Gnostiphile

Also interested.

Thank you for sharing this, Sashajade. I feel inspired to journal again after some time away from it.

@Cherapple"How would you feel about telling your therapist exactly what you just wrote?"When I ask myself this, I have many thoughts about it, but it's hard to fetter out the feelings. I think that fact that I have not said these things to her tells me that I probably feel afraid to. Like I'll get in trouble for being so outspoken. I'm afraid that I will be rejected and I'm afraid of the self-attack that might ensue. I'll add here that at best I think it would be pointless to say all these things to her, as I feel like she is quite content with her perspective on the matter. I feel like this is an issue of logic and telling her my feelings would be an argument from emotion. Am I supposed to feel safe enough to bring my emotions into it without feeling like that will detract from my position? What would be the goal of bringing up my emotions about this?Thank you for your feedback on the email. I was really questioning my reactions to it, and hearing from others is so incredibly relieving."By "our principles," does she mean yours and hers, or her supervisor's principles and hers?"I believe she's talking about hers and mine. In our last session she was considering whether or not a therapist with "similar experiences" to mine would be better for me. I told her that it wasn't our experiences that were the problem, but our values/principles. I noticed that she never asked me what exactly those were. I'm wondering if she assumes my position is that parents intentionally set out to hurt their children. In our first session she said she didn't like the word "blame" because it implies that the person was "born evil"."Whose word is "contamination"? Is that a word that you have brought up with her, or is that her word?"I expressed to her my concern that her own stuff would interfere with our work. The specific word "contamination" was first used by her."What parts of the email stood out for you?"There were many things that stood out to me:"and yes, I'm sorry I realize that I have been blending 2 things"I really don't know what to make of this. It kind of sounds like she's saying "yes, I was contradicting myself", but that's not actually what she says. Why? And "blending 2 things" is not the same as "contradicting myself"."this process"I have no idea what she means by that."the most literal sense"Again, no clue what that means. Why add that part? Either they could do a better job or they couldn't. It sounds like she's setting up a "but"."not relevant here"This is probably the thing that sticks out to me most in the email. Of course it's relevant. If someone hits me with their car, whether they suffered an unforeseeable aneurysm directly before hitting me or they purposely steered the car toward me is pretty relevant to the level of responsibility they are to be assigned. Of course they are responsible for damages either way, but whether or not it would be considered an act of aggression depends on intent and their level of control over the situation. A mother mistreating her child because she has an undiagnosed brain tumor that is affecting her personality is different from a mother who mistreats her child out of convenience."I feel clear and confident that our principles in this area do line up..."A declaration of confidence is insufficient here. It's like saying, "trust me, this will work". I'm going to need to hear more than the "Cole's Notes version" to feel confident that our principles line up."I do not believe in protecting or defending parents when they wound their children"So she has decided to confront her mother about her childhood then? Because maintaining comfortable relationships with those who have harmed you without being honest about your experiences of them is "protecting parents". If she is concerned about breaking the "cycle of wounding", shielding people from the effects of their wrong-doing does not seem like a good way to go about it. Also, she has already said this to me, it's nothing new."I'm sorry if I created confusion or uncertainty for you"Apologies that start with "I'm sorry if..." really rub me the wrong way. If she acknowledges that she caused those things for me, why the "if"? It seems disingenuous.Overall, I feel that she has said nothing I haven't already heard from her. If she acknowledges her inconsistency I feel that what she's said here is inadequate. If I were a therapist and I fully realized that I was wrong about something as important and fundamental (imo) as the responsibility of parents, I think I would express more of an understanding of how I was wrong and of the significance of my mistake.She hasn't demonstrated that she understands my position or that she understands where the issue I perceive is. If she doesn't quite understand, that's fine, but then why isn't she asking me to explain more? @Kevin Thank you for acknowledging how difficult this is. When I get overwhelmed I tend to feel very alone and like I should be better at figuring things out.I did not intend to imply that anything you wrote was the source of my upset. I didn't and don't feel pressure from you in any way. I do feel internal pressure to reply to your response in a timely manner, but I also realize that I have a right to take as much time as I need. The overwhelm though, is about the situation with my therapist (and myself), not your responses themselves."Is it possible you think to build the kind of trust that you wont feel hesitant to bring up your disagreements, or ideas you think she'll disagree with, with her?"Not really. I feel like I cannot trust her as long as she has this blind spot. I have been feeling like the money is not worth it for a little while now, and there have also been times where I felt a lack of empathy and curiosity from her. Now that I have questioned her more thoroughly, I can see a connection between her contradictions and the topics she was not showing curiosity and empathy about. I feel like it would not be a matter of building trust together, it would be a matter of her demonstrating an understanding of my position and either admitting her mistake or showing me how I am mistaken."I'm curious whether or not the kinds of excuses, reasoning that she provided are familiar to you. Like, are these the sorts of things your parents or siblings might say?"Somewhat. When I first started waking up to the truth about my family/childhood, I felt a lot of disgust, anger, and disappointment at my parents for their lack of conviction and integrity. I see these things in my therapist and it triggers the same feelings (not to the same degree as I am not dependent on her). It's not even the excuses that bother me so much, it's her refusal to take a coherent position on the subject. It's the way she says one thing and then contradicts it later. It's that she maintains a relationship with her mother while refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the room that is their history, as this is something in my family history. My father would say something horrible to me and then I'd come down for dinner and nothing would be mentioned about it again. I struggle with this greatly today, this water-under-the-bridge bullshit that eats away at relationships. How can she help me with this if she is comfortable doing it herself?"Even if she believes that parents do the best they can, she still shouldn't have said that (speaking as a complete amateur)."I am curious why you say this. My feeling (also amateur ) is that I would rather them say it so I know what their position is. I feel that a therapist's personal beliefs are going to leak into the therapy in one way or another (even if it's by omission), and I would rather them save me some time and money by being upfront about it. And if they can truly keep their beliefs out of it, then they lack integrity or at least concern about me. If she believes that parents do the best they can, then my parents deserve my forgiveness, do they not? And denying them that forgiveness would be harmful to my relationship with them. It's like a Christian therapist refraining from trying to save their client from eternal damnation. Either they don't really believe it, in which case they lack integrity, or they don't care enough to make the effort. This is just the way I'm seeing it right now, I could be wrong. I would love to hear contrasting perspectives."she says that you were right according to some process (that I know nothing about)"I'm not sure what she meant by "process" and I didn't interpret it to mean that I was right according to it. I'm not even sure that she said I was right anywhere in the email. I feel like she avoided taking a position on that."I was, however, a tad relieved when she said that it doesn't matter why parents don't seek out help, they are nevertheless responsible for not doing that (assuming I interpreted that correctly, Cherapple interpreted differently than I did)... I also liked that she apologized"As per my response to Cherapple, I did not find this relieving at all, considering that the cause that she's dismissing is integral to my position and the reason I take issue with her's. It feels like she is avoiding the contradiction she has made by discarding one half of the inconsistency. I am not sure that what she said was an apology."Sorry again about the overwhelm. That is really tough, especially if you feel you have to weather it alone."Thank you, Kevin. That validation means a lot to me

Thanks for your response, Kevin. I really appreciate your curiosity and thoughts. I've been stewing over this and over your post for the last few days and I'm feeling extremely overwhelmed with the situation. I feel like if I continue with this therapist then I risk throwing precious money down the drain. But I'm afraid that choosing to stop seeing her will be based on my false-self. I feel paralyzed. I just don't want to deal with this.I feel like I cannot trust this woman unless she can admit her inconsistency and demonstrate that she really "gets it". I feel immense pressure to make her understand. I feel like she is turning into the enemy. I want to trust her but I just can't. I can't discern what my authentic feelings are about her and what I am projecting onto her.I feel confident about parents' responsibility but completely unconfident about either my ability to explain this to my therapist or about her ability to accept the argument (I'm not sure which). I don't really want to, for some reason it feels embarrassing to have to explain this to her, kind of like explaining 2+2=4 to an accountant.I realize I haven't addressed your specific thoughts and questions in this post. I don't want to give the impression that I haven't read your last response or don't think it's valuable. I've attempted several times to write out a response, but I keep getting overwhelmed by all of my thoughts and feelings. Hopefully I will feel calmer about it later. I received this email from my therapist yesterday. Would you mind reading it and telling me what you think? I'd appreciate feedback from anyone willing to share. I felt confused, underwhelmed, annoyed, frustrated, and defensive when I read it. Email.zip

Nice to meet you too! My name means "lover of knowledge", but "phile" has negative connotations and I may have picked it because sometimes I feel like I've been attracted to knowledge for less-than ideal reasons. I've been considering changing it, but the name I want is taken. Wait a minute... you added a period to the end of yours. That's awesome - it's like a statement. Maybe I'll copy your idea... I hope you don't believe in IP!

Hi, Chris! Welcome to the boards I like the relationship stuff too, especially our relationships with ourselves. Self-knowledge FTW!

Thank you so much for your responses. I feel a lot of gratitude right now. An update first, then I will respond to each of you.I had a session with my therapist yesterday and we went over the "parents do the best they can" issue again. Long and expensive story short, I now have certainty about whether or not she excuses her parents - she absolutely does. I also have certainty about her inconsistency regarding her views on responsibility for parents: "Parents are responsible for the things they do to their children. I don't blame my parents, I blame the generations that came before. It's a societal problem." She admits that she maintains a "surface" relationship with her mother but said that they give each other "very heart-felt" cards and she believes they have a deep caring for each other. She also mentioned that her mother just started saying "I love you" to her last year or so.She has not been open and honest with her mother about her experiences regarding her childhood because she feels that she is not a person who is capable of self-reflection. She has no problem viewing her relationship with her mother as just another shallow relationship, despite all the history that's there. I countered many of her justifications and excuses but she just kept trying to find a new way to sell it. I asked her if she's forgiven her mother. She had to think about it for quite a few seconds before telling me that she didn't really believe in forgiveness, that it's a false idea. I have to hand it to her, at least she doesn't subscribe to the idea that "you have to forgive". Instead she just disposes of forgiveness altogether, thereby ignoring the requirement of restitution. It is ingenious.At the end she said she'd think about it and try to come up with some other way of explaining how what seems like a contradiction is not in fact so. I asked her to consider the possibility that she is being inconsistent and that it may not be a matter of convincing me otherwise. I felt that she was put-off by my frankness and conviction. ...I can't believe how freaking right you all were. Seriously, before I talked to her yesterday, I thought you guys were fairly on track with your criticisms and suggestions, but damn, now I am truly astounded by just how insightful and right you were. I want me some of that!@Magenta - I indeed listened to that podcast, thanks for recommending it. At about 14 minutes in where he talked about people needing to have a problem with their illusions (ie prefer truth over emotional comfort) in order to get them to see the truth resonated with me in this situation.@Wesley - I think your impression was right. I tried to be as honest as I could about my feelings, though it was hard to stick to my feelings when so much of what she was saying violated my reasoning sensibilities. There were also some moments where I consciously held back because I could see what I was up against. Do you think you could give an example of a possible block that could be related to this issue? I know about blocks, but I'm having trouble imagining what one would be in this case.@Kevin - Yes, being as honest as I could was extremely helpful. Of course, you were right about the subject becoming more approachable by talking about it. I feel much more confident now about bringing these things up with future therapists, hopefully much sooner next time!Would you mind expounding on "ancient, hard to look directly at, foggy kinds of reasons"? I wasn't quite sure what you meant by that.@cherapple - You were right on the money. Before yesterday I felt like "she's willing to believe whatever she wants to believe" seemed a bit harsh, but wow, you were totally right. I was literally watching it happen, her defenses felt palpable to me. The whole thing felt surreal and a couple of times during the session I felt like I was witnessing something quite spectacular.I took your and Kevin's advice and interupted her, especially when I started feeling confused or when I'd ask her about her relationship with her mother or say it sounded like she was excusing bad parenting and she'd go into abstractions about "different kinds of relationships" or how "wounded people go on to inflict wounds in others". It was pretty annoying actually. I would point out that she was contradicting herself and she just kept trying to explain to me what I consider to be pretty basic stuff about how abuse is perpetuated.Yes, to say that I have noticed a pattern of not wanting to interrupt others would be quite the understatement actually. It happens with virtually everyone I talk to. As a child I would get the "Can't you see I'm on the phone?" and never felt that I could interrupt my parents (especially my mother) when they were talking with other adults. Everyone, even perfect strangers were more important than me. @Ruben - Yes, I would say that your "characterization is close" lol. I wasn't sure about the second part before but now I see it is exactly right.@Robin - The idea of saying that to her seemed scary to me. I didn't say that exactly, as she refused to take a concrete position on it, but I think that in itself told me what I needed to know. We made an appointment for next week and I have not decided if I will keep it or not. I am curious to see what she'll say after a week of stewing it over, but I certainly don't want to spend another $100 going up against her defenses again. I am also worried about not finding the motivation to look for another therapist and I don't even know if I can find one better than her. She definitely had her positive qualities, which is why I stayed with her until now (about 4 months or so). At the same time though, I don't really see how I can possibly stay with her after yesterday.I had a queasy feeling right after I left the appointment, but I did feel really good later. I am proud of myself for being able to bring it up and stick with it, not letting her manipulation fog me into complacency. Although I am worried about not feeling motivated to look for another therapist, my experience yesterday makes me a bit excited to question future therapists about their beliefs and relationships. I feel much more confident about my discernment regarding who would be a good therapist for me or not. I feel like I'm really starting to get how someone excusing their own parents will inevitably lead them to excuse mine, in one way or another. If the blame lies with the generations, where does that leave the anger I feel toward my parents? And if my anger is invalid, then my emotions are meaningless or worse, they are lying to me.

Hi everyone. I had an interaction with my therapist that I want to run by the self-knowledge lovers in the community.A while ago my therapist said that 99% of parents do the best they can with that they have. It bothered me at the time but I didn't want to interrupt her. In the next session, or maybe two sessions later, I reminded her what she said and told her I didn't think that was true, that at best it is meaningless and at worst it excuses bad parenting and miniminzes good parenting. She seemed to think about it for a second and said I made some good points. She basically agreed and said that she actually doesn't think it is true that most parents do the best they can with what they have.I asked her why she said it then, and this is the part I'm concerned about. I must have fogged because I don't remember how excactly she answered the question but my impression is that she excused her inconsistency, basically with something along the lines that people like to think that parents do the best they can. At some point after I asked, she told me that I was welcome to email her about these ideas (she called them theories which struck me as strange). She said that the things I was saying would get a room full of psychology graduate students talking.When she said this, I felt flattered and pleased. I also felt scared at the prospect of emailing her about such things. I kind of expected her to be curious as to why, but she didn't ask me about the fear and I didn't press the topic.I feel weird about this interaction and am hoping someone here can help me figure out what that feeling is about. Specifically, I am wondering if I was manipulated into getting distracted from my therapist's inconsistency or if I am reading too much into it.

The reason you haven't found a way to get around this is because you have force on the table. It's the same as with spanking. Take the force off the table, then you can negotiate.

I thought that UPB is something you apply to moral propositions, not humans. In this way I don't see how defining "human" is relevant, unless it is used in the moral proposition, in which case it would be up to the individual who is making the proposition to define the terms they are using. If someone can validate or correct me on this I'd appreciate it, thanks.

There is an FDR feed in itunes called Philosophical Parenting - The Series From Freedomain Radio. The issues you listed are covered throughout those podcasts. I suggest at least listening to the ones with Dayna Martin. I think you will realize that the things you listed are indeed issues of respect. Have a listen and let us know what you think!

Apparently Dayna Martin does consultations with parents who are interested in learning more about peaceful parenting/unschooling. Of course there's always the Sunday show you can call in to. If you have specific situations in mind that you are wondering how to handle, you can post them here and hopefully someone can help you out. Best of luck, tasmlab.

In the vein of personal liberty (breaking free from old - formerly useful - destructive patterns): Precious Illusions by Alanis Morissette http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JcW19pR2xw You'll rescue me right?In the exact same way they never didI'll be happy right?When your healing powers kick inYou'll complete me right?Then my life can finally beginI'll be worthy right?Only when you realize the gem I am?But this won't work now the way it once didAnd I won't keep it up even though I would love toOnce I know who I'm not then I'll know who I amBut I know I won't keep on playing the victimThese precious illusions in my head did not let me downWhen I was defenselessAnd parting with them is like parting with invisible best friendsThis ring will help me yet as will you knight in shining armorThis pill will help me yet as will these boys gone through like waterBut this won't work as well as the way it once did'Cause I want to decide between survival and blissAnd though I know who I'm not I still don't know who I amBut I know I won't keep on playing the victimThese precious illusions in my head did not let me down when I was a kidAnd parting with them is like parting with a childhood best friendI've spent so long firmly looking outside meI've spent so much time living in survival modeThis won't work now the way it once did'Cause I want to decide between survival and blissNow I know who I'm notI don't I still don't know who I amBut I know I won't keep on playing the victimThese precious illusions in my head did not let me downWhen I was defenselessAnd parting with them is like parting with invisible best friendsThese precious illusions in my head did not let me downWhen I was a kidAnd parting with them is like parting with childhood best friends

Hi, MorseI'm not sure that I understand how you can be friends with the friend of your enemy. I'm not saying you can't, I'm just having trouble understanding logically, as well as emotionally. My best friend in high school was good friends with someone who was an asshole to me. I felt pretty shitty about that.This is just my opinion, but the way I see it is that inviting someone to a dinner party and "being there for him" is social support and I believe you have said that the guy was verbally abusive towards you. It would seem then that this friend of yours is supporting your abuser. Would that be fair to say?It is also confusing to me that your friend treats you the same way they treat someone they deem to be "abrasive and unenlightened" and who's character they question (if I understand correctly). What do you think (and/or feel)?