Kevin Beal

Hi Torien! Welcome to the boards What content did your cousin introduce you to the show with?

Hi Stiofan! Welcome to the boards Your story resonates with me. Particularly about what specifically I listen to the show for, and I really like your emphasis on the right question "what is moral?" My Experience With Therapy As far as therapy goes, I benefitted from Stef's advice which was to trust my gut and ask myself if I'm excited to start / continue therapy with this person. There are, unfortunately, a lot of bad therapists. The research I've seen says that the particular school of therapy is not as important as the allegiance you feel with the therapist. Good therapy takes a lot of trust and vulnerability, and if you don't feel connected or you don't think you're being heard, or if you just don't think it's a good fit, then you can totally fire them. They are providing you a service, and your time and money is valuable. I had particular reasons I wanted to go into therapy, and so I asked her questions about her experience working with anxiety and depression and family issues. I asked her if she regarded forgiveness as a virtue and what she thought about more subtle forms of child abuse. I liked her answers, but I wasn't certain yet if I wanted to continue (for a few reasons, not least of which money). I kept going and felt relief being able to get a bunch of things off my chest and I became a little more convinced that it would be a good fit. Feeling super anxious about it, but finding it necessary, I brought up things that I didn't like that she had said, and in finding those interactions to be very productive and interesting, I became certain that I wanted to continue therapy with this woman. I went twice a week for almost 4 years, and I know that the harder I worked at it outside of therapy, the more interesting and productive it was inside therapy. There are things that I like to do that I think compliment therapy nicely, like dream analysis, written journals, audio journals, parts work, sentence completions, and talking to other people who are doing similar work. When I wanted to become a web developer, I immersed myself in the web industry and culture. I talked to other developers, watched what the successful people were doing and I emulated them. I studied up on the theory and debates. I got my hands dirty and went head first into it gaining empirical, first hand knowledge. I think self knowledge is the same in this regard: you've gotta get your hands dirty. Resources on Finding a Therapist How to Find a Great Therapist (Stefbizzle) How to find the right therapist (Alice Miller) A Former Therapist's Critique of Psychotherapy (Daniel Mackler)

Hi Alex! Welcome to the boards That's awesome that applying RTR in your life has helped you out so much. What is it about RTR, do you think, that helped you to come to these realizations and take action?

"We become real to ourselves through genuine connection with others"

"Never wrestle with a pig. All you'll get is covered in shit, and the pig likes it"

Hi Tresor! Welcome to the boards I'm happy to hear about the progress you're making. What is, do you think, that made the difference for you in terms of gaining great friends?

A Definition It's directly experiencing a relationship without filter, isn't it? That is, connected thru reality? Especially in areas where emotional defenses have developed (i.e. where it is difficult and emotional in nature), since it doesn't mean much to say that I'm connecting with my frustration of stubbing my toe on the uneven pavement, or that I'm connecting with the fact that Mars is also experiencing climate change. This excludes the experience of bonding over things which are not true, like us both receiving god's love or any other mythology. Similarly it excludes the happy drunk disclosing personal information to you and saying "I love you man!" and then passing out on the floor. These are excluded because it's not through reality that this sort of emotional intimacy is achieved. In order to be maintained, a falsehood must be continually resurrected or replaced with a new one, or you'll have to become intoxicated again. Examples If I'm feeling internal conflict, and in exploring what that conflict is, it is revealed that the only reason there is a conflict in the first place is because I fear someone's negative judgment of me, and that realization causes me to feel shock and grief, that's connecting with myself. Connecting with myself by means of introspection. Not just intellectually making a connection, but emotionally, my feelings reflect the depth there. Sometimes one emotion is a cover for another, and simply feeling is not enough for connection. One frequent example is with people who feel angry for a fraction of a second before either anxiety of guilt takes over them. Connection in this case would be experiencing that anger, since the guilt is some sort of internalized alter designed to shut down the true self in order to protect it. The true self feels anger. If I'm in conversation with someone and I suddenly realize that I'm feeling floaty and bored, remember where I am and I can't remember what the other person was talking about for the last few minutes, I'm connecting with myself again. And if I tell the other person "hey, I'm really sorry, but I totally was somewhere else in my head for the last few minutes and I wasn't really listening", and then asking them if they felt similarly bored. This is probably the case, and then you can connect with the other person about what it's like in those situations, why they didn't feel comfortable saying that they felt bored, how it's scary to tell someone that you feel bored talking to them, and all that kind of stuff. Connecting with them by experiencing the feelings that they feel, empathizing. Connection isn't boring. If you're bored, then something is not being said that ought to be. Relevant Podcasts FDR353 False/True Feelings http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_353_False_True_Feelings.mp3 FDR352 The Difference Between Anger and Rage http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_352_Anger_Versus_Rage.mp3 FDR660 Emotional Skepticism http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_660_Emotional_Skepticism.mp3

Just an idea, what about asking another question and when the answer is really good, telling her so, telling her the next question is worth $1,000 and asking what her greatest weakness is, and then following it up with, "you've still got a couple lifelines; do you want to phone a friend?", winking and giving her a big grin? Something that gets her to answer tough and important questions without raising her guard. Something cheeky and cute. Letting your charm be the fuel for deep conversation.

I'm not sure that you're obligated to listening to anyone, except maybe your spouse and children (chosen family). If you're saying that if someone is telling the truth, but are a dick about it, you aren't obligated to accepting or acting on the truth of their statement, then I strongly disagree. You aren't obligated to conceding the point to them or continuing the conversation, but if you aren't obligated to the truth, then you have to give up UPB, since it requires a preference for truth over falsehood, and so you can't say that the other person being a dick was doing anything wrong. I don't know Jeff's intentions, but the way I took it was in the same way I often hear it in my own head from a part inside me. This happens often in response to people doing self knowledge wrong. Like, putting something in the freezer to heat it up, kind of wrong. Professing a desire to go north but then going south kind of wrong. I feel irritated by people who I perceive as posers when it comes to self knowledge, and in order to have credibility with myself (and thus consequently with others) a part of me bubbles up from my unconscious challenging me to prove that I'm not projecting, or as bad as them that way, or that I am actually doing something to that end, rather than being some embittered contrarian curmudgeon on the internet criticizing other people when I don't have my own house in order. I don't know, right? But I'm guessing that Jeff meant that people ought to prove it to themselves, not prove it to him.

It's rare that I find myself disagreeing with Rob, but this is one such example. It is an interview. My main point with bringing those up is not even that you should ask those specific questions, but to treat it like an interview. Interviewers don't ask you about what kind of music you listen to, they are (ideally) direct and don't make it their job to manage your comfort. And I'm not saying that you should have a clipboard and questions with a checkbox next to each, asking them in a dry fashion the way a job interview might go. I probably wouldn't ask these questions if I didn't already feel comfortable. Rather I would ask it in a cheeky way, as is my style. If I'm interviewing someone for a job, and they are perfect and there aren't any other applicants with nearly the same qualifications, I still want to know the answers to my interview questions, but I may change my presentation a bit to be more inviting and friendly to help ensure they come work for me and not someone else. Full disclosure: I don't have much experience with this, and maybe it would scare a good woman away, it's possible. I'm not a casanova by any stretch.

Sure does. I think the term you were looking for was Bullshit Non-Apology (BNAP). Unfortunately, I know how tough it can be to make a big transition like that. And I'm very sorry that's even a decision you had to make. Speaking for myself, I absolutely needed therapy. In order to more objectively evaluate my family, recognize the roles I was made to play, learn how to relate to people without jumping into those roles, having someone to have healthy disagreements with, and somebody I could reciprocate with in the form of financial compensation. Friends are great and I've made really awesome connections with people in this community. And I've grown a lot as a result, but in my opinion, it can't be a replacement for therapy. There really is no replacement for therapy besides a happy healthy connected childhood, and since we can't ever get that back, we've got to pay someone to focus completely on us while we slowly build ourselves up from first principles. When you do something so radically against your programming and where the people who've influenced you most (your family) negate and minimize what you say, you're naturally going to experience a lot of self doubt. Having a space where you can feel totally free to explore the doubt, the excitement, the ambivalence, grief and anger, with a good therapist whose job it is is to help you achieve closure, more deeply connect with yourself and relax your defenses so you can see things as intimately as possible, is really important. Are you in therapy?

I don't see how you interpreted his statements in that way. People can talk a good game. Very few people actually take the kind of virtuous action prescribed by this show, a show primarily about ethics and virtue. Just because you listen to this show or post on the boards is absolutely no guarantee that you are the kind of person this show is designed to empower, or that you've processed your history to any meaningful degree, or that you a good friend, lover, or ally. Some people are all talk. They don't demonstrate that they've taken the medicine that they prescribe. Some will even be defensive and aggressive when asked to do that, when that is a perfectly reasonable request. It has nothing to do with perfection. Virtue is not about perfection, in the same way that having made genuine mistakes doesn't make you bad. It's how you chose to respond to the truth and act on it. If you are honest and act in ways which are courageous in response to life's challenges, that's virtuous. Talking about virtue in the abstract is, ... I don't know exactly what that is. But it's not virtue, that's for sure. It's important to have high standards for yourself and others. I don't think Jeff is asking for the moon here.

Welcome! I'm glad to hear that you are sober and making progress The Elliot Roger video was only 4 months ago. That sounds like a really big lifestyle change and change in perspective in a short amount of time. Have you been able to talk about the changes you've been making with people in your life? It was tough for me to adjust to what I was learning and who I was becoming. I didn't really have people in my life I trusted enough to talk to about it and that was really rough. Not having the feedback I craved, to know whether or not I'm saying things that sound good in my head, but don't actually make sense. And just being able to talk about it is important, for it's own sake. In my case, I figured it was wise to get into therapy and recently finished 4 years of twice weekly analysis. I found it enormously beneficial in learning how to be more assertive, feel more secure in myself, know when to trust my judgment and feel confident in taking action toward my goals. One thing that I think therapy (with a good therapist) can be great for is to practice having healthy disagreements. When I first started, I would feel irritated by something she'd said, but keep it to myself, feeling too insecure to say anything, for fear of blowing up, or her not wanting to be my therapist anymore. When trust became more securely established, I started telling her when she said things that bothered me and I got increasingly comfortable with it and eventually I was disagreeing with everyone, haha. Any FDR podcasts that especially stand out for you?

Welcome! Tell me more

I remember being forced to integrate into a new school in the 5th grade, not moving as far, and not as young, and it was very traumatic for me. And this little boy is probably going to have to do it twice, while simultaneously being ripped from his father! This is a scar I would very much like to spare this little boy. Have a look at the funding campaign and the description of events if you haven't already.

I don't think she entirely knows. I'm betting she just wants to do something to help people and doesn't really know how. When you are a celebrity, lots of special interests come to you trying to convince you to push their cause, and appeal to either your vanity or a genuine (albeit misguided) desire to help people. Half of the athletes and movie stars who push some cause probably have no idea what they are doing. They probably just think that they can really help and rely on other people to tell them how. Kinda like how people feel like they've actually accomplished something when they vote, ewww. I think it's more naivety than anything else on Emma's part.

I don't believe she chose her talking points. She even said that she didn't really understand what she was doing up there. She was chosen because she's a very beautiful celebrity who young men lust after. Somebody told her what areas to focus on and then vetted her speech before she gave it. Somebody with an ideological agenda. Older men are not likely to do anything because of a campaign like this, but younger men and boys will if they think that it could get them closer to getting female approval. If they are the best #heforshe person they can be, then that makes them the most virtuous and thus the object of women's desires. That's how mangina's get made. She herself probably does care about us guys to some degree, and she herself may have chosen the suicide issue. It is one of the first things you see when you look up what men actually consider men's issues. Most other men's issues make feminists uncomfortable, because they either shift focus away from women or are damning of the women's movement. It would be interesting to see each of the drafts this went through...

She recognizes that it's widely regarded as man-hating with what appears to be genuine confusion. But if it's confusing, then why don't you look into it? Well, we just must be mistaken, I guess. And the solution for this terrible public image? Get men to be the workhorses to change that. As if to suggest that the people not carrying their weight in this fight for gender equality are men, not women. This is a subtly damning message of men, and it's brilliant. And the examples she chose for the ways that men are disadvantaged are interesting. She talks about suicide rates and then immediately follows that with the fact that a lot of boys and men are often attacked and called "sissy" and have their manhood challenged, as if that's causal in the suicide rate. And I'm sure that it is sometimes, but this issue of men being called "sissies" is always used by feminists as an example of how they support and sympathize with men, and the reason? Because it's damning of men! That us guys wouldn't want to be called anything "feminine", in the same way we wouldn't want to be called "gay", because we must somehow hate gay people, and similarly must hold latent hatred of women deep in our engorged phalluses! And it tends to be men wielding the "s" word. (Although it hurts a lot more coming from the ladies). Forget the man behind the curtain (i.e. the mothers who raise every generation). I don't think Emma Watson is being malicious or anything. I believe that she has the noblest intentions and she appears to honestly believe that what she's promoting is virtue. No ill will coming from me; I'm just saying that this is contemporary feminism under the guise of something nobler. Same old misinformation about positions of power and the wage gap, well, insofar as they must necessarily be manifestations of something sexist. Want to appeal to men's desperate desire to serve women? #Heforshe is perfect. Want to appeal to men's actual virtue? Maybe explain how this is going to actually serve them and their relationships, the lives of their daughters and sons. But it won't. It's just the same shit with a nice new marketing campaign. Briteweb did a fantastic job on their branding, gawd. But it's still the same man-haters and the people who enable them that we recognize as contemporary feminism.

I don't believe he ever did say that. He's talking about universal moral principles. The act of voluntary exchanging value for value is consistent with universal moral principles. Preventing the voluntary free exchange of individuals immediately fails this same test. This is not the same thing as saying that if you have free exchange, everything is entirely peaceful. What he's done is made a bad strawman.

Self knowledge is a strange thing. In a way, you could argue that we all already know everything. If it's true that your terror is telling you that you need to work more toward living your own values, then that's a very insightful and deep realization. And my intention is to try and sober people, since there is a lot of talk about how great it is to have self knowledge and how you become like a superhero of insight and empathy. I actually think that's true, also. I've gained an enormous amount from the work that I've done, but I've noticed a pattern of people starting their journey not very prepared, and when they get overwhelmed they bail. That's incredibly disappointing to watch over and over again, so I just want to help set the tone for how to talk about these things, so that people get that it's not all sunshine and roses. And I'm sure that you already knew that, and that in a way, this is probably not news to you, but I've decided to be a cold bucket of water to the face because I'm just a jerk like that. But I've noticed a huge difference in my life as a result of the work that I've done: - I'm much more socially confident and make conversation with anyone I want to. (I used to be incredibly socially anxious.) - I am much more assertive when people try and violate my boundaries - I'm better at giving uncomfortable feedback and accepting criticism - I have a much clearer picture of what my values actually are - I'm more vulnerable with people I trust - I cry now, during like any movie - I have a much closer relationship with what my body and the different parts of me are trying to tell me - When I do get depressed, I have a desire to revisit my values and the way I'm spending my time, rather than deciding that nothing matters and losing all motivation Others have reported the same sorts of things to me. The feeling of connection is a real rush, too, which I've come to crave, not as a wound longing for completion, but as something really enjoyable and motivating. My advice, on top of what I've already said, would be to revisit your values. It's not going to be very motivating living somebody else's values, right? That would feel to me like finishing homework, or some tedious but ostensibly necessary task, because someone else said so. You can grill me if you like. Make sure that my advice is good. Make sure that I am more fulfilled now as a result of it. But I'm curious. Are you prompted to action? Or is does it feel like too much?

Is it Worth It? It can be distressing to witness other people who start to take the plunge into self knowledge and run away screaming. What horrors am I containing within me, ready to suck me into the abyss and implode in on myself should I keep pushing past these defenses? As I get closer to my shadow, I can feel the tremble of overwhelming torrents of emotion waiting behind the floodgates. I really don't want to take down these defenses I've spent decades erecting and reinforcing. I need the assurance that what's on the other side is worth it. Most people do not travel down the path to self knowledge and they live their lives in relative contentment, so why should I put myself through that suffering? Why can't I be like them? I know that I want a more connected, deep, fulfilling life where my decisions and goals really mean something, of course I do, but you people keep saying that I get there through self knowledge, and people have promised me things my whole life that have never come true, so why should I believe you? How is this not just one of the thousands of other "paths to enlightenment", only ever sustaining shallow idiots for a short period with pretentious and empty deepities, platitudes, bullshit? If I'm going to do this, I'm going to grill you. I need to know that you know what the hell you're talking about and are taking your own medicine. Things May Not Appear As They Seem This is where I was coming from up until recently. It sounds like you can relate. To be perfectly honest, most people who listen to the show, and even people on the boards don't take their own medicine. Don't take anyone's word on anything. This shit is very very hard, and like the Dunning-Kruger effect goes with stupid people thinking they are smart, so too do people mistakenly believe that they have self knowledge. Grill people if you need to. This Shit Sucks, Let's Be Honest The reason I keep doing it is because the idea of not doing is has exceeded the level of discomfort I feel when I do do it. And I believe that's the only way it can work. The idea that I am lying to myself, not living in line with my own values, provokes horror. I cannot continue to pretend like saying "I love you" means a goddam thing without actually treating someone in a loving manner. I cannot continue to pretend that my avoidance of confronting people is a virtue on my part. I cannot continue to pretend that the problem is me whenever I'm too afraid to challenge other people. It makes me literally nauseated. Most people it seems find ways of making it work. At the moment, I cannot. I don't believe that will change, but the ambivalence I feel sometimes makes me wonder. Intellectually, I work on self knowledge for multiple reasons: The more I'm aware, the more options I have available to me It makes me more attractive to the people I want to attract It will make me invaluable to my future family, and help me avoid taking out my history on them I can gain closure about things which have brought me much confusion and distress I can make real and impactful conversation about real things I can more easily avoid narcissists, sociopaths and emotional vampires of every kind But, my real motivations aren't always so noble. Sometimes it's just my own vanity. I envy the people who appear to understand these things better than me, and I want to be better than them. I'm never satisfied with what I've accomplished the day after it's done. And that's why I've gotten as good as I have at the things I care about most. I remain unsure that this is a bad thing. It's serious shit and it's necessary to speak frankly about it. My Advice, For What It's Worth I would have been completely hopeless without a therapist. (I lucked out and got a pretty good one.) I cannot recommend it highly enough. I desperately needed someone to make sure I wasn't completely insane as I revisited all of my core beliefs. Someone to practice being in healthy disagreement with and to help me process the overwhelming emotions I was walking blindly into. I gained a lot from talking to other people who are going through the same process. It's a relief to know that other people are like me, and if I'm lucky, are reciprocally challenging and candid as is necessary to maintain something which is so against my programming. Talking to people who actually are taking some kind of action. I want to feel uncomfortable when I'm talking to someone who's doing great work, because it tells me that I could be doing more and is motivating in that way (I'm envious). I don't trust anyone who is satisfied with their level of self knowledge.

The nickname I was referring to was "Kevo" It would make sense that if you were trying to make some slight at my expense that you would use a nickname as a way of putting me down, and talking to me like a child. Like, "hey there little buddy, that's a nice post you got there". It struck me as weird that you would coin a nickname for me since I barely know you and came with what I perceived as a slight. But if I have mistaken your intentions, then I retract my statement.

So your LOL was meant to be some kind of slight at my expense, then? Like some sort of subtle "fuck you". That explains the nickname... First of all, I didn't say that your argument was invalid because of that single comment. My whole post was dismissed by you when you focused on a single comment of mine. I'm not even sure there was an argument there for me to comment on. Is it this?: P1: guys who are friendzoned expect some sort of reciprocity, and when they don't get it, they get resentful P2: "the fault is in your inability to be direct" C1: This is a problem and it is slimy and being a doormat If so, I did comment on that. I did say more than "don't speak for me", right? And it's ironic that you were passive aggressively indirect with me when the virtue you are promoting is being direct with people... If a woman is leading you on and emotionally manipulating you into doing favors for her, she has to be doing something that would subtly (and with plausible deniability) suggest that he'll benefit from continuing to do these things. She is putting the idea in his head that it will lead to something more. It is completely to be expected that someone would feel resentful when it doesn't happen. I feel resentful when people manipulate me into doing things too. Leading someone on is wasting their time and is something to feel resentful about. It is not slimy to feel resentful. I already said this in the post you are suggesting totally ignored the point you were making. You ignored the point I was making. The reason I focused on that particular quote of yours about everyone being culpable in friendzoning and being friendzoned is that it totally minimizes it. Like this is just something that everyone does. No it's not. It is cause for alarm that you would think it was. And where is your remorse for doing something that you yourself say is "slimy"? If someone told me that they did things that were slimy, I would want to see them demonstrate that they had changed and learned from it before taking their advice about it. i.e. You have a very strong incentive to make people who get friendzoned equally culpable, because it makes you less responsible for leading the girls on that you have. Because it's just sort of this dance that people do, or something.

I don't understand. What was funny about that?

No no no. Do not speak for me like that. I've read this thread and have not seen a standard for what level of honesty is required that makes guys ending up in the friendzone not friends, and thus the friendzone fake. I'm not even sure why this is a requirement. Unless that requirement is "more honest", in which case, I don't know what that means. The whole point of a friendzone is to turn someone into a friend, when they have different intentions. (i.e. they do not consider themselves friends). The problem is leading people on, giving them just enough of a flirty attitude or whatever to keep their attention and pretending not to notice that this is not typical friend behavior, it's someone who's interested in you romantically. This really does happen, it's not fake. Should people be more direct and honest about what their intentions are if they intend to date you? Yea, probably. I can think of a lot of good reasons for that. But to focus on the person who's been friendzoned, that is to say emotionally manipulated, as equally culpable makes absolutely no sense to me. If I lead someone on, I'd feel horrible about it, and the last thing I would do is try and find reasons to blame them, like they aren't good friends or project onto them my own guilty conscience for emotionally manipulating them. You cannot blame people for believing the things you manipulated them into believing. That's bullshit.