Finally dating someone awesome

[smarterthanone]

I am about to be 32 and I am now dating a 17 year old (yes its legal where I live). It is honestly pretty awesome and here is why:

1. I feel lucky to have gotten her. I wasn't sure I could get someone young and attractive like her for something serious so yeah I do feel a little like I won a prize and I better keep my game up to keep her. On the flip side, she feels lucky to have gotten me, a mature, fit, successful man, she didn't think she could get someone like that either, as opposed to an immature guy her age or a creepy old acting man, so she also feels like she got a prize she needs to work for to keep.

2. I am getting into the prime of my earnings, she is in the prime of her fertility. Perfect match.

3. She doesn't butt heads with me, its obvious I am more experienced, wise, capable and so she offers her opinions on things, there is clear structure in terms of who is leading and who is following.

4. She has no aspirations for career or specific education. She likes to take care of a home and she loves animals (shes afraid to have kids but if she loves animals, that is a sign she just doesn't feel secure or comfortable with the idea yet and will love kids when she feels in a safe position to consider something like that) She is intelligent and we can talk about more intricate topics and maybe she doesn't know certain things, I can give a quick explanation and then move on, its really not this big deal everyone is always saying "What do you even talk about with her?"

Literally there is nothing missing from this relationship, I don't feel like I am missing out on anything, she meets every single one of what i've been told are my "impossible" requirements, although they are mainly only impossible if you date older women. Unfortunately she was not a virgin however with very limited experience with young boys who also have very limited experience i dont think they have left much of an impression so I feel pretty ok about it.

People who see us stare and judge us but we both think its awesome in pretty much every way and seems completely natural as we are 100% complimentary in what we bring to the table.

[Elizbaeth]

I’m sure no one else has posted on here because it’s sorta a delicate subject, what with the age difference and all. You understand why people might be skeptical about this.

That being said, I’ve read your past comments about dating and have felt a lot of sympathy for you, and have hoped you could find someone compatible who you could be happy with. All else aside, I don’t think the age difference in itself is a real barrier. I actually think it could work in both of your favors in some circumstances. As long as you know your own intentions and are acting with the upmost integrity, and she is, too, then it might be perfect. 

Best wishes! 

 

[barn]

2 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I’m sure no one else has posted on here because it’s sorta a delicate subject, what with the age difference and all. You understand why people might be skeptical about this. 

Sure?

@smarterthanone

You sound resolute and satisfied, not looking for anything else. Is that right?

 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

This is actually an interesting update that I just didn't notice.

 

I'm not sure whether to congratulate you though: on one hand I cannot fathom loving a girl (compared to a mentally mature woman) however I know that's your thing and if you can get a girl than I can surely find a woman. I'd rather see fellow eccentric males succeed than fail, after all.

 

But it's also too early to say; I suspect she may have lied to you about her lack of virginity as it's considered shameful to be a female virgin in some parts of the West. However I guess there's one obvious way YOU could find out and verify...

 

...But that's none of my business. The important thing is that you found a girl to... groom? Honestly it's creepy as fuck but I guess it's better than a feminist or reckless nut-job. But just about anyone is. And your tastes are almost the opposite of mine, so I guess it's hard for me to congratulate what'd be a failure for me. 

[Elizbaeth]

@barn  I really never know whether or not you're toying with me or being serious. . . You always seem so skeptical of my comments, and it always makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong. 

Are you being serious? Am I sure about what I said? Yes, I was sure.  Are you saying I shouldn't be sure about what I said? Should I not be sure about why other people haven't responded? Do you think others on here have a different opinion? Or am I wrong to think a 32 year old dating a 17 year old might be territory for extra caution and care? Basically there's a huge power disparity between them, since he's a fully-mature adult who has been in the world and is much more aware of how things work, how people and women work, and it's probably going to be very natural for a 17 year old girl to go along with what a grown man wants, and she may easily be too swayed by him to voice her own self-interests or even to do the self-reflection necessary to know her own self-interests. That's why I mention the need for greater integrity. A young woman of 17 might very easily get swept up in the romance and novelty of being in a relationship with a wealthy, attractive older man and might not be fully thinking clearly. I don't know. Maybe she's not affected by those things at all. I'm only guessing. I'm not saying at all that such a big age gap can't work. I just think it probably requires much extra care on his side. I also think he needs to be just as picky about her morals/virtues, and not get swept away in finding himself the center of affection of a hot, young girl. But he doesn't seem like a stupid guy. I think he probably has thought about all of this. I'm also not his mother - I do feel like some caution is warranted, but in the end, he's going to do exactly whatever he thinks and feels that he wants to do, in whatever part of the world he lives in.  I feel a sort of a weird online friendship for the dude. He's posted on here a lot and it has sounded like he has really wanted to find a girl to settle down with. I would be happy if he did, in fact, find someone. People have been marrying at 17 for untold years, and I think it could very well be perfect for both of them. I think I would have been perfectly happy settled down and married around 16-19 years old. He also seems to really like the younger ladies, and I doubt that will change. Why not find a very young lady, provided he loves and cares for her and is 100% committed? 

[barn]

Hi @Elizabeth

(dooh) @Elizbaeth

 

On 09/14/2018 at 9:05 PM, Elizbaeth said:

@barn  I really never know whether or not you're toying with me or being serious. . . You always seem so skeptical of my comments, and it always makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong.  

That's an interesting insight you let me see, again.

"never", "always"... such extremes without reference or context...oh, dear.

You do realise it makes it hard for me to not see it as an exaggerated opinion, especially when it's factually incorrect. Meanwhile I don't mean to minimise your experience and I remain open to discussing specific things you might want to bring up.

We'd had disagreements, very different approaches and maybe opposing working principles, sure a plenty (in my opinion). It's one of the main reason why I drastically reduced my contributions to your content after a while.

What I normally do (if I perceive the other a capable individual for it) is to express my dislike, explaining it in a way that most likely going to make sense to the other person and ask for feedback/encourage it so that we are able to get closer in understanding at least, seeing what's what. And so, I recommend you did the same, based on how well it worked for me since I started doing it.

I'm trying to remember when have you expressed this issue you started this post with... I don't think you have ever signaled that there was something off for you or that you couldn't make out the tone/meaning of something I had contributed and therefore would've liked to ask some clarifiers from me... In fact, in my recollections, I seem to remember you asking very few questions (which in itself is ok, i guess). The reason why I'm saying this is because I don't remember refusing to answer you and so what's the other alternative that we're left with?

Is it possible that you've been holding back thoughts, experiencing the interaction based on solely your own interpretation? Am I way off about it?

On 09/14/2018 at 9:05 PM, Elizbaeth said:

Are you being serious?

Now we're getting somewhere. (not cynical, actually surprised and relieved a bit)

answering...

Yes. That was a 'are you sure you knew what everyone here was thinking, the reason... etc?' compacted and down-throttled with a winking emoji to take its 'sharpness', hoping you would see the two (That's why the specific quote alongside) as a reminder that probably you've assumed something incorrectly about everybody, including myself. I'm not saying it never happened/happens to me, although probably you'd agree it's not a good thing to allow/do. Right?!

On 09/14/2018 at 9:05 PM, Elizbaeth said:

Am I sure about what I said? Yes, I was sure.  Are you saying I shouldn't be sure about what I said?

Basically, yes. You can let me know if it made sense, or I'll try again.

On 09/14/2018 at 9:05 PM, Elizbaeth said:

Should I not be sure about why other people haven't responded?

Fantastic. Yes. Hit the nail on the head.

Funny, this clarifier could have saved you from asking all the others.

On 09/14/2018 at 9:05 PM, Elizbaeth said:

Do you think others on here have a different opinion?

I can't know for sure. That'd be mindreading territory.

It's more likely than not.

Probably yes if someone asked me to 'guesstimate'.

On 09/14/2018 at 9:05 PM, Elizbaeth said:

Or am I wrong to think a 32 year old dating a 17 year old might be territory for extra caution and care?

See above, but my 'crux' was with someone confidently stating a knowledge claim about something they couldn't have possessed or acquired in any fashion other than interviewing each individual having read the thread. Moreover, in this scenario I am also involved (board member 'n all), read it ANNND I also have quite a few different reasons than what you'd assumed. But I didn't want to sound too stern so I decided to throttle down, make it gentle-cute reminder. (I guess it didn't work for you, against my best intentions... lol)

On 09/14/2018 at 9:05 PM, Elizbaeth said:

Basically there's a huge power disparity between them, since he's a fully-mature adult who has been in the world and is much more aware of how things work, how people and women work, and it's probably going to be very natural for a 17 year old girl to go along with what a grown man wants, and she may easily be too swayed by him to voice her own self-interests or even to do the self-reflection necessary to know her own self-interests. That's why I mention the need for greater integrity. A young woman of 17 might very easily get swept up in the romance and novelty of being in a relationship with a wealthy, attractive older man and might not be fully thinking clearly. I don't know. Maybe she's not affected by those things at all. I'm only guessing. I'm not saying at all that such a big age gap can't work. I just think it probably requires much extra care on his side. I also think he needs to be just as picky about her morals/virtues, and not get swept away in finding himself the center of affection of a hot, young girl. But he doesn't seem like a stupid guy. I think he probably has thought about all of this. I'm also not his mother - I do feel like some caution is warranted, but in the end, he's going to do exactly whatever he thinks and feels that he wants to do, in whatever part of the world he lives in.  I feel a sort of a weird online friendship for the dude. He's posted on here a lot and it has sounded like he has really wanted to find a girl to settle down with. I would be happy if he did, in fact, find someone. People have been marrying at 17 for untold years, and I think it could very well be perfect for both of them. I think I would have been perfectly happy settled down and married around 16-19 years old. He also seems to really like the younger ladies, and I doubt that will change. Why not find a very young lady, provided he loves and cares for her and is 100% committed?  

Is it ok if I responded to the questions in this later? I had not planned to respond to anything else other than that section you wrote... hence why I only quoted the part with which I had issues with.

 

 

 

- - - 14.09.2018 - - -

Howdy 'doorbell enthusiast' (voter without merit). It's ok to step out of the shadows and make arguments... arrows aren't . But as always, it's up to you...

[barn]

Mainly to @smarterthanone ,hopefully some of the ideas here will be useful to consider...

 

There's an exception to every rule. I'm more interested in the principles than the 'white crow'. (So, ... is there an exception to this rule also'? '... Let’s not look for that ' bird in the forest '.)

Another important point to make before all, is that I'm for, pro- strong and healthy (emotionally - mentally too) families, and that's the main reason why I think the idea of being with someone in a romantic relationship much younger is a very high risk. If taken further to having children, (to me) clearly destructive and selfish. I'm aware, there are people who aren't going to share my views and that's fine with me. In general. Like I said, not looking for exceptional circumstances (barely any from what I saw through my understanding of UPB and RTR).

Those unique circumstances would include like perhaps famine, colonisation of Mars/Venus, complete and indefinite erasure of morality from the face of the earth & all the living memory-books-references...but those are impossible standards by the framework of this thread.

 

 

0. Maybe I'm not clear on why a 17yrs old is "someone awesome" to date by a 32yr old. (J.B.P. style - '7yrs ago was 10yrs old') Care to share your thoughts?

0. What would it take to disprove your concept of being with someone ~15yrs younger being a positive thing?

 

 

1. What is the relationship between wisdom and life experience?

2. How likely, is that a teenager is as sexually responsible, as say someone in their mid / late twenties?

3. What is the general likelihood of a teenager being capable of making good decisions lasting a lifetime? (with a mother who didn't have much life experience when getting pregnant and a father who had been looking for a woman specifically like that)

a. the chances of repetitive cycles
b. parents being emotionally distant
c. marriage being strained by envy, jealousy
d. biological, physical obstacles due to age difference

 

4. Why do couples with a (relatively) large age difference usually struggle (amongst maaaany other things) with jealousy and envy?

5. What are the probable upsides and downsides of being with someone smart but UNwise (relative to your own wisdom, ideal standard) ?

6. When wanting a balanced relationship (in terms of deferral based on merit), how important it is to be with a partner that can be assertive to say no when they have good reason(s) to disagree?

7. How common and what impressions do you get when listening to couples' description(s) of their own relationship, whom are 7+, 8+,9...14+ yrs in age difference? Is there a trend you might be noticing?

8. If the partner was unattractive but the same age (still, much younger), would the prospect of staying in the relationship hold the same incentive? (ie. - plenty more virtues apart from the fertility aspect which ISN'T a virtue {<- because it requires no effort to achieve})

9. If there were more couples with such a large age difference(14yrs+), what message would that convey to young people? (about men, about women)

10. Given that the life expectancy of men is 6,7..yrs lower, in a couple that with the 14yrs+ age gap,
->
What are the most likely consequences of the father passing away (at least) 20 YRS, TWO DECADES EARLIER than the mother?

 

11. What message does marrying someone 14yrs younger conveys to the immediate family?

a. How easy/difficult integration of the young partner into the family is? (women members resentment/level of respect towards the partner and/ family member marrying -> therefore the impact of it on the fabric on the family unit and its extension?)

 

12. In which countries, cultures is it common to find couples with such a massive age gap?

a. How compatible is their value system with the Western world?
b. Is their chosen way of life best described by objective standards as being on the organic or coerced side of things?

As in:
 (forced marriage, physical threat, social austerity, un-evolved...{ not de-evolved!, big difference} societal organisation )

vs.

(peaceful parenting, involved parents who hold their children's wellbeing and individuality above their own self interest... but I repeat myself... ie. - when self-ownership upheld, respected, encouraged)

... I guess those are the first dozen ideas to come to mind for me. I hope at least some of them prove to be useful.

+1 What's wrong with her parents that they allow it? If they don't know, why are they sabotaging their child?

[ticketyboo]

On 8/16/2018 at 6:29 PM, smarterthanone said:

I am about to be 32 and I am now dating a 17 year old (yes its legal where I live).

What do her parents say?

Here's a wild guess: she's a daughter of a single mom or she has daddy issues. If true, neither one is an automatic deal-breaker. You just need to be aware of how that will affect her behavior and your relationship.

 

[smarterthanone]

On 9/13/2018 at 9:06 PM, Elizbaeth said:

I’m sure no one else has posted on here because it’s sorta a delicate subject, what with the age difference and all. You understand why people might be skeptical about this.

That being said, I’ve read your past comments about dating and have felt a lot of sympathy for you, and have hoped you could find someone compatible who you could be happy with. All else aside, I don’t think the age difference in itself is a real barrier. I actually think it could work in both of your favors in some circumstances. As long as you know your own intentions and are acting with the upmost integrity, and she is, too, then it might be perfect. 

Best wishes! 

 

Thank you. And yes. I take care to be extra straight forward and responsible for our communications.

 

On 9/14/2018 at 1:13 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

This is actually an interesting update that I just didn't notice.

 

I'm not sure whether to congratulate you though: on one hand I cannot fathom loving a girl (compared to a mentally mature woman) however I know that's your thing and if you can get a girl than I can surely find a woman. I'd rather see fellow eccentric males succeed than fail, after all.

 

But it's also too early to say; I suspect she may have lied to you about her lack of virginity as it's considered shameful to be a female virgin in some parts of the West. However I guess there's one obvious way YOU could find out and verify...

 

...But that's none of my business. The important thing is that you found a girl to... groom? Honestly it's creepy as fuck but I guess it's better than a feminist or reckless nut-job. But just about anyone is. And your tastes are almost the opposite of mine, so I guess it's hard for me to congratulate what'd be a failure for me. 

I don't think immaturity is bad per se, providing you are above the curve for your age and doing the right things with your life, I am not with her for her wisdom today, I am with her because of her willingness to learn in a logical manner and I can see she will become wise as she ages. If it's creepy enough for a large portion of all humans ancestors and still a large portion of the world, it's creepy enough for me. Creepy is not an argument.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

Another important point to make before all, is that I'm for, pro- strong and healthy (emotionally - mentally too) families, and that's the main reason why I think the idea of being with someone in a romantic relationship much younger is a very high risk. If taken further to having children, (to me) clearly destructive and selfish. I'm aware, there are people who aren't going to share my views and that's fine with me. In general. Like I said, not looking for exceptional circumstances (barely any from what I saw through my understanding of UPB and RTR).

Where is the proof that it is inherently high risk and unstable?

It seems super functional to both of us. I clearly provide certain characteristics and functions in the relationship and she clearly provides certain characteristics and functions in the relationship. If you like RPG games, think of it like I am the warrior and she is the archer. Instead of two half ass'd fighters because they try to do two things acceptably, we are both specialists who do our one thing at an exceptional level. With clear responsibilities, super functional.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

0. What would it take to disprove your concept of being with someone ~15yrs younger being a positive thing?

A 25 year old virgin who though science could have children 8 years longer than the average woman.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

1. What is the relationship between wisdom and life experience?

I am not with her because she is wise, I am with her because she "gets it". Which is wise for her age for sure. There are tons of 30 year old women who don't "get it".

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

2. How likely, is that a teenager is as sexually responsible, as say someone in their mid / late twenties?

In what way? Teens are having sex far earlier than ever before. It's actually difficult to even find a virgin dating as young as I do. Most girls are losing it around 14 now. So practically, Stefan and the science says to go for a virgin, practically I think its impossible unless you date super young or join an ultra conservative religious group.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

3. What is the general likelihood of a teenager being capable of making good decisions lasting a lifetime? (with a mother who didn't have much life experience when getting pregnant and a father who had been looking for a woman specifically like that)

a. the chances of repetitive cycles
b. parents being emotionally distant
c. marriage being strained by envy, jealousy
d. biological, physical obstacles due to age difference

a. You are making the mistake of my other post ("conservative women are also falling for the liberal disease"). I hope if I have daughters they would marry young and use their inherent SMV to get a successful, attractive, intelligent man that will make them happy. As opposed to slum it around on some college campus banging losers who 99% of them will never accomplish anything. Why do men pretend that is what they want for their daughters? "Not my daughter, no man is going to date my daughter and marry her, shes going to college to do drugs and hookup and possibly become a single mom." *Sigh*

b. proof of claim?

c. proof of claim?

d. I am not that old, little to no problems as far as potential children are concerned.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

4. Why do couples with a (relatively) large age difference usually struggle (amongst maaaany other things) with jealousy and envy?

Most done in this century are not done for traditional values. So I wouldn't count those relationships as having any similarity. The main purpose of an age difference is for the children. If the couple doesn't have children, they were only doing it for sex/money. Obviously important for making children and living a happy life but to focus on them as an end in itself is selfish and disgusting.

And who is jealous of who or envious of who?

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

5. What are the probable upsides and downsides of being with someone smart but UNwise (relative to your own wisdom, ideal standard) ?

She is wise enough to listen to what I have to say and use my wisdom to supplement her own.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

6. When wanting a balanced relationship (in terms of deferral based on merit), how important it is to be with a partner that can be assertive to say no when they have good reason(s) to disagree?

She is assertive. She is also smart enough to listen to me and trust what I say when I speak from experience. An example: She had a social situation with friends she shared with me and I gave my experience and she disagreed but realized I had been in that situation countless times so she decided on her own to try it my way and it solved the problem for her.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

7. How common and what impressions do you get when listening to couples' description(s) of their own relationship, whom are 7+, 8+,9...14+ yrs in age difference? Is there a trend you might be noticing?

I don't specifically notice it too much. However I just saw one of my friends posts on Facebook about their parents being a couple since she was 13 and he was 19. Which is not as much of a difference but she was very very young and the post was about how they are still married now I think 56 years later. I also know one family with I think a 17 year difference and they have a ton of kids and have been together over 20 years. I've known shitty quality men though to date younger women and they only do it because they can pretend to be higher quality than they actually are. But I am not a shitty quality man looking for some sex, so I don't really count those relationships as being what I would be a part of.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

8. If the partner was unattractive but the same age (still, much younger), would the prospect of staying in the relationship hold the same incentive? (ie. - plenty more virtues apart from the fertility aspect which ISN'T a virtue {<- because it requires no effort to achieve})

Obviously not the same because its not the same. I will say she isn't the most attractive girl I have ever dated but she is still very pleasant looking and guys would certainly still check her out and such. So I am not into her because she is the hottest thing I ever saw. But I feel even more intense attraction to her because I see relationship material in front of me instead of someone I am slightly disgusted by who happens to be smoking hot. I always thought I cared about physical attractiveness but damn, its not nearly as important as I thought.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

9. If there were more couples with such a large age difference(14yrs+), what message would that convey to young people? (about men, about women)

Traditional values? Women should have kids and men should protect, provide and lead their household. Sounds fine to me.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

10. Given that the life expectancy of men is 6,7..yrs lower, in a couple that with the 14yrs+ age gap,
->
What are the most likely consequences of the father passing away (at least) 20 YRS, TWO DECADES EARLIER than the mother?

Well that sucks when you put it like that. But you really can't plan your deaths this far out. She would have plenty of kids and grand kids to keep her occupied I would imagine. I would like about 10. And if they average 2 kids per which is low I think coming from very traditional parents, thats 20 grand kids and 10 kids + their spouses so 40 people she can be involved with. Even if all she did was write birthday and graduation cards out that would be a part time job! lol.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

11. What message does marrying someone 14yrs younger conveys to the immediate family?

a. How easy/difficult integration of the young partner into the family is? (women members resentment/level of respect towards the partner and/ family member marrying -> therefore the impact of it on the fabric on the family unit and its extension?)

My family is very small because nobody had kids. So basically its just my parents to worry about and I know they are like ehhh because they imagine me with some business woman or lawyer and having two kids but at the end of the day they really don't care providing I just start having damn kids sooner than later. Both our families are quite small so if we were to continue as a couple and have lots of children we would become the center of the family for both our extended families.

 

On 9/15/2018 at 4:46 AM, barn said:

12. In which countries, cultures is it common to find couples with such a massive age gap?

a. How compatible is their value system with the Western world?
b. Is their chosen way of life best described by objective standards as being on the organic or coerced side of things?

As in:
 (forced marriage, physical threat, social austerity, un-evolved...{ not de-evolved!, big difference} societal organisation )

vs.

(peaceful parenting, involved parents who hold their children's wellbeing and individuality above their own self interest... but I repeat myself... ie. - when self-ownership upheld, respected, encouraged)

... I guess those are the first dozen ideas to come to mind for me. I hope at least some of them prove to be useful.

I know you are thinking about the middle east in particular. Large age gaps were common everywhere in the past, not necessarily the primary format in all cultures but certainly nothing strange. Today large age gaps have been disappearing as equality of outcome and feminism have been increasing. This creepy factor comes from feminism culture seeped into your upbringing and life experience. That is a bad thing, if you don't believe in feminism just chuck it out the window along with its creepy factor. If more women got married younger to men who were more wise, experienced and could actually provide an income, they wouldn't be out there turning into screeching purple haired Marxists.

Sure in the middle east they have all sorts of problems but I believe that by letting women "out" we have destroyed our society. I don't need to restrict her from driving, or doing anything in particular like that but to let her "run" the household is inviting dumb ass liberal nonsense into our relationships. When women are older and sexually experienced and have their own careers they will at minimum butt heads to run a household. I've seen it over and over again. When women run relationships you get things like polyamory and childlessness. I think when you have nothing but feminazis, you need a culture as restrictive as muslim culture to whip them back into shape. For better or worse, logic and reason do nothing to a crowd of screaming feminists but let 10 Muslim men out at them and they would turn them all into stay at home moms. 

That being said, we should be smart enough to know that just because Hitler liked vanilla ice cream doesn't make vanilla ice cream bad. So just because in some modern societies that still are very accepting of age gap relationships do other things, doesn't make age gap relationships wrong. Even if that was true, large age gap relationships were common in early America. The best country in the world at its founding of freedom and throughout the next 100 years of economic growth normalized large age gaps... so doesn't that make it inherently good? LOL. No it doesn't. But it should be enough to equal out what you are inferring. 

 

12 hours ago, ticketyboo said:

What do her parents say?

Here's a wild guess: she's a daughter of a single mom or she has daddy issues. If true, neither one is an automatic deal-breaker. You just need to be aware of how that will affect her behavior and your relationship.

Her parents are happily married. I have not met them yet, its really too soon. I've met a few girls parents who were 11-13 years younger than me and they all loved me and encouraged the relationships. One even kept pestering the girl to ask me out again even after we ended things. Lol. The culture where I live, at least in conservative circles, is more normal than many other places in the US so I am not extremely worried. And I lived in a very opposite place where it wasn't even legal and seniors who dated anyone younger than a junior in high school were actually shamed sometimes and were subject to legal issues, although it usually didn't turn into anything.

People always assume the parents are trouble but if an intelligent, successful, confident guy came over to meet you and shook your hand and got to know you would you be more upset or less upset than some 19 year old pot head who avoids you like the plague who is hanging out with your daughter in a car parked in the woods. Just think about that for a moment. I've been asked why I would be interested in someone so young and all I do is explain my traditional values and then they usually go "Oh ok cool".

[barn]

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

Where is the proof that it is inherently high risk and unstable?

Currently, I'm unable to reference case studies that aren't biased or incomplete (in my estimation) if that's what you would like to see. However...

The many points I made should give you a good idea on why it's not the best idea, strong arguments (to me) .

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

It seems super functional to both of us.

I'm sure it does to you, why else would you choose to be with her. Right?! (just agreeing, casually)

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

  On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

0. What would it take to disprove your concept of being with someone ~15yrs younger being a positive thing?

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

A 25 year old virgin who though science could have children 8 years longer than the average woman.

Sorry, 'the dealer has run out of the enchanted deck, regular cards it is I'm afraid.' Like, the same for everyone else... (I'm no believer of magic, science person 'n all... )

No, I mean seriously and realistically.

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

1. What is the relationship between wisdom and life experience?

I am not with her because she is wise, I am with her because she "gets it". Which is wise for her age for sure. There are tons of 30 year old women who don't "get it".

This looks evasive. No problem. (as in: I was curious what you thought of the correlation)

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

2. How likely, is that a teenager is as sexually responsible, as say someone in their mid / late twenties?

In what way? Teens are having sex far earlier than ever before. It's actually difficult to even find a virgin dating as young as I do. Most girls are losing it around 14 now. So practically, Stefan and the science says to go for a virgin, practically I think its impossible unless you date super young or join an ultra conservative religious group. 

Two things.

a.  "In what way?" - maturity wise (especially a person who would be with someone +15yrs older, to me at least)

b.  Sure, and it's true (I can see from various objective sources, second hand correlations). There's an increase in teenagers risking more, and are in general less aware of the consequences of their actions.

Still, it's not what I was asking you. No problem.

In fact , I hoped to highlight and ask your take on how much difference is between the attitude towards sexuality among the two groups.

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

  On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

3. What is the general likelihood of a teenager being capable of making good decisions lasting a lifetime? (with a mother who didn't have much life experience when getting pregnant and a father who had been looking for a woman specifically like that)

a. the chances of repetitive cycles
b. parents being emotionally distant
c. marriage being strained by envy, jealousy
d. biological, physical obstacles due to age difference

 

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

a. You are making the mistake of my other post ("conservative women are also falling for the liberal disease"). I hope if I have daughters they would marry young and use their inherent SMV to get a successful, attractive, intelligent man that will make them happy. As opposed to slum it around on some college campus banging losers who 99% of them will never accomplish anything. Why do men pretend that is what they want for their daughters? "Not my daughter, no man is going to date my daughter and marry her, shes going to college to do drugs and hookup and possibly become a single mom." *Sigh* 

It's not what I asked. No problem.

+ Would you be also ok with a +15yrs old marrying your future daughter?

(I couldn't figure out, seemingly you've not mentioned age amongst your preferences here at all)

Oh, one more thing... I recommend that you go back to the thread you've mentioned and look for 'that part' again. What do you think? Have you changed your mind on this specific point?

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

b. proof of claim?

Just basic logic.

Different friend groups, cultural background (at least one degree of separation, similar to coming from different parts of the world though less) , preferred activities, level of maturity... etc.

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

c. proof of claim? 

A pretty, young, good looking girl next to a visibly much older guy (Maybe you're an 8, maybe you're handsome but still) ... you won't wonder (more than 'normal' couples would) about being out of place when people assume you're his uncle, repeatedly?

And that she's about to enter her sexual prime, in 7-8 yrs? (Maybe you're a high earner, even then, hypergamy coupled with physical fitness will eat into your realtionship I'd assume.)

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

d. I am not that old, little to no problems as far as potential children are concerned. 

Inception? - sorry, I didn't mean 'that'

Not that old? No, you are not that old, yet. Nevertheless, you will be. You will be, sooner than you think.

17, 32 (now)

32, 47 (when she gets to your age) sorta like, for you 1/3 lifespan left, 2/3 for her

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

4. Why do couples with a (relatively) large age difference usually struggle (amongst maaaany other things) with jealousy and envy?

Most done in this century are not done for traditional values. So I wouldn't count those relationships as having any similarity. The main purpose of an age difference is for the children. If the couple doesn't have children, they were only doing it for sex/money. Obviously important for making children and living a happy life but to focus on them as an end in itself is selfish and disgusting.

And who is jealous of who or envious of who?

That's not what I asked, but now I realised I could have been leading with my question...

The point I would like to make here is that if your partner is still actively into going out, travelling, meeting new people and all that... that's, that is a source of tension. Obviously people are different but it seems to me straightforward that the majority of people roughly speaking go through very similar epochs during their lifetime. Maybe you and her are exceptions. It's possible.

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

5. What are the probable upsides and downsides of being with someone smart but UNwise (relative to your own wisdom, ideal standard) ? 

She is wise enough to listen to what I have to say and use my wisdom to supplement her own. 

Sorry for being more blunt than usual :

Is this relationship about all the things you want from a relationship?

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

6. When wanting a balanced relationship (in terms of deferral based on merit), how important it is to be with a partner that can be assertive to say no when they have good reason(s) to disagree?

She is assertive. She is also smart enough to listen to me and trust what I say when I speak from experience. An example: She had a social situation with friends she shared with me and I gave my experience and she disagreed but realized I had been in that situation countless times so she decided on her own to try it my way and it solved the problem for her. 

Well, ok. How shall I put it...

Assertiveness to me is to take things through. Not necessarily being successful but instead seeing an idea manifested as closely as possible to its initial form. That does NOT include changing midway due to outside influence.

Also, I had asked 'how important it is' ... you've not answered that. No problem.

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

7. How common and what impressions do you get when listening to couples' description(s) of their own relationship, whom are 7+, 8+,9...14+ yrs in age difference? Is there a trend you might be noticing?

I don't specifically notice it too much. However I just saw one of my friends posts on Facebook about their parents being a couple since she was 13 and he was 19. Which is not as much of a difference but she was very very young and the post was about how they are still married now I think 56 years later. I also know one family with I think a 17 year difference and they have a ton of kids and have been together over 20 years. I've known shitty quality men though to date younger women and they only do it because they can pretend to be higher quality than they actually are. But I am not a shitty quality man looking for some sex, so I don't really count those relationships as being what I would be a part of. 

For me, this would be not enough of a reference base to even start to try to draw some observations from... could be just me.

Would you like to know more about how couples have done in similar situations? It doesn't mean the same is going to be true for the two of you but I'm sure you two could learn a lot of important things. Has she done any research into this?

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

8. If the partner was unattractive but the same age (still, much younger), would the prospect of staying in the relationship hold the same incentive? (ie. - plenty more virtues apart from the fertility aspect which ISN'T a virtue {<- because it requires no effort to achieve})

Obviously not the same because its not the same. I will say she isn't the most attractive girl I have ever dated but she is still very pleasant looking and guys would certainly still check her out and such. So I am not into her because she is the hottest thing I ever saw. But I feel even more intense attraction to her because I see relationship material in front of me instead of someone I am slightly disgusted by who happens to be smoking hot. I always thought I cared about physical attractiveness but damn, its not nearly as important as I thought. 

"I always thought I cared about physical attractiveness but damn, its not nearly as important as I thought. " - Word.

I assume then, you would for certain stay with her should her attractiveness diminish abruptly... Is that correct? (ie.- an 8,7 -> 5-6)

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

9. If there were more couples with such a large age difference(14yrs+), what message would that convey to young people? (about men, about women) 

Traditional values? Women should have kids and men should protect, provide and lead their household. Sounds fine to me. 

The question was open, non-specific in the areas of interest...

Though don't see how your answer is relevant to couples with a 14yrs+ age difference. (Maybe you did, I can't tell)

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

10. Given that the life expectancy of men is 6,7..yrs lower, in a couple that with the 14yrs+ age gap,
->
What are the most likely consequences of the father passing away (at least) 20 YRS, TWO DECADES EARLIER than the mother?

Well that sucks when you put it like that. But you really can't plan your deaths this far out. She would have plenty of kids and grand kids to keep her occupied I would imagine. I would like about 10. And if they average 2 kids per which is low I think coming from very traditional parents, thats 20 grand kids and 10 kids + their spouses so 40 people she can be involved with. Even if all she did was write birthday and graduation cards out that would be a part time job! lol. 

C'mon maaan, "when you put it like that"... I was just trying to highlight an essential quality of the relationship you're choosing... it's part and parcel.

I don't think I'm able to argue against future wishes, it'd be silly from me.

My point is the image you see in front of your mind's eye when thinking of (in the best scenario I must add) the father disappearing 20 YEARS BEFORE.

Probability assessment (talking to an investor :-p) is no sealed envelope but it's what makes smart people reduce their exposure to likely future bad consequences ahead of time. +Luck. (or in other words, randomness)

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

11. What message does marrying someone 14yrs younger conveys to the immediate family?

a. How easy/difficult integration of the young partner into the family is? (women members resentment/level of respect towards the partner and/ family member marrying -> therefore the impact of it on the fabric on the family unit and its extension?)

My family is very small because nobody had kids. So basically its just my parents to worry about and I know they are like ehhh because they imagine me with some business woman or lawyer and having two kids but at the end of the day they really don't care providing I just start having damn kids sooner than later. Both our families are quite small so if we were to continue as a couple and have lots of children we would become the center of the family for both our extended families. 

I'm sorry to hear that. Big families usually are more fun, support, 'headaches'.

Ok.

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

  On 09/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, barn said:

12. In which countries, cultures is it common to find couples with such a massive age gap?

a. How compatible is their value system... [...]

 

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

I know you are thinking about the middle east in particular. Large age gaps were common everywhere in the past, not necessarily the primary format in all cultures but certainly nothing strange. Today large age gaps have been disappearing as equality of outcome and feminism have been increasing. This creepy factor comes from feminism culture seeped into your upbringing and life experience. That is a bad thing, if you don't believe in feminism just chuck it out the window along with its creepy factor. If more women got married younger to men who were more wise, experienced and could actually provide an income, they wouldn't be out there turning into screeching purple haired Marxists. 

Almost. India mainly but the middle east too.

Yes, I'm aware of the age at which families used to be created was lower... the further you go back in time, the greater the age gap.

Plus until monogamy was wide spread...

I know. It's not that. And I also agree with your suggestion of 'swiftly catapulting certain ideas straight out through the window' (not that certain elements of feminism aren't contributing positively to society, well definitely not any of the 3rd wave... anyhow).

It's that I don't think she has the capacity or life experience to accurately conceive the ramifications of a relationship with someone ~14yrs older AT AGE 17.

Annnd, I think it would be the same 'unknowable' for girls in India or the middle east per se. The thing is, over there it's not nearly as easy to get separated or divorced.

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

Sure in the middle east they have all sorts of problems but I believe that by letting women "out" we have destroyed our society.

Not sure what you mean exactly by 'letting out' but I gauge it to be extensive detachment from responsibilities... I think it's being over-done, yeah sure. Feminism (in my mind) should be helping more to keep a healthier balance. Women aren't 'keeping an eye' on each other nearly as much as it would be preferable (spike in single motherhood, women in general are getting more depressed, economic load and low ROI in increase of higher education takers, less quality time being spent with offsprings... etc and their obvious consequences we see manifested)

Remembering the traditional values of the family unit would surely help to improve many things (reverse some current trends) I get that too. It just seems (to me), you're 'going back' not decades, instead centuries in time. A bit too much. (still, you two could be rare exceptions)

On 09/16/2018 at 12:57 PM, smarterthanone said:

[...]... The best country in the world at its founding of freedom and throughout the next 100 years of economic growth normalized large age gaps... so doesn't that make it inherently good? LOL. No it doesn't. But it should be enough to equal out what you are inferring.  

I liked how you did look at it from various angles.

Maybe it's me but the society in which large age gaps was normalised is distinctively different from today's world. Living a life similar to what it used to be would be impossible today. 'Amirite' ?!

 

Let me add @smarterthanone it's good on you for having gone through the points (had the best intentions) and thanks for replying so I can understand your thinking better.

Wishing you all the best! (no, seriously)

I hope you will be adequately smart and empathetic about things when you have to. (not suggesting anything else here)

[smarterthanone]

@barn At the end of the day, many men are being faced with poor choices in terms of dating. So much so they are going MGTOW. Personally, I really don't care what people think of me because I am a pretty independent and powerful man, meaning that I don't rely on very many people in life that making them think I was creepy or something can't threaten my income or housing or anything important to me. I also am a go getter, I want something I make it happen. I want a virgin wife for the primary purpose of having a larger family. Period. I can get the kind of woman I want by dating younger, or I could give up. So obviously why should I not do what is in my best interest? I can't think of one reason. I also think its in the young woman's best interest as well, I am not trying to pull one over on anyone. And like all dating, this girl may or may not work out but I intend to only date young women because I don't see any reason to date older women.

[barn]

@smarterthanone

Probably you won't be surprised when I mention that you posting about your situation, the way you did it on a public and (!) Philosophy forum (though not necessarily always philosophical in nature) is in no way can be described as NOT pre-meditated (further proof as well, the structure you'd used to introduce the topic) .

What was/is your chosen preference and goal for posting? (I haven't seen you spell it out and prefer to ask than guess)

[Elizbaeth]

On 9/14/2018 at 4:15 PM, barn said:

You do realise it makes it hard for me to not see it as an exaggerated opinion

Hey @barn !! Ok. I appreciate all the response and will try to give you some thorough feedback. So, for the above quote, you should take it as an exaggerated opinion. I was not being Spock-literal, and was blowing a perceived tendency into an hyperbole. I will take the pointer and work to not use needless exaggerations like that. 

 

On 9/14/2018 at 4:15 PM, barn said:

Meanwhile I don't mean to minimise your experience and I remain open to discussing specific things you might want to bring up.

Thank you for that. I do appreciate the willingness, quite sincerely. 

 

On 9/14/2018 at 4:15 PM, barn said:

We'd had disagreements, very different approaches and maybe opposing working principles, sure a plenty (in my opinion). It's one of the main reason why I drastically reduced my contributions to your content after a while.

 

I don't mind disagreements. 

 

On 9/14/2018 at 4:15 PM, barn said:

I'm trying to remember when have you expressed this issue you started this post with... I don't think you have ever signaled that there was something off for you or that you couldn't make out the tone/meaning of something I had contributed and therefore would've liked to ask some clarifiers from me... In fact, in my recollections, I seem to remember you asking very few questions (which in itself is ok, i guess). The reason why I'm saying this is because I don't remember refusing to answer you and so what's the other alternative that we're left with?

Is it possible that you've been holding back thoughts, experiencing the interaction based on solely your own interpretation? Am I way off about it?

I don't think you're off... One of the reasons I have asked very little questions of you, when I am unsure of your meaning or whenever I think we are disagreeing, is that I'm not entirely sure myself what it is that is giving me trouble. I have tried to figure it out, precisely, and just really am not sure why I seem to feel foggy whenever we talk. The best analysis I have been able to come up with is that it seems like you typically open conversation with a vague, slightly negatively connoting remark, wait for me to take the bait, and then it feels like I get slammed with so much analytical, so very technical language that I don't even feel like I'm talking about the main, original topic anymore, and I just feel very bogged down in a case of extreme hair-splitting. I don't know for sure where the problem lies, though, and I think that this feels like such a big hindrance to gainful conversation that I simply try to avoid getting into - what seems to me - an impossible tangle, and have usually just tried to restate what I said with more clarity, hoping that I just didn't state things in a good enough manner to be received well, and that if I communicate better, the fog will magically lift. I guess it's hard to ask questions when I'm not exactly sure what it is that throws me off... I feel like I'm mostly just guessing. I know that's not a scientific way to do this, and I will try to ask more specific questions. 

 

 

On 9/14/2018 at 4:15 PM, barn said:

Funny, this clarifier could have saved you from asking all the others.

Hah. 

On 9/14/2018 at 4:15 PM, barn said:

See above, but my 'crux' was with someone confidently stating a knowledge claim about something they couldn't have possessed or acquired in any fashion other than interviewing each individual having read the thread. Moreover, in this scenario I am also involved (board member 'n all), read it ANNND I also have quite a few different reasons than what you'd assumed. But I didn't want to sound too stern so I decided to throttle down, make it gentle-cute reminder. (I guess it didn't work for you, against my best intentions... lol)

Lol thank you for the emojis. Yes, I see how my statement was not appropriate, as I could not have possible known every single person's opinion about this, and also how making a statement like that was me trying to mind-read. Mind-reading is something I am very often guilty of. I don't think I always realize that I do it, because I do it quite naturally. 

 

On 9/14/2018 at 1:13 PM, Siegfried von Walheim said:

on one hand I cannot fathom loving a girl (compared to a mentally mature woman) however I know that's your thing and if you can get a girl than I can surely find a woman. I'd rather see fellow eccentric males succeed than fail, after all.

Maybe it's not a mature, seasoned love. I don't know that it could be with being so young and inexperienced. But it could be a ripe grounds for growing a loving partnership. I find it very romantic to be bound together and to grow together. I was talking to another woman the other day who told me she and her husband had been together since she was 14 (obviously not married then - they married after college) and that she had been friends with and known him since 1st grade. She said she thought the secret to their relationship was they they choose each other and then sort of grew up together, and formed their values and goals and personalities together. He would obviously have to take on a fatherly role for a few years, but that would eventually change, as she grew and learned and came into her own, and then they would be in sync with one another, with a young family already blossoming. It is not nothing for a young girl to be taken notice of, and loved and committed to in the prime of her youth, to be cherished as the years rolled by. As long as he is being upfront about intentions of marriage and holding to very careful standards of conduct (I would think having sex or physical relations with this girl, if marriage and commitment is not firmly agreed to, would be devastating to her and would make him into quite the power-wielding user), I can't see any wrongness at all. I see some very strong possible benefits. 

 

On 9/16/2018 at 6:57 AM, smarterthanone said:

I don't think immaturity is bad per se, providing you are above the curve for your age and doing the right things with your life, I am not with her for her wisdom today, I am with her because of her willingness to learn in a logical manner and I can see she will become wise as she ages. If it's creepy enough for a large portion of all humans ancestors and still a large portion of the world, it's creepy enough for me. Creepy is not an argument.

What I think is creepy is a 17 year old girl being allowed to date a 17 year old boy. Why would that ever be a good idea? What will come out of that? Nothing, except for a bruised heart and sexual exploration. As long as the older guy isn't preying upon her youth and naivety, I don't see it as creepy. I just think the standards you have to act by are just going to have to be that much higher. But again. I don't think you're a bad guy or a dumb guy. I think you've been tired of the dating game and wanting to settle down for a while. 

 

People used to tell me to "leave room for Jesus" if I was with a boy. We might all be satisfied on here if you "leave room for Stefan and virtue" on here. WWSD? 

[smarterthanone]

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

Maybe it's not a mature, seasoned love. I don't know that it could be with being so young and inexperienced. But it could be a ripe grounds for growing a loving partnership. I find it very romantic to be bound together and to grow together. I was talking to another woman the other day who told me she and her husband had been together since she was 14 (obviously not married then - they married after college) and that she had been friends with and known him since 1st grade. She said she thought the secret to their relationship was they they choose each other and then sort of grew up together, and formed their values and goals and personalities together. He would obviously have to take on a fatherly role for a few years, but that would eventually change, as she grew and learned and came into her own, and then they would be in sync with one another, with a young family already blossoming. It is not nothing for a young girl to be taken notice of, and loved and committed to in the prime of her youth, to be cherished as the years rolled by. As long as he is being upfront about intentions of marriage and holding to very careful standards of conduct (I would think having sex or physical relations with this girl, if marriage and commitment is not firmly agreed to, would be devastating to her and would make him into quite the power-wielding user), I can't see any wrongness at all. I see some very strong possible benefits. 

Yes. I was in a very long term relationship where we grew up together (and I was the fatherly responsible one even though we were the same age). That was great. That is part of what made it awesome and fulfilling.

 

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

What I think is creepy is a 17 year old girl being allowed to date a 17 year old boy. Why would that ever be a good idea? What will come out of that? Nothing, except for a bruised heart and sexual exploration. As long as the older guy isn't preying upon her youth and naivety, I don't see it as creepy. I just think the standards you have to act by are just going to have to be that much higher. But again. I don't think you're a bad guy or a dumb guy. I think you've been tired of the dating game and wanting to settle down for a while. 

Yeah. This is part of the thing I don't understand why people are putting down age gap relationships, providing the older person is well intentioned and straight forward, anything that happens, even if it doesn't work out, is going to be far less damaging than what some idiot irresponsible 17 year old might do.

 

1 hour ago, Elizbaeth said:

People used to tell me to "leave room for Jesus" if I was with a boy. We might all be satisfied on here if you "leave room for Stefan and virtue" on here. WWSD? 

I would rather leave room for Jesus because I cannot picture him in my head. Stef would remove all sexual attraction altogether, and a little tension is good thing to have.

 

[barn]

8 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

On 09/14/2018 at 10:15 PM, barn said:

You do realise it makes it hard for me to not see it as an exaggerated opinion

Hey @barn !! Ok. I appreciate all the response and will try to give you some thorough feedback. So, for the above quote, you should take it as an exaggerated opinion. I was not being Spock-literal, and was blowing a perceived tendency into an hyperbole. I will take the pointer and work to not use needless exaggerations like that.  

Appreciate that, looks sincere. I can respect that.

Moving past it.

8 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

On 09/14/2018 at 10:15 PM, barn said:

Meanwhile I don't mean to minimise your experience and I remain open to discussing specific things you might want to bring up.

Thank you for that. I do appreciate the willingness, quite sincerely.  

8 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

On 09/14/2018 at 10:15 PM, barn said:

We'd had disagreements, very different approaches and maybe opposing working principles, sure a plenty (in my opinion). It's one of the main reason why I drastically reduced my contributions to your content after a while.

  

I don't mind disagreements. 

That's cool, me neither.

8 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I don't think you're off... One of the reasons I have asked very little questions of you, when I am unsure of your meaning or whenever I think we are disagreeing, is that I'm not entirely sure myself what it is that is giving me trouble. I have tried to figure it out, precisely, and just really am not sure why I seem to feel foggy whenever we talk. .. [...]

It might sound 'captain obvious' stuff, if you don't mind me suggesting:

Ask! Express! Engage with more! (I'm always open to genuine curiosity/constructivity)

8 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

I guess it's hard to ask questions when I'm not exactly sure what it is that throws me off... I feel like I'm mostly just guessing. I know that's not a scientific way to do this, and I will try to ask more specific questions.  

I would re-read some chapters from the Real Time Relationships book Stefan Molyneux has written

But if you are looking for some quick ideas...

A few stems, might consider them in the future in our conversations (or in others too, perhaps), again sorry if it's yet another seemingly obvious stuff... (best intentions here)

° When you wrote/said  ____ , I felt strange like ____ and don't know why. Any ideas?

° This doesn't sit well with something I can't yet put into words. Can you reformulate it, maybe then it becomes clearer?

° Any ideas why ____ might be a little controversial for some people?

8 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Mind-reading is something I am very often guilty of. I don't think I always realize that I do it, because I do it quite naturally.  

Kudos on your honesty  @Elizbaeth I definitely appreciate and thank you for it.

Alright. How about reducing the number of occurrences by 5%, forget about 'the whole 9 yards' for now. Sounds reasonable, right? (I will remember to help if I can, when I see it could be constructive... by the way, it's a 'two way street', I encourage you to do the same if you see me doing it... with the same token, ask moore people WITHIN your circle of trust to supplement your focus, be assertive on how important it is for your clarity. Virtuous people will just nod and follow up, most likely. By first principles, they're obliged.)

 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

3 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Maybe it's not a mature, seasoned love. I don't know that it could be with being so young and inexperienced. But it could be a ripe grounds for growing a loving partnership. I find it very romantic to be bound together and to grow together. I was talking to another woman the other day who told me she and her husband had been together since she was 14 (obviously not married then - they married after college) and that she had been friends with and known him since 1st grade. She said she thought the secret to their relationship was they they choose each other and then sort of grew up together, and formed their values and goals and personalities together. He would obviously have to take on a fatherly role for a few years, but that would eventually change, as she grew and learned and came into her own, and then they would be in sync with one another, with a young family already blossoming. It is not nothing for a young girl to be taken notice of, and loved and committed to in the prime of her youth, to be cherished as the years rolled by. As long as he is being upfront about intentions of marriage and holding to very careful standards of conduct (I would think having sex or physical relations with this girl, if marriage and commitment is not firmly agreed to, would be devastating to her and would make him into quite the power-wielding user), I can't see any wrongness at all. I see some very strong possible benefits. 

You do realize it's far more likely for Uncle Joe to take advantage of the young girl (not even a woman) rather then "respectfully/honstly groom her", right? It's damn creepy; the balance of power, mentally, experience-wise, etc. is so great I would leave it to your imagination if I had a young daughter and she was dating some 30+ year old.

Considering I'm looking for a woman that is--in short--serene, sweet, loving, and motherly, I don't think inspecting cradles is the best way. My mother is 12 years younger than my father so looking up, I can see a Hell of a lot of reasons to NOT go looking below deck (however he was in his forties and she her late twenties, so at least they were adults). Besides, that example of a guy and his wife growing together is not possible with an already-grown man grooming a much younger woman. If you really don't like Middle Eastern grooming gangs, why are you endorsing its softer equivalent? 

And what you say is "not nothing for a young girl..." is also true of young boys (and really, young men too). However I don't expect some slightly older woman of great character to notice me before I'm a proven male and to take great interest in me. And grooming me? Good God that's suspicious, don't you think?

Morally the wrongness is obvious: the balance of mental power is so significant I'm tempted to call it "rape". Refer to my first paragraph for more on that. Practically it's variable: for a weak man that wants a girl he can control, sure--I guess. But for a decent man looking for a woman he can rely on? Definitely not. I won't discount the possibility of a younger woman, especially once I'm approaching 30 (assuming I'm unmarried by then), but several of the key reasons why he's looking for someone so young is explicitly to not be challenged, to be deferred to, and of course for the fertility window. While I empathize with the third thing, the first two things are red flags. He could say "not be challenged" in the context of not being nagged or pointlessly challenged (like by someone who clearly doesn't know what she's talking about) and "to be deferred to" in regards to things she knows little/nothing and he knows something, but I'd rather to just find a woman who knows what she's talking about then try to find an obedient girl. 

[Siegfried von Walheim]

On 9/16/2018 at 6:57 AM, smarterthanone said:

I don't think immaturity is bad per se, providing you are above the curve for your age and doing the right things with your life, I am not with her for her wisdom today, I am with her because of her willingness to learn in a logical manner and I can see she will become wise as she ages. If it's creepy enough for a large portion of all humans ancestors and still a large portion of the world, it's creepy enough for me. Creepy is not an argument.

Considering most of our ancestors were either primitive barbarians or cruel savages, I hardly consider that an argument. "Creepy" is an expression; I made no argument because I have no intention of changing your mind. Perhaps you'll prove me wrong, practically speaking. That would be interesting.

Grooming a girl into womanhood is sketchy from and outsider's view--where the Hell is her dad? I guess we know what kind of family she comes from, then--and the best possible scenario I can imagine is essentially semi-incest because you're simultaneously "dad" and "lover" practically speaking. 

Ultimately though; I'm looking for a sweet, serene, and motherly woman I can rely on. I'm not looking to groom a girl or domesticate a wild mare. I have no idea where I'll find a remotely decent woman but I'm sure she's saying the same thing about the men. Billions of people make for a big world.

[MahtiSonni]

17 is a pretty good age for a girl to find a good husband. At that age not very many have managed to ruin themselves following pop culture lifestyle.

[smarterthanone]

10 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Ultimately though; I'm looking for a sweet, serene, and motherly woman I can rely on. I'm not looking to groom a girl or domesticate a wild mare. I have no idea where I'll find a remotely decent woman but I'm sure she's saying the same thing about the men. Billions of people make for a big world.

If you want a decent woman who has already "arrived" at her destination of being the woman of your dreams, and you want to takes Stefs advice and marry a virgin. It does not exist. There is no woman like that. I am 31 years old and have never met one or even heard a story about one existing. Try to find a girl that just has potential and then see her through.

 

10 hours ago, MahtiSonni said:

17 is a pretty good age for a girl to find a good husband. At that age not very many have managed to ruin themselves following pop culture lifestyle.

Yeah, this is the whole point. I've tried dating older girls and its pointless. And by older I am talking like 24.

[ticketyboo]

On 9/23/2018 at 8:09 PM, smarterthanone said:

On 9/23/2018 at 10:01 AM, MahtiSonni said:

17 is a pretty good age for a girl to find a good husband. At that age not very many have managed to ruin themselves following pop culture lifestyle.

Yeah, this is the whole point. I've tried dating older girls and its pointless. And by older I am talking like 24.

24 is after college. Double digit cock count by then.