When you observe yourself

[d4d0ff70]

What are you observing? Are you observing an "i" that exist? Or are you observing the cumulative effect of your sense perceptions? What makes you sure that other animals with sense perceptions dont have a sense of embodiment that you do?

[barn]

Hi @d4d0ff70

Welcome to the board and posting (?)

 

...

 

Do I remember correctly that you've posted some time ago a thread where you called M. Cernovich a 'brain-damaged druggy'? (Just checking, my memory doesn't always work top notch)

On 09/16/2018 at 7:03 AM, d4d0ff70 said:

What are you observing? Are you observing an "i" that exist? Or are you observing the cumulative effect of your sense perceptions? What makes you sure that other animals with sense perceptions dont have a sense of embodiment that you do? 

Consciousness and the ability to handle abstractions in the way that allows for the manifestation of free-will is an emergent property solely present in humans... as far as existing and verifiable evidence goes. (hence why you are posting here, not on any non-existent forum created by any other creature(s) out there... I hope)

In other words, pattern recognition and execution of a chain of actions is not consciousness but a small 'slice' of a larger and unique (one of a kind) 'cake' .

Regards,

Barnsley

[Siegfried von Walheim]

I am observing myself, as I exist, as I am growing into this or that--trying to make sure I'm growing upwards rather than shrinking.

 

I have no way of knowing how reflective animals are and I don't care; I'm a human supremacist lol. 

[RichardY]

Mirror test.

[barn]

I really detest content that's to the extreme from what's reasonably conceived as 'succinct' and goes further than 'terse'... so ignorant, so demanding.

Anyhow... /mirror test/

I mean it seriously, wasn't rambling!

caveat: jokes, puns, giggly stuff is an exception to this.

Edited September 26, 2018 by barn
added caveat about puns, jokes, giggly stuff

[RichardY]

I would highly sceptical of ants being able to recognise themselves in the mirror, might be a reflex action to clean other ants. The rest though sound plausible, communicating through body language.

[barn]

WARNING!  (leading response)

Ants don't (can't) read the most popular philosophy forum in the world!

Please, be more detailed (+1%) would be better in my estimation. It's a preference, don't have to do anything about it if you don't want to.

[RichardY]

Yes sometimes language can cause confusion, or be confusion itself. When I say "the rest sound plausible" I mean of cause the other animals and not body language attributes of the ants, only really glanced through the article. Reminds me a bit of Bram Stroker's Dracula. There is a section in the book where they are unloading boxes of soil from Dracula's native homeland. However, he has no idea that he actually has the strength of ten men, and can lift the boxes himself without the teamsters/dockhands.

[barn]

No, that doesn't cut it for me.

(as in: you don't have to give a flying purple 'biscuit' about it... a subjective preference with some reasonable pointers towards 'making sense in a way so it does simultaneously to a larger than 'privi' minority... reasonable, right?)

What language?... two words.... A'right, there's the capital + full stop too... still, terse as 'fffunky-dorey'. Objectively speaking, right?

 

ps. - as always, thank you for the random references when they appear (avid, curious, insatiable mind here too)

 

- - - 25.09.2018 - - -

Hi 'doorbell enthusiast' (voter without merit, substance),

Arrow, non-substance... (presses 'F')...'Donesky'!, an equal.

[RichardY]

Body language as in showing aggression or teeth but more subtle, perhaps the linking of that of various things of value. For instance, if another animal sees another is sick associating that with a negative value. If another has an expression of joy over eating associating that with a value.

But as written and spoken language often involves, perhaps a conjugation of opposites, it is by it nature con-fusing. Left contains the notion of right, associations and definitions change, left means nothing without right.

[barn]

If I am assessing the dynamic accurately @RichardY, the originator of your most recent post has left to 'abstraction land' a few posts ago.

(other than the assessment, I don't mean to 'say' anything else)

[RichardY]

Well to be honest I'm kind of fed up with your passive aggressiveness, as another forum member has noted. And the fact your posts are highly fragmented and your "absolutely certain" assumptions wrong. Whether posts are abstract or not, I don't see why that matters. You want empiricism go be a scientist and conduct your own experiments, I have google and reason on the forum. If it were up to me I'd add a warning for passive aggressiveness to try and maintain quality, 3 strikes and you're out.

[barn]

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

It sounds like you have stopped with the abstractions.

Would you agree with me on my first response?

as in: being terse (two words, ants, abstractions) is less preferable than say +1% increment towards expanding?

[RichardY]

23 minutes ago, barn said:

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

It sounds like you have stopped with the abstractions.

Would you agree with me on my first response?

as in: being terse (two words, ants, abstractions) is less preferable than say +1% increment towards expanding?

AGAIN!!!!! with the passive aggressiveness.

[barn]

1 minute ago, RichardY said:

AGAIN!!!!! with the passive aggressiveness.

...

No worries if you decline to answer.

Do you decline?

[RichardY]

On 9/25/2018 at 12:39 AM, barn said:

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

It sounds like you have stopped with the abstractions.

Would you agree with me on my first response?

The guy's original question was about embodiment, and you go off on a tangent talking about Freewill and saying that human's are the only species to exhibit it, and which you define as an emergent property. I'm not the one going off to abstraction land.

On 9/24/2018 at 4:44 PM, barn said:

Do I remember correctly that you've posted some time ago a thread where you called M. Cernovich a 'brain-damaged druggy'? (Just checking, my memory doesn't always work top notch)

Consciousness and the ability to handle abstractions in the way that allows for the manifestation of free-will is an emergent property solely present in humans... as far as existing and verifiable evidence goes. (hence why you are posting here, not on any non-existent forum created by any other creature(s) out there... I hope)

I referenced the mirror test. I have no idea what empirical experiments have been conducted. I'm not interested in isolated data for the sake of it, but it's implications. Sure I'd look at scientific data, but I have no idea who I could trust with a high degree of certainty, so in the informal setting that is the forum, I am limited to anecdotes and the spirit of the participants.

[barn]

19 hours ago, RichardY said:

On 09/25/2018 at 1:39 AM, barn said:

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

It sounds like you have stopped with the abstractions.

Would you agree with me on my first response?

 The guy's original question was about...

Ah, I see. This could have been confusing to you.

No problem. Maybe this will help. The same quote with some addition in bold and then an example with another post from later...

 

"

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

It sounds like you have stopped with the abstractions.

Would you agree with me on my first response to your first post (, the one with two words in it) ?

"

As in: ( in a later comment of mine with funny expressions, where I was trying to provide more arguments for you at the same time, expressing my preference for being 'non-cryptic' so that there's a higher chance that it'll make sense for more people than a just a small minority, without any obligation for anyone, including you of course. )

this one:

On 09/25/2018 at 12:45 AM, barn said:

No, that doesn't cut it for me.

(as in: you don't have to give a flying purple 'biscuit' about it... a subjective preference with some reasonable pointers towards 'making sense in a way so it does simultaneously to a larger than 'privi' minority... reasonable, right?)

What language?... two words.... A'right, there's the capital + full stop too... still, terse as 'fffunky-dorey'. Objectively speaking, right? 

 

ps. - as always, thank you for the random references when they appear (avid, curious, insatiable mind here too) 

Does it make more sense to you now?

Also, when someone is being 'cryptic' or so much so 'reduced' (not to be confused with a statement in the shape of 'Period.') for a joke or a pun, that's different in my opinion. I don't think you meant those two words as a joke or a pun. Obviously now, having read your other contributions that's crystal clear.

Still, it's/it was about a preference I have, with some reasonable arguments for it. I'm/will be ok with you not agreeing and thinking two word contributions are ok in similar setups, can't do anything else other than try to make you see my meaning and reasons for it. What you do with it is entirely up to you. Please note that my strong dislike was with the content and not with the person. Same is true for a few individuals doing the same repeatedly in other threads. (it's few)

 

 

- - - 26.09.2018 - - -

Howdy 'doorbell enthusiast' (voter without merit, visibly coward)

Don't be afraid to make an argument, I don't bite... generally

[RichardY]

Again passive aggression. Cr*p content

[barn]

1 hour ago, RichardY said:

Again passive aggression. Cr*p content

I don't think by repeating anything it can become any more or less. Maybe for ideologues, I guess.

Is that true? (I certainly think so)

However if it's just an empty opinion,

ok.

It's not me who just got an inch closer to being 'possessed' by an idea.

[d4d0ff70]

On 9/25/2018 at 1:44 AM, barn said:

Do I remember correctly that you've posted some time ago a thread where you called M. Cernovich a 'brain-damaged druggy'? (Just checking, my memory doesn't always work top notch)

On 9/16/2018 at 3:03 PM, d4d0ff70 said:

lol no. i pointed out that stefan labels anyone who has taken "drugs" (whatever that means but specifically psychedelics) as being brain damaged (as he thinks psychedelics causes brain damage). it was in reference to cernovich's use of 5meodmt but the thread got deleted now i'm under mod watch. so yes your memory is faulty.

 

Quote

Consciousness and the ability to handle abstractions in the way that allows for the manifestation of free-will is an emergent property solely present in humans... as far as existing and verifiable evidence goes. (hence why you are posting here, not on any non-existent forum created by any other creature(s) out there... I hope)

In other words, pattern recognition and execution of a chain of actions is not consciousness but a small 'slice' of a larger and unique (one of a kind) 'cake' .

so yeah i'm not talking about free will at all. i'm talking about the idea of embodiment, the idea that one is an entity that exists in a unique body separate from corporeal reality. the point is embodiment comes from sense perceptions, and embodiment is necessary for suffering (there is no suffering without an "I" which suffers). so as other animals have sense perceptions, and if the I is intrinsically linked to /cannot be separated from these perceptions then it stands to reason that other animals possess a sense of embodiment much like our own. just because a crow cannot solve differential geometry problems does not mean the crow doesn't have a sense that it is a unique organism.

 

but jsut quickly about your assertion only humans have the ability for abstract thought and pattern recognition - not true. apes, chimps, crows, dolphins all have the ability to solve abstract problems. Dogs even have pattern recognition in that they can understand commands, and can link those commands to an abstract idea (even if it is just as simple as "get the ball"). although "get the ball" might seem simple to us on the face of it, it is by no means trivial in terms of neurocognitive processing.

Edited October 2, 2018 by d4d0ff70
trying to fix that weird quote formatting but i trust you can discern your words from mine teehee

[barn]

On 10/2/2018 at 8:31 AM, d4d0ff70 said:

trying to fix that weird quote formatting but i trust you can discern your words from mine teehee

No worries.

On 10/2/2018 at 8:31 AM, d4d0ff70 said:

lol no. i pointed out that stefan labels anyone who has taken "drugs" (whatever that means but specifically psychedelics) as being brain damaged (as he thinks psychedelics causes brain damage). it was in reference to cernovich's use of 5meodmt but the thread got deleted now i'm under mod watch. so yes your memory is faulty. 

Thanks for adding your take. It helped me compare with what I was curious about.

On 10/2/2018 at 8:31 AM, d4d0ff70 said:

but jsut quickly about your assertion only humans have the ability for abstract thought and pattern recognition - not true. apes, chimps, crows, dolphins all have the ability to solve abstract problems. 

Um... that's only partially what I wrote. Here, let me re-iterate:

On 9/24/2018 at 5:44 PM, barn said:

Consciousness and the ability to handle abstractions in the way that allows for the manifestation of free-will is an emergent property solely present in humans... as far as existing and verifiable evidence goes. (hence why you are posting here, not on any non-existent forum created by any other creature(s) out there... I hope) 

How did you test your idea?

as in: what were the universal standards that you used to see if your ideas could be disproven? Can you show how reversing that is also logically sound?

Would you say that those animals by solving simple tasks are therefore comparable to humans in terms of our manifested & consciously developed ability in ethics, architecture, art, science, medicine... etc?

as in:

- dolphin poems?

- chimp moral contemplation?

- crow architecture?

- alternatively: 'Scroogle' AI self-awareness and personality, independent of the human input? (emergent property, not pre-determined, has free will

On 10/2/2018 at 8:31 AM, d4d0ff70 said:

so yeah i'm not talking about free will at all. i'm talking about the idea of embodiment, the idea that one is an entity that exists in a unique body separate from corporeal reality. the point is embodiment comes from sense perceptions, and embodiment is necessary for suffering (there is no suffering without an "I" which suffers). so as other animals have sense perceptions, and if the I is intrinsically linked to /cannot be separated from these perceptions then it stands to reason that other animals possess a sense of embodiment much like our own. just because a crow cannot solve differential geometry problems does not mean the crow doesn't have a sense that it is a unique organism. 

Is this a good way to define embodiment?

Embodiment: "Someone or something that is the best possible example of a particular idea, quality, or principle, especially a good one

As in: He is the very embodiment of kindness. "

 

"so yeah i'm not talking about free will at all."

:D, If animals had free-will, they would also possess the ability to "know/notice when they were thinking". I don't think they have that capacity. That would be self-reflection, a cognitive process that requires an immense mental capacity only supported by evidence in humans.

"the idea of embodiment, the idea that one is an entity that exists in a unique body separate from corporeal reality"

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying here that individuals are practically 'brains in tanks' or in other words their consciousness could be transfered into any adequate surrogate in form of an energy pattern and the phisical body was just a 'shell', an 'excangeable vehicle'?

 

"other animals possess a sense of embodiment much like our own."

Would you say that humans were a type of animal or that humans are similar to animals in some ways but they are in fact completely different creatures with unique properties instead?

 

"just because a crow cannot solve differential geometry problems does not mean the crow doesn't have a sense that it is a unique organism. "

An amobea moving away from excess ph or temperature in the media, otherwise it would be damaged, it would probably die... would you say that the amobea has a sense of it's uniqueness and wants to protect it?

Because we can observe life in general responding to environmental influences but yet it's not the same as having consciousness. 

 

 

[RichardY]

Pretty sure dolphins, probably don't debate freewill.

Becoming one with the Pineapple though....... As Mike Cernovich said on his website, no I'm not making this up. Look it up.

Quote

When I bit into the pineapple, the pineapple consumed me as I much as I it. The pineapple and I merged into one.

I wouldn't be opposed to DMT or DMT 5-Meo. Probably would be interesting to have it legal, so could observe the effects on a wide scale. I think it's unreasonable(from my perspective) that its not legal really. Although over a decade a go though I'd probably have been in favor of the death penalty for illegal drug use, kind of like the golden triangle perhaps or N Korea. There has got to be underground human research, experiments being carried out there somewhere right? Why have animal testing facilities within access to the public? Why wouldn't there be something like Black Mesa?

I think personality wise The "I think" INTP or ISTP is the most embodied. "A is A" the least. ENTJ or ESTJ. Not sure what a subconscious compatible personality theory would be. Have really looked much at Ennegram or DISC assessment, I find it helps to read the original author who it's based off of.