marius

i didnt delve too deeply into your conversation. i should have made it clear that im not talking about this particular case.

I cant say how the guilt is spread, and its true that if you think about yourself(incl how you may have reacted to clear signs of hostility, in different situations.-edited)you have a chance to learn a lot. But be careful with self-attack. In many cases you are just not at fault.

Hello Wiltin. I know you are probably going to take this experience as representative of this community (thats our instinct, thats what saves us from predators), but please try to come back again. You really have a lot to learn here, thats was true for me at least, and still is very much. I was disappointed with a lot of interactions here, but also very impressed with others. I hear about not spanking, i think thats admirable, thanks for that. And the way you were very responsible in making the decision is also a good thing. The point regarding a history of being around mentally ill family members is not a good thing. I would say that therapy would help in that case.

Ok my usage of the word aggression was not correct. But you missed the point which you yourself have made: the fact that force can be used sometimes because the consequences would be better for all sides involved. Now you are going to say that consequences are hard to be defined as better. But you have used the surgeon example by assuming that we agree on some fundamentals of health. And my real goal was not to find an impossible world where violence is the only means of stopping children from doing anything, it was to prove the points i went on to make but none of you are addressing them. For disclosure i will mention that somebody told me that i was hit for running into the street. But if you look carefully i am not making any excuses for such unacceptable actions. "If hitting was the only way to defend your children from running in the street im sure you wouldnt have a problem with it."

"Harmful" is something that is bad and unwanted, which is the reason why the contradiction of a forceful action arises. I understand UPB and think its a consistent philosophical work that is useful for judging moral propositions. My problem is with using UPB to guide action, which is not something its supposed to do as i understand. Which do you think is a more convincing argument for the usual parents: Dont hit because its immoral. / Dont hit because it will produce problems for the child, and youll have a bad experience, and the world will have a bad experience. We are not brains in a tank that think in philosophical terms and truths. We care about real world results and how something interferes with our lives. How much success would Stef have if he didnt bring up the benefits of peaceful parenting and only talked about the principle? Again we humans use a mixture of principles(could be of strange origin) and utility/consequences to make decisions, and thats not going to change because again we are biological beings concerned with survival primarily and growth secondarily. So you are using energy on making humans not be humans. Can you guide your action based on abstract principles and have no regard for the consequences ? Whats your experience with hearing UPB and similar arguments here and your reaction? were you skeptical? i see so many blind followers that cant explain their position here on FDR and then get hostile when their beliefs are doubted. Its not true that those who listen are inherently entrepreneurial, skeptical- some are just too damaged to stand on their feet. "He that questions much shall learn much."—Bacon. Thanks for having patience with me, patience and respect is something new for me.

@ Dsayers Utilitarianism is incorporated into the principle of "aggression is bad" (if it wasnt creating a disadvantage for one of the sides, then it wouldnt be theft/murder) - so you are already using something that you want to disprove. And yes its ok to steal if no one loses money. See what i did? it doent make sense precisely because the bad consequence is gone. Im still processing the real ramifications of "the ends justifies the means" and i welcome any feedback on what im saying here. It is obvious that it has led to tragic consequences in the past, but at the same time when i hear "follow the principle with no regard for the consequences and have faith" i dont see it as avoiding any danger (yes i actually heard that here) Regarding the "bad consequences" subjectivity, it helps to use the actor as the central point of reference. (edit: this makes sense for economic decisions but not for moral questions) So for example if you want to determine the quality of the decision you compare it with what the actor wanted to accomplish. But this is getting too abstract for me now. @corpus what i was trying to do is prove that in at least one instance (even if hypothetical) the principle of non-aggression is not the fundamental criteria, but there is a higher one, more basic. Why is it OK(moral) for you too push a person out of the trains way? its aggression, but forgiven due to the consequences. As i said before im not 100% on this which is why i post. @ christopher i completely agree that the child is underestimated, and moreover i have an interest in what a child that is not broken can teach me about the world rather what i could teach him. But at the same time you cant deny the fact that parents have a responsibility to help get the child ready for the challenges in life which is what i was talking about. And they need to be educated if the parents want to be called moral parents. In contrast with someone who brings a new being in the world and then doesnt have any regard for the outcome. A success story would mean higher levels of happiness (unquantifiable) maybe subject to expert evaluation/ psychologists. Higher income. Lower level of criminality (i dont think statistics for this are a problem to find). Willingness to cooperate and help others. Clearly the method of convincing parents to act differently needs an overhaul. Its going extremely slowly and relying solely on interest/utility/benefit of the parents is a way of doing it. This is important to me because i want to change the Educational System when i get to understand how the world works. And You have to do it from the basics. Understand the reinforcing loops/ balancing loops/ and know where to push. Massive respect to Stefan Molyneux for doing this in a systematic way but a new approach would be useful.

Well the comparison with wifes is in fact ignorant of the fact that children need to be educated while wifes are already adult and independent. I am by no means advocating hitting. And i think its imporptant not to misinterpret the reason why spanking is bad. Its not because its immoral, its because it leads to bad consequences for the child. If hitting was the only way to defend your children from running in the street im sure you wouldnt have a problem with it. So the principle is not the cause. I really would like someone to point me where im wrong. But utilitarianism seems the only method that works here. Can someone point me to success stories of peaceful parenting, what are the outcomes of people that follow this peaceful method? I want to bring this up in a discussion with a parent and see where it goes.

Its interesting that you mention the college/ univ. I think that a community and structure can make you more efficient, but at the same time the problem with univ's is that they dont tap your intrinsic motivation (from my, and others experiences), instead they destroy your motivation (together with primary/high schools) and then wonder why students are performing so badly. Thats a serious downside and if i had practical experience on how to get a job/ be entrepreneurial without a degree then i wouldnt do it. But my priority now is getting on my feet financially to be be independent (FOO usual problems). But again i didnt go to top institutions. Maybe they are different. I took online courses from MIT and i was impressed with the quality. Yesterday i spent about 4-5 hours on building a blog from scratch and serving it with Google App engine. It was very frustrating, and the problems were just mistyped names. I dont have a structure to follow, i think normally you would first decide on the architecture/ flowchart/ names/ interfaces/ conventions, and then start coding. Do you have suggestions (books...) for improving the method? And regarding your logic comment, do you mean the information flow inside the system? what channel it flows and who makes the decisions, im trying to understand that always in a basic-human explainable way. Also, i took logic exercises and books (argument logic) so that is helpful as well.

Some hours of research later i have to admit that there is a lot i dont know about nutrition. (and biology and chemistry) My diet is more or less based on the Mediterranean Pyramid. And i take supplements. I was trying to make the argument that there are some essential substances that are only available in animal byproducts, so avoiding them would cause an insufficiency. Moreover eating so much sugar is not helpful. So you say you took care of the essentials and the sugar? But i would be interested in what your research returned on those 2 topics.

Damn Stoyan you know how to use the internet. How much time did it take to get these skills? Im taking a course in Web Development now and im a complete beginner

Ill get back to you regarding the nutrition, i have to do some research of my own. Im the guy who is into bodybuilding/ we talked about bitcoin, your job and taxes on the way. It was good to speak to you. And yes im working on making a facebook/personal branding. I see the need now.

i second that, btw are you a fruitarian? I saw you eating so many fruits the whole day. I dont think they contain all the needed nutrition. I didnt expect to have so much group therapy, i was expecting for people to network and talk to each other. But it was good. Definetely worth going to.

going to come on Friday in this case. Lians, give me your phone number, ill be happy to meet up. What are you doing on friday?

Sounds like a good choice. Nice research Ruben.

I got a reply from a conference room. NH Amsterdam Centre: 750e for 50 persons. No refreshments included (12,50 for unlimited tea and coffee per person lol). You can count me in for a share of the price. Ruben, i think we have some idea now regarding conference rooms, although something cheaper could be found probably. So at the moment we have 3 choices: Conference room / Cafe, Restaurant / No venue