, which you may not remember and which I am very sorry for.  I think this experience is central to the emotions you are experiencing (which I hope you will clarify if it is anger, fear, sadness, as it may help) and for the sake of your sons will need to be confronted at some point before they hit puberty.

Why I made the previous assumption is the fact that I see two things:

1. Fear when you mention male sexuality
2. A hostility towards female sexuality

I think this could be a response to sexual abuse as you are having trouble separating the evil sexual actions of your possible abuser from the healthy sexual development and curiosity of your sons.  I also noticed specifically when you were referencing killing all signs of sexuality that you did not mention your daughter's sexuality.  You referred to all sexuality without reference to who it belonged to and I think this may have been unconscious.  In contrast, I noticed that you did reference patrolling your sons' sexuality.  Once I noticed this, things clicked into place for me and I think it has a lot of meaning.  Victims of sexual abuse often internalize that it was their own fault.  They can feel very conflicted feelings about themselves and their self esteem.. of course it hardly needs to be said, it is absolutely terrible.

These feelings you are experiencing may be coming from the experiences that taught you two things:

1. Male sexuality is evil
2. It is the woman's responsibility to control evil male sexual actions by controlling her own sexuality (this one could use some improvement - referring to my writing)

Of course these are both false.  Male sexuality has the capacity to be both good and evil and no one can control someone else's actions without using force.  Of course the child could never control or influence the abuser's behavior in any way that justifies the abuse.  These two beliefs or conclusions as Stefan talks about in Real-Time Relationships (I don't know for sure if this context applies to conclusions) can lead you to dangerous behavior.  Controlling your sons' sexuality could leave them feeling sexually frustrated, belittled, and insecure which can push them to abusive behavior.  Controlling your daughter's sexuality could lead to her being rebellious and getting into situations where she herself gets severely hurt.  Maybe I'm just seeing things, but this could be a pattern trying to repeat itself.

I really hope I'm wrong, but if not I'm sorry again.  How did I do?  What did you experience reading this?  Where did I go wrong?

 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

My guess is that you're afraid of your boys, or future girls, becoming sluts as adults.

Well, the best way to prevent that is with education and example. I am not a slut because I know what happens to sluts and how shitty their lives are. I have so many examples of what happens if I follow my dick that I just don't do that. 

You need to get the sexist idea out of your head that "male sexuality=inability to love" though. I'm sure there are male sluts like female sluts that don't love or don't need love to screw, but I know as a man that I emotionalize sex and can't help but feel love for someone I am sexually attracted to.

And the best way to combat that is education and a desensitization to sexual stimuli. Easiest way is through regular fapping as males naturally have higher standards when they're exposed to the best glamour models on the internet and since most women don't have the bodies of glamour models, most women cannot make me feel like as vulnerable as I used to feel back when I was younger and more sensitive. 

I doubt it's all that different with girls. I think the Internet has helped a lot in terms of taming sexuality as instead of having actual sex we can now simulate sex and thus reduce the weakness that comes from having a strong sex drive. 

[Elizbaeth]

11 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

You need to get the sexist idea out of your head that "male sexuality=inability to love" though.

Yes of course. That is why I mentioned my feelings and attitude at all. I don't like my feelings and want to examine them. I think it was you, actually, in the post about rites of passage, that mentioned that I maybe I shouldn't think of men as such brutes. I read that and realized that there is a very strong proclivity in my to believe that. It's an emotional response. I do want to get rid of it and feel something healthier, and more true. 

 

11 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Easiest way is through regular fapping as males naturally have higher standards when they're exposed to the best glamour models on the internet and since most women don't have the bodies of glamour models, most women cannot make me feel like as vulnerable as I used to feel back when I was younger and more sensitive.

Ugh.... This just seems like an admission that sexual men are the horrible, vile, devouring creatures that I'm afraid they are. This it's just a glutenous, never-ending consumption of flesh, and they are innately just these dark, sick underworld things that just eat and eat and take. Like they can't love. They can only be victims of their own need to consume female beauty and sex. 

11 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

instead of having actual sex we can now simulate sex and thus reduce the weakness that comes from having a strong sex drive. 

I just feel disgust in response to reading this. I am disgusted by the drive itself. Why are men so gross as to need an outlet? I know how offensive to men this is - really, I'm sorry. But like I said I want to change what I feel, so I have to be honest about it. But all that you're saying just makes me think that men are barely-civilized animals who are unable to control themselves, and women are just terrible and bad, too. 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

From the statement "when they hit puberty and began to be sexual" it sounds like "it is written!"  Nothing is predetermined and you are married, which is a very positive thing for your sons.  Men who grew up in single-mother households, as far as I understand it, "end up" with a larger portion of the problematic sexual behaviors.  I don't think you need to assume that they will be very sexual.

It feels like it is predetermined and written. I know all the stats and things like that, but the feeling doesn't match up with what I know. I feel like there is an impending disaster. 

 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

I think the sinking knot or anxiety that you feel when thinking about your sons' sexuality is a very real fear from an experience that you may have had of a corrupted male's sexuality, which you may not remember and which I am very sorry for.

I've had a few bad experiences with male sexuality, yes, but none that I can remember while I was terribly young, so I feel confused about my feelings. I have listened to Stefan for a while, so my first impulse was to check childhood, but I'm drawing blanks. I have lots of feelings about these things. I know I keep using the word feeling, but it's really the most solid, truthful thing I can draw on. I don't know very  much about what I feel this way, just that I do. 

 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

(which I hope you will clarify if it is anger, fear, sadness, as it may help)

I think it is fear. I feel afraid. The script goes like this - they are my sweet and good sons now, and when they hit puberty, they will become disgusting and they will not be worthy of my love because they will be gross, obsessed with hurting women and will not be capable of being good. Obviously I realize how crazy this is. But yeah, I think I'm feeling fear. 

 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

• Fear when you mention male sexuality
• A hostility towards female sexuality

I think this is accurate. Right now I see my boys as good. I always wanted sons and I could always imagine happiness between me and young sons. When they start developing as sexual beings I feel like that is when they will be transformed into something bad. And it's like it's not even their fault. It's just what it is. But I must keep them from changing, or make them into something else altogether so that they don't become bad. 

I cannot imagine at all a peaceful time with a daughter. I feel like she is bad. She is bad because she is a girl and yes, female sexuality is the downfall of almost everything. Absolutely. Men can't help that they lust so much, and women are to blame for their beauty and attractiveness. If a girl is attractive she should do everything she can to apologize for it and to hide it, because it unleashes such monstrosity in men. A girl can't be good because she inherently triggers evil and lust, just because she is. 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

Controlling your sons' sexuality could leave them feeling sexually frustrated, belittled, and insecure which can push them to abusive behavior.  Controlling your daughter's sexuality could lead to her being rebellious and getting into situations where she herself gets severely hurt. 

Right. I see some really bad outcomes for these feelings of mine. It only leads to disaster. 

 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

could be a pattern trying to repeat itself.

The only pattern I can really identify is between me and my mother. I had a great relationship with her until I was a teenager. I do remember her checking me for underwear (that one always confused me. Of all the things I would do, why would I not want to wear underwear? ). I think it's pretty easy to see that I felt like it was bad to be a girl - always being asked to check and double check my clothing from every possible angle. But it was like she wanted to hide my attractiveness and also sort of liked it. Maybe I just misinterpreted a mother's protective instincts about a young, attractive daughter. But it always felt like I needed to go to some really crazy lengths to not tempt men, and yet she would also always point out my flat stomach, or would always tell me about the guys she saw looking at my butt or other lewd stuff like that. It's not even a very big thing, but I remember being so uncomfortable and confused when she told me I couldn't wear certain clothes to church anymore - just normal clothes that I had worn up until then - because the older men would look at me and have bad thoughts. Not really a crazy things, but I had been allowed to wear them before and no one cared, but when I began to grow it was wrong to do so. And they weren't revealing or crazy clothes. Just t-shirts. So I always felt terribly guilty over being slightly attractive, and then always extremely self-conscious and hyper aware of male attention. I remember her sitting me down one day before I had visitation with my dad. She held me in the ricking chair and told me to tell her in anyone touched me in a wrong way, and I remember how extremely uncomfortable that made me. I don't think anyone had done anything to me. I remember going to some type of dr when I was little - I think it was a child psychologist to help with the divorce - and feeling very, very uncomfortable. But I don't really remember. So the best I can do is chalk it up to some uncomfortable feelings. It could all be explained as just a mother worrying about her daughter, and me misinterpreting it. 

I do think I'm afraid I would repeat the pattern. I disliked the parent my mother was as I grew, and I think I'm afraid of becoming her. 

 

17 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

How did I do?  What did you experience reading this?

You were helpful. Thank you. 

I felt very anxious and a little sick to my stomach, but I felt... um, I felt, maybe, seen? Seen, I guess. 

 

Thank you!

[Siegfried von Walheim]

14 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Yes of course. That is why I mentioned my feelings and attitude at all. I don't like my feelings and want to examine them. I think it was you, actually, in the post about rites of passage, that mentioned that I maybe I shouldn't think of men as such brutes. I read that and realized that there is a very strong proclivity in my to believe that. It's an emotional response. I do want to get rid of it and feel something healthier, and more true. 

Work on it before your boys see themselves as broken girls. If I knew you personally, I'd just say "fuck you" (but definitely not literally) and stop knowing you. However, I don't know you personally and there are two boys on the line, so I have a bit more patience than I'd normally.

Quote

Ugh.... This just seems like an admission that sexual men are the horrible, vile, devouring creatures that I'm afraid they are. This it's just a glutenous, never-ending consumption of flesh, and they are innately just these dark, sick underworld things that just eat and eat and take. Like they can't love. They can only be victims of their own need to consume female beauty and sex. 

I could easily make an emotionally fulled spite-fest about female hypergamy and characterize women as nothing more than eternal parasites and prostitutes before the hard working and laboring men, yet are too arrogant and vain to ever admit it and thus spite men for their own baseness. 

MGTOW and feminism are two sides of the same problem.

Quote

I just feel disgust in response to reading this. I am disgusted by the drive itself. Why are men so gross as to need an outlet?

How is male sexuality gross? Reading this, it makes me wonder how you see your husband considering how "gross" he is for being a man and how "gross" your kids are for being men-to-be.

I can only guess your past, but I can easily predict your future if you don't change your mindset and impressions of men. 

Quote

I know how offensive to men this is - really, I'm sorry. But like I said I want to change what I feel, so I have to be honest about it. But all that you're saying just makes me think that men are barely-civilized animals who are unable to control themselves, and women are just terrible and bad, too. 

Considering men make everything in society, from the roads to the clothes to the houses and computers, to the very scrubs and soaps that are used to keep it all clean, I highly suggest you rethink your incredibly sexist view of men and male sexuality. It's better you're honest, but I can't fathom how you could have a remotely healthy family dynamic present or future given this "dormant sexism". 

Maybe you have a past that makes you see men as mere beasts, but that's no excuse. You, and everyone really, relies on men to keep society together and on women to build the men. If you can't learn to appreciate men--deep down--and male sexuality then frankly you have no future as a mother or a wife. I can't imagine what traumas, intentional or subconscious, you are (or could be) inflicting on your sons.

My solution at this point is very simple but ultimately up to you to figure the details out of: learn to appreciate men and male sexuality, or prepare to be a miserable old spinster. I suspect your distaste for men comes from being exposed to beta males and perhaps being a low quality woman with only a body to offer. I hope I'm wrong, but this highly offensive and sexist sentiment could only come from a dark place.

I read your inner Eliot Roger below about female sexuality and you can basically reread everything I wrote above but switch the pronouns.

The way I see it (and maybe it could alter your view): male sexuality is the seeds, female sexuality is the soil, and the next generation is the fruit, trees, and vegetation that makes the Earth beautiful. 

A man's sexuality is inherently loving because of his innate desire to invest himself into a woman and children; a woman's sexuality is inherently loving because of her innate desire to welcome and embrace a man into herself and then hold the children born of them. 

Water tends to seek its own level; aggressive men like to domesticate aggressive women; docile men like to be domesticated by docile women; assertive men like to seek companionship with assertive women. I am not saying all aggressive is good or bad, all docility is good or bad, or all assertiveness is good or bad, because all of it is necessary to build and sustain a society.

Warriors protect the workers and farmers, workers build the world, and farmers feed the world, and them both feed and house the warriors in exchange for that protection. This is the relationship between the aggressive, the passive, and the assertive. At its best, a working team. At its worst, a feud. Don't make it a feud. Learn to respect the beauty of how we evolved and the flurry of emotions and sensations that come with sexuality.

...Perhaps all this will change your course, as I am frankly far more concerned for your sons than I am for you after reading this.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Siegfried von Walheim

[Boss]

Have you seen the truth about sex by Stefan? There are rational reasons to be cautious about sex but there are rational solutions as well. Not just feelings. As the Bible says, know the truth, and the truth will set you free

What do you see in your son's father? that is normally what your sons will see too. Is there anything to worry about? Maybe call in the show, it sounds interesting. 

I have my thoughts on this situation, but its hard to know without more info. I will just end with this,

What you see in men sexuality, can be loved and accepted by women by virtue of them freely opening up to it and accepting it. It can also be rejected by virtue of them freely refusing it. It is this free market process that creates life
 

[S1988]

@Elizbaeth

What if you come across the opposite scenario, like having a daughter who's plain or even has a deformity?  I can relate to not being a beauty queen and my peers not letting me forget that. Even my own mother picked on me for my physical flaws. It's a wonder I don't have body dysmorphia. I guess it had to do with the fact that I focus on my inner beauty, like my intelligence and creativity.

If you have a daughter (and this goes for your sons, too), you can set an example of what true beauty is rather than letting society, peers, and the media define it by appreciating inner talents and maybe honing new ones. Perhaps, you can teach them some self-defense quips in case someone says something mean about their appearance such as "Well, since you think I'm ugly, don't look at me. Simple." or "I don't like you either, so I guess the feeling's mutual." (I never said these myself, but they're handy to have, and it'll be interesting to see how one reacts.) 

 

 

[Elizbaeth]

On 7/8/2018 at 11:12 AM, S1988 said:

having a daughter who's plain or even has a deformity?

I think I might feel a stronger instinct to protect her and boost her up. 

 

On 7/8/2018 at 11:12 AM, S1988 said:

Even my own mother picked on me for my physical flaws.

Wow. I’m so sorry. That’s rough! I’m sure she must have taken out her insecurities on you. It must have been very hard to have a mother do that to you. 

 

On 7/8/2018 at 11:12 AM, S1988 said:

f you have a daughter (and this goes for your sons, too), you can set an example of what true beauty is rather than letting society, peers, and the media define it by appreciating inner talents and maybe honing new ones. 

True beauty is a rare thing, and I would love to be an example of it for a child. 

 

On 7/8/2018 at 11:12 AM, S1988 said:

"Well, since you think I'm ugly, don't look at me. Simple." or "I don't like you either, so I guess the feeling's mutual." (I never said these myself, but they're handy to have, and it'll be interesting to see how one reacts.) 

I think this is great. I never really learned to say anything like that or to stand up for myself, and I think it would be awesome for a child to be able to do that. 

[Jsbrads]

So confused. Did you not have a father, brothers and husband before now?

[Bob Jones]

On 7/7/2018 at 12:20 PM, Elizbaeth said:

Yes of course. That is why I mentioned my feelings and attitude at all. I don't like my feelings and want to examine them. I think it was you, actually, in the post about rites of passage, that mentioned that I maybe I shouldn't think of men as such brutes. I read that and realized that there is a very strong proclivity in my to believe that. It's an emotional response. I do want to get rid of it and feel something healthier, and more true. 

 

Ugh.... This just seems like an admission that sexual men are the horrible, vile, devouring creatures that I'm afraid they are. This it's just a glutenous, never-ending consumption of flesh, and they are innately just these dark, sick underworld things that just eat and eat and take. Like they can't love. They can only be victims of their own need to consume female beauty and sex. 

I just feel disgust in response to reading this. I am disgusted by the drive itself. Why are men so gross as to need an outlet? I know how offensive to men this is - really, I'm sorry. But like I said I want to change what I feel, so I have to be honest about it. But all that you're saying just makes me think that men are barely-civilized animals who are unable to control themselves, and women are just terrible and bad, too. 

It feels like it is predetermined and written. I know all the stats and things like that, but the feeling doesn't match up with what I know. I feel like there is an impending disaster. 

 

I've had a few bad experiences with male sexuality, yes, but none that I can remember while I was terribly young, so I feel confused about my feelings. I have listened to Stefan for a while, so my first impulse was to check childhood, but I'm drawing blanks. I have lots of feelings about these things. I know I keep using the word feeling, but it's really the most solid, truthful thing I can draw on. I don't know very  much about what I feel this way, just that I do. 

 

I think it is fear. I feel afraid. The script goes like this - they are my sweet and good sons now, and when they hit puberty, they will become disgusting and they will not be worthy of my love because they will be gross, obsessed with hurting women and will not be capable of being good. Obviously I realize how crazy this is. But yeah, I think I'm feeling fear. 

 

I think this is accurate. Right now I see my boys as good. I always wanted sons and I could always imagine happiness between me and young sons. When they start developing as sexual beings I feel like that is when they will be transformed into something bad. And it's like it's not even their fault. It's just what it is. But I must keep them from changing, or make them into something else altogether so that they don't become bad. 

I cannot imagine at all a peaceful time with a daughter. I feel like she is bad. She is bad because she is a girl and yes, female sexuality is the downfall of almost everything. Absolutely. Men can't help that they lust so much, and women are to blame for their beauty and attractiveness. If a girl is attractive she should do everything she can to apologize for it and to hide it, because it unleashes such monstrosity in men. A girl can't be good because she inherently triggers evil and lust, just because she is. 

Right. I see some really bad outcomes for these feelings of mine. It only leads to disaster. 

 

The only pattern I can really identify is between me and my mother. I had a great relationship with her until I was a teenager. I do remember her checking me for underwear (that one always confused me. Of all the things I would do, why would I not want to wear underwear? ). I think it's pretty easy to see that I felt like it was bad to be a girl - always being asked to check and double check my clothing from every possible angle. But it was like she wanted to hide my attractiveness and also sort of liked it. Maybe I just misinterpreted a mother's protective instincts about a young, attractive daughter. But it always felt like I needed to go to some really crazy lengths to not tempt men, and yet she would also always point out my flat stomach, or would always tell me about the guys she saw looking at my butt or other lewd stuff like that. It's not even a very big thing, but I remember being so uncomfortable and confused when she told me I couldn't wear certain clothes to church anymore - just normal clothes that I had worn up until then - because the older men would look at me and have bad thoughts. Not really a crazy things, but I had been allowed to wear them before and no one cared, but when I began to grow it was wrong to do so. And they weren't revealing or crazy clothes. Just t-shirts. So I always felt terribly guilty over being slightly attractive, and then always extremely self-conscious and hyper aware of male attention. I remember her sitting me down one day before I had visitation with my dad. She held me in the ricking chair and told me to tell her in anyone touched me in a wrong way, and I remember how extremely uncomfortable that made me. I don't think anyone had done anything to me. I remember going to some type of dr when I was little - I think it was a child psychologist to help with the divorce - and feeling very, very uncomfortable. But I don't really remember. So the best I can do is chalk it up to some uncomfortable feelings. It could all be explained as just a mother worrying about her daughter, and me misinterpreting it. 

I do think I'm afraid I would repeat the pattern. I disliked the parent my mother was as I grew, and I think I'm afraid of becoming her. 

 

You were helpful. Thank you. 

I felt very anxious and a little sick to my stomach, but I felt... um, I felt, maybe, seen? Seen, I guess. 

 

Thank you!

I apologize for waiting so long to respond.  I had terrible anxiety in anticipation of your response and I didn't face it off.  I am glad that you felt seen (if that is good) and I hope it is a different way of looking at things for you.  Although, I think this book I'm reading will be much more helpful to you.

 

I am currently reading a book and I had you on my mind occasionally reading it because I think your relationship with your mother could have been an example in this book.  It is called Healing the Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw and it is excellent!  I think this book would really open the floodgates for knowledge and healing with regards to your situation.  Stefan's book Real-Time Relationships is really great too and will go into pattern repetition and how to avoid it.  I think these two books work excellently together.  And I think these wounds are very deep (just like mine!).  There are a lot of defenses that are at work in our lives that are really powerful.

Listening to Stef I don't think I got just how powerful these ego defenses (which Stef rightfully calls delusions and slavery I believe) are and how terrifying they are to face!  I'm on page 200 and it gives me a lot of hope and a pretty clear path forward so far.  I think you can have the same.

I think I listened to two or three old podcasts (like 10 and 4 years old) and one unlocked things by recommending really digging deep into your mind and following your emotions as deep as you can go.  It was pretty intense.  I had three vivid dreams that night.  The next day I read the first 50 pages of the recommended book and I had another three vivid dreams and it was pretty crazy.  I don't usually dream, and I think it is a good sign.  I might just post them on here.

If you can search for podcasts with listener conversations that have resemblances to your early life I think that could help too.

[Elizbaeth]

On 7/8/2018 at 5:07 AM, Boss said:

Have you seen the truth about sex by Stefan? There are rational reasons to be cautious about sex but there are rational solutions as well. Not just feelings. As the Bible says, know the truth, and the truth will set you free

I have! I watched it a while ago and was fascinated and enjoyed it. It probably didn't help me at the time because, well, I've only recently become consciously aware of this issue in myself. 

 

I must say, though, that even just posting on here and having some feedback and dialogue was a huge relief for me, emotionally. I almost instantly felt a tremendous lessening of this feeling in me, and felt much more normal, much more like what I thought I should be feeling like. I think that I still need to work on this, but just this little bit did a lot to help me process things, and that gives me a lot of hope. 

On 7/17/2018 at 12:25 AM, Jsbrads said:

So confused. Did you not have a father, brothers and husband before now?

Yes, I did. I have a father and a grandfather and stepfather, and an older brother and an older stepbrother.  I have some issues with them. I never lived with my father - my mom and he were divorced when she was 8 months pregnant with me, and I saw him one weekend ever month with supervision, and then when I was older I spent every other Thanksgiving/Xmas with him and his parents. He's not terrible. I really disdain him, but I'm not sure that it's his fault. He was a male model when he was younger, and then worked in construction and never really was able to keep a job. He had a great head of hair and now he's got a receding hairline. He's super annoying and obtuse, and always takes things just a little too far and can't ever be there when you need him, can't pay his bills on time, is awful with kids, and chronically breaks everything he touches. He loves to have emotional late-night conversations on the couch, and likes to pretend that I'm a 4 year old and he cries all the time about how he was robbed of his time with me (I feel torn about this one. He was robbed of his time with me when I was little, but I had zero say in that or power over the situation, and I'm no longer a little kid. I'm an adult and cant be the little kid he wants me to be). He is a loser. 

My maternal grandfather was my de-facto dad for most of my childhood. He is a different story. He is like the godfather of the Bible Belt. He is absurdly wealthy, very business savvy and shrewd, and extremely strict, legalistic and heavily involved in some big movements in the uber-conservative denomination I was raised in. He doles out favors for the community and controls everything that does on. He is one of the elders in my hometown church and is just so strict and his decision rules, no exception, no argument, and anyone who disagrees or asks why is sinful or just not very smart. It's really his way or Hell. 

[Elizbaeth]

On 7/8/2018 at 3:42 AM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

I'd just say "fuck you" (but definitely not literally) and stop knowing you.

The insult was not necessary. 

 

[Elizbaeth]

On 7/17/2018 at 6:49 PM, Bob Jones said:

I am currently reading a book and I had you on my mind occasionally reading it because I think your relationship with your mother could have been an example in this book.  It is called Healing the Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw and it is excellent!  I think this book would really open the floodgates for knowledge and healing with regards to your situation.  Stefan's book Real-Time Relationships is really great too and will go into pattern repetition and how to avoid it.  I think these two books work excellently together.  And I think these wounds are very deep (just like mine!).  There are a lot of defenses that are at work in our lives that are really powerful.

I will check out the book! Thank you for the tip.  i have listened to RTR and it really hit home for me and shed a lot of light into my life.

 

I have to say, writing/commenting/reading this thread has really been a great help for me. I do not feel like I am "in the clear" and done with this issue at all, but I am relieved to feel the huge assuagement of fear and anxiety that came about just from this little but of dialogue and processing. It encourages me. 

On 7/17/2018 at 6:49 PM, Bob Jones said:

just how powerful these ego defenses (which Stef rightfully calls delusions and slavery I believe) are and how terrifying they are to face!  I'm on page 200 and it gives me a lot of hope and a pretty clear path forward so far.  I think you can have the same.

I think you're right. There are times when I think I have an accurate glimpse of my ego at work - a clear, detached, uninvolved perspective of this reflexive thing that forcefully and impulsively pushes ideas onto me. I think it requires a lot of discipline and self-control to circumvent these defenses. 

 

On 7/17/2018 at 6:49 PM, Bob Jones said:

recommending really digging deep into your mind and following your emotions as deep as you can go.  It was pretty intense.  I had three vivid dreams that night.  The next day I read the first 50 pages of the recommended book and I had another three vivid dreams and it was pretty crazy. 

I think that's necessary, but I am unsure about how to do this in my current life. Really the time that I should have done all of this was before I had kids, but I didn't. I knew some things were off in my life pre-kids, but really only had a vague idea and thought most of them had been solved. I had lots of troubles in my marriage right in the beginning, and it brought a lot of my issues to the forefront, and I found Stefan's podcasts/youtube while trying to figure out how to understand my husband. Since then, it's basically been one watershed of discovery after another. I do believe that I should give myself credit for not hiding from my problems whenever I become aware of them, and for confronting them, but at times I feel discouraged to know that there is yet again something ill in me that I have carried into my marriage and parenting. But my point is that it is tricky for me to really do things which cause me to have great swings of negative emotions - even if it could be cathartic - because it interferes with my ability to take care of my kids. And yes, I do see the ironic catch-22 of this. I need to sort out these issues to be a better parent, but also need to do it in a way which does not detract from my ability to connect with them or be responsive with them - all of which is why I should have done all of this before kids. My solution so far is to come here, and post about things which I need help with while they are either napping or in bed for the night, and I can process things here in bite-size amounts, with the leisure to leave or come as needed and tackle things in a way which I find to be much more conducive to maintaining an active parenting role. 

On 7/17/2018 at 6:49 PM, Bob Jones said:

I apologize for waiting so long to respond.  I had terrible anxiety in anticipation of your response and I didn't face it off.  I am glad that you felt seen (if that is good) and I hope it is a different way of looking at things for you.  Although, I think this book I'm reading will be much more helpful to you.

 

You were quite helpful for me, and I really appreciated your input and responses. Thank you again for the time!

[Jsbrads]

New thought: I am a big fan of Alison Armstrong and she has a website understandmen.com

maybe if you learn more about what good men are, you can encourage your boys to be good men and focus on the good.

Also let them hear Alison explain why women need men to take out the trash (I never knew why my mother asked me to take out the trash).

i know the fbomb above was unnecessary, but men communicate differently. We often toss words around casually, without using the care to see how others may take those words. But we also don’t use words with laser precision to cut people like women do. No insult intended to you.

[Siegfried von Walheim]

On 7/29/2018 at 11:51 AM, Elizbaeth said:

The insult was not necessary. 

Yes it is. It's to indicate exactly how disgusted I am/was with you after reading you reply and how any sane man would be after reading how virulently you, a mother of boys, hate men. 

You can't throw shit at a man and expect him not to flinch. You can apologize before saying it but that doesn't make a difference. It's honestly how you feel, and therefore I'm honestly expressing how I felt. You ought to expect it, actually. If I said horribly, untrue, and offensive things about women you'd be right to tell me to GFY even if I prefaced it with "I'm sorry but this is how I feel".

I will be extra honest and let you know I was tempted to say absolutely nothing because I was extremely offended. However with 2+ boys at stake, I felt I had to say something because I could empathize with being a small and helpless creature in the hands of someone who internally despises me for being born with the wrong genitals.

Of course you could focus on the more substantial parts of my reply but then I guess if this is the most significant part for you then frankly you need to woman up because my patience isn't infinite and you'd have to be extremely naive, or simply apathetic, to think you can describe men as shallow beasts and expect no emotional flares. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Siegfried von Walheim

[Siegfried von Walheim]

9 hours ago, Jsbrads said:

i know the fbomb above was unnecessary, but men communicate differently. We often toss words around casually, without using the care to see how others may take those words. But we also don’t use words with laser precision to cut people like women do. No insult intended to you.

My intent was simple: to express anger and extreme contempt. I don't usually curse on the Internet (don't want to look like a big mouth and it usually just sabotages whatever else I might say) but I felt I ought to since I had to make it clear where I was coming from and why it's important for her to get how awful her misandry is because most men never raise their voices around women and so many women don't get the full truth due to men's inherent tendency to lie or minimize to women. 

But then again it was months ago. I was probably just pissed because I wanted to help but at the same time very much didn't want to help because I felt both betrayed and massively offended. However I figured I ought to say something because 2+ boys are at stake and mere offense is nothing compared to a childhood of having a man-hating mother.

Perhaps I triggered her and so she ignored the rest of what I had to say. If that's the case then she really needs to woman up because it isn't about her; it's about her children.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Siegfried von Walheim

[Elizbaeth]

On 7/31/2018 at 5:57 AM, Jsbrads said:

New thought: I am a big fan of Alison Armstrong and she has a website understandmen.com

maybe if you learn more about what good men are, you can encourage your boys to be good men and focus on the good.

Also let them hear Alison explain why women need men to take out the trash (I never knew why my mother asked me to take out the trash).

i know the fbomb above was unnecessary, but men communicate differently. We often toss words around casually, without using the care to see how others may take those words. But we also don’t use words with laser precision to cut people like women do. No insult intended to you.

I went and checked out her website and read through all the blog posts she had - I really like how she writes and explains things. She makes the info very accessible and understandable. Men are very different at times, and I have made men a subject of study for the past few years and still find that I can be extremely surprised at how different my husband will react to and interpret a specific situation from me. That in itself can create a lot of tension, and I've really put a lot of energy into trying to do my best to see all possible disagreements and moments of tension through his perspective, and being as sympathetic as I can to what he is thinking and feelings. It can get exhausting, because I really have to be focused on his needs instead of mine, but I find that when I'm able to successfully put my emotional urgency aside and try to really understand him, then my needs actually do end up getting met, albeit usually much later. When I first started really trying to make my relationship with my husband better, I used a lot of The Feminine Woman and Laura Doyle's stuff. Both of those did a lot to help me find a better orientation for myself and for what I wanted out of my relationship. This is partly why I have become so much more conservative and Red Pilled in the past couple of years. It was only in marriage, and the conflict of my marriage, that I learned anything about men and even about women. It has been quite the journey of digging my own girly, female heart out of the wreckage of this bizarre, chaotic culture. 

 

So obviously this is a big issue and not something to just open and then close and never examine again, but I really am happily surprised at how much of a relief just this online thread has been for me. I have not had those feelings since I posted, and I can even hold the idea of having a daughter without feeling that giant knot of anxiety and fear. Whenever I've tested my feelings and tried imagining my sons hitting puberty and becoming sexually interested in women, I mostly feel curious to see how they will grow and develop. 

 

I think that my next task will probably be to identify what triggered those feelings and why it triggered them. I'm not exactly sure how I will go about learning what precisely triggered the feelings, but I think that I will at least get closer to knowing if I keep rooting around in my own head and being open and frank about what I find. 

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[Jsbrads]

Thank you for looking into yourself. We want people like you around.

[Frederik]

On 7/31/2018 at 11:57 AM, Jsbrads said:

New thought: I am a big fan of Alison Armstrong and she has a website understandmen.com

maybe if you learn more about what good men are, you can encourage your boys to be good men and focus on the good.

Also let them hear Alison explain why women need men to take out the trash (I never knew why my mother asked me to take out the trash).

i know the fbomb above was unnecessary, but men communicate differently. We often toss words around casually, without using the care to see how others may take those words. But we also don’t use words with laser precision to cut people like women do. No insult intended to you.

Thank you so much for posting this resource. Seriously good stuff! Thanks again.

[Elizbaeth]

@Siegfried von Walheim I have thought a lot about your posts. I was obviously very emotional about this whole thread, and your responses were highly emotional for me and I felt very angry that you would purposefully throw insults (there were multiple) at me when I was intentionally baring my flaws and uglier characteristics and asking for help and feedback. I have not been sure about what I really thought in response to your posts. I was really shocked at the intentional meanness. I thought it was taken as a matter of course that my thoughts about male sexuality were wrong and needed to be changed. (I am becoming more convinced, though, that my issues are not solely about male sexuality but about healthy sexuality in general.) You did say some helpful things. So thank you for that. It also was obvious from your response that I really offended you. I understand how any negative thoughts I have about men are something you would take personally, since you are male. I don't wish to helped, though, if the "help" comes with a large dose of contempt. Who wants that? Certainly not me. Should you wish to engage with me in the future, I really do ask that you try to answer with a generous spirit. If you are more wise than me and wish to enlighten me, than wonderful. But you can be honest with me and speak harsh truths without being contemptuous. I understand that you may wish to be contemptuous, since I said offensive things to you. Fair enough. But if you can't speak without that contempt, I do wish for us to not engage anymore. 

 

I would say, though, that this post has lead me to feel more upset about the complete failure of my family and culture to adequately prepare me to do my job, and I am now scrambling to not only learn the skills and things needed to be a good wife and mother, but am also having to go through my own psyche and heart and actively un-do/unlearn most of what has been taught to me. And it's infuriating. Over and over, I see more evidence of all the ways in which our whole culture is sabotaging people's abilities to be healthy and to be truly empowered. I look at my sons and wonder why I, as a young girl, who was extremely trusting and happy and tender-hearted, was told so many lies for so long. 

On 7/8/2018 at 3:42 AM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Considering men make everything in society, from the roads to the clothes to the houses and computers, to the very scrubs and soaps that are used to keep it all clean,

I have never had an issue with this. I have felt swelling admiration for the nature-defying feats of man, in a very Ayn Randian way. I feel a huge surge of positive emotions, almost like awe, when I see men striving, overcoming, creating, and being dedicated, inventive, and strong. 

 

On 7/8/2018 at 3:42 AM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

I suspect your distaste for men comes from being exposed to beta males and perhaps being a low quality woman with only a body to offer. I hope I'm wrong, but this highly offensive and sexist sentiment could only come from a dark place.

You most likely hit the nail of the head, here. My father is the ultimate beta. He was a handsome has-been, and has zero worth except for crying and being emotional over things that I have never been able to fix or help. My grandfather - probably the biggest male influence in my life, is not a beta, though. He is alpha to his marrow. He is extremely smart, very domineering, practically runs the whole Bible Belt, super wealthy, very strict conservative fundamentalist Christian, and literally has summoned whatever female was around to get up and refill his coffee for him. You don't argue or have conversations with him. You agree, or you are wrong and therefore sinning and against God's word. 

 

But the most accurate thing you probably said was about being a low quality woman with only a body to offer. I have known, from as young as I can remember, that no one cared about anything I said, thought, or felt, if I did not look pretty. I have a cousin who has never been attractive (who is now in her mid 30's, obese, and dotes on her two small dogs and fills her heart with Netflix), and the treatment between me and her growing up was stark. Both of us had single mothers, and both of us were partially raised by our grandmother as our mothers went back to school and got jobs. She was largely ignored. I was ignored if I was not being extra smiley, accommodating, or if I was not looking attractive. The difference between how I was treated when I looked good or when I looked bad was amazing. My granddad would smile at me and ask me questions when I was pretty. It was obvious. And he would literally ignore me or be much more critical when I did not look as good. It is easy to see this, even as a small child. And that together with the guilt of being a woman and single-handedly being responsible for bringing sin in to the world. Fundamentalist Christians put a lot of blame on Eve and her descendants. And I was desperate for a close male relationship. I have always wanted a man to love me. I honestly think it, if I had had a fmaily I trusted to choose wisely for me, that I would have been very happy being married at 17 and starting a family then. But I was confident that I had nothing to offer except for my looks (and this has nothing to do with what I actually look like. I could be ugly or pretty. Whatever. But I thought that was all I had to bargain with.) Honestly, time and time again I can recall this being shown true. I remember moving (again) and starting my sophomore year at a new high school, and I was thrilled that this guy asked me to the Homecoming dance. He picked me up, took me to a restaurant, and I was stupidly excited. I spent the time talking about Anna Karenina, and he ended up ditching me at the dance and I spent the whole time in the bathroom, alone. All of jr high was like that. All of high school was like that. Most of college was like that. I can't tel you how many times my "friends" told me that they were surprised that I was not just a stupid bimbo. I thought it was obvious that no one cared anything about anyone besides the body they could offer and their looks. And it could be the chicken or the egg argument - maybe that's all I saw because that's all I had to offer, or that was all I thought I had to offer because that's all I saw around me. At this point, I think it probably began as that latter and ended up as the former. And yes. You could say that, if I were really more perceptive, I would have seen all of this and just separated from the herd and dealt with the loneliness and revelled in the isolation and consoled myself with knowing that I had something more to offer, but my single biggest fear is emotional rejection. It is a tough one for me. Even disappointing someone fills me with a dark, heavy feeling, and the anger, emotional withdrawl, or rejection of someone I feel close to is unbelievably painful. It's really just as if I were ripped from a tropical beach and hurled onto a hanging cliff in some arctic wasteland. I have made most of my life's choices in relation to whether or not it would upset my mom and my granddad. It is excruciatingly painful for me to disagree with them, much less to be someone different from what I was supposed to be. Quite frankly, it was not until I had my husband on my side that I was able to really stand up to them at all. I simply did not have the courage. I needed his strength, and his GTFO attitude and his indifference to social acceptance. And your post was really helpful because I realized, as I was reading it, that I have only been able to feel any courage at all since I have had him and his strength. I think I have so much more negative things to uncover in myself, and at times I'm really discouraged, but it gives me a huge boost in motivation to see how quickly these "demons" lose their force of power and depth as I inquire into them. I do not this I should be shown contempt for exposing myself in hopes of learning, growing, or improving. I do believe that I should be encouraged in this. And I don't think that it should be surprising to learn that dark, incorrect thoughts/feelings are ugly and/or disgusting. Of course they are. That is why they need to change. There is no need to add further negativity to this. 

On 7/8/2018 at 3:42 AM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

A man's sexuality is inherently loving because of his innate desire to invest himself into a woman and children; a woman's sexuality is inherently loving because of her innate desire to welcome and embrace a man into herself and then hold the children born of them. 

I liked how you phrased this, and it did slant things in a way in which I had not thought of before. And this is also part of this issue, I think. If this is the case - that male sexuality is inherently loving because he is investing himself in a woman and in those potential children - than a man is unloving when he has sex without total commitment and without total exclusivity. Promiscuity and non-monogamy is bad for both genders, if this is true. I think this is probably true, but it is definitely not the world I grew up in nor is it the norm for what I see around me. It's a bit of a mind-f to reconcile those two things. If a man is a loving man, how could he wish to create risk and danger for a woman he is not committed to by having casual sex? It seems sociopathic to me. The danger that this exposes the woman to is extremely high, and if a man is willing to put another person through that without any compunction, than is is truly chilling to me. If we are to look at things from what they mean biological, then he is willing to risk the woman's life and the potential child's life for his own instant gratification. And I see it everywhere. Everywhere. And this is not even to mention the negative feelings I have about women's sexuality, which seems to be bent on manipulative, deceitful entrapment and coercion. 

 

I think, overall, the more I dig into things - into myself and into the world - the more it seems urgently imperative that all relationships and interactions be guided by the NAP and UPB. I do not know how love can exist otherwise. It's not real, otherwise. It's easy for me to believe that women are built to bond through monogamy and are only really meant to have one lover, and that men are more easily able to have casual sex, but if a man is being inherently loving by having sex, than is he loving each and every one night stand? Does he love that chick he knocked up and wishes he could get away from? If a man is investing himself in a woman when he has sex with her, why is he unhappy when a child is born? Why does a man not love to be the provincial beast of burden that is required in wedlock? If a man's sexuality is inherently loving, but he has sex with women whom he has no wish to invest fully in, then is he not loving? Is he lying about his love? Isn't he sinning against his own heart, and his own ability to love when this happens? It seems to be the only conclusion of that statement, but this is not what is presented to me, even in this forum. There is this idea that it isn't bad, and maybe it's even good, for a man to be sexually promiscuous and to have "conquered" lots of women and have lots of experience. But if your statement is true, then what does it say about the men who are promiscuous? Are they being dishonest about they intentions, or about their ability to love? Or to invest? Or will they suddenly flip a switch and sex will no longer be for sport but for love? Does something like that just "happen?" I think I've answered a lot of these questions over the past few days/weeks, but these were some of my issues. 

On 7/8/2018 at 3:42 AM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Learn to respect the beauty of how we evolved and the flurry of emotions and sensations that come with sexuality.

Part of this is learning to appreciate my own femaleness. I know we live in a currently female-privileged culture, but honestly no one likes femininity or wants women to be women, just like no one wants men to be men. It's been so surprising to me to continually discover and rediscover the fact that I am utterly feminine down to my bones, and it is freedom for me to embrace it instead of trying to be a man, just hotter. And I know it sounds crazy, but it's so freeing to understand that I am a deeply emotional, largely subjective creature. It's my superpower and my weakness, I believe. I think that we will be a better society if we really appreciate and respected the differences, and worked to meet each other's needs in an upright, moral way, with integrity and truth for the betterment of the team. Men + women would really be unstoppable. 

[barn]

Hi @Elizbaeth

Thanks for your detailed and (what seems to me) 'from the heart' response to @Siegfried von Walheim, post. It was very revelatory for me to read.

Thank you for sharing. Massive kudos!

[Siegfried von Walheim]

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

@Siegfried von Walheim I have thought a lot about your posts. I was obviously very emotional about this whole thread, and your responses were highly emotional for me and I felt very angry that you would purposefully throw insults (there were multiple) at me when I was intentionally baring my flaws and uglier characteristics and asking for help and feedback. I have not been sure about what I really thought in response to your posts. I was really shocked at the intentional meanness. I thought it was taken as a matter of course that my thoughts about male sexuality were wrong and needed to be changed. (I am becoming more convinced, though, that my issues are not solely about male sexuality but about healthy sexuality in general.) You did say some helpful things. So thank you for that. It also was obvious from your response that I really offended you. I understand how any negative thoughts I have about men are something you would take personally, since you are male. I don't wish to helped, though, if the "help" comes with a large dose of contempt. Who wants that? Certainly not me. Should you wish to engage with me in the future, I really do ask that you try to answer with a generous spirit. If you are more wise than me and wish to enlighten me, than wonderful. But you can be honest with me and speak harsh truths without being contemptuous. I understand that you may wish to be contemptuous, since I said offensive things to you. Fair enough. But if you can't speak without that contempt, I do wish for us to not engage anymore. 

I don't know what "speak from contempt" means, I only know how to speak honestly and forthrightly. If I am feeling contempt for you, it might help you to recognize that and ask "why". And the why is always one of 3 things: I think you're fucked up; you think I'm fucked up; or we're both fucked up in some way or another.

In this scenario, I felt betrayed after exposing a little of myself as an anecdote and really despised the idea that I ought to be sensitive with you while you're insensitive to me. Therefore, a solution I'd be content with would be a mutual shaming of the Devil. You point out something about me or what I've done that you find bad, and I do the same with you, and we go from there. However I won't except being either the emotional tampon or the only one taking shit. Either we both take the shit, neither of us take the shit, or we don't talk.

But after reading below, I think you chose "we both take the shit" and that's fine with me. I'm hardly perfect.

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

 

I would say, though, that this post has lead me to feel more upset about the complete failure of my family and culture to adequately prepare me to do my job, and I am now scrambling to not only learn the skills and things needed to be a good wife and mother, but am also having to go through my own psyche and heart and actively un-do/unlearn most of what has been taught to me. And it's infuriating. Over and over, I see more evidence of all the ways in which our whole culture is sabotaging people's abilities to be healthy and to be truly empowered. I look at my sons and wonder why I, as a young girl, who was extremely trusting and happy and tender-hearted, was told so many lies for so long. 

I have never had an issue with this. I have felt swelling admiration for the nature-defying feats of man, in a very Ayn Randian way. I feel a huge surge of positive emotions, almost like awe, when I see men striving, overcoming, creating, and being dedicated, inventive, and strong. 

 

You most likely hit the nail of the head, here. My father is the ultimate beta. He was a handsome has-been, and has zero worth except for crying and being emotional over things that I have never been able to fix or help. My grandfather - probably the biggest male influence in my life, is not a beta, though. He is alpha to his marrow. He is extremely smart, very domineering, practically runs the whole Bible Belt, super wealthy, very strict conservative fundamentalist Christian, and literally has summoned whatever female was around to get up and refill his coffee for him. You don't argue or have conversations with him. You agree, or you are wrong and therefore sinning and against God's word. 

 

But the most accurate thing you probably said was about being a low quality woman with only a body to offer.

I apologize for shortening the quotes in advance but I think i'm better off answering totally than piecemeal. 

1: Looks matter. But not for the reasons you might think.

Looks portray the internal character externally. Human beings naturally pick up on subtle cues that the body has to offer and make subconscious judgements accordingly. Of course there are people who are superficial and aren't that good at reading bodily cues, but that doesn't mean you or anyone should be willfully blind to physical cues of character.

2: Rejection is a filter for character. He who as many friends has none (I forget who said that, some Chinese guy--maybe Confucius).

I think you already got it, but to make it clear: birds of a feather flock together. If you want to fly with good birds, you gotta be rejected by the bad birds. If you're rejected by the good birds (assuming they're good and you know they are), then that means you aren't a good bird. Perhaps you're a mixed bird and that's where you'd be most comfortable. After all, I know for sure I'm not good enough for the perfect woman because I'm not perfect. And, on the other end, I know I'm better than the worst conceivable woman because I'm not totally terrible without redemptive qualities. I'm somewhere between the extremes, aiming to be as good as can in the areas that I value and as good as I must in the areas I don't.

3: Not all Christian sects are equal.

Or even all Christians or households for that matter. But I'm sure you got that by default. One reason why I love the Catholic Church even though I am not really religious is because they strive for consistency and truth while Protestants tend to interpret and encourage personalized interpretations rather than a single objective truth. That little difference is a very big deal to me since I want the truth and I recognize most people aren't capable--either due to time or ability--to grasp the truth of something as abstract and challenging as morality. I cannot grasp it firmly, how can people who are average or stupid? I prefer to rely on fallible but highly educated and wise men than my own whims, which are subject to change.

Overall: I think you're right to seek individuality since being a conformist to others' essentially means not existing. There's nothing wrong with commonality and holding it in every now and then (like I don't expect anyone to be fully themselves with total strangers for example), but you gotta make sure that the group you're in is your group by your own will and not by you subjecting your will to others. That's the difference between a leader and a follow right there.

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

I liked how you phrased this, and it did slant things in a way in which I had not thought of before. And this is also part of this issue, I think. If this is the case - that male sexuality is inherently loving because he is investing himself in a woman and in those potential children - than a man is unloving when he has sex without total commitment and without total exclusivity. Promiscuity and non-monogamy is bad for both genders, if this is true. I think this is probably true, but it is definitely not the world I grew up in nor is it the norm for what I see around me. It's a bit of a mind-f to reconcile those two things. If a man is a loving man, how could he wish to create risk and danger for a woman he is not committed to by having casual sex? It seems sociopathic to me. The danger that this exposes the woman to is extremely high, and if a man is willing to put another person through that without any compunction, than is is truly chilling to me. If we are to look at things from what they mean biological, then he is willing to risk the woman's life and the potential child's life for his own instant gratification. And I see it everywhere. Everywhere. And this is not even to mention the negative feelings I have about women's sexuality, which seems to be bent on manipulative, deceitful entrapment and coercion. 

Men are not wise. Men instinctively wished to be loved. A promiscuous man may very well be seeking, even if it's a false hop that's only subconscious, to be with the woman he's having a fling with and for her to love him and hug him and support him. 

Perhaps even more notably: most men naturally defer to women. So if a woman says (literally or implicitly) "You may fuck me", then the man naturally feels inclined to do so because it's like a mother rewarding her son and praising him for his good behavior. Men naturally wish to be praised by attractive women and have vary degrees of desire to be treated like a child by their woman. To a man, a woman that is very motherly, loving, affectionate, but also choosy and particular with whom she gives her affection and care, such a woman is the ideal. Only the worst warts could throw him off. 

Unfortunately most young adults are adult children playing with grown-up parts without real wisdom for what they're for nor why they want to play with them. It's not all a desire to procreate. It's also a desire to be loved, accepted, and validated as a man.

Even though I know it's wiser for me to be a virgin till marriage, I still feel bad about it because occasionally I wonder if I ought to have sex with women (even in flings) just to make sure I'm lovable and desirable.

There's a lot of pressure (where it comes from? I dunno. Maybe "society", maybe family, maybe friends, maybe instinct, maybe just their own heads, etc.) on men to have sex even without marriage explicitly tied to it. A man naturally feels that in order to be good he must win the approval of a woman. And approval means praise, love, and permission to enter.

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

There is this idea that it isn't bad, and maybe it's even good, for a man to be sexually promiscuous and to have "conquered" lots of women and have lots of experience. But if your statement is true, then what does it say about the men who are promiscuous? Are they being dishonest about they intentions, or about their ability to love? Or to invest? Or will they suddenly flip a switch and sex will no longer be for sport but for love? Does something like that just "happen?"

Men who are promiscuous are, I believe, men who wish to be loved and validated but are afraid of getting hurt. I've known a lot of slutty men, both my age and much older, and they all had bad relationships with their mothers and either an absent father, a beta father, or one that actively encouraged male promiscuity.

Women are definitely not the only confused gender out there. Men are too. 

Men want to have sex because it's empirical validation for their existence. It says "you're a decent man. You're worth being with. I love you. Now you may enter..."

I'm sure there's the 5% of are psychopaths, but I'm fairly sure there's also the confused majority who just don't know right from wrong and are aimlessly seeking validation and approval. Especially by a woman.

To a man: a woman's word is worth a hundred mens'.

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

Part of this is learning to appreciate my own femaleness. I know we live in a currently female-privileged culture, but honestly no one likes femininity or wants women to be women, just like no one wants men to be men. It's been so surprising to me to continually discover and rediscover the fact that I am utterly feminine down to my bones, and it is freedom for me to embrace it instead of trying to be a man, just hotter. And I know it sounds crazy, but it's so freeing to understand that I am a deeply emotional, largely subjective creature. It's my superpower and my weakness, I believe. I think that we will be a better society if we really appreciate and respected the differences, and worked to meet each other's needs in an upright, moral way, with integrity and truth for the betterment of the team. Men + women would really be unstoppable. 

You're wrong (about the part I bolded). Men want a woman who is motherly (feminine), women want a man who is fatherly (masculine). It's just that a lot of them don't know where to find it and probably had bad examples before them.

Let me tell you the wisest thing a woman could ever do when she sees her man having a bad day, feeling upset, complaining, etc.

It's simple: Hug him. That's it. A loving hug is pretty much all a man needs to feel better because it reminds him "what's really worthwhile": the love of his life, the mother of his children, and once he's had children the next thing that works like a charm is their own praise of their father as a provider, teacher, protector, and life-sized teddy bear (lol but true). 

I know women like to talk things out, but men don't always. Sometimes, we just want to lay down... relax, and feel loved. 

I think once you get that, you'll feel better about people and your sons. As long as you love them, you hug them (that's very important--the physical act of hugging, especially the head), and you praise them where they're good and chastise them where they're bad, you've got nothing to worry about. Next is just a matter of teaching them to find a good woman (if they really love you, they might just ask Dad since he got you).

And to conclude: I'm as emotional as you are. I may be better at controlling it (most of the time lol) but I am not a stoic, wise elder. I'm 20 years old! Don't expect me to have the same temper and patience as your 30-something husband! Or you, even. 

However I think we've come to a good randevous since, frankly, I like the fact we gave each other our rawness and (in spite of the blip in the middle) came together to get a real extractable lesson out of it. 

Also, I used to be much more afraid of rejection, especially by elders. While I was always critical of seemingly random authority (heck I remember--when I was 8-- refusing to say "Yes?" when called on because I didn't see anything wrong with "What?". It seemed both arbitrary and unfair to change my language slightly to a teacher I barely knew lol. I never actually said "Yes?" to her even though I did so occasionally with others. While I used to be more conforming, I also had a rebellious streak lol. But I never broke any school rules etc. etc. I always followed them, especially if they seemed fair and logical to me, and hated those who got away with breaking them Maybe I should have become a policeman... lol).

[Spenc]

Elizbaeth, I just wanted to point something out that maybe hadn't come up (I read a lot of the thread but not every long post).......

What happens when boys (people in general) become teenagers/reach sexual maturity?  They will lose interest in their parents and begin to emphasize peer-bond relationships and courtship......How do you feel at the prospect of your boys growing up and fleeing the nest more and more?  I wonder what the development of the bond you have with them now was like for you emotionally.  I remember reading another post by you that they aren't very old and that you breastfed, correct?

So you may be feeling some pain at the thought of that bond loosening, and protecting yourself from feelings of rejection and isolation by instead invoking judgmental expectations on your sons.  Coupled with some of the things you mentioned about your family history, there's a lot of material there to see why sexuality might have been the easy scapegoat--your sexually successful but loser-y dad, prudish but ambivalent mother, christian and social status upbringing, etc......there's a lot to work with there.......

[Elizbaeth]

On 8/10/2018 at 4:50 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

I don't know what "speak from contempt" means, I only know how to speak honestly and forthrightly. If I am feeling contempt for you, it might help you to recognize that and ask "why". And the why is always one of 3 things: I think you're fucked up; you think I'm fucked up; or we're both fucked up in some way or another.

In this scenario, I felt betrayed after exposing a little of myself as an anecdote and really despised the idea that I ought to be sensitive with you while you're insensitive to me. Therefore, a solution I'd be content with would be a mutual shaming of the Devil. You point out something about me or what I've done that you find bad, and I do the same with you, and we go from there. However I won't except being either the emotional tampon or the only one taking shit. Either we both take the shit, neither of us take the shit, or we don't talk.

But after reading below, I think you chose "we both take the shit" and that's fine with me. I'm hardly perfect.

I apologize for shortening the quotes in advance but I think i'm better off answering totally than piecemeal. 

1: Looks matter. But not for the reasons you might think.

Looks portray the internal character externally. Human beings naturally pick up on subtle cues that the body has to offer and make subconscious judgements accordingly. Of course there are people who are superficial and aren't that good at reading bodily cues, but that doesn't mean you or anyone should be willfully blind to physical cues of character.

2: Rejection is a filter for character. He who as many friends has none (I forget who said that, some Chinese guy--maybe Confucius).

I think you already got it, but to make it clear: birds of a feather flock together. If you want to fly with good birds, you gotta be rejected by the bad birds. If you're rejected by the good birds (assuming they're good and you know they are), then that means you aren't a good bird. Perhaps you're a mixed bird and that's where you'd be most comfortable. After all, I know for sure I'm not good enough for the perfect woman because I'm not perfect. And, on the other end, I know I'm better than the worst conceivable woman because I'm not totally terrible without redemptive qualities. I'm somewhere between the extremes, aiming to be as good as can in the areas that I value and as good as I must in the areas I don't.

3: Not all Christian sects are equal.

Or even all Christians or households for that matter. But I'm sure you got that by default. One reason why I love the Catholic Church even though I am not really religious is because they strive for consistency and truth while Protestants tend to interpret and encourage personalized interpretations rather than a single objective truth. That little difference is a very big deal to me since I want the truth and I recognize most people aren't capable--either due to time or ability--to grasp the truth of something as abstract and challenging as morality. I cannot grasp it firmly, how can people who are average or stupid? I prefer to rely on fallible but highly educated and wise men than my own whims, which are subject to change.

Overall: I think you're right to seek individuality since being a conformist to others' essentially means not existing. There's nothing wrong with commonality and holding it in every now and then (like I don't expect anyone to be fully themselves with total strangers for example), but you gotta make sure that the group you're in is your group by your own will and not by you subjecting your will to others. That's the difference between a leader and a follow right there.

Men are not wise. Men instinctively wished to be loved. A promiscuous man may very well be seeking, even if it's a false hop that's only subconscious, to be with the woman he's having a fling with and for her to love him and hug him and support him. 

Perhaps even more notably: most men naturally defer to women. So if a woman says (literally or implicitly) "You may fuck me", then the man naturally feels inclined to do so because it's like a mother rewarding her son and praising him for his good behavior. Men naturally wish to be praised by attractive women and have vary degrees of desire to be treated like a child by their woman. To a man, a woman that is very motherly, loving, affectionate, but also choosy and particular with whom she gives her affection and care, such a woman is the ideal. Only the worst warts could throw him off. 

Unfortunately most young adults are adult children playing with grown-up parts without real wisdom for what they're for nor why they want to play with them. It's not all a desire to procreate. It's also a desire to be loved, accepted, and validated as a man.

Even though I know it's wiser for me to be a virgin till marriage, I still feel bad about it because occasionally I wonder if I ought to have sex with women (even in flings) just to make sure I'm lovable and desirable.

There's a lot of pressure (where it comes from? I dunno. Maybe "society", maybe family, maybe friends, maybe instinct, maybe just their own heads, etc.) on men to have sex even without marriage explicitly tied to it. A man naturally feels that in order to be good he must win the approval of a woman. And approval means praise, love, and permission to enter.

Men who are promiscuous are, I believe, men who wish to be loved and validated but are afraid of getting hurt. I've known a lot of slutty men, both my age and much older, and they all had bad relationships with their mothers and either an absent father, a beta father, or one that actively encouraged male promiscuity.

Women are definitely not the only confused gender out there. Men are too. 

Men want to have sex because it's empirical validation for their existence. It says "you're a decent man. You're worth being with. I love you. Now you may enter..."

I'm sure there's the 5% of are psychopaths, but I'm fairly sure there's also the confused majority who just don't know right from wrong and are aimlessly seeking validation and approval. Especially by a woman.

To a man: a woman's word is worth a hundred mens'.

You're wrong (about the part I bolded). Men want a woman who is motherly (feminine), women want a man who is fatherly (masculine). It's just that a lot of them don't know where to find it and probably had bad examples before them.

Let me tell you the wisest thing a woman could ever do when she sees her man having a bad day, feeling upset, complaining, etc.

It's simple: Hug him. That's it. A loving hug is pretty much all a man needs to feel better because it reminds him "what's really worthwhile": the love of his life, the mother of his children, and once he's had children the next thing that works like a charm is their own praise of their father as a provider, teacher, protector, and life-sized teddy bear (lol but true). 

I know women like to talk things out, but men don't always. Sometimes, we just want to lay down... relax, and feel loved. 

I think once you get that, you'll feel better about people and your sons. As long as you love them, you hug them (that's very important--the physical act of hugging, especially the head), and you praise them where they're good and chastise them where they're bad, you've got nothing to worry about. Next is just a matter of teaching them to find a good woman (if they really love you, they might just ask Dad since he got you).

And to conclude: I'm as emotional as you are. I may be better at controlling it (most of the time lol) but I am not a stoic, wise elder. I'm 20 years old! Don't expect me to have the same temper and patience as your 30-something husband! Or you, even. 

However I think we've come to a good randevous since, frankly, I like the fact we gave each other our rawness and (in spite of the blip in the middle) came together to get a real extractable lesson out of it. 

Also, I used to be much more afraid of rejection, especially by elders. While I was always critical of seemingly random authority (heck I remember--when I was 8-- refusing to say "Yes?" when called on because I didn't see anything wrong with "What?". It seemed both arbitrary and unfair to change my language slightly to a teacher I barely knew lol. I never actually said "Yes?" to her even though I did so occasionally with others. While I used to be more conforming, I also had a rebellious streak lol. But I never broke any school rules etc. etc. I always followed them, especially if they seemed fair and logical to me, and hated those who got away with breaking them Maybe I should have become a policeman... lol).

Your post actually made me smile. I appreciate this so much. I don't want to say too much else - there is lots to say, but I think it could go on and on and on - and I'd rather just end things on this fabulous note. Thanks for the time and all your thoughts! 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

13 minutes ago, Elizbaeth said:

Your post actually made me smile. I appreciate this so much. I don't want to say too much else - there is lots to say, but I think it could go on and on and on - and I'd rather just end things on this fabulous note. Thanks for the time and all your thoughts! 

Hey lady I like me some feedback you know!!

Thanks though; I'm glad I managed to help. I'd appreciate you letting me know how though since I sorta do this for a living... 

[SnapSlav]

On 8/10/2018 at 1:50 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Unfortunately most young adults are adult children playing with grown-up parts without real wisdom for what they're for nor why they want to play with them.

You quote "some Chinese guy" earlier, but I think this snippet is a glittering gem which I would like to save! I've long liked the Fight Club rendition of this sentiment, "I can't get married; I'm a 30-year-old boy!" This also echoes that, but also says so much more. It's more than just the boys, it's the girls too. I'm seeing a generation surrounding me that are children playing at adulthood, and I think this sentence explained it to me the best. So thanks!

[Siegfried von Walheim]

54 minutes ago, SnapSlav said:

You quote "some Chinese guy" earlier, but I think this snippet is a glittering gem which I would like to save! I've long liked the Fight Club rendition of this sentiment, "I can't get married; I'm a 30-year-old boy!" This also echoes that, but also says so much more. It's more than just the boys, it's the girls too. I'm seeing a generation surrounding me that are children playing at adulthood, and I think this sentence explained it to me the best. So thanks!

Oy, that's my quote! Least you could do is quote my post so it registers as such!!

You're welcome though, lol. 

[SnapSlav]

Blame the website. I've never used a forum with this type of interface, before. Everything I've used before has been varying degrees of "better", or at least it granted me total control over what I wrote and how the finished product looked. This doesn't. =/

But I'll see if I can tweak the post to be more accurate.

EDIT: There, fixed. =]

[Siegfried von Walheim]

1 hour ago, SnapSlav said:

Blame the website. I've never used a forum with this type of interface, before. Everything I've used before has been varying degrees of "better", or at least it granted me total control over what I wrote and how the finished product looked. This doesn't. =/

But I'll see if I can tweak the post to be more accurate.

EDIT: There, fixed. =]

*FF Fanfare* 

I like this forum's interface a lot though (compared to GameFAQs at least) since I can easily quote people (and not have to delete the quote-within-a-quote-within-a-quoate-within...) and just by pressing "return" twice I can separate the text...

However that's mostly me just being used to it. Not to mention I don't hang around many forums since they can be awful time wasters at times...

Edited August 20, 2018 by Siegfried von Walheim

[SnapSlav]

On 8/19/2018 at 10:36 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Not to mention I don't hang around many forums since they can be awful time wasters at times...

Amen to that... ~_~

I'd say this forum compared to what I prefer is like saying Windows 2.0 is preferable to DOS; one is more "user friendly" and the other actually allows total control to the user. Since I'm used to those formats, just like I was used to working with DOS on my first computers, it never seemed cumbersome to me at all. It's convenient to highlight a section of text and click on a popup that turns that highlight into a quote. But it's also convenient to be able to manually arrange/design/format quote boxes, too, albeit it takes more skill/knowledge/understanding/experience to do the latter.

Even though I haven't gone back to earlier forums I used to frequent, it's still embedded reflex within me to just toss out lines of forum code like [ i] [ quote=] [/ url] (WITHOUT the spaces) and so on and so on.