RichardY Posted August 3, 2018 Posted August 3, 2018 Was thinking that god is not moral. If God created Satan, Lucifer, The Devil... whatever flavour. And that The Devil, was created perfect. In what way was he, the devil perfect? What does perfect even mean? Perhaps God is imperfect. Perhaps perfection is moral perfection? I say that God is not moral and can not be moral, if he is omniscient. As well, as attributed atrocities, and Commandments; not a moral explanation. Also, the book of Job, is cited by Carl Jung as an example of projection. Whereby God projects on to Job, his power and authority. Instead, what if the Devil is moral? Why fear the Devil? If you've done nothing wrong, at least perhaps, not consciously aware of wrong doings. If a force of nature of God or the Devil, what can be done about it, except provision. The Devil is not omniscient, but is omnipotent. - If he were omniscient, he could not be moral. God is omniscient, but not omnipotent. - If God is everything or omniscient, how is omnipotent an issue? ------------------------------------------- Ezekiel 28 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Mathew 5 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. John 8 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Gnostic Bishop Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 If we count the murders, you are bang on. Regards DL
Jsbrads Posted August 20, 2018 Posted August 20, 2018 Atheists love to complain about religion causing deaths. They never accept responsibility for the deaths of secular ideologies.
RichardY Posted August 20, 2018 Author Posted August 20, 2018 @Jsbrads Are you an atheist? ------------- One thing I don't quite get. Is say God, is not fantasy. Might evil be preferable to non-existence? The thought of being consigned to oblivion, as being worse than evil. But lets say there is God, a heaven or a metaphysical/real hell. How is being in heaven superior to being in hell? Do you want to live forever? There is of course eastern conceptions of religions.
Jsbrads Posted August 21, 2018 Posted August 21, 2018 The universe we experience was made by a first Cause. I believe in God. As to whether he is good (definition of Good means from God) is obvious. As to our experience of bad things, I believe there is an answer to all questions, but I don’t claim to have the answer to all questions.
RichardY Posted August 21, 2018 Author Posted August 21, 2018 @Jsbrads Wouldn't God in itself be cause less? So that a first cause would not apply? So I guess it is possible to be good and be amoral, and not ethical? Or perhaps not moral, but still have an ethic, so that God would be perfectly ethical but not moral? If the Devil has passion though, perhaps he is moral but not ethical? Assuming the devil has at least some meta-psychological basis.
Jsbrads Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 That is a good point. The problem is that prior to the universe, time didn’t exist, time being a dimension of our universe, so the question of cause breaks down there. yes it is possible to be ethical but immoral, and moral but unethical. A lawyer often does horribly immoral things, but those things are ethical by lawyer standards. And sometimes people violate ethics to stand up for morality. None of this applies to supernatural creatures as theyonly have morality, not ethics.
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