Gay vs. Natural Family

[Echopeak]

Warning: This is a long post. I hope it is clear enough to understand. It contains a lot of information and musing to unpack or understand. I welcome your thoughts, advice, questions, or criticism. Read at your own peril.

I have been in a long period of self-work and I keep coming back to one core issue that I am failing to get any traction on. I think that indicates that I have internalized some historical shame or trauma deeply enough that I am currently unable to break free of.

I think it comes down to this-

A] I am a gay man fixated on the ideal of a natural family (heterosexual parents creating 100% genetically related children). Perhaps I have internalized shame about the years of accusations of faggotry in my teenage years, fears of creating an unnatural family that destabilizes my children´s ability to build healthy relationships, and a fixation on the ideal heterosexual family that I never experienced as a child.

Or…

B] I am some kind of not-gay man fully capable of building a natural family but I keep myself in a relationship with my male partner because it is convenient, because I am being cowardly about approaching women, because I have a fetish for intact penises due to my foreskin being removed in infancy and I feel inadequate due to loss of my foreskin, or because I am seeking some kind of self-love from another male that I am unable to provide to myself at this time.

Some relevant history might be prudent- I was caller 3 on FDR #3992.

I recognize that in the call, my partner and I both spoke at length to our family history, and shared more than was potentially necessary. I think we were both just relieved at having SOMEBODY finally interested in hearing what we had to say. Stef was firm and saw through to cornerstone issues. While the show title says otherwise, I never claimed that I was NOT gay, just that I considered deeply that I might not be gay, and had experienced a surge in same-sex attraction.

I spent the next months in continued reflection and self-work. At some point in the weeks following the call, I felt some shifts from my self-work. I considered that I had internalized shame at being accused of faggotry for years in my family, and desperately did not want to be gay.

I am still with my partner today, months later. But I am very unsure of my initial assumption that I was just deeply ashamed of being gay.

I have never felt like I fit in to any gay lifestyle. I do not do anal sex. I do not enjoy it, nor do I have interest in it whatsoever. I only have interest in masturbatory sexual behaviors with my partner. He and I have been fine with this since we got together 8+ years ago. I sometimes have to fantasize about sex with women to successfully orgasm with my partner. I do appreciate the male body, particularly the intact penis. I have some deep longing for what was cut from me in infancy. I have been restoring my foreskin for about a year now. Maybe if I restore my foreskin, I will experience a drastic reduction in same-sex attractions and interest.

I have historically been in two long term relationships with women. Both around two years, though the first of these relationships was a high-school relationship that I believe was not a foundational one. The second lasted two years, just out of high school. I never had sexual issues besides very occasionally fantasizing about guys to successfully orgasm. I ended this relationship after she contracted gonorrhea, yet we had both tested clean at the start of our relationship (besides my Herpes Simplex Virus 1, which she knew of before we ever started dating), I had been entirely monogamous during our relationship, and I tested clean (besides my HSV1) while she had this STD.

My herpes might play into this issue as well, regarding internalized shame and anger or issues with women. My mother gave my two younger brothers and I herpes when I was 6 years old. It is one of my earliest and most disgusting memories of childhood. She ordered us all to line up, and she said she was going to give us all a gift so we would always know how much she loved us. She kneeled down and gave us all deep mouth kisses. She had an oozing sore on her lower lip. I remember being frozen with fear and disgust, and very confused. Mouth kisses were never allowed in our family, my mother considered them obscene and inappropriate. We only ever gave kisses on the cheek, if ever, usually just hugs. My two younger brothers and I have gotten coldsores on our lips ever since. My third youngest brother who was born years after this incident apparently never recieved the same ¨gift¨ because he has never had coldsores.

A couple years later, my female cousin initiated sexual intercourse with me when we had started playing ¨Doctor¨ with eachother. Upon discovery of this by the adult women of the family (all of whom have borderline personality symptoms and behaviors to a T), I was punished severely physically and verbally and told that it was never okay to do that. I found out years later that she had done the same initiation with my younger brothers on multiple occasions, as well.

I am sure that these sexual abuses play into my sexual confusion today, but I have a very difficult time breaking into that without getting very foggy-brained and exhausted.

I have been having intense dreams lately where I have a natural family, but still live the same simple homestead life that I do currently. A wife, kids running around on the homestead, and the day-to-day joys and troubles. I have also been having very powerful reactions when I see children or young families. This experience is rare, though, because I spend almost no time in town, and my nearest neighbors live a mile away from my secluded valley.

I have major concerns about raising children in a gay family, about adoption, surrogacy, or any other options available to gay couples. My partner does not share the same level of concern. Perhaps he is correct to trust that ¨we can find a solution to all of that¨, but I struggle to find any ethical acceptance of raising children in anything but a natural family.

There is a lot more family history that could play a role in this, but I have got to stop at some point. 

Any thoughts for methods to gain some traction on my core issue: gay-but-fixated vs. not-gay-and-capable?

Thanks,

Brandon

[barn]

Hi @Echopeak

I read the full text and also re-listened the podcast (when you'd indicated earlier that you might share later).

I'm not a professional, nor someone who thinks is in possession of the 'right answer(s)' so treat my comments accordingly. I didn't even know at some points while reading, listening what do I think of what I have just read or heard... maybe it's too much to process at first, for me. Maybe there's much more I can't yet grasp.

First of all, duuude! (Brandon, respectfully)

Those are horrific and pure evil depictions! I think people who act like that are truly, deeply, unmistakably scary beings. Humans, but of a type that's really 'something else'. I detest people like those... those evil people.

... (exhale)

I don't know if I'll be adding some more thoughts later but even without a clear hierarchy (usually have), I would like to share some 'crumbs of mine' with you. It's the best I can do for now. (I might get a little bit abstract at times, intentionally letting myself go... so that hopefully I can squeeze out some more from the little I think I might be contributing. Best intentions here. )

 

° For some reason, I keep thinking that moral condemnation isn't a part of your 'active vocabulary'. For some reason, I keep thinking about the possibility that the whole thing is still not something that you can 'touch'. See, maybe. The outlines, the rough shape of it. But not grab it. Not feel it's weight, the texture of it. It's like an ordinary matter but in phase shift now... can go through your hands and it won't stop getting closer no matter if you hold your arms up against it, it moves through you. No traction, grip. 'It' does what it wants, ignoring your intentions in the process completely. Probably even feels naked and defenseless. Chilling.

 

° We aren't responsible for the things people do to us when THEY CHOOSE TO MAKE US cornered, tied down, locked in, point a gun at us, lure into a perilous trap!

You didn't, COULDN'T HAVE DONE anything to warrant any of that crapfest, maaan! And I bet you, they could only be such evil sadists because you were without means to defend. Doucheb#g cowards they,...

That's the past. Now, in 2018 that's not possible! You are here, not there! Memories are of the past but you are living, breathing, doing stuff HERE in the present. Be aware of the distinction of what's re-living and what's actually or what would be actually going on in the present, had you lived 'here' instead of 'there'. Any reduction is better than no change at all. Just try to catch yourself before going under. Sometimes it won't be possible... but other times YES and in those times you'll always get a little bit stronger. Compounding effect.

 

 

° (general idea, go for the gist here, go for the overall meaning... )

It's perfectly normal to want to recover from an accident. Say, a broken leg from a skiing holiday. Unforseen, couldn't do anything about it, lots of pain, the terror during the fall... 

What isn't normal to desire however, is to want to recover to the point, that it's indistinguishable from the state from before the past, before the unavoidable accident. Not just biologically, but also the memories can't be erased, the time spent recovering, limping, the consequences of it, period of time spent under the influence of the event, not being able to function correctly until got better...

This might sound daunting and depressing as f#@+ccck, so much loss on so many levels. And it is. It is, IF ONLY observed with a restricted sight, similar to what horses get put on their head. (They can only see a slice of the world.)

However this is also false. Seeing only but one aspect isn't seeing the whole truth. Not in the sense that those things aren't difficult or unimportant or weren't there... no-no-no. They did happen. They are very important to remember as parts. They were the most difficult moments of your life that you had absolutely no control over.

You're in fact, looking at the aftermath, the remains after a disaster hit. The storm in the reality is over, even if you don't feel like it on the inside. It's never going to happen again! You survived, you made it! Right?

See more, see all there is in your acting with courage and strength and dedication to overcome, not just the suffering it caused but the true achievement of yours that are inspiring I'm sure... because it is goddam haaard to work under such heavy load! How come you aren't cutting yourself slack for that? Why are you withholding appreciation from yourself, for truly big achievements in face of all the crapfest that you were put through? You know it's not fair, right? You know it's exactly what sadists hope their victims will struggle with, right? To paralyse you, to make you believe that you are weak, WHEN THAT COULDN'T BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

 

° Gayness or not, labels are just labels. Don't just pick one because 'everything and everyone should have one' , or worse, let others to choose one for you... it's your life man, they have theirs. They can't know how does it feel like to be you. It's not their reality.

You don't know what to call yourself? Then don't. Forget everyone else, and the social dynamics and the culture and all the expectations ... all the abstract bs.

Start with 'I have no idea, for now.'

Continue with 'I would like to find out'.

Make sure to remember: 'I won't find anything authentic if I get going expecting to find a single, a specific thing. So, I will be curious and observant and I will find the things that are really there, whatever they might turn out to be.'

Observe, collect information BUT don't make judgements hastily... you'll know when you found something that 'fits' and that's that. It is. Just is. And sometimes, you'll be wrong. That's fine too. So what? Of course you can make mistakes. Try to only make the same mistakes once and you're good. In fact, you'll be in the top ~20% of the world's population if you achieve that...hopefully I'm making sense. Am I?

 

 

° Patience, determination like the river bores into the land, making Awe-inspiring canyons! Have a routine, have an intelligently designed habitual attitude towards working the same goal! Even if you don't know exactly what that is, for sure you can choose a rough heading... AND THEN... Just do the next step. Only one at a time, no skipping. A step that you are sure you can accomplish, a reasonable objective, tailored always to what you have objectively assessed can/can't do, realistically. Work on that and allow yourself to temporarily forget everything else. Only that, until you get it. Just that. If it's half an hour a day,... half an hour it is! Moving in the right direction is more important than how fast your movements are.

Celebrate the achievements, make sure to express what you have just done: You got closer! Not further, not paralysed and stopped from continously self-doubting... You beat all of that! You made another step in the right direction! See, it's not just doable but you now know how to repeat it! What's the next realistically good step to make, purposefully, being stronger and prouder now?

(This has been my experience with Nathaniel Brandon's sentence completion, powerful stuff. Check it out!)

 

I really hope, there's at least one idea that you can use! Keep us updated!

Edited September 26, 2018 by barn
bits'n-pieces

[MahtiSonni]

For what you consider their worth, I'll give a few thoughts.  I've listened to the show and remember you.

First, "being gay" is strongly an identity.  Every gay I've ever met defines themselves pretty much solely on that basis and aggressively ousts everything that deviates from it.  Understood this way it requires a certain lifestyle and is associated with the cluster of behaviors everyone recognizes as gay.  This is the reason, for example, why a gay person can't be a Christian: it's trying to serve two masters and simply not possible in practice.

Then again a person with same sex attraction can be a Christian, for he does not define himself solely by his desires.  That sort of person can be a virtuous and a good human being, even though he probably acknowledges there is something awry with his attraction mechanism.

Raising children in a gay environment is a bad idea.  Statistically speaking gay men are the most probable child molesters and their generally hedonistic life doesn't provide a stable, healthy, virtuous environment for a child to grow in.

So it is a choice you have.

You may try to start a family, an actual, biological family, with a woman who can deal with your issues, and, in time, perhaps help even recover from them (I'm being optimistic here, I don't claim to see the future).

The other alternative is coming to terms with living as a gay and accepting that it means not becoming a father.

There really is no middle road, and no matter what you do, you will experience some doubts along the way whether you chose wisely.  I feel for you, as the decision is probably a difficult one.

I will give my recommendation and some motivation for it if asked, but have no intent on pushing my perspective on you.  I am a Christian man and a father who has never had the sort of problem you have - mine are of a different sort and are an everyday struggle, but I digress.

[barn]

to @MahtiSonni

(There's a question in another thread, you might have missed it. Or maybe not and intentional... link)

 

If you don't mind me asking here:

Is there such a thing for humans as 'original sin'? (Can it be a true statement in any way? Do you support the idea?)

[MahtiSonni]

2 minutes ago, barn said:

If you don't mind me asking here:

Is there such a thing for humans as 'original sin'? (Can it be a true statement in any way? Do you support the idea?)

I'd rather not hijack Echopeak's thread.  He speaks from his heart and is asking for help and wisdom some of us might be able to provide.  Let us show respect.

If you start a thread on the subject (or continue one you could find) in the correct subforum, I'll join in.

[barn]

11 minutes ago, MahtiSonni said:

I'd rather not hijack Echopeak's thread.  He speaks from his heart and is asking for help and wisdom some of us might be able to provide.  Let us show respect.

If you start a thread on the subject (or continue one you could find) in the correct subforum, I'll join in.

I think that would look like a good idea in different circumstances but given that it's pertinent for the thread (me thinks) and didn't plan on spending too much time on it anyway.(probably won't be necessary, maybe not)... I disagree.

The reason why I asked/asking:

(apart from me thinking that it's... not possible, to put it gently... ie. no existence of God/s)

Sexual orientation is not something one gets to choose or can develop willingly. Nor the starting life-circumstances, childhood for that matter. These are truly important things to keep in sight, as they otherwise will be unfairly burdensome to a person who had no choice, was hard-done while being defenseless.

[barn]

"c 'mon maaan! That's not very virtuous in my estimation. (looks like the opposite of being respectful)"

-from another thread, posted by you, just after I asked you HERE not there, connected with this-

As I said earlier in this thread @MahtiSonni , still haven't changed my mind.

"I think that would look like a good idea in different circumstances but given that it's pertinent for the thread (me thinks) and didn't plan on spending too much time on it anyway.( probably won't be necessary, maybe not)... I disagree. "

As in: What you want is not what I want. You can accept that or not, up to you. Sorry if that's unpleasant for you, no problem if you decline to add your thoughts concerning 'original sin' here.

Do you decline?

[barn]

1 hour ago, MahtiSonni said:

I'd rather not hijack Echopeak's thread.

What does this even mean? Who's hijacking? I'm confused.